Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: just gone on January 28, 2017, 10:16:52 PM
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I noticed that my left saddlebag was bouncing and so I gave the MCE saddlebag guard a tug and it really moved up and down alot. I took everything off on that side and I can see that the subframe bracket welds all appear to be cracked. I'm not sure what is really holding it on as the crack seems to go all the way around both ends. It could have happened on one of the tip overs I've had or perhaps it was cumulative damage from the 3 occurrences on that side. Or perhaps it was the inadvertent dual-sport ride I went on last august in New Mexico, but what ever caused it, I need to do something to fix it. Obviously it needs to be re-welded, but I also think it needs to be reinforced somehow.
I have 3 questions:
1) anybody else have this happen?,
and 2) if so how did you fix it?
3) What is the best way to reinforce this so it is stronger, but still remains the weakest link if it again receives too much force applied? That is to say, I'd like to reinforce it, but I would rather have it break again rather than twist the tube of the subframe where it is attached.
Feel free to say don't go dual-sporting on a C14, but I've learned my lesson and I won't ever do that again. (It's a long story, but I sort of got sucked in by a gravel road that I was sure was going to get better..but it didn't.) or feel free to say don't drop it anymore, but that is apparently out of my control since I've been saying that to myself since the first time.
outside of bracket, rust lines show cracks
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Tj7WFDV/0/M/i-Tj7WFDV-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Tj7WFDV/0/O/i-Tj7WFDV.jpg)
underside of bracket
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-CGFSTR5/0/M/i-CGFSTR5-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-CGFSTR5/0/O/i-CGFSTR5.jpg)
I have an extended warranty, but I don't think it should be covered even if they were willing because I'm sure it was caused by a drop (or drops) and is more like collision damage than defective welds IMO. Another question, 4) do dealers do welding or do they simply replace the subframe?
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Damn Marty, that's tough luck. I think I'd try to find a salvage frame and replace it. It's got to come off to repair and it'd would be nice to be able to bolt another right back on. Looks like a new one will be about a grand.
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I have never seen a report on the forums of anything structural like that before. The tube isn't all that large compared the the flange and large area that would need rewelding. I would be worried that any type of repair would continue to leave the frame weakened and dangerous. Best to ask someone who has specific expertise in this area.
Dual-sporting on a C14? Ouch :)
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Proper repair would be as strong or stronger than oem.
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Yep, grind it out, weld it up, spray some paint..
COntact a local welder, or welding company. You can call a local motorcycle shop and ask if they have any recommendations., If you were near me, I'd do it for you...
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Proper repair would be as strong or stronger than oem.
+1
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Here you go.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-KAWASAKI-CONCOURS-14-REAR-SUBFRAME-BACK-SUB-FRAME-OEM-/282047280152?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&hash=item41ab53f418:g:3~4AAOSwSWJXQ4Rd&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-KAWASAKI-CONCOURS-14-REAR-SUBFRAME-BACK-SUB-FRAME-OEM-/282047280152?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&hash=item41ab53f418:g:3~4AAOSwSWJXQ4Rd&vxp=mtr)
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Proper repair would be as strong or stronger than oem.
I agree, but I was implying that the typical home body who happens to have a Northern Tool welder (or whatnot) isn't necessarily going to be able to make a good repair. And I am not saying Marty can't do it, I have no idea what his level of expertise and experience is with welding and structural repair I have enough exposure to such things to know that improper repairs can be much, much weaker than the original structure and could be very dangerous, depending on the location and what the frame is supporting.
Safety first!
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Here you go.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-KAWASAKI-CONCOURS-14-REAR-SUBFRAME-BACK-SUB-FRAME-OEM-/282047280152?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&hash=item41ab53f418:g:3~4AAOSwSWJXQ4Rd&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-KAWASAKI-CONCOURS-14-REAR-SUBFRAME-BACK-SUB-FRAME-OEM-/282047280152?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&hash=item41ab53f418:g:3~4AAOSwSWJXQ4Rd&vxp=mtr)
Wow- $46! That is a good find. I can just imagine how much work it would be to install that sucker, though. Makes my head hurt.
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Looks like the cracked welds are failed oem robot welds. A skilled welder would make some nice dirt dauber nest welds like the one just above the rear crack in the first pic and it would be much stronger than oem. That's what the coonass welders around hear call them :D
I have not had the seat cover off and don't really know what I am looking at in the pictures but I assume from your description that it is the attachment point for the front upper saddlebag loop.
Did you have the MCE guard mounted when your 3 tipovers occurred?
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Good question.
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Looking at those photos, it looks like the tubing itself is cracked; one of the photos that shows two welds, top and bottom, also shows the crack extends beyond the weld itself which again means it is the tube under the weld area cracking, not the weld itself. If that is the case, I would strongly recommend a new sub- frame. Seeing as Gary found one for $46, I cannot imagine it would be worth trying to repair it anyway.
It is <possible> that this is not entirely uncommon on C-14's so just for chuckles, I would carefully inspect the new sub- frame for any signs of cracking before installing it.
A bad event but good that you found it the easiest possible way, and best of luck getting it repaired.
Brian
I noticed that my left saddlebag was bouncing and so I gave the MCE saddlebag guard a tug and it really moved up and down alot. I took everything off on that side and I can see that the subframe bracket welds all appear to be cracked. I'm not sure what is really holding it on as the crack seems to go all the way around both ends. It could have happened on one of the tip overs I've had or perhaps it was cumulative damage from the 3 occurrences on that side. Or perhaps it was the inadvertent dual-sport ride I went on last august in New Mexico, but what ever caused it, I need to do something to fix it. Obviously it needs to be re-welded, but I also think it needs to be reinforced somehow.
I have 3 questions:
1) anybody else have this happen?,
and 2) if so how did you fix it?
3) What is the best way to reinforce this so it is stronger, but still remains the weakest link if it again receives too much force applied? That is to say, I'd like to reinforce it, but I would rather have it break again rather than twist the tube of the subframe where it is attached.
Feel free to say don't go dual-sporting on a C14, but I've learned my lesson and I won't ever do that again. (It's a long story, but I sort of got sucked in by a gravel road that I was sure was going to get better..but it didn't.) or feel free to say don't drop it anymore, but that is apparently out of my control since I've been saying that to myself since the first time.
outside of bracket, rust lines show cracks
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Tj7WFDV/0/M/i-Tj7WFDV-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Tj7WFDV/0/O/i-Tj7WFDV.jpg)
underside of bracket
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-CGFSTR5/0/M/i-CGFSTR5-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-CGFSTR5/0/O/i-CGFSTR5.jpg)
I have an extended warranty, but I don't think it should be covered even if they were willing because I'm sure it was caused by a drop (or drops) and is more like collision damage than defective welds IMO. Another question, 4) do dealers do welding or do they simply replace the subframe?
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Here you go.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-KAWASAKI-CONCOURS-14-REAR-SUBFRAME-BACK-SUB-FRAME-OEM-/282047280152?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&hash=item41ab53f418:g:3~4AAOSwSWJXQ4Rd&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-KAWASAKI-CONCOURS-14-REAR-SUBFRAME-BACK-SUB-FRAME-OEM-/282047280152?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&hash=item41ab53f418:g:3~4AAOSwSWJXQ4Rd&vxp=mtr)
THANKS! gpink...ordered!
..anyway to answer some questions..yes the MCE saddlebag guards were installed before any drops. The front protection are Top Blocks. All the drops were 0-.1 mph forward speed. The broken bracket is the only attach point on that side and it holds the rear shock preload adjuster, rear passenger footpeg and the lower saddlebag guide/holder, the MCE guard and my cup holder. The other side was only laid down twice, once on a soft grassy hill next to a driveway and once on a gravelly paved road shoulder when I was making a slow right turn and the TC killed the engine when i got some wheel spin. My foot went down to hold her up but just found air until it was too far over for me to hold it up. Yes, I'm one of those C14 owners that MOB would say should have bought a smaller bike, or at least a lower one. To which I say..(http://r11.imgfast.net/users/1111/11/35/22/smiles/334440614.gif)
I have absolutely no welding experience at all, but I was starting to work on the situation with Instuctables classes (http://www.instructables.com/class/Welding-Class/) and the anticipated purchase of a used MIG welder or a new HF one just for learning. From what little I know (or think I do) I think removing the subframe and TIG welding would be the way to go for repair...but like I said I don't really know..just a guess. It could be that a good MIG welder could make adequate repairs right on the bike if the rear wheel was removed. Like I said, I don't know that's why I came here to ask the question. Replacing the subframe does seem like a project for sure, I wonder what improvements I can make while I have it all apart. ??? (http://static.acne.org/ipb_uploads/emoticons/default_eusa_think.gif)
It is <possible> that this is not entirely uncommon on C-14's so just for chuckles, I would carefully inspect the new sub- frame for any signs of cracking before installing it.
A bad event but good that you found it the easiest possible way, and best of luck getting it repaired.
Brian
Thanks Brian, I will be inspecting the subframe and trying to have it reinforced as well, might as well repair the old one while/when it is off.
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Excellent! It's just parts replacement now. Even a caveman could do it.
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Excellent! It's just parts replacement now. Even a caveman could do it.
LOL- count me out! I am glad he found a path to a solution, though.
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THANKS! gpink...ordered!
Yay!
My foot went down to hold her up but just found air until it was too far over for me to hold it up. Yes, I'm one of those C14 owners that MOB would say should have bought a smaller bike, or at least a lower one. To which I say..(http://r11.imgfast.net/users/1111/11/35/22/smiles/334440614.gif)
As one of those people, too, I join your sentiment :)
[...] I will be inspecting the subframe and trying to have it reinforced as well, might as well repair the old one while/when it is off.
Make sure to post info and photos of your ordeal, it sounds challenging/interesting
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Excellent! It's just parts replacement now. Even a caveman could do it.
Not so fast, upon checking the Kawasaki online parts fiche there appear to be several part numbers for the subframe: 32160-0294-18R (2008 &2009); 32160-0472 (2010); 32160-0704 (substitute part on Ron Ayers for 2010-2014) Just for fun I looked up the 2015 subframe and it is quite clear that they beefed up that part, the front weld is longer as the front part of the bracket is longer ...that is the slot between welds is much shorter. It appears I'm getting one from a 2008 model. It also appears that the preload adjuster mounts differently between Gen I and Gen II. Regardless, before I put it on, it will more resemble the 2015 version. It seems that there may be more relatively unseen subtle changes than we thought for the Gen I, Gen II and 2015+ GEN 2.1 versions of the C14.
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Looking at the rest of the salvage from the seller I'm thinking their parting a 2010. I could be wrong.
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That is exactly why I mentioned that your specific problem may not be all that isolated after all..... there could be a lot of C-14's out there with cracks in that structure.
I would be careful about "improving" a tube- weldment such as this one. We do not know what steel(s) were used, and we certainly do not know the welding materials or process used (other than it was almost certainly short- arc MIG). Adding a weld to these materials may well be risky and not prove to be an improvement.
The cracks you showed (Easy Boys) appear to be classic structural welds over thin parent metals failures. The failure is not the weld itself; if it were, the crack would be down the center of the weld. The failure, at least as it appears to me from those photos, is actually the parent metal (the tubing itself) fracturing along the edge of the weld in what is called the HAZ (heat affected zone). Believe it or not, this is the most crucial part of any structural weld assuming normal welding failures, such as hydrogen embrittlement, have been eliminated in the first place by the welding process. What you are seeing is the tubing failing because all of the stress from the mounting plates is concentrated along an extremely narrow space due to being confined by the weld itself. In other words, the tubing AND the weld bead cannot move because they are too rigid (Boys!) so all flexure must happen at the edge of the weld(s). A classic failure- just ask Honda :-)
Again, my suggestion would be to buy another sub- frame and inspect it carefully and then just use it as stock. If you really feel you must reinforce the weldment, I would suggest putting small plates over the weld beads so that the new welds do not touch the original welds at all.
I am not faulting your thinking here Marty, just saying that I think this is one of those situations where making it 'better' will make it worse. Sort of like adding a whole lot of reinforcing steel to the deck of a suspension bridge to stiffen it (Easy!) only to find out that in doing so the cables and cable anchor points have now been overloaded with dead weight. The deck will absolutely be stronger but it may then rest on the bottom of the water it used to span....
Brian
Not so fast, upon checking the Kawasaki online parts fiche there appear to be several part numbers for the subframe: 32160-0294-18R (2008 &2009); 32160-0472 (2010); 32160-0704 (substitute part on Ron Ayers for 2010-2014) Just for fun I looked up the 2015 subframe and it is quite clear that they beefed up that part, the front weld is longer as the front part of the bracket is longer ...that is the slot between welds is much shorter. It appears I'm getting one from a 2008 model. It also appears that the preload adjuster mounts differently between Gen I and Gen II. Regardless, before I put it on, it will more resemble the 2015 version. It seems that there may be more relatively unseen subtle changes than we thought for the Gen I, Gen II and 2015+ GEN 2.1 versions of the C14.
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Again, my suggestion would be to buy another sub- frame and inspect it carefully and then just use it as stock. If you really feel you must reinforce the weldment, I would suggest putting small plates over the weld beads so that the new welds do not touch the original welds at all.
I am not faulting your thinking here Marty, just saying that I think this is one of those situations where making it 'better' will make it worse.
Thanks Brian. So you think filling the gap between welds with more steel would be bad? It would no doubt have the same problem as the current welds but there would be more of it at least perhaps with small air gaps at each end so as not to touch either current weld ( they would probably get thermally touched). The only other thing I can think of is a slight triangulation piece from the back of the tube to the bottom of the bracket. :-\
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I think welding over the weld would be less than desirable.
Again, if you really think you have to strengthen the weldment, I would suggest adding something like 1/2" to 3/4" wide strips, directly over the welds, and welding these new strips to the tube and tabs directly without involving the original welds. Even short pieces will go a long way to reinforcing what is there, maybe 2) pieces 1" long each, at each end of the tab (or wherever they have to be to avoid them interfering with anything on the bike).
Brian
Thanks Brian. So you think filling the gap between welds with more steel would be bad? It would no doubt have the same problem as the current welds but there would be more of it at least perhaps with small air gaps at each end so as not to touch either current weld ( they would probably get thermally touched). The only other thing I can think of is a slight triangulation piece from the back of the tube to the bottom of the bracket. :-\
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I think welding over the weld would be less than desirable.
Agreed, I was thinking in between the current welds on the replacement sub frame. That is if the current bracket is pictured as a stretched out U shape with welds at the top of the U then filling the middle with new steel welded at the top (subframe) and the bottom (bracket) would make the bracket look more like a numeral 3 laying on it's back with a thickened middle member (WHOA! boys. a big easy boys! here.) No matter the heat sink used, I imagine the existing welds would be thermally touched but not actually touched by the new welding. Anyway that's what I'm thinking now, I'll see if I can find any local welders with motorcycle frame building experience to assist me.
Rest assured Brian, I'm giving much weight to what you are telling me. After my experience with the 12 volt freezer hooked up to a Veskimo debacle, I've learned my lesson.
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Marty,
As I get older, and weaker, I feel ike this bike is getting bigger and heavier each year....
So don't feel bad, when I bought mine I could roll it around and uphill easily, now simply moving it around and out of the garage has me sweating bullets about dropping it.... heheheh
As for welding, from the looks of those fractures, I would have no issue grinding and rewelding them all with a TIG machine and good rod, I don't think it looks as bad as it is assumed. I would not MIG weld it with a home use tabletop wire welder, with flux wire tho, it would just spatter and not get good penetration...
R&R is best.. now I have to look at mine, as I have my trailer hitch tied in there.....argggggggh
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The problem is not heating the original welds, it is the admixture of different metals; there are at least two there now, the parent metal(s) (they may be different) along with the weld. It is the area of the parent metal where it actually mates (Easy!) with the parent material, this is called the admixture. The area right next to this on the parent side is the HAZ, which is where I believe your weldment has failed. What I would not do is put more or replacement weld(s) into these areas (admixture, HAZ) 'cause it is not likely to create a sound metallurgical bond or material.
There is a lot going on when steel is welded and a lot of it is not desirable. Modern (post WWII) welding can be stronger than the parent material but unless the process is closely controlled and the metallurgy is understood (this is the part where we do not know what the steel(s) Kawasaki used nor the welding material or process comes in) it is not something that happens routinely.
As I said, I would add straps that straddle the original welds just to keep away from them if adding anything to the existing weldment. As far as the method, I would suggest MIG (short arc) as opposed to TIG. MIG generally does less damage to the parent material, especially at the joint of the two (parent metal and weld). TIG is a fine process but because each part of the process is seperated (heating, puddle control, filler metal added) and varies with the welder, it is unfortunately common to over-penetrate (a big Easy Boys on this one). TIG works best when both materials are the same along with the filler rod, if used, and the welder knows how to crater- out properly to avoid shrinkage cracking.
Another entirely different process to consider is brazing. Often considered 'inferior' to welding, it actually is very tolerant of variables and makes an excellent joint between two pieces of steel, often competing with a good weld and almost always bettering a [less than good] weld. This only applies to low carbon steels but we can safely assume the entire frame is made of that on anything like a motorcycle. And brazing is something easily done with nothing more than a fuel / oxygen torch, a filler rod of bronze and some flux. Worth considering IMO.
And finally, if you can find someone that has a DC welder and is competent with stick welding, grinding out the old weld and putting a pair of beads in with 7018 rod is probably the best way to 'shotgun' all the welding and metallurgical considerations; this rod yields a strong, exceedingly tough weld that is compatible with virtually all weldable steels, plus it is extremely tolerant of variations in the welding process. If you do not believe me, ask Electric Boat.... ;D
Brian
Agreed, I was thinking in between the current welds on the replacement sub frame. That is if the current bracket is pictured as a stretched out U shape with welds at the top of the U then filling the middle with new steel welded at the top (subframe) and the bottom (bracket) would make the bracket look more like a numeral 3 laying on it's back with a thickened middle member (WHOA! boys. a big easy boys! here.) No matter the heat sink used, I imagine the existing welds would be thermally touched but not actually touched by the new welding. Anyway that's what I'm thinking now, I'll see if I can find any local welders with motorcycle frame building experience to assist me.
Rest assured Brian, I'm giving much weight to what you are telling me. After my experience with the 12 volt freezer hooked up to a Veskimo debacle, I've learned my lesson.
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Thanks for all the info Brian!!!!! You've given me a couple of good options there it seems for not screwing up the existing metal.
... now I have to look at mine, as I have my trailer hitch tied in there.....argggggggh
Good point MOB, I hadn't thought of that. You're probably in good shape since my problems most likely came from side loads and your hitch probably causes loads at a right angle to where mine do. Still others with hitches that might have just cranked the bolts without noticing if any side loads (from say bad fitment of the hitch hardware) were being applied could have started the cracking process.
I've seen several photos of people strapping their bikes down to trailers using the MCE saddlebag guards which could cause the same problems. Might also be a good idea for pillion passengers weighing more than 160 lbs (or so +/-?) to be cautioned from standing on the passenger foot pegs when mounting the bike. ;D
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Dear god you all are overthinking this. If you can get a replacement go $50, do it. But I'd have zero problem grinding the mig weld out, inspecting the tube and re welding the tab. It's not structural. It's a mounting bracket...(provided the base tube isn't cracked.)
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Dear god you all are overthinking this. If you can get a replacement go $50, do it. But I'd have zero problem grinding the mig weld out, inspecting the tube and re welding the tab. It's not structural. It's a mounting bracket...(provided the base tube isn't cracked.)
Really , I agree
I have mig, tig , arc, yes I can weld , my full time mechanic can weld , but I have a old employee that REALLY knows how to weld, multiple certifications , he comes over on Saturdays
when you see a weld from a REAL professional it is NOT built up like that , that is a machine weld , a real good weld is much flatter, penetration is KEY and you can always make extra passes, BUT a real strong weld
is a ARC weld with better metal than a mig , which is soft steel. To me proper penetration never happen (BDF easy girls)