Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: kzz1king on December 22, 2016, 12:50:37 PM
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Well after researching, reading all I could here and elsewhere, and bought a used set of the videos I started taking it apart. I have the crash bars and most of the plastic when I started to reconsider.I have a lot of time (long winters here) and a heated shop. I am pretty mechanically inclined and do all my own maintenance on past bikes.
It comes down to trusting another human being. I bought the bike used sight unseen. The seller was very upfront, did maintenance himself. The shop manual came with the bike and had a paper of the gaps. I called the PO and he said he would not check them for a while yet. I can tell with the farkles he has added (cruise, steibel horn, crash bars, headlight modulator, extra fuse box) that he has worked on the bike. 41,000 on it now. I am trying to talk myself out of it! ? ???
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I am trying to talk myself out of it! ? ???
Strictly answering your question? Yes.
My advice: nothing wrong with it, listen to your self.
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It comes down to trusting another human being.
Yep, or a dealership. Both can be difficult with something that is complicated, costs a lot of money in labor, and can be partially or 100% faked without any outward sign or proof of work.
I am trying to talk myself out of it! ? ???
Like Martin said- sounds a lot like you are trying to talk yourself out of it and maybe you should listen to yourself. But if you start hearing voices in your head and start talking to yourself, then maybe you should stop listening to yourself. :)
BTW- thanks for posting the sheet with the mileage and clearances. Although "your experience may vary", it is not uncommon to see such maps that show no (or little) adjustment necessary at the recommended interval. Is the sheet true? Who knows! We can't answer that. Who is a "PO"? If you trust the sheet, then you absolutely should not check them again anytime soon. If you don't trust it, then it is past time, but not insane.
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tough call...
you mentioned talking to the OP, did he say he adjusted them, or merely inspected and those figures were what he measured at the time?
2 years, and 10k miles have been put on since that map you showed, and seeing as they only measured to 3 decimal places, who knows?
did they jamb a .005" feeler in and say it was .005", or was it a slip fit?
makes a big difference, especially with them all sitting at that low end on intakes.
the exhaust side looks ok, but then again, things change.
I used feeler stock and measured mine to 4 decimal places also
I did my initial inspection, and decided to stretch a bit longer, and when I did the second inspect about 8k later, the following spring, I had a substantial group of them that were at or below the min limits... which surprised me somewhat...
I you have the time, and a nice heated workspace, it's not a bad project... and come springtime you'll be ready to roll without interruption... for a god long time.
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tough call...
you mentioned talking to the OP, did he say he adjusted them, or merely inspected and those figures were what he measured at the time?
2 years, and 10k miles have been put on since that map you showed, and seeing as they only measured to 3 decimal places, who knows?
did they jamb a .005" feeler in and say it was .005", or was it a slip fit?
makes a big difference, especially with them all sitting at that low end on intakes.
the exhaust side looks ok, but then again, things change.
I used feeler stock and measured mine to 4 decimal places also
I did my initial inspection, and decided to stretch a bit longer, and when I did the second inspect about 8k later, the following spring, I had a substantial group of them that were at or below the min limits... which surprised me somewhat...
I you have the time, and a nice heated workspace, it's not a bad project... and come springtime you'll be ready to roll without interruption... for a god long time.
Some good points. The guy said he just checked clearance. The other thing is he never new what the bike would do. I on the other hand like to wring it out now and again so that may increase wear. I also need to do the o ring fix. I also figured that when I am done I most likely will never do it again.Being I have everything ready to go I think I will do it. Stuff like that tends to hang in the back of my mind and nag me. I want happy valves when I hit the redline ;D
Wayne
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Believe it or not I have been wrong before ;)
Strictly answering your question? Yes.
My advice: nothing wrong with it, listen to your self.
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The sheet came in the manual. The PO did it so I cant vouch for the it.
Wayne
BTW- thanks for posting the sheet with the mileage and clearances. Although "your experience may vary", it is not uncommon to see such maps that show no (or little) adjustment necessary at the recommended interval. Is the sheet true? Who knows! We can't answer that. Who is a "PO"? If you trust the sheet, then you absolutely should not check them again anytime soon. If you don't trust it, then it is past time, but not insane.
[/quote]
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The other thing is he never new what the bike would do. I on the other hand like to wring it out now and again so that may increase wear.
I actually think it is good for an engine to be pushed to high revs every now and then... if not more often. Maybe to keep things operational, clear out deposits and such? Of course, that is just a belief with probably no easy empirical evidence.... but I don't care because it is a great excuse to zoom to 120MPH in lower gears which is FUN! :)
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Believe it or not I have been wrong before ;)
:yikes:
I actually think it is good for an engine to be pushed to high revs every now and then... if not more often. Maybe to keep things operational, clear out deposits and such? Of course, that is just a belief with probably no easy empirical evidence.... but I don't care because it is a great excuse to zoom to 120MPH in lower gears which is FUN! :)
That's what the Kawi tech said to me at the last valve adjust..
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I actually think it is good for an engine to be pushed to high revs every now and then... if not more often. Maybe to keep things operational, clear out deposits and such? Of course, that is just a belief with probably no easy empirical evidence.... but I don't care because it is a great excuse to zoom to 120MPH in lower gears which is FUN! :)
:thumbs: Agreed
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Works for me! Mine should last forever then!
I actually think it is good for an engine to be pushed to high revs every now and then... if not more often. Maybe to keep things operational, clear out deposits and such? Of course, that is just a belief with probably no easy empirical evidence.... but I don't care because it is a great excuse to zoom to 120MPH in lower gears which is FUN! :)
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Good for it, bad for it, I'm gonna do it either way. That's what I bought it for.
But I believe they make them so they can run them for days at redline with no harm. With fresh oil and filter and warmed up appropriately, of course.
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I wonder what oil would be best for multi- day, redline running?
:-)
Brian
Good for it, bad for it, I'm gonna do it either way. That's what I bought it for.
But I believe they make them so they can run them for days at redline with no harm. With fresh oil and filter and warmed up appropriately, of course.
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I wonder what oil would be best for multi- day, redline running?
:-)
Brian
Amsoil, no doubt.
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Amsoil, no doubt.
Hi,
Yep! Ha!
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I wonder what oil would be best for multi- day, redline running? :-)
OMG! Noooooooooooooo!!!!!
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Well after researching, reading all I could here and elsewhere, and bought a used set of the videos I started taking it apart. I have the crash bars and most of the plastic when I started to reconsider.I have a lot of time (long winters here) and a heated shop. I am pretty mechanically inclined and do all my own maintenance on past bikes.
It comes down to trusting another human being. I bought the bike used sight unseen. The seller was very upfront, did maintenance himself. The shop manual came with the bike and had a paper of the gaps. I called the PO and he said he would not check them for a while yet. I can tell with the farkles he has added (cruise, steibel horn, crash bars, headlight modulator, extra fuse box) that he has worked on the bike. 41,000 on it now. I am trying to talk myself out of it! ? ???
You say you have plenty of time
You say you have a heated clean area to work in
You say it is a new to you purchase and the information supplied is questionable at best
You say you have mechanical aptitude
You say you have the service manual
Get to doing the proper adjustment already........ there is absolutely no reason not to!
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I wonder what oil would be best for multi- day, redline running?
:-)
Brian
Trouble maker!!! :rotflmao:
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Almost to the fun part. It is obvious the PO has been in there before. A couple of missing bolts in the fairing stays, a zip tied stick coil connection and a leaky valve cover. This is a pain in the kiester! I have determined that naked C14 will never be too popular.
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Thank you very much for that for that pic. I never realized how much room you would have if the radiator was out! It will definitely be removed my next adjustment, by that time the coolant will need to be changed anyway! Installing that black plastic shield front/center was a real pain with the radiator still there.
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Thanks for talking me into it MOB. 6 valves are out of spec and the rest are at minimum. Most have changed since the PO checked them. I am really glad I checked. Now to study up on cam removal.
Wayne
uote author=MAN OF BLUES link=topic=22047.msg273720#msg273720 date=1482445788]
tough call...
you mentioned talking to the OP, did he say he adjusted them, or merely inspected and those figures were what he measured at the time?
2 years, and 10k miles have been put on since that map you showed, and seeing as they only measured to 3 decimal places, who knows?
did they jamb a .005" feeler in and say it was .005", or was it a slip fit?
makes a big difference, especially with them all sitting at that low end on intakes.
the exhaust side looks ok, but then again, things change.
I used feeler stock and measured mine to 4 decimal places also
I did my initial inspection, and decided to stretch a bit longer, and when I did the second inspect about 8k later, the following spring, I had a substantial group of them that were at or below the min limits... which surprised me somewhat...
I you have the time, and a nice heated workspace, it's not a bad project... and come springtime you'll be ready to roll without interruption... for a god long time.
[/quote]
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Have a question. What does one use to torque the valve cover down? Not there yet but I dont think there is room in there for either of my torque wrenches.
What I have learned so far.
A lot of stuff to get to the cams.
Removing the radiator and front fender were well worth the time.
After 2 C10's I was pleasently surprised at how easy the valve cover comes out!
Mine isn't one of the bikes that didnt need any adjustment :)
Have a ways to go. My try and get some shim stock and remeasure before I pull cams.
Wayne
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After 2 C10's I was pleasently surprised at how easy the valve cover comes out!
My previous bike was naked, a ZRX. GETTING to most everything was easy- you could see it all. But the valve cover? Ug!!!! There was just no clearance. There was one and only one exact way it had to go in or it could not clear the frame. It took two of us probably 10+ minutes to get it back on! Had they just give a few more mm clearance, it would have been a piece of cake. So not everything is how it appears, sometimes.
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I just tightened them by hand. My torque wrench would reach some but not all so I guess I could have torqued the ones that I could reach, use them as guides and tighten the rest by hand as close to the 'torqued' ones as possible. All of that said, it is not a critical area and it does have a positive stop so tightening by hand seems more than good enough. All IMO of course.
Brian
Have a question. What does one use to torque the valve cover down? Not there yet but I dont think there is room in there for either of my torque wrenches.
What I have learned so far.
A lot of stuff to get to the cams.
Removing the radiator and front fender were well worth the time.
After 2 C10's I was pleasently surprised at how easy the valve cover comes out!
Mine isn't one of the bikes that didnt need any adjustment :)
Have a ways to go. My try and get some shim stock and remeasure before I pull cams.
Wayne
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I wonder what oil would be best for multi- day, redline running?
:-)
Brian
Amsoil, no doubt.
OH you guys...... :stirpot:
...now cut that out! :battle:
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Well actually, I was waiting for someone to specify..... wait for it..... Redline. You know, for 'multi- day, red-line running', which was the original thought. But I guess either no one caught that one or did not bother to bat the ball back over the net.
So I can finish this off myself (Easy Boys!): what is the best oil for running an engine at the redline? Why I would suspect Redline oil, available at: https://www.redlineoil.com/ (https://www.redlineoil.com/) I mean gueze guize, it kinda' follows, right?
Brian
OH you guys...... :stirpot:
...now cut that out! :battle:
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oh, boy... just when I thought I'm done learning English :banghead:
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oh, boy... just when I thought I'm done learning English :banghead:
English is an insane language. I don't think anyone is ever done learning it. At least it is sublime.
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I mean gueze guize, it kinda' follows, right?
Oh groan.
(...but I did smile for a fleeting second before the groan came out. ;) ;) OK, maybe it was two winks instead of a fleeting second.)
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Well, English is my first language, my hair is mostly white and I know I am not done learning it....
Then again, there are some nice things about English: there is no gender in the language, which native English speakers find downright puzzling when studying other languages (I mean really, why does a street have a gender?). There is generally only one state in English, as opposed to the 'du' and 'sie' of German, for example, so no confusion there. And we do not separate the same word into a verb and a noun depending on spelling..... well, the English do but we Americans do not (practice and practise are the same words but one is a noun and the other a verb in British English).
Sorry, this is OFFTOPIC. The original topic was oil, right? Wait, I think the original topic was...... oh yeah, valve adjustment! Put me down for a 'YEA' on valve adjustments, I am definitely for them, although my actual vote has to be pushed through the Electrical college before we know how much is it really worth.
Monday morning, recovering from house guests and a nasty cold. Bored. So you people get a little of the stream of consciousness that I have to live with day in and day out. Sorry or 'you are welcome' depending on your point of view I guess.
Brian
oh, boy... just when I thought I'm done learning English :banghead:
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This isnt the correct value for the median exhaust is it? [photo showing numbers from page 2-27] Shouldnt it be .2169 mm?
I've never done the valve adjust myself, but it's been noted in the past that there is a service manual error and that the manual should say:
[c] Specified Valve Clearance (Mean Value=0.215mm
{Exhaust} 0.145mm {Inlet})
I'm just reporting what I've read in the past, but I haven't done any of the math so is .215 close enough to .2169 ???? to say yes to your question?
I don't know. :-\
The previous page says Ex 0.19-0.24mm In 0.12-0.17. The means of the two are 0.215 and 0.145... so there is an error on page 2-27 where is says 0.125 and 0.145. It appears to be a dyslexia (transposition) error. This is in my 2010-2012 factory manual, 3rd edition Apr 16, 2011.
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After a bunch of ciphering I determine which size shims I needed. I am getting the Pro X shims from Jake Wilson. Ordered the kit and plugs from Murph. Only one valve is staying the same. Wanna get it buttoned up before I forget how ::)
Wayne
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It was going smooth as silk until I double checked clearances after torquing cams about halfway. I had 3 valves with zero tolerance. I must have become dyslexic . I needed 2.250 in there and put in 2.50.
I figure with the past shim at 2.275 and clearance at .127 I had a total of 2.401. Question is did I do any damage? Hate to even ask but ask I must.
Wayne
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It was going smooth as silk until I double checked clearances after torquing cams about halfway. I had 3 valves with zero tolerance. I must have become dyslexic . I needed 2.250 in there and put in 2.50.
I figure with the past shim at 2.275 and clearance at .127 I had a total of 2.401. Question is did I do any damage? Hate to even ask but ask I must.
Wayne
PSYes I did turn it over with a wrench on end of crank. Turned easy as before.
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Question is did I do any damage? Hate to even ask but ask I must.
Turning the cams with a wrench? As far as I know, not even remotely possible. You could have huge positive or negative clearance and still not cause any damage because there is zero compression and no slamming on the buckets without the engine running.
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PSYes I did turn it over with a wrench on end of crank. Turned easy as before.
Hope you kept going clockwise on the wrench. The temptation to go counter-clock is oh so high when you miss the TDC mark by a hair. ;D
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I know it is easier to use a sheet of notebook paper and a can to make circles but it would be nice if we made a template for recording the values of the intake and exhaust clearances.
I am taking mine to the dealer in Feb for the first valve job on the newer 2013 while I am laid up from surgery and would like to just give him the preprinted sheet and request that he map his work.
Edit. I should thank anyone who has the computer skillz to do this. I do not. .....maybe I just take the can and make a master and post it.
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Try this...
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That's awesome.
I would show you what I just did on WOrd . I was excited to come back and upload it but it is not anywhere near as cool as that one.
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I had it all written down correctly but ordered 2.50 shims instead of 2.250. I never noticed when I put them in. My concern is that they were so large a piston could have contacted a valve. The downside of not using Big K shims is they are not marked as 30, 33 28 and such.
Wayne
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That's awesome.
I would show you what I just did on WOrd . I was excited to come back and upload it but it is not anywhere near as cool as that one.
I have know idea who should get the credit for the template. I copied it off this forum or COG.
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I doubt you got close to hitting a piston with a valve (or more than one) as you only drove them in (Easy Boys!) about 0.009" too deep given the worst case scenario. This assumes the cams were timed properly when you turned the engine of course but that is always a requirement anyway.
Let us know how it runs after it is buttoned up.
Brian
I had it all written down correctly but ordered 2.50 shims instead of 2.250. I never noticed when I put them in. My concern is that they were so large a piston could have contacted a valve. The downside of not using Big K shims is they are not marked as 30, 33 28 and such.
Wayne
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Try this...
That is from an excel spreadsheet that does all of the calculations.
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I had it all written down correctly but ordered 2.50 shims instead of 2.250. I never noticed when I put them in. My concern is that they were so large a piston could have contacted a valve.
They would have to be super-duper-OMG-way-off to actually make contact :) Not sure a shim is even available that would be large enough to enable contact.
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That is from an excel spreadsheet that does all of the calculations.
You would know ;) -----> http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3506.msg41100#msg41100 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3506.msg41100#msg41100)
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Well I finally got a chance to get back to the bike. Valve adjust done. Now on to the TB synch. Wish I would have ead up ealier. I see where installing the hoses would have been easier with valve cover off. Not doing that again right now. Need to get a mirror, hoses and a right hand driver. Tempted to leave it. Bike ran smooth before and still seems to thoughI havnt had it on the road yet. Lots of snow still.
Wayne
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Well I finally got a chance to get back to the bike. Valve adjust done. Now on to the TB synch. Wish I would have ead up ealier. I see where installing the hoses would have been easier with valve cover off. Not doing that again right now. Need to get a mirror, hoses and a right hand driver. Tempted to leave it. Bike ran smooth before and still seems to thoughI havnt had it on the road yet. Lots of snow still.
I am not sure how many people actually get the throttle bodies sync'ed, but I don't recall a single posting where anyone actually had to adjust anything after having tested them. Of course, my memory is not all that great....
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I have had to adjust every C14 I have worked on to get the synchronization spot on.......Some a little, some very much, but every one of them- definitely worth doing
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I have had to adjust every C14 I have worked on to get the synchronization spot on.......Some a little, some very much, but every one of them- definitely worth doing
Thanks for the info! So it sounds like it is worth the time. I had it on my "to-do" list with the "someday" valve check and was going to research it further when it came time. Now I don't have to :)
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It looks very difficult. I keep looking at it and say no way,! What are the benefits.?
Wayne
quote author=Riverszzr link=topic=22047.msg274962#msg274962 date=1486946205]
I have had to adjust every C14 I have worked on to get the synchronization spot on.......Some a little, some very much, but every one of them- definitely worth doing
[/quote]
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It looks very difficult. I keep looking at it and say no way,! What are the benefits.?
With 4 sets of butterflies/throttle bodies, they must be kept the same/equal. Otherwise, some cylinders will get more or less air than the others. This means it is possible that you can have more power coming from some cylinders than others. An engine that is not in sync will be more out of balance and produce additional vibration. If it is very out of sync, it will rob you of total power. I suppose it could also create additional wear in some way, but I am not sure about that.
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With 4 sets of butterflies/throttle bodies, they must be kept the same/equal. Otherwise, some cylinders will get more or less air than the others. This means it is possible that you can have more power coming from some cylinders than others. An engine that is not in sync will be more out of balance and produce additional vibration. If it is very out of sync, it will rob you of total power. I suppose it could also create additional wear in some way, but I am not sure about that.
Sync is important at idle and low power settings but I don't think it makes much difference at WOT unless one plate is WAY off.
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With 4 sets of butterflies/throttle bodies, they must be kept the same/equal. Otherwise, some cylinders will get more or less air than the others. This means it is possible that you can have more power coming from some cylinders than others. An engine that is not in sync will be more out of balance and produce additional vibration. If it is very out of sync, it will rob you of total power. I suppose it could also create additional wear in some way, but I am not sure about that.
I meant to add the following this morning, but was running late and didn't-
If they are not in sync, it should also mess up the AFR (Air to Fuel Ratio) for all the cylinders. Why? Because the computer doesn't actually know how much air is going in each cylinder- this isn't a car with a single throttle body and a mass air flow sensor. It is only looking at a single position sensor and I think a manifold pressure sensor (which is not super fast) then just looking up what it should to in a map. If one butterfly were letting in more air than the others, that calculation will be off and will affect all the cylinders for X amount of time.
And running without the ideal AFR can lead to power loss, poor fuel economy, higher emissions, running hotter than normal, and additional deposits in the cylinders and valves (depending on if it is too rich or too lean).
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Sync is important at idle and low power settings but I don't think it makes much difference at WOT unless one plate is WAY off.
Yeah, it probably won't matter much at higher throttle because we are talking about such a tiny difference compared to the total airflow at that point. So the imbalance at idle and very low throttle will be most apparent.
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I just started my valve check this afternoon and haven't found the answer to this question: what have you done with that rubber blanket??? I was 5min into the opening process and that thing was getting on my nerve big time >:(
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[I tucked it back and used a bungee to hold in place. I pulled the radiator too which really opened things up.
quote author=bigtremb link=topic=22047.msg275323#msg275323 date=1487983992]
I just started my valve check this afternoon and haven't found the answer to this question: what have you done with that rubber blanket??? I was 5min into the opening process and that thing was getting on my nerve big time >:(
[/quote]
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so I have taken out both cams and measured all the shims and I was wondering if you guys use the middle values ( 0.215 for exhaust and 0.145 for intake) or since we seem to all go to adjust them on the looser side you have used 0.24 for exhaust and 0.170 for intake in the formula to get the new calculated shim size??