Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: rrsperry on December 15, 2016, 11:06:32 AM
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With all you guys saying your Connie's are great, I have to ask why is mine a pig?
Some background.
I've been riding since I was 12 (48 years), I currently own an Aprilia, and a 16 C14. I bought the 14 because I really didn't want to have to choose between another pair of underwear or a pair of flip flops with the single Givi 45L top case on the Aprilia.
Ok, I bought the C14 new, set static sag, (still not right), broke it in for 500 miles, changed the fluids, and then took a 1600 mile trip.
This thing just doesn't like to turn. It takes a lot of effort to start a turn, and requires a lot of effort to keep it in a turn.It may be just the C14 weighs 700+ plus lbs vs the 440 of the Aprilia, (or my previous Honda VFR) but I think there is more too it.
Oh, and the stock BT 021's are pure junk.
After talking to the Penske guys, and the K-tech guys at the NYC motorcycle show, it seems that it's probably just a geometry problem in that it doesn't have enough rear ride height, and the front forks are crap...lol
So my plan for the winter is to add ride height via a Penske shock and lose the hydraulic preload, either gold valves, and springs or the AC 20 kit, and replace the tires with PR-4 or Angel GT's... (190-55-17)
Do you guys think that will be a good start?
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The biggest single problem is the tires IMO and IME. Swap them out for something better and it will be like riding a very different (and better) bike.
Of course sport bike rubber is probably the best but this bike will eat them pretty fast. Some sport touring tires are excellent, most often given the highest marks are Michelin PR (2,3,4 but 3 and 4 are grippier than the 2's) as well as Pirelli Angel ST's or GT's. My own experience is that the Angels are better when new but lose a lot of their good manners as they wear and by the time they are half- worn they start to turn like a tank. The Michelins maintain a lot more of their handling properties all the way down to the wear bars. My suggestion would be to try a pair of either one and then try a pair of the other (whichever of them you did not try first) and find what works best for you on your bike for your riding.
Brian
With all you guys saying your Connie's are great, I have to ask why is mine a pig?
Some background.
I've been riding since I was 12 (48 years), I currently own an Aprilia, and a 16 C14. I bought the 14 because I really didn't want to have to choose between another pair of underwear or a pair of flip flops with the single Givi 45L top case on the Aprilia.
Ok, I bought the C14 new, set static sag, (still not right), broke it in for 500 miles, changed the fluids, and then took a 1600 mile trip.
This thing just doesn't like to turn. It takes a lot of effort to start a turn, and requires a lot of effort to keep it in a turn.It may be just the C14 weighs 700+ plus lbs vs the 440 of the Aprilia, (or my previous Honda VFR) but I think there is more too it.
Oh, and the stock BT 021's are pure junk.
After talking to the Penske guys, and the K-tech guys at the NYC motorcycle show, it seems that it's probably just a geometry problem in that it doesn't have enough rear ride height, and the front forks are crap...lol
So my plan for the winter is to add ride height via a Penske shock and lose the hydraulic preload, either gold valves, and springs or the AC 20 kit, and replace the tires with PR-4 or Angel GT's... (190-55-17)
Do you guys think that will be a good start?
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::)
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It's not a pig.
It's a Kaw.
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Usually the ones having the handling issues are not having enough air in the tires (42) or their tires are crap. I will say that even with owning this bike since day one or so of it's inception I've never found the handling to be crap even with worn tires including the stock BTs. Take it back to the dealer and have them look at it or get someone who knows this bike to ride and offer an opinion.
Here's a Gen 1 undergoing police trials...start looking about 1:45 in.
http://youtu.be/oFWelHXueQE (http://youtu.be/oFWelHXueQE)
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Perhaps if I spent a lot of time aboard a 440 lbs Aprilla I'd think it was a pig also. But compared to my last 2 bikes, Honda VTX and Valkyrie, it's a guided missile. But agree with others, first upgrade the tires, make sure the air pressure is correct, then set the stock suspension properly. Still not going to be a full on sport bike but should be great on spirited long distance rides as it was designed.
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With all you guys saying your Connie's are great, I have to ask why is mine a pig?
Some background.
I've been riding since I was 12 (48 years), I currently own an Aprilia, and a 16 C14. I bought the 14 because I really didn't want to have to choose between another pair of underwear or a pair of flip flops with the single Givi 45L top case on the Aprilia.
Ok, I bought the C14 new, set static sag, (still not right), broke it in for 500 miles, changed the fluids, and then took a 1600 mile trip.
This thing just doesn't like to turn. It takes a lot of effort to start a turn, and requires a lot of effort to keep it in a turn.It may be just the C14 weighs 700+ plus lbs vs the 440 of the Aprilia, (or my previous Honda VFR) but I think there is more too it.
Oh, and the stock BT 021's are pure junk.
After talking to the Penske guys, and the K-tech guys at the NYC motorcycle show, it seems that it's probably just a geometry problem in that it doesn't have enough rear ride height, and the front forks are crap...lol
So my plan for the winter is to add ride height via a Penske shock and lose the hydraulic preload, either gold valves, and springs or the AC 20 kit, and replace the tires with PR-4 or Angel GT's... (190-55-17)
Do you guys think that will be a good start?
Don't hesitate to replace the Crapstone 021 tires asap. I almost sold my C-14 because of these evil freakin' tires after 3000 miles because they wobbled and tried to high side me 2x in high speed sweepers. The best advice this forum ever gave me at that time was junk the Bridgestones and get a pair of Michelin PR's with 55 rear profile. The rest is history and 78000 miles of pure bliss. The PRs also will outlast any other tire too.
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Me too.... TIRES
Stock tires are crap; get some PR3's or PR4GT's when you can't stand the stock anymore and always inflate them to 42 and ride that sucker. When my stock tires were half worn, it did get really hard to turn and sometimes even unpredictable. I now have 85+% worn PR4GT's and it doesn't feel much different than it did when they were new (but broken in)!
So, otherwise, the C14 only feels heavy at under a few MPH, after that, it feels light, fast, and responsive.
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I'm sorry, but buying my 14 in 2007, and burning the stock tire off it, it handled just fine for almost 5k miles.. stop all this B/S about the the tires, he doesn't have barely 2k on them.. they don't show the inferiority till they hit 4k, and even then, they still work...
yes, PR's are superior, and when it's time to switch, I recommend it, but man, the tires actually do work for almost 5k miles... sheesh..
and now I get to hear about people gettting 12k out of a set of tires... which I've never seen either... meh...... :nuts: :nuts:
swap em at 5k, and keep swapping them.. like oil changes.... :deadhorse: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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Coming off a C10, the C14 was as nimble as a ballerina.. Totally agree with MOB on the BT's.
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I'm sorry, but buying my 14 in 2007, and burning the stock tire off it, it handled just fine for almost 5k miles.. stop all this B/S about the the tires, he doesn't have barely 2k on them.. they don't show the inferiority till they hit 4k, and even then, they still work...
yes, PR's are superior, and when it's time to switch, I recommend it, but man, the tires actually do work for almost 5k miles... sheesh..
and now I get to hear about people gettting 12k out of a set of tires... which I've never seen either... meh...... :nuts: :nuts:
swap em at 5k, and keep swapping them.. like oil changes.... :deadhorse: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
I know I don't know you guys, but.. these tires were just ok in 2004 when they were designed, but they are crap today. They inspire zero confidence in the colder temps, and wet. And the profile looks wrong.
Anyway , I'll get a set of PR-4s in the 190-55 and see if it's better. It's only money, I'll make more. Maybe they dropped the crate with this bike and tweaked something, but it's not right. I felt better riding my friends K1200lt sport couch...lol
Just saying
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I know I don't know you guys, but.. these tires were just ok in 2004 when they were designed, but they are crap today. They inspire zero confidence in the colder temps, and wet. And the profile looks wrong.
Anyway , I'll get a set of PR-4s in the 190-55 and see if it's better. It's only money, I'll make more. Maybe they dropped the crate with this bike and tweaked something, but it's not right. I felt better riding my friends K1200lt sport couch...lol
Just saying
Like you, I've also been ridin' since Nixon, and the 021"s will bite you in the ass if you do any serious SPORT touring, which is what this bike is for. Nuff said.
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I'm sorry, but buying my 14 in 2007, and burning the stock tire off it, it handled just fine for almost 5k miles.. stop all this B/S about the the tires, he doesn't have barely 2k on them.. they don't show the inferiority till they hit 4k, and even then, they still work...
I didn't have problems with my stock tires until about half way through them and they were pretty bad at that point. And yep, that was at about 5K miles. They continued to handle worse and worse and I replaced them at 9K even though they still had lots of tread left. So actually, my experience wasn't all THAT different from yours. But people's tires wear differently due to a huge variety of factors. I am up to a whopping 16K miles on the PR4-GT's now, and they still feel just fine! To me, that is a big difference. Maybe at 4K, he hasn't hit that strange situation on the OEM tires I (/we) hit at something like 5K, but perhaps he has.
and now I get to hear about people gettting 12k out of a set of tires... which I've never seen either... meh...... :nuts: :nuts:
I couldn't be more pleased, myself! I have never seen mileage like this before. It really is time to replace them (I don't think they would pass inspection, if I ever bothered with such things) but part of me wants to push it to the limit (plus the timing isn't good for me yet). Since I rarely ride in the wet, the lack of tread isn't a huge concern...
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I am up to a whopping 16K miles on the PR4-GT's now, and they still feel just fine!
Well now you're just verbally poking MOB with a stick, don't we have rules about that sort of thing? :stirpot: :rotflmao:
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Reasons
1, You, and your expectations
2, Tyres(maybe OEM) Bridgestones --- they don't suit everyone
3, Tyre pressures
4, Lack of familiarity with the bike, its big compared to what you have, its a sports tourer not a naked, or sports bike
Keep trying and you will Gel with the bike very soon
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Try PR-4's and a 55 series in the rear. You will think the bike got power steering.
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Try PR-4's and a 55 series in the rear. You will think the bike got power steering.
Just this last week I did this after using the standard PR4GT 50 series for 28000 miles, the 55 series is yet another step up in my enjoyment of the bike.
Usually I keep a bike two years and get fed up, not this one, it's going nowhere without me sat on it.
It's a keeper for sure.
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Better be. I've got my eye on you...
I know I don't know you guys, but.. these tires were just ok in 2004 when they were designed, but they are crap today.
Actually, I think that they've been updated since the inception of the bike. Not sure when but I remember something about them happening on one of the gens..
Well now you're just verbally poking MOB with a stick, don't we have rules about that sort of thing? :stirpot: :rotflmao:
I'll have to check the rule book...but I'm thinking it may not be prudent....poking MOB that is.
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Well now you're just verbally poking MOB with a stick, don't we have rules about that sort of thing? :stirpot: :rotflmao:
The bear could be in hibernation till spring time. Poke away to your heart's content. ;D
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No one has sed this, but do the obvious before going to a 55 series rear. (which raises the rear)
Drop the front about an inch and give it a try.
You may be pleasantly surprised.
Ride safe, Ted
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Unintended consequence, it's going to put you a tad higher in the saddle..
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Ok, I bought the C14 new, set static sag, (still not right), broke it in for 500 miles, changed the fluids, and then took a 1600 mile trip.
This thing just doesn't like to turn. It takes a lot of effort to start a turn, and requires a lot of effort to keep it in a turn.It may be just the C14 weighs 700+ plus lbs vs the 440 of the Aprilia, (or my previous Honda VFR) but I think there is more too it.
rrsperry, I too am a relatively new owner. I bought my left-over 2014 in April, and despite my best intentions only managed to put 4500 miles on her before the (too) cold weather. I agree that the C14 requires much more effort to maintain its lean in certain corners, and it is quite unlike my Ducati ST4s or VFR-750. However, after reading about a hundred posts about the BS tires, I decided to follow everyone's advice and try some PR4 GTs, with the 190/55 rear. They are sitting in the garage waiting patiently for Spring.
The reason for this post is simply to refresh all you longtime riders' memories as to what this bike feels like when compared to a lighter bike. Especially the heavy steering, which lets be honest, is significantly worse than many comparable bikes. I'm not sorry I bought her, but I am looking forward to trying the new tires in 2017!
SandyT
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Totally right..but I've never ridden a 'lighter' bike. All of mine have been heavy weights. Although I've never had issues with the handling because this is the best handling bike I've ever had.
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No one has sed this, but do the obvious before going to a 55 series rear. (which raises the rear)
Drop the front about an inch and give it a try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 50 vs 55 is nowhere near an inch difference in height (which is MAJOR). I would caution against lowering just the front that much. Simulating the rear-only tire size change is something like less than 0.2"?
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The reason for this post is simply to refresh all you longtime riders' memories as to what this bike feels like when compared to a lighter bike. Especially the heavy steering, which lets be honest, is significantly worse than many comparable bikes.
I came off a MUCH lighter bike- a ZRX1100 (which was still quite powerful). And I don't think the steering on the C14 feels that much more difficult or heavier. One of the other many differences with the C14 vs. smaller bikes will be the longer wheelbase. 60" on the C14 vs 50" on the ZRX! That is a huge difference, and it will make the C14 more comfortable when going over pavement disturbances, but will also make turning a bit slower. Most sport bikes are in the 55" range. Of course, the longer wheelbase also means an increased ability to brake hard without lifting the rear wheel.
Everything in bike design is a tradeoff/compromise between competing factors. (Wow- that sounds a lot like what I said in another recent posting).
I'm not sorry I bought her, but I am looking forward to trying the new tires in 2017!
I will cross my fingers for you! It certainly should help some, and part of it might be just getting used to the C14.
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The 50 vs 55 is nowhere near an inch difference in height (which is MAJOR). I would caution against lowering just the front that much. Simulating the rear-only tire size change is something like less than 0.2"?
The 55 is a a 10mm rise over a 50 and couple that with how people compare tires.
No one takes a brand new tire off their bike to replace it with a brand new tire so going from a worn tire to a new tire is another 10mm.
This is why people think a 55 is so much better because in reality they are moving to a greater than a 3/4 of an inch rise. If you want to compare tires your supposed to go from a new tire to a new tire.
You are correct. 0.8 of an inch rise is very significant. Most people dont even realize how much of a change that is (worn out 50 to a new 55).
On top of that most people do not bother to setup a bikes ride height correctly.
There is nothing wrong with a 55. It is just a more V shaped profile on a C14 rim which I would prefer on a track but not on the street.
When I got my C14 is I had to hold it down in a turn- It wanted to return to upright. It took new springs and proper sag settings to set up the bike correctly.
If you do not setup the bike for your weight and the weight you are carrying the bike will feel heavy and slow or if you jack up the back or drop the front by an inch it will steer quicker and feel snappy and light.
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No one takes a brand new tire off their bike to replace it with a brand new tire so going from a worn tire to a new tire
Yes, and that makes more difference than just about anything. There is much more feel difference between a worn tire and new tire of the same model than ever there is between differing new tires. And that ride feel (not stickiness or traction, just feel) difference is due to the change of height and shape of the tire. All tires are going to wear in height, just at different rates. So the main difference is the shape change over time, and that can vary a lot depending on tire design (and the way the rider wore it).
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..... because in reality they are moving to a greater than a 3/4 of an inch rise..... .
I'm certainly no expert in these matters but, didn't you forget to divide by 2? (http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/MaryseDuke/smiley_chinrub.gif)
(because only half of the increased diameter is between the pavement and the axle.)
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Um, call me crazy but maybe his rear preload is backed way off and it's raked out like a chopper? Crank that preload up some and see how that does.
When we went out west for our little 4900 mile jaunt this year, I left the preload where it normally is, but the weight of packing for a big trip settle the back down, so it was chopperesque. That made it stable on the slab from Peoria to the mountains. Once we got off the slab and prepared to head up Mt Evans, I added more preload and voila, transformed motorcycle.
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I'm certainly no expert in these matters but, didn't you forget to divide by 2? (http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/MaryseDuke/smiley_chinrub.gif)
(because only half of the increased diameter is between the pavement and the axle.)
Details details...
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Well, aside from proper suspensions settings (do a search on this site for some good baselines), a Penske Rear shock and AK20 cartridges in front will do wonders. I was gonna suggest getting the new steerings stem bearings from the '15-'16 model but you already have that.
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No one has sed this, but do the obvious before going to a 55 series rear. (which raises the rear)
Drop the front about an inch and give it a try.
You may be pleasantly surprised.
Ride safe, Ted
Clarification;
In my previous post I didn't say the 55 made the rear 1" higher.
I sed drop the front 1" so you could feel the difference in handling.
Ride safe, Ted
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All things being equal, I'd rather raise the back of the bike than lower the front. Doesn't lowering the front bring the front wheel much closer to the radiator when you really compress the suspension? Besides, I can easily flat foot the bike now, adding 1" in back isn't going to bother me at all.
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Lowering the front is a temporary way of seeing if the handling improves.
Buying a tire and installing it is more long term.
Ted
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Tires definitely make a big difference but more importantly is the suspension tuning. I took mine to a shop that specializes in high end suspension and suspension tuning. They measure your suspension with you on the bike and tune it appropriately. I went from having to wrestle my bike into a corner into the most effortless cornering I have experienced in my riding life.
Honestly, I was skeptical going in but had a 'what could I lose' attitude and I have been raving ever since.
In North West area?
https://www.rmrsuspensions.com (https://www.rmrsuspensions.com)
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Did they change internal components, or install shocks, or did they just adjust it ?
Ride safe, Ted
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No parts were replaced. Just adjustment based on rider weight on the bike. Seems so simple but dramatically different ride in the corners.