Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: urbanstyles on August 19, 2016, 02:15:21 PM
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Hi All,
It appears I'm in a bad spot with my '11 bike. Not sure what caused it but at some point between my last ride and trying to start the bike again, all sorts of bad has happened. When I turn the key, I get nothing but loud clicking (dealer says it's the glove box relays firing) and no fuel pump cycling. The bike turns over but doesn't start. Took it to dealer and after 15 hours of troubleshooting including swapping parts off of a new off the floor model, they've determined that the issue is a bad ECU and or wiring harness. To replace both is going to run close to $5k.
What are my options here? Try a used ECU without the harness? Part out the bike? Anything else to try?
Looking to the expertise here to try and figure out a solution. Thanks in advance.
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I have my doubts about what the dealer is telling you.
But, it should be EZ to get a harness on Ebay.
Assuming you can do the install yourself, give that a try first.
Others (more knowledgeable than me) can help you troubleshoot with more info..
Ride safe, Ted
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Does not seem right, but I'm no electronics expert. But I would like to see how this one turns out.
I'm assuming you did not get an extended warranty.
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So they've determined nothing. Check the battery and battery grounds.
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battery and/ or grounding issues
Now wouldn't that be funny.
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Haven't we heard of this before? Really sounds familiar. Let me do some searching.. Hopefully the battery is ok and the grounds off the battery have been removed, scrubbed/flossed/whatever, and tightened back up. The connections on the battery can get loose and develop invisible corrosion so those terminals need to be checked as well. That can cause the battery to not be as charged as it should be. Also have heard of some of the internal ground connections in the harness becoming corroded.
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You got me when I was changing the post, Brent. ;D
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Brand new battery...that was my first thought also.
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There is a ground on the left side of the bike down towards your foot. I don't remember exactly where, but it prevented my bike from starting when it was left undone. (By me. :-[) Same thing, crank but no start.
I'm not saying that is for sure your problem, I'm just saying that the ground in that are being bad could do it.
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There are two grounds that need abrasively cleaned. One to the frame and one to the engine.
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It's the cycling of the relays that concerns me...
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Weird displays or error codes on the screen?
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Yes... FI error and fuel gauge alternating top half and bottom half.
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I'm going to call "baloney" on this. Wiring harness? That's a big deal and it's unimaginable to me that it's "bad" unless there was some catastrophic event like a dead short coupled with a bypassed fuse. So unless it's charred beyond recognition, I cannot believe that is the issue. Also the ECU doesn't sound like the issue here either. The ECU doesn't control the bike powering up.
My guess from afar is that there is a grounding or a power delivery problem from the battery. It may take some work to find the issue but for $5000 I'd do a LOT of checking myself.
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Hi All,
It appears I'm in a bad spot with my '11 bike. Not sure what caused it but at some point between my last ride and trying to start the bike again, all sorts of bad has happened. When I turn the key, I get nothing but loud clicking (dealer says it's the glove box relays firing) and no fuel pump cycling. The bike turns over but doesn't start. Took it to dealer and after 15 hours of troubleshooting including swapping parts off of a new off the floor model, they've determined that the issue is a bad ECU and or wiring harness. To replace both is going to run close to $5k.
What are my options here? Try a used ECU without the harness? Part out the bike? Anything else to try?
Looking to the expertise here to try and figure out a solution. Thanks in advance.
Firstly I would have them try the ECU in the bike they are using for testing in their shop,if it works ok in the other bike than obviously its not the ECU.
Than I would get a genuine workshop manual and start testing voltages to components,that's after I cleaned all the earths and tried another battery.
Unless the bike is blowing fuses i.e., dead short, than they is only one other cause an open circuit be it power or earth in the wiring or a component/s.
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I'm calling BS on all of what was done, or said was done by shop....
The ECU for an '11 is completely different from a '15-'16 model, and cannot be interchanged, the wire harneses are also different....
As are the solid state relay box sitting on top of the ECU, now, with that said, there are 2 versions of each part, based on those model years, differentiating them between CNUSA and CA models....
Simply BS they even tried to plug in a setup from a "new" bike on the floor...
ECU swapping doesn't work like that, if it did, you could swap ECU's with SISF for flash purposes... and we already know about this not being viable.. as the ECU is tied to the bike, via using the KDS3 software and diagnostics....
Total snow job here, find another dealer, one with a KDS unit....
It would take less than 1 hour using it, or even evoking onboard diagnostics, to get closer to the actual cause of failure to start... especially when it occurred instantaneously like you say...
An '11 model, that has not had the battery removed, since it was made, surely needs a new one, and every termination point scrubbed clean... the batt must be in like new condition for diagnostics also, and questionable connections, or worn out batt, will always mess things up...
Very teltale sign is relays chattering, and no starter powere...
Glove box relay firing??? What and idiot that tech is, the glovbox has a solenoid,,, not a relay... but there are relays sitting below that operate other things... related to bike starting... when they chatter, it says "I don't have consistant volts to work properly and latch into closed position"...
15 hours your bike sat in some shop, with a bunch of goobers trying to read a manual on your dollar, is not satisfactory....
They have done nothing.
Other issues like a bad cam s sensor, or other wire of such, will prevent the bike from firing...
Too many things unchecked here...
Find another dealership.... these guys want your $5k...
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but EXACTLY what ^^^^^^^ said...
...and new battery plus grounds and fuses check.
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but EXACTLY what ^^^^^^^ said...
...and new battery plus grounds and fuses check.
+2
Certainly where to START
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Don't forget the earth under the front of the seat,which earths out the ECU and relays which are located under the seat.
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what MoB said.
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Definately what MoB said.
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Definately what MoB said.
You should know KR..... the same sh :censored: t happened to you not too long ago...... Battery issues.....
And that after we had to travel with a pick-up to collect you from a distance....:deadhorse: :rotflmao:
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Fortunately just the battery in my case....but I must admit I shat myself when every error possible on this bike was indicated!! Only thing EVER gone wrong in all the years I've had it!! :thumbs: :thumbs:
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Best guess lottery on when O/P returns with verdict or updates??
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Sorry for the delay...
I had already tried a new battery.. Dealer assures that both grounds were checked. Interesting development though.... The dealer called offering to buy it from me as is... At a STEEP discount of course...
Still no idea what to do...
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Dealer assures that both grounds were checked.
Guys here already told you it sounds like the dealer either doesn't know what they're talking about, or they're schisters.
Interesting development though.... The dealer called offering to buy it from me as is... At a STEEP discount of course...
Sounds like proof of schisters.
Still no idea what to do...
To start with, check the grounds yourself. It's not that difficult.
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Sorry for the delay...
I had already tried a new battery.. Dealer assures that both grounds were checked. Interesting development though.... The dealer called offering to buy it from me as is... At a STEEP discount of course...
Still no idea what to do...
Why on earth would they want to buy a bike with either the ECU or a bad wiring harness even at a steep discount? Uh, we know it's either a bad harness or ECU. But we're nice guys so we'll buy the bike as is back.
What's a 2011 worth these days? My question to them would be WTF?
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As the bike sits in pieces at the dealership with 15 hrs diagnostic time @$130/hr already into it... I can't exactly stroll into their shop and test the grounds myself... A helpful as those comments are..
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They claim they can take their slow winter months and perhaps some used parts and get it going... I the bike as is is worth $10k Canadian.... I can't work out any math that puts more than $5k in my pocket no matter what I do...
I'm inclined to see if they'll give me $5500 for it and I wash my hands of the whole headache..
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Not a good situation no matter what.
Sorry man.
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Sorry for the delay...
I had already tried a new battery.. Dealer assures that both grounds were checked. Interesting development though.... The dealer called offering to buy it from me as is... At a STEEP discount of course...
Still no idea what to do...
Hey, sorry I was kidding around because this happens frequently... please understand I didn't mean to dis you, just want to know what happened..
With the newfound revelations, I have to ask how much they offered you????
Now, as was aptly coined moments ago, they a ppear as "schiesters"... so what in their minds, would make them want to drop $5k into repairing a bike because they bought it for a good deal.....? Eh?
When I was in highscholl I was building MGB's and MGA's as a hobby, a kid I knew thought my cars were cool, and picked one up that was pretty nice, but not running... towed it home, plopped a battery in it, and it started, but died, and never started again... he called me up to come over and "fix" it... he had no money, just paid $700 for a non running car... I was a poor kid that had a talent, and an awesome grage filled with tools...(pops was a master mechanic, but ran when I worked on those British cars....)
I went over with some basic tools, a tow strap, a battery, and looked the car over... not bad, it needed work, and a top, but looked ok.. I asked him his money stuation, and he said he was broke... I knew this car needed about $800 to make it "nice".
All looked ok, but some wires underhood were not.. when I looked at the new battery he installed in the rear battery box, I asked him how much he wanted for it, just as it sat. I also told him realistically low prices for the top and other things it needed, basically cost of parts and bring me beer...
He wanted full price, I countered with $575.
And towed it home... pulled the battery out, recharged it, installed a spre voltage regulator I had, and taped up some wires.. and installed the battery correctly, POSITIVE ground.. like all proper Britt machins had, and drove it for 4 years during its restoration, and sold it for $2500 when complete.. same car, as it sat then, would bring $30k.
I didn't schiest him, I just offered him a price... these guys you have wanting this bike are serious offendors, as they are a dealers minions...
So, we here try to help make the owners experience a good one, these are great bikes, and truely even what seem like big issues, are often very simple no cost things... my advice, is get another dealer involved....
Heck, the guys that wanted to buy yours might have read what we said here, and learned something.... bwaaa haaa.
Please, get another opinion, and hold onto it, at least get a reasonable price.
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I'd love to get a second opinion... But two problems persist with that...
1. No other Kawi dealers within an hours drive
2. That would mean forking over $1600 to them for diagnostics and be absolutely zero further ahead than I was when I took it to them.
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As the bike sits in pieces at the dealership with 15 hrs diagnostic time @$130/hr already into it... I can't exactly stroll into their shop and test the grounds myself... A helpful as those comments are..
That's dreadful....
At what point in this process did you figure to stop the timeclock?
You got $2K tied up and nothing to show for it... this is not good... ma Kaw needs to be involved...
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I'd love to get a second opinion... But two problems persist with that...
1. No other Kawi dealers within an hours drive
2. That would mean forking over $1600 to them for diagnostics and be absolutely zero further ahead than I was when I took it to them.
:yikes: Do you have a detailed bill stating exactly what they did in their diagnostics? Not sure where you are at but would consider getting some legal advice. Sounds like extortion to me.
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I'd love to get a second opinion... But two problems persist with that...
1. No other Kawi dealers within an hours drive
2. That would mean forking over $1600 to them for diagnostics and be absolutely zero further ahead than I was when I took it to them.
Well, you are exactly zero further than when you brought it to them, and in the hole for costs.. now they will want to charge to reassemble the bike? I'm sure they will, if it is not assembled now... grab the bike and run... an hour drive, with bike in truck or on a trailer, to a dealership that can and will use the proper Kawasaki Diagnostic tools and computer, to say exactly what is wrong with the bike (did tyghis part somehow get missed... ???) Is required..
What exactly did they say when you asked if and what they found using standard Kawasaki programs and analysis tools, like the KDS 3 complete system?
Did they have this system? Did they use it? Id walk in and ask them ti run the diagnistics on it in front of you, and show it to you, after them fugggin around for 15 freaking hours... they are f.o.s..
They cold not have run correct procedural work, viable to Kawasaki, and billable as a Kawasaki dealership, unless they follow specific protocal...
Period.
You need some serious legal backing here, and some serious talking with Kaw, and it isn't gonna happen thru this dealer, who is wayyy off base, and may be b-slapped by Kaw for this whole charade.
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This is a horrible situation. Like others, I think something shady is going on here. These bikes are very reliable.... having a bad wiring harness is quite unusual. Them "spending" $1600 just to diagnose with nothing to show for it so far is wild. I am not even sure what advice to give you. I would probably call Kawasaki. You can see why we almost insist people spend the measly $127 or so a year for the factory extended warranty- it is not even because the bike might need repair, but even just to protect against dealership strangeness.
Was this bike single owner, bought new by you? Did you buy it from that dealer? Just curious...
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Did you bring it to a KAWASAKI dealer ?. If there were a ECU or major electrical problem the KDS system should of picked up some codes. If they have not mentioned any codes & they do not have a KDS system then they should not be working on your bike. Call Kawasaki Corporate & get them involved if this is the case. I would also tell Kawasaki corporate about the dealer wanting to "Buy" your bike. There is a conflict of interest with them wanting to buy your bike while they are supposedly trying to fix it for you. There are some members here that have some contacts within Kawasaki. If you need to go threw corporate then maybe someone here can give you a contact number.
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Here is the RSA, it wouldn't even help trying to contact Kawi HQ. They support their fidiot (F :censored: ing idiot) vendors more than the actual customers.....
I have 2x fellow members in my club, that bought the 650 Versys brand new. Within 2 months, both had to have their frames replaced due to rust from inside the frame. The crap that happened during this time is unbelievable, and way too much top try and type out. One of the guys took his bike to another mechanic here, who used to work for Kawi Racing. He ended up doing a 2-page report on problems found, with the bike going straight from the Kawi-authorised dealer to him. This included loose neck bearings, stripped bolts, harnesses routed incorrectly, just to name a few....
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I'm too lazy to attach my "BLAME CANADA" pic, but there ya go. $5500US is the going rate if your trading in a perfect 2011 with low miles at a Euro bike dealer. KBB trade says 6200, but that's fantasy. Dude I don't know what to tell you. I'm eating right now.
Okay. With no other info to go on, sounds like you're screwed. The dealer sounds crooked, so you can't ask them to just put it back together cause your out the shop charges AND they will really screw the bike for you. Just admit you got sucker punched, learn your lesson, and tell them you want the 5500 in quarters. At least you'll leave with about 700 pounds that's worth something.
More bad news... it's only 275 pounds. I looked it up.
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Where in Canada? What dealership? If you are in Ontario I may be able to steer you to some decent ones, and at least you can get these crooks into the light so we can warn off others. Sorry for your ordeal.
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Listen guys, harrummmphing and such, is not progressing a selective solution at this time, I have asked legitimate questions as to how the dealership came to their conclusions, and why it took soo long, and is misdiagnosed..
I highly suggest reading all of the posts prior to this one, then sit back, digest it, and carry on...
This IS a case of questionable dealership practice, no bones about it.. with that said, they should be identified, and borught out into the open, p/m me if so desired, I still have a few inside contacts within KMC USA, I think, and will do whatever I can to assist, but being in Canada, I think you need some legal assistance, as KMC is not really a high priority with your peoples system, in fact, by the warranty restrictions imposed, I think its so low on their radar, they just would be flipping you off.. unfortunatly... but then the dealer has flipped you off, bent you over, and is prepping you for sever wallet penetration without lube..... man...
How much is a gallon of gas up there?
Maybe it might be worth leaving an unattended can, on the roof of that building.... but wear gloves.
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Now look who's harrummmphing! ;D
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I'm in Edmonton Alberta. I'm hesitant to out the dealership before I finalize things just in case they lurk in these parts. As far as legal counsel, in theory wonderful... In practicality, it jumps the cost of this ordeal even higher. The bike was for sale anyway for $10k... I'm going to see if I can get my $5500 and walk... Then I can go enjoy my current K1600GT (fully warrantied) and be done with the whole ordeal...
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Hmmm ... you're hoping to end your ordeal via a BMW ???
I kid! I kid!
(well, sorta)
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:yikes:
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Hmmm ... you're hoping to end your ordeal via a BMW ???
LOL!
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I'll definitely be ponying up for the extended warranty I didn't have the option for on the Kawi.
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Here is the RSA, it wouldn't even help trying to contact Kawi HQ. They support their fidiot (F :censored: ing idiot) vendors more than the actual customers.....
I have 2x fellow members in my club, that bought the 650 Versys brand new. Within 2 months, both had to have their frames replaced due to rust from inside the frame. The crap that happened during this time is unbelievable, and way too much top try and type out. One of the guys took his bike to another mechanic here, who used to work for Kawi Racing. He ended up doing a 2-page report on problems found, with the bike going straight from the Kawi-authorised dealer to him. This included loose neck bearings, stripped bolts, harnesses routed incorrectly, just to name a few....
I had great luck with Kawaski USA. I had 2 problems with my local dealer & a couple other people had the same problems. That dealer eventually lost their Kawasaki franchise & not log after went out of business. Kawasaki corporate took care of my issues directly.
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If you have not yet called Kawasaki directly about this dealer then I don't know how anyone can help you :battle:
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I agree, would be best to contact Kawasaki and ask if they can help.
If they will not help, you haven't lost anything but a little time.
Ride safe, Ted
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To MOB..Yes ECU's are interchangeable. I bought one on for my '09 off of ebay and had SISF flash it. It had to be setup for the bike with the KDS system he has. We used it to test his flash in the early stages last year. It is the same part number as the one in my '09. Zarticus was there with us. He would flash the spare and i would come up on the weekend swap it out and test it for a week. Giving him feed back in the process. ;)
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To MOB..Yes ECU's are interchangeable. I bought one on for my '09 off of ebay and had SISF flash it. It had to be setup for the bike with the KDS system he has. We used it to test his flash in the early stages last year. It is the same part number as the one in my '09. Zarticus was there with us. He would flash the spare and i would come up on the weekend swap it out and test it for a week. Giving him feed back in the process. ;)
Yup, If you remember it was my KDS system that programed your 2nd ECU :chugbeer:
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To MOB..Yes ECU's are interchangeable. I bought one on for my '09 off of ebay and had SISF flash it. It had to be setup for the bike with the KDS system he has. We used it to test his flash in the early stages last year. It is the same part number as the one in my '09. Zarticus was there with us. He would flash the spare and i would come up on the weekend swap it out and test it for a week. Giving him feed back in the process. ;)
Thank you for your response,
I never said an ECU could not be replaced or reflashed To function.
If you go back, and read thru this post, specifically the o/p's description of what took place, and my responses to what he described as actions taken by the dealership, you will find my responses were correct.
The ECU yo purchased off Ebay, had to have been the same year, or generation as your original to have the same part number....which you state. Is a 2009 bike.
Also, the ECU had to be flashed to your bike in order to function.
It clearly would not have been a 2015 ECU you got....
The o/P states he has a 2011, and they "stuck in one from a new bike on the showroom floor", which I assume would be a '15 or '16 model
He said nothing about them flashing it, nor do I think they would, as it was from a new bike....
Nor did they hook up a KDS to analyze the system, had they done that, they could have run diagnostics....which we have no feedback on.
My statements are also based on the differences on ECU and solid state relay modules between 2011 and 2015-16
2011 ecu is 21175-0368 can/usa or 21175-0369 Calif.
The relay box is 27002-0007
2015 ECU is 21175-0958 Can/USA or 21175-0959 Calif.
Relay unit is 27002-0025
SISF can further explain why what I described as being done by the dealership simply wasn't feasable, but I think if you read what I said, its understandable as why I said it.
I'm still awaiting some semblence of clarification from the o/p as to what the outcome is, once someone does actual diagnostics on the bike.
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To fill in some of the blanks, it was diablo6v's bike that had the poor connection at the ecu that kept the secondary stepper motor clicking and draining the battery. He and Zarticus were present when we were swapping ECU's trying to find the problem. I had a ridiculous amount of diagnostic time in it, and couldn't find the problem, and IT NEVER SHOWED on the kds unit.
It was almost by accident that I did find the problem... I was back probing the harness/ connector pins at the ECU looking for places that power was present, as I had already determined the secondary stepper motor had to reset before the ECU could shut down. As I pushed the probe into one connection, the stepper motor stopped clicking and shut down. After working the connection, the bike has never done that since.
Funny thing is that I think it was Zarticus who said "no dealer would have ever found that, they'd just say you need a new harness and ECU".
Since the OP talked about the clicking relays, maybe it's not the relays and in fact the stepper motor trying to cycle to reset. Maybe the exact same issue As Diablo's bike.
BTW there is ZERO information on this in the FSM, and zero info on the electrical paths built into the ECU to facilitate a proper shutdown. I now know the procedure, but man, that was a PITA. Steve
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Thanks Steve, I wasn't aware by Diab's post that his bike was the mystery connection bike you went nuts on...
I hear what you are saying, and agree, and have also remembered to keep it in my mind when these harness problems arise.
I did however have exception to the list of things the dealer said about the o/p's bike, and find a bit of oddity in their methods... including plugging in a new model ECU...
Please tell my what you think based on the o/p's reporting and what was said to have been done.
Oh, glad to see you are back....no more vacations for you for another year... dammit.....
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MOB assuming the dealer put in a 2015/16 ecu, the bike would run but throw alternating ktric / efi codes because the 02 heaters are turned on but the circuit isn't completed. I created this fault on purpose on my own bike just to learn what happens. Steve
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I have a feeling that this dealer does not have a clue & switched ECU'S without using a KDS system to "program " to the bike. Just unplugging one from another bike & plugging it into his will not work, The bike will not communicate with it & it will be the same as having no ECU at all !!
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Sorry everyone, I've been away and couldn't get back to this. For clarity, them dealer did not swap ecu's as they are not interchangeable off of a '15. They only swapped relays and such that WERE interchangeable.
I'm going to the dealer today to discuss.
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Any updates to this???
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Gotta love it when people post questions & get other people involved then just leave ya hanging :banghead:
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Gotta love it when people post questions & get other people involved then just leave ya hanging :banghead:
Yep, have a problem... roll in, pick peoples brains, and dissapear, discarding us all like a used con......
Concours owner...
Thought I was gonna say condrum didn't ya? 8)
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Yep, have a problem... roll in, pick peoples brains, and dissapear, discarding us all like a used con......
Concours owner...
Thought I was gonna say condrum didn't ya? 8)
Nope, I thought your were going to say "condom". ;D