Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: SVonhof on July 25, 2016, 03:47:30 PM
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I went on a 1700 mile 5-day trip (got back yesterday) and went through quite a bit of heat. One of the things I noticed was that the shifting got pretty difficult (had to have the clutch lever pulled all the way back to get it into 1st and sometimes to get into 2nd). Once past 3rd, it wasn't a big deal to shift and I would sometimes shift without using the clutch as well.
Also, in the mornings, I would pull the clutch in (bike in first) and hit the starter and it would pull the bike forward some since the clutch was not fully releasing. The clutch started to grab first gear really fast which is not normal either. I have noticed this in the past as well on long multi-day rides, but never thought much of it.
I use Mobil1 oil (full synth), could that be part of the issue?
Ideas, suggestions or comments?
Other than that, I had no issues at all and had a great time around the L.A./San Diego area (besides the heat and traffic).
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Yep, you need to use Rotella T6
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How often have you changed the fluid and cleaned the grunge out of the master?
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Yep, you need to use Rotella T6
Yeah, if he is using Mobil 1 car oil, that is really not appropriate for motorcycles with a wet clutch..... I am using Liqui Molly T4, but there are plenty of others. But it sounds like there could be some other issues, too.
Additional questions to original poster- How long have you had the C14 in years and miles? What is the current mileage? Have you used the bike with any other oils, if so, what/when? When last was the clutch fluid replaced and bled (in both years and miles)?
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To answer the questions:
2009 that has 32000 miles on it. I got it in 2010 with 3500 miles on it.
The clutch fluid has not been replaced, only topped off.
I used other oil in the past and it was Castrol GTX (I believe it was motorcycle specific but I cannot remember as that was 2010). All other changes have been the same oil I have now.
I guess I need to start thinking about some of the things I have never dealt with before on a bike, since I have never kept a bike this long... That's a good thing for this bike, I see no need to replace it!
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It sure wouldn't hurt to flush the clutch fluid. I can't believe no one said that. Or typed it, for that matter. You shouldn't need to top off clutch fluid, unless there's a leak. ;)
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Brake fluid and clutch fluid needs to be replaced regularly. (every two years normally- no more than 3 years)
Once the fluid is tan colored it has absorbed too much water. In high humidity states like Florida that can occur even sooner and not riding the bike (sitting and low mileage bikes) just adds to the problem.
Time for a full brake fluid and clutch fluid replacement (7 year old fluid?).
What color is your fluid?
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It sure wouldn't hurt to flush the clutch fluid. I can't believe no one said that. Or typed it, for that matter. You shouldn't need to top off clutch fluid, unless there's a leak. ;)
I kinda implied that.... so did gPink When last was the clutch fluid replaced and bled (in both years and miles)?
You shouldn't need to top off clutch fluid, unless there's a leak. ;)
Yeah, I was wondering that. I suppose over a long time, the level would drop some, but by that time, unless something is really wrong, it would typically be time to replace and flush anyway.
And no, I haven't done either on mine yet (brake/clutch) but it is past time.
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Brake fluid and clutch fluid needs to be replaced regularly. (every two years normally- no more than 3 years)
I am bad. But my excuse is that I am still waiting for my friend to help me with it (he has been too busy for months, STILL). I am sticking with that excuse.
In high humidity states like Florida that can occur even sooner
I guess living 15 miles from the ocean to the east and and 10 miles from the bay to the north, here, is probably similar to way down there. Based on the weather the past several days, everything is steaming and melting.
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So, yes, time for fluid replacement. I will put that on my To-Do list for my next Friday off. And yes, the fluid looks to be tan colored to some extent.
I do live in a low humidity environment (30% during the day is high for us), so I got that going for me. ;-)
The front brakes have been replaced twice under warranty, so I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that they flushed the fluid. I will open the reservoir and double-check the color.
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Oh, and I doubt I have added any fluid to the clutch, but I know I have added to the brake reservoir.
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The front brakes have been replaced twice under warranty, so I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that they flushed the fluid. I will open the reservoir and double-check the color.
You could replace rotors and pads without replace brake fluid. Other than both being part of the brake system, they're pretty much unrelated.
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You could replace rotors and pads without replace brake fluid. Other than both being part of the brake system, they're pretty much unrelated.
Yeah, I have done that before, but I figure a dealer should flush it. Maybe not, but I will take a look at it and see. And I will check the paperwork to see if it was noted if they did it or not.
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The clutch fluid would be very easy as it's not tied into the ABS etc obviously. I'd get a speed bleeder and go to town.
Oil changes help shifting. I use Rotella T6.
Or you could need a clutch? Hard to say, I'd do the cheap easy fixes first.
One more thing, have you changed the adjuster on the clutch lever? That makes a difference in where the engagement point is in the travel of the clutch, that would make things feel different.
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Or you could need a clutch? Hard to say, I'd do the cheap easy fixes first.
The easy things are always the first to be done in my book! They rarely are the cause though.
One more thing, have you changed the adjuster on the clutch lever? That makes a difference in where the engagement point is in the travel of the clutch, that would make things feel different.
I have it set and have not changed it for a long time, but will double-check to see where it is. Typically, it's a 1/2 pull and I can get the bike in or out of gear with no issues. That day in particular, it was a pull all the way to the grip (or as close as it would let me), to get it into first and even then, it was still partially engaged as it was bogging the engine a little.
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I went on a 1700 mile 5-day trip (got back yesterday) and went through quite a bit of heat. One of the things I noticed was that the shifting got pretty difficult (had to have the clutch lever pulled all the way back to get it into 1st and sometimes to get into 2nd). Once past 3rd, it wasn't a big deal to shift and I would sometimes shift without using the clutch as well.
Also, in the mornings, I would pull the clutch in (bike in first) and hit the starter and it would pull the bike forward some since the clutch was not fully releasing. The clutch started to grab first gear really fast which is not normal either. I have noticed this in the past as well on long multi-day rides, but never thought much of it.
I use Mobil1 oil (full synth), could that be part of the issue?
Ideas, suggestions or comments?
Other than that, I had no issues at all and had a great time around the L.A./San Diego area (besides the heat and traffic).
I don't believe that this is oil related, although changing it can't hurt. I had the very same thing happen to me last year on a trip into upper PA (Bradford). It happened on the way back. It worked itself out, but when I got home I flushed the clutch fluid and it hasn't happened again.
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Flushed the clutch fluid on Friday. Yesterday was the first chance I had to ride it, but no issues at all. The old fluid was dirty and had some sediment in it as well.
I will see how it does long term, but I suspect that it will be better than it was.
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I had the same situation a couple years ago. For whatever reason, I had air in the line.
Bled it out, and it's been fine since. BTW, I also use Mobil 1 'car' oil, and have never had any issues whatsoever, with anything..ever.
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:yikes: :rotflmao:
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Time to revisit this issue. My 08 has 73k+ on the odometer. I change the clutch fluid every two years. I did it last fall, put the bike away for the winter, then rode a bit around here before going on a trip to AR. We trailered down there. I only rode two days of about 250 miles each, due to weather. On the second day at the last gas stop I noticed the clutch wasn't behaving as usual. The lever had more free play. We got home and I did a few short rides and the shifting got worse. I bled out the top bleeder and got some air, then the bottom bleeder and got more air. At that point it seemed pretty good so I buttoned it up and rode it the next day. The following day it wouldn't disengage completely so I left it home. I'm now going to borrow a friends a vacuum bleeder and see if I can get all the air out. I may just flush out the whole system again. Has anyone replaced the o-ring/gland in the master cylinder? I looked on bikebandit.com and they didn't list it as a separate part. In the past I've repaired them by just polishing the cylinder walls and reinstalling the existing parts.
Sorry for the long post. Anyone have any input?
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Well, in the meantime I found another clutch bleeding issue thread that tackled this issue more completely. It seems I need a power bleeder of some sort. I'll borrow one from a buddy this time and buy one if it works well. No one has had to change the seals yet it seems, so I'm not going to worry about it.
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When I had a engagement problem I found the return hole in the master was not flowing fluid. I used the mity vac to suck the dirt out of the bottom of the reservoir while pumping the lever.
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I have an '09 that had the same issues with the clutch. I bleed my clutch yearly. No air in the lines at all. I started paying attention to when i had issues. All of them were when the bike was very hot or completely cold. If it was cold, the clutch engaged very early. If it was very hot, the clutch lever felt good but i had missed shifts. I realized that the symptoms all occurred after the engine oil had about 3,0000 miles on it. Once i switched to Mobil 1 Synthetic it almost completely went away until I had 4-5,000 miles on it. I am using Amsoil now a grp 4 synthetic. All my clutch issues and shifting issues are completely gone. I believe this tranny is hard on oils and causes a lot of sheer. It could be just me and my bike. Change the oil and see if it improves.
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Thanks gPink. When I get my power bleeder I will give that a try.
Diablo6v, I only have about 700 miles on the oil so that isn't the problem. I changed the oil when I changed the brake and clutch fluids. I do agree though that I can tell when the oil has been in there long enough because the shifting gets a little wonky.
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As always when this issue comes up about the C-14's brakes or clutch: power bleed it.... three times and all will be well. These systems simply do not fully bleed using any of the manual methods that are usually used. The brakes are soft (Boys!) and often 'pump up', while the clutch changes engagement point a great deal when the engine warms up. All of these are signs of air trapped in the system, and the various orifices (orifi?.... oh yeah, Easy Boys!) in the system are simply too small to allow fluid to flow fast enough to get all the air out. So again, buy a power bleeder or use someone elses', and after you are absolutely, positive that you have bleed more than enough fluid through the system, do it at least one more time.
I am 100% serious about this and my experiences with several C-14's have shown me that it is not anecdotal but really what is going on. These bikes simply do not bleed well, and not even adequately using the master cylinder to push fluid through the system as has been done for ~100 years on gazillions of road vehicles using hydraulics.
Brian
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Okay I power bled it and all is well! I held off posting for a bit to not jinx it, but I think it's all well and good. I cleaned out the port with a toothpick, then bled a bunch of fluid through that. Then bled the top bleeder screw and got a bunch of air out. Went to the bottom and didn't see much air. Went back and hit the top bleeder again and by now the clutch lever felt really good. Test ride confirmed it. I have about 200 miles on it now and it is still solid. Big trip to Road America for superbike racing this weekend will be the ultimate test. About a 1000 mile weekend with a combination of freeway and back roads.
Thanks again to all who posted and especially B.D.F.
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Happy to help if / when I can and glad it worked out for you.
What is unfortunate is that this is a repeating problem that has a clear and very precise answer. All of the 'motor oil, clutch plate, clutch spring, hot / cold, humid / dry situations causing insufficient and, especially varying behavior of the clutch are really (wait for it) clutch hydraulic problems. Somehow a tad (technical term) of air gets into the system and it is an absolute BIT$@H to get out. Often when I have bled a problem motorcycle clutch, I have not even seen so much as one tiny bubble in the outgoing fluid but once fully- bled, it acts like a new bike again for a long time.
To add even more unfortunateness (sic), dealers often do not address this situation correctly either. They either manually bleed the clutch (does not work), or go looking for the things listed in the above paragraph.
Okay I power bled it and all is well! I held off posting for a bit to not jinx it, but I think it's all well and good. I cleaned out the port with a toothpick, then bled a bunch of fluid through that. Then bled the top bleeder screw and got a bunch of air out. Went to the bottom and didn't see much air. Went back and hit the top bleeder again and by now the clutch lever felt really good. Test ride confirmed it. I have about 200 miles on it now and it is still solid. Big trip to Road America for superbike racing this weekend will be the ultimate test. About a 1000 mile weekend with a combination of freeway and back roads.
Remember, motorcycle clutch hydraulics are like human intestines: neither one needs air and if present, is bound to cause often erratic and always unpleasant results.
Brian
Thanks again to all who posted and especially B.D.F.
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I do this :hail: before I bleed the clutch..
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No need for incantations or prayers to false gods..... just fill the reservoir, crack the bleeder and suck hard.... with a power bleeder. All will be well.
Brian
I do this :hail: before I bleed the clutch..
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Well, I spoke too soon. :-[ On the way home I started to lose the clutch. Once home, I opened it up and bled it again. All was good or so I thought. Rode to work this morning and barely got here as the clutch went away totally. It happens when I'm just traveling along the road. Suddenly the lever starts to go away until there is nothing left. It really makes me wonder if there is a leak because I get the lever feeling really good, then it goes away again.
I'm using my buddies homemade bleeder. I can get about 10 inches of water vacuum with it, but it won't pull any fluid out of the bleed screws. ??? I don't get that. If I pull the lever and crack the bleed screw I get fluid and bubbles, which the power bleeder then sucks out of the tube. I'm starting to think I have a leaky seal on the piston. I'm ready to turn it over to the local dealer who seems to know what he's doing. Crap.
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I've had clutch issues with my 08 since the first winter it experienced (about 6 months into ownership). The clutch lever goes limp (easy Brian!) and engages immediately upon releasing the lever from the handgrip. The dealer has dicked around with it numerous times and most solutions were to bleed the fluid, which is a decent bandaid. The fluid gets black grainy particles in the bottom of the reservoir and I'm not sure where that comes from.
Upon looking at it myself, I removed the slave cylinder and found a tremendous amount of corrosion, gunk, and brown fluid in the cavity. Upon showing the dealer, they replaced the oring on the clutch pushrod down at the slave cylinder. It worked much better for a couple of years until it started again. In fact, the clutch died on me about two blocks from my house the other day when it was very hot. Upon taking off the slave cylinder (which had to be pried/beat to remove), I found a similar situation plus a MANGLED oring. I put a new one in yesterday and it is working well again.
I am perplexed because the master cylinder fluid system is completely separate from the pushrod/oring system, but somehow one affects the other.
I've found that replacing the fluid each year does tend to delay the problem, so that's my current solution. A Mity Vac pump kit is available from Harbor Freight for about $30. It's worth every penny.
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Is this the sort of bleeder you all are referring to?
https://www.amazon.com/1L-VACUM-BRK-FLUID-BLEEDER/dp/B00BANZSJO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497018432&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+power+bleeder (https://www.amazon.com/1L-VACUM-BRK-FLUID-BLEEDER/dp/B00BANZSJO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497018432&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+power+bleeder)
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Do not know about other but not me- I propose a compressed air operated, automatic power bleeder to suck the (Boys!) living daylights out of the hydraulic systems on a C-14. An alternative would be a hand pumped unit but not like that one; some have a long, plunger type operating rod that is used to create a substantial vacuum in a container, then the container used to bleed the brakes. But the air operated ones are best IMO, and have become quite reasonable in price, especially the ones from Harbor Freight.
Brian
Is this the sort of bleeder you all are referring to?
https://www.amazon.com/1L-VACUM-BRK-FLUID-BLEEDER/dp/B00BANZSJO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497018432&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+power+bleeder (https://www.amazon.com/1L-VACUM-BRK-FLUID-BLEEDER/dp/B00BANZSJO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497018432&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+power+bleeder)
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Do not know about other but not me- I propose a compressed air operated, automatic power bleeder to suck the (Boys!) living daylights out of the hydraulic systems on a C-14. An alternative would be a hand pumped unit but not like that one; some have a long, plunger type operating rod that is used to create a substantial vacuum in a container, then the container used to bleed the brakes. But the air operated ones are best IMO, and have become quite reasonable in price, especially the ones from Harbor Freight.
Brian
One of these monkeys???
https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html)
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Yes, that is the type. I am not familiar with the particular model though the price is certainly attractive.
Brian
One of these monkeys???
https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html)