Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: martin_14 on May 29, 2016, 08:16:57 AM
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I changed my old brake discs, all 3 of them, for EBCs with the corresponding pads. After a thorough test through the Italian Alps the last 10 days (I did around 2000 miles), I can say that there seems to be no difference on the braking power, but there's noise and, at some lever pressure levels, vibration It seems like this magic button design between disc and hub has some play, not sure. This is changing, I guess due to the pads seating on the discs, but so far I'm not exactly thrilled with the vibrations. As I said, the noise doesn't bother me, and I knew it was going to be there because nearly everybody going to EBCs mentioned it, and I run my second set of OEM discs (the first ones where changed under warranty due to warping) with EBC pads and they were noisier than stock pads.
So, that's the story on the brake discs. But what triggered me to change them was the spongy feeling on the lever on first pulsation, which after quick release and re-applying force, the lever became stiff again, as it used to be before this issue started. There's no air in the system, or at least it's been bled thoroughly a couple of times. So, my mechanic thinks that after 70 000 miles the piston sealing in the brake master cylinder might need replacement (50 dollars), or maybe the whole assembly (316 dollars).
Has anybody had to deal with this? what was the symptom, and the solution?
I have been dragging on this issue with the brakes for some time and I want to get on with it. I take fanatical care of the bike, but sometimes I ride hard, two up, and I punish the bike when some wannabee on a crotch rocket wants to show off.
PS: this bike really packs a punch. I had the chance to measure her against a Triumph Rocket III and, although that thing has torque, it also has mass and lack HP. In the right gear, I could easily keep up, and even go quicker. So far, only a well ridden Panigale or the likes are able to pull away in the Alpine passes. And some smart old f@rt on a prehistoric Yamaha Diversion 900, whose name I won't mention (Rick) ;)
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Something uneven is causing the lever to become soft and then hard. The only time I had that happen to me was when one of the front rotors warped. But it could also be a worn master cylinder or caliper letting air into the system. When you finish riding for the day, make sure the lever is where it should be and then check it in the morning. If its soft again by just sitting then it's a worn cylinder or caliper piston seal. I don't think a pad deposit can affect the lever (it might affect vibration though). You need to get the rotor checked for warpiness. Check the pads and see if you see any uneven wear on them. That can be an indicator.
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I also got a new set of EBC brake rotors, and after installing had a pulsing and vibration in the brakes.
I Measured the rotors and found 5 thousands of an inch difference at various points on them.
I called EBC and they sent me new ones but I haven't even opened the box yet.
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As far as the spongy lever that gets hard on the second pull (Easy Boys!), I believe that is due to air in the system. C-14's are horrible to bleed and I have not had any success fully bleeding any of the three hydraulic systems without a power bleeder. I could get 95% of the way there but that last little bit of air was really elusive and resistant. A MityVac power bleeder pulls fluid through the system fast enough to get ALL of the air out of the system in my experience.
This has nothing to do with the pulsation though, that would be some variable in a rotor (or both).
Brian
I changed my old brake discs, all 3 of them, for EBCs with the corresponding pads. After a thorough test through the Italian Alps the last 10 days (I did around 2000 miles), I can say that there seems to be no difference on the braking power, but there's noise and, at some lever pressure levels, vibration It seems like this magic button design between disc and hub has some play, not sure. This is changing, I guess due to the pads seating on the discs, but so far I'm not exactly thrilled with the vibrations. As I said, the noise doesn't bother me, and I knew it was going to be there because nearly everybody going to EBCs mentioned it, and I run my second set of OEM discs (the first ones where changed under warranty due to warping) with EBC pads and they were noisier than stock pads.
So, that's the story on the brake discs. But what triggered me to change them was the spongy feeling on the lever on first pulsation, which after quick release and re-applying force, the lever became stiff again, as it used to be before this issue started. There's no air in the system, or at least it's been bled thoroughly a couple of times. So, my mechanic thinks that after 70 000 miles the piston sealing in the brake master cylinder might need replacement (50 dollars), or maybe the whole assembly (316 dollars).
Has anybody had to deal with this? what was the symptom, and the solution?
I have been dragging on this issue with the brakes for some time and I want to get on with it. I take fanatical care of the bike, but sometimes I ride hard, two up, and I punish the bike when some wannabee on a crotch rocket wants to show off.
PS: this bike really packs a punch. I had the chance to measure her against a Triumph Rocket III and, although that thing has torque, it also has mass and lack HP. In the right gear, I could easily keep up, and even go quicker. So far, only a well ridden Panigale or the likes are able to pull away in the Alpine passes. And some smart old f@rt on a prehistoric Yamaha Diversion 900, whose name I won't mention (Rick) ;)
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thanks guys. Out of the country now, but coming back this weekend. On Monday I'm taking her to the dealer and getting the discs and master cylinder checked.
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Let us know how it turns out Martin.
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will do. But crappy weather has kept me from riding the whole week >:( so no trip to the dealer yet.
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so, I managed to drive to the workshop. All seals (front brake callipers and master cylinder) are going to be exchanged. He'll order the parts and I got a slot for next week. I hate my brakes right now. I'll report back when the job is done.
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so, yesterday I picked up the bike. Things are back to normal, it seems. They redid the callipers and master cylinder (disassembled, cleaned and changed the sealings) and the piston on the master cylinder has been changed, as well.
The lever seems to have a consistent travel and the amount of force I have to apply for a given braking effect is also immediately there, no need to "prime" it by squeezing it, letting go and quickly apply brakes again. I'm still skeptical, I must say, but if this stupid weather let's me go out for a spin I'll be able to check if the problem is really gone.
Side note: for the 24 hs that the bike was in the shop I got a Versys 1000 fully equiped (extra lights, gear indicator, side and topcases...). I really liked it, very very comfy, until I braked. Bike had just 500 miles and the discs were warped beyond words. On the positive side, the engine was surprisingly smooth, more so if we consider that it has just one balance shaft. Very unlike the buzz that I remember from the Z1000SX when it came out and I considered it as a replacement (NOT!!!) for my 1400GTR.
[update]
the amount of force I have to apply on the brake hand lever, and the travel I get, are now consistent. Good.
The braking force is rubbish. Bad. It means that I have to squeeze the brakes quite a bit in order to stop the bike. Not happy. I'm going back to the workshop on Monday to see what can be done. Not happy right now.
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instead of going back to the shop I decided to leave it as it is (bike brakes, after all) and go on a trip to the south of France (yes, I was 50 miles from Nice when the shite happened).
After just 500 miles or so, and probably due to extreme heat (100°F), passenger and fully loaded, the brakes went back to the previous bad behaviour. I'm NOT amused. After that I drove another 3000 miles through the Alps to Slovenia and back to Munich yesterday evening, some 1000 miles alone but spirited. Bike delivered, but I have to first squeeze the lever so the calliper pistons push the pads against the discs, then release and reapply pressure quickly to start the braking itself. While I was in France I found a really good Kawasaki dealer that bled the system (found air on the left front part of the system) and the guy told me that either the brakes have to be rebuild (they just have been) or the seals are still stiff and keep pulling back the pistons too far into the calliper when I let go the lever. He added that it should get better with the mileage, but 2000 miles later it hasn't.
I'm pissed. I'm going to see my mechanic at some point in the next days, but I'd like to have your input, guys, from those that know about the matter. PLEASE!!!
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Martin, as a temporary fix try pumping the lever and tying it back to the handle overnight. If it's the seals sticking to the pucks they should release and return.
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Martin, as a temporary fix try pumping the lever and tying it back to the handle overnight. If it's the seals sticking to the pucks they should release and return.
gPink, thanks for the reply. I did pull the lever and tied it overnight during the trip, a few days after the bleeding procedure was performed, because it was still requiring a pre-pumping of the lever. Yes, it felt a bit more "solid" the next day, but the pre-pumping action was still required. All this leads me to think that the air is not the problem, and the bleeding will only address the sponginess pressing the lever (which is not much), but it still seems to me that the problem is the pistons being pulled back into the calliper, hence the need to "pre-pump". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
A question (it's my English): could you explain me what you mean with "puck"? is it synonym of "piston"?
Another one: how far can I pull the brake lever? until it touches the handlebar? it seems like a big amount of force...
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Piston=puck...same thing. Still sounds like air in the system. Does altitude make any difference? Softer up high....firmer at lower levels?
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As I said before, I have found C-14's virtually impossible to bleed by hand and it even takes a surprising amount of time and brake fluid using a power bleeder. These hydraulic systems really hate to let go of that last little bit of air. My suggestion would be to find a place that will power bleed the brakes and clutch, and pay them extra to do it at least twice as long as they think is required. Put another way, pay them to bleed the entire hydraulic system twice and if at all possible, watch them do it.
Once these systems are properly bled and completely free of air, they feel like a mechanical linkage (which hydraulics really should feel anyway). Otherwise, they remain somewhere between a bit spongy all the way to needing a few strokes (Easy Boys!) to pump them up (Boys!).
Brian
<snip>
I'm pissed. I'm going to see my mechanic at some point in the next days, but I'd like to have your input, guys, from those that know about the matter. PLEASE!!!
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thanks, guys. I'm starting to buy the "still needs a proper bleeding" explanation. I know that this is an uncommon bike compared to 600s and litre bikes, and as Brian said, extraordinarily difficult to bleed thoroughly, but my dealer should be aware of this and, believe me, my bike does not feel like it should.
While I was waiting for the job to be done I had a walk through the show room, which included even a H2 and an H2R, I sat on a new GTR1400 and the brakes were amazing. That made me so angry... I don't see a reason not to have that feeling in my bike at the first brake lever pull, not the second or third. I understand that the lines are old, of course, and that adds flexibility to the system, but what I feel in my bike seems to me different than just sponginess.
Anyway, keep thoughts & knowledge coming, please. I still have a few days till I put the next 700 miles for the service at the dealer.
PS: I'm considering the purchase of a brake bleeder. Any suggestions? I can't do a search here in Germany because I don't even know the name of these things in German :-[
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https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS (https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS)
https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-6830-Brake-Bleeder/dp/B000JFN9WC (https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-6830-Brake-Bleeder/dp/B000JFN9WC)
Two examples....
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And what I bought but haven't used yet: http://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0143 (http://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0143)
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Not knocking that product at all but that is not a power bleeder. It is simply a check valve and still requires the old 'pump and squirt' (Extra Easy Boys!) to bleed the brakes.
Power bleeders are usually powered by compressed air (using what is called a vacuum aspirator) or electricity.
Brian
And what I bought but haven't used yet: http://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0143 (http://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0143)
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Not knocking that product at all but that is not a power bleeder. It is simply a check valve and still requires the old 'pump and squirt' (Extra Easy Boys!) to bleed the brakes.
Power bleeders are usually powered by compressed air (using what is called a vacuum aspirator) or electricity.
That is extremely true, but I was just responding to "PS: I'm considering the purchase of a brake bleeder. Any suggestions?" He didn't specify a power bleeder, just a "bleeder". I can't really even recommend what I have, since I have never used it yet :) But it is something to consider, especially on the cheap.
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I use the motion pro check valve bleeder for all my bikes and cars. It works great fro me, the Concours brakes and clutch are no problems with it. It even works on Honda linked brake system, which otherwise takes 5 arms an 7 hours hours to bleed.
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I changed the pads on my rear brake a couple of weeks ago with a set of EBC's. I too now have noticeable vibratory feedback in the lever and there is also some sponginess. After about 400 miles, I bled the rear brake, even though no air can get introduced simply from changing pads, but to no avail.
I've only used Galfers and OEM to this point, and I may go back to them soon and write off the cost of the EBC's. I'm not sure what would be different about a brand name pad that would cause this.
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I run EBC HH's on everything, never an issue. I have them on C14 now.
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+1, no issues.
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I have EBC discs all around and HH EBC pads. No idea if that's the issue, but I don't think so. It's somewhere between master cylinder and brake calliper :banghead:
Oh, and I forgot to mention that when I asked about a brake bleeder, I meant power bleeder. Sorry!
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I'll chime in on the EBC pads. I have them on the front stock discs with no issues. I have a non abs '10 that I've successfully bled in the past.
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I haven't used the bike for a week (too busy at home), so yesterday when I went for a ride I was curious about the brakes. Unfortunately, they were not only still needing a pre-pump action to bring the pads in contact with the disc before actually doing and braking, but they were also mushy. Like if the lever was pulling a shoe-string instead of an expensive braking system. Drat.
So I spoke with a friend who is actually a mechanic (albeit cars) and is on his umpteenth bike, and after good consideration and diagnosis process suggested that, before changing the master cylinder, actually change the brake lines, with steal ones, if possible. The bike has almost 75 000 miles of a lot of sporty driving (Alps), so lots of heavy braking, so they are due anyway. I have the money for it, and I don't want to skimp on this.
I'll go talk with my mechanic today and see what he thinks. I really like the bike and I can't afford selling it (with that mileage I won't get anything for it) and getting another, "younger" one.
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New brake lines will not fix the need to pump the brakes. Somewhere there is air getting into the system. If it has been bled so that it feels like new and is now mushy again then the seals should be checked. If it hasn't been properly bled then try that first.
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hi Jonathan, thanks for the concern and advice.
I agree with you that somewhere there's air getting into the system, but bleeding it didn't help this symptom. It just felt a tad more solid, and the biting point was a bit more consistent. As soon as I used the bike for a few minutes, the need to pump is there. It was bled several times by different people, and the need for pumping keeps showing up.
I just came back from talking with the mechanic and I'm taking the bike in on Tuesday. I told him to keep it a couple of days and use it, go home if he wants to, so he gets the proper picture of what's going on. The lines are old (almost 9 years since the bike's been put together in Japan) and it's been used, believe me. I wouldn't blink if somebody told me "hey, time to change your brake lines". So I'll go with steel lines no matter what. BTW: should I pay extra for the stainless steel fittings, or are aluminium fittings alright? what material are the OEM fittings?
Anyway, I hope that's it, but I made it clear to them that if I'm going to cough that sort of money on the brakes, I want them sorted out.
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so, bike's at the dealer getting stainless steel braided brake lines, new tires, and an oil change. ABM GmbH, the company that bought a good German manufacturer of brake lines some years ago, sent the bike specific kit with a couple of bits (10 lines in total) wrong, and the new (hopefully correct) parts will arrive on Tuesday :banghead: :banghead:
The mechanic said that in order to do it calm and thoroughly he'll need at least a day so he can test everything. A ton of tupperware had to come off, too. So he predicted that the bike should be ready for collection on Thursday. I can't wait to feel the difference, if there's any. I drove plenty of bikes with steel braided lines and I always loved the solid feeling when applying the brakes, but I also loved the powerful brakes on the C14. Let's see...
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:popcorn:
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Would the stock lines have been less expensive, Martin?
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Would the stock lines have been less expensive, Martin?
well, I honestly don't know, but the steel lines cost around 300 and the work is the same, so I thought "let's do it". Based on what I saw with the OEM brake discs and the EBC, which cost half, I'd say that I would have paid the same, but I'll ask when I pick up the bike and get back to you with that one.
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So far I haven't had any issues with the stock brake lines but when you have issues like you've had, it's darn difficult to narrow down what exactly is causing the problems.
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little feedback. Today I finally picked up the bike. When I arrived at the dealer, the owner was serious. He told me that there were two issues still to solve.
1st the good: the steel lines have been installed and there's a solid feeling on the lever.
Now the bad-then-good-so...-neutral: the rear brake disc, which I got from EBC a couple of months ago and had installed, is around 20mm (3/4") too small in diameter, so the brake pads are only used in the inner half (I've got to get a picture). Although it was sent wrong, the dealer admitted that he should have noticed and will pay for the new rear brake disc and install it.
The second bad: the front right brake disc, also EBC (XC, with the golden hub) is warped by 0.4mm. Kawasaki states 0.2mm as still acceptable, 0.3mm being the maximum allowed. I believed that I drove them kindly.
So I just sent an e-mail to the vendor (it was through Amazon here in Germany) to ask about an exchange. I also sent an e-mail to EBC in the UK because the mechanic and I were inspecting the assembly and noticed that the golden hub of the EBC disc is actually 6mm think, when the original is just 5mm thick. The consequence is that on the right side, the ABS sensor rubs on the ring, which screws on top of the brake disc.
So, summarising: the rear disc was too small, and from the two front discs, one was warped, and they are too thick. I'm not happy right now.
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summarising: the rear disc was too small, and from the two front discs, one was warped, and they are too thick. I'm not happy right now.
Yeah, that sucks... I wouldn't be very happy either. But it is nice that you have a good dealer working with you on this stuff. I hope it works out...
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Would the warped disc contribute to the soft feeling (easy boys) that you've been having?
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Depends on the warp, but yes it can and does, at least it did with me.
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Yeah, that sucks... I wouldn't be very happy either. But it is nice that you have a good dealer working with you on this stuff. I hope it works out...
Thanks. Yes, it's a good dealer and it's only the third time that they do a mistake, although the other 2 times was some triviality like a delayed spare part or something. I've been with them for 7 years and 60 000 miles now, and we are humans and do mistakes, it's ok. But the way they always fix it is what I like from them. They even wash the bike when they have the time.
Would the warped disc contribute to the soft feeling (easy boys) that you've been having?
well, the soft feeling is gone, now the lever feels solid, for which I'm pleased. But the difference in biting point is still there. I first need to pull the lever in order to bring the pads against the disc, and a quick release-pull of the lever will really brake the bike. What changed now with the steel lines is that the second pull applies the pressure so sharply, that the ABS comes on easily, so I had to back off a little with how hard I pull that second time.
Yesterday the mechanic put a very thin (0.5mm or so) washer under the ABS sensor in order to avoid it rubbing on the sensor ring. As a result, on my 200 miles ride today I noticed that all rubbing noises from the front wheel area disappeared, which is very nice. Even the discs don't seem to rub on the pads when I'm not on the brakes, as it has to be. Good. Another thing I noticed is that when gently applying the brakes while coming to a stop like on a crossing, the braking force remains constant during the whole complete turn of the wheel, meaning that whatever warping is there, it's mild enough for the floating part of the assembly to cope with it. And yet, it's significant enough to push the pads away and giving me that dead stroke on the lever after a few seconds. Annoying.
Meanwhile, the vendor ask me to send him the disc for measurement and eventually a refund. I'll send it, but I just ordered another disc and pads so there's no downtime on the bike. It should be here by Tuesday... fingers crossed.
For now, I'm enjoying this bike as usual. Apart from the steel brake lines it got new tires (Pilot Power 3), oil, spark plugs and air filter. She sings and rides and overtakes. And today on my way home I passed the 120 000 km milestone. That's around 78565 miles 8)
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You shouldn't have to pull the lever twice to get the brakes to work or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
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It does brake, it just has a bit of a dead stroke before actually engaging. And that dead stroke changes, depending on where are the pads in that moment :o Frustrating.
I just went out with the bike to meet some friends, and on the way back I turned off the engine to check if it really is silent on the front of the bike. It isn't, and I think now it is the disc rubbing on the pads at a certain position of the wheel, once every rotation. I just cannot tell if it is the right or the left, but tomorrow I'll put the bike on the centre stand with my girlfriend on the rear seat and will check.
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Be sure you don't tell her she's dead weight.
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+1
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apparently the answer to my original question is: yes :banghead:
Bike is a '08 ABS and has 75 000 miles of tons of curves, city, and highway droning. All of it.
Small summary of what's been done:
- brakes overhauled: callipers and master cylinder disassembled, cleaned and new seals. Everything looked in very good shape, no scratches, wear, etc.
- new brake lines: I went with stainless steel
- new brake discs and pads: I got EBC.
And yet... The bike brakes 100%, that's not the issue. But the brake lever has a dead stroke when I first pull it. If I release and pull again rapidly, the dead stroke is all but gone and brakes operate like new. But if I release the lever and wait, say, 5 seconds to pull it again, it'll have the same dead stroke. As it happens, while they were looking at it at the workshop I noticed that the '16 Z1000 seems to have the same master cylinder. I pulled it, and my hand perfectly remembers the perfect feel of that brake, as it was on my GTR when I bought it.
Bad news: the dealer doesn't know what to do. I told him that he has a blank check, now go fix my brakes, but he stared at me without an answer, until he said that he doesn't know what else to do. I'm not pissed at him because everything done so far to the bike had to be done anyway, so no hard feelings and no wasted money.
Anybody has an idea? The mechanic thinks that the only thing left to try is a new hand brake assembly, master cylinder and all. Since I've been a very good customer for 7 years he offered me to take the assembly from the Z1000 that they have for rent and put it in my bike for a test, before ordering the new part (350USD).
What do you guys think? I'm starting to loose the pleasure of riding the bike. I'm really feel like I'm running out of options.
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Might as well upgrade to a Brembo master......
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,47664.msg399712/topicseen.html#new (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,47664.msg399712/topicseen.html#new)
Re: Brake Upgrade
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2014, 08:41:23 am »
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I've learned a little more about brakes since I posed last here with my adventure.
The stock master cylinder....its decent, but...ok, its really not, but its workable. However, if you want awesome, purchase either the Brembo rcs19 or go a little cheaper. I matches up piston sizes, from our calipers and it matched what Ducati was using on its 1098r. A 19x18. I used a 2011 model, but others may work. Do soem research, as oithers may be different.
Ebay has take off master cylinders that will bolt right on at around 200.00 for a nice, complete one. Powers always been fine, really, but this offers a feel and connection to the system like you wont believe.
For me, I found this to be very important and just might avoid your having to buy expensive calipers and rotors. For me, I'd do it sooner rather thna later. Its not as sexy, for sure, and we all hate spending money on something no one notices, but its a big deal.
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If he's willing to swap you with a known good master cylinder, I'd take him up on it. At least it would eliminate that as a cause.
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Why not just a rebuild of your current m/c? I had water ingress around the piston seal that caused corrosion on the bore and piston rod. The p/n 43020-0010 for 49USD is the rebuild kit for both the clutch and brake m/c. It's not a complicated part.
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Why not just a rebuild of your current m/c? I had water ingress around the piston seal that caused corrosion on the bore and piston rod. The p/n 43020-0010 for 49USD is the rebuild kit for both the clutch and brake m/c. It's not a complicated part.
That's interesting....
The parts look different from each other on the Kaw parts microfiche, the FSM also shows them looking different....
And the part numbers differ also.... at least for my 2008
Clutch piston is 43020-0013
Brake piston is 43020-0010
Rear brake piston 43020-1057
:popcorn:
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I stand corrected, I should have scrolled down the fiche I was reading to verify the tack number on the clutch side. Regardless, this $49 part fixed the issue I had which had similar symptoms to OP.
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No problem, just didn't want to give the impression they were the same, I never took my brake mc apart, but did disassemble the clutch side once after a fluid flush,
It came to mind as recently someone was asking about the internals, and differences, so it was fresh in my mind.
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Why not just a rebuild of your current m/c? I had water ingress around the piston seal that caused corrosion on the bore and piston rod. The p/n 43020-0010 for 49USD is the rebuild kit for both the clutch and brake m/c. It's not a complicated part.
What do you mean by "rebuild"? isn't taking apart callipers and brake assy with master cylinder, cleaning everything, changing all the seals and the piston in the master cylinder qualify as "rebuild"?
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What do you mean by "rebuild"? isn't taking apart callipers and brake assy with master cylinder, cleaning everything, changing all the seals and the piston in the master cylinder qualify as "rebuild"?
Sure it does... but you've been here long enough to know people simply refuse to read a post before responding...
Fact of life.
Sorry to see you going thru so much agony on this man,
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Sure it does... but you've been here long enough to know people simply refuse to read a post before responding...
Fact of life.
Sorry to see you going thru so much agony on this man,
I thought so. I was just hoping to have missed something that he had to tell me and, lo and behold, problem solved.
Oh well...
Still, I will get that Z1000 brake assy installed the other week (Tuesday 27th) and will see. Meanwhile, I'll look into those Brembo alternatives gPink mentioned.
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finally came Tuesday. So I drove to the dealer and test-drove the Z1000. The brakes have a great bite but, more relevant for my problem, the feeling at the lever is constant. So the mechanic took off my brake master cylinder, lever, etc. off my bike and put the one from the Z1000. Off I went for a drive and yes, the result was wonderful. It works like day 1.
So I ordered the new part, but it's not in stock in Germany so it has to come from Kawasaki Europe, which is in Netherlands, which might or might not have to order it from Japan. This can take anywhere between 3 days and 3 weeks, according to the mechanic's past experience.
Good enough, since I'm on a trip until the end of October, so that should be enough for the part to arrive. So he reinstalled my components back in my bike and I drove home. Now this is the annoying part: the brakes feel solid, perfectly fine. It's happened before that I drove home thinking that everything was well, just to find out 2 days later that the symptoms were back. For good. I just hope I didn't order the new brake assembly and after a couple of days it'll be rubbish again.
It is very frustrating because I still don't know what's causing this. So, ok, let's say is somewhere in the front master cylinder. But: what? To my engineer-mind this is important. To my budget too. I just spent 360EUR (about 400USD) ordering the part, and I'd like to know why.
BTW: I finally came across the right terminology for the problem I'm having. Apparently it's that the free-play at the brake lever is decreasing on a second, quick pull.
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I knew what you were talking about... Thanks for the feedback. I've seen that issue on cars and usually a master cylinder replacement fixes it. You said they replaced the seals and such in yours and it didn't make any difference? If so, the cylinder could have been the issue and seals wouldn't have fixed it. Also, did you flush the brake fluid every few years?
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I hope you're right. It's becoming increasingly frustrating, first not being able to enjoy the bike as much as before (I know, it's in my mind) and second not being able to pin point the source of the issue and solve it.
Yes, the fluid has been replaced every year or so.
Yesterday I managed to get a few pictures of the piston in the master cylinder, and boy is that full of tiny channels, sealings and what not. I can imagine that the cylinder is very sensitive to little issues, but the problem is that you can't see it.
I don't know if you guys know this, but the Z1000, all the C14 (from 08 to 16 so far) and a couple other Kawasaki's have all the same part number for the master cylinder assembly: 43015. It only changes in the 4-digits suffix. All the parts can be bought individually and they are all the same, except the cylinder itself. I wonder if there are really any difference besides colour or something irrelevant like that, and they are all interchangeable.
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After 3 weeks in the south of Italy I finally got back to Munich and had the new brake master cylinder installed. But first, an anecdote...
I just got off the ferry in Villa San Giovanni, after crossing the strait of Messina, so, from the island of Sicily to continental Italy. I took the back roads direction north, not the Autostrada, to have the chance to use the brakes. At some point, due to this annoying free play (and more annoying yet: changing free play) on the lever, at some point I stopped at the side of the road and out of pure frustration I pulled the lever all the way up until it bottomed against the handlebar. Twice. Then I waited to cool down and drove off. To my surprise, when I used the brakes they were rock hard, and the lever didn't have any free play, plus it behaved consistent. Like new, or better, in fact, since I have now SS lines.
So, after around 3 or 4 hundred miles the free play and inconsistency started showing up again. Drats. This all happened during the weekend while making my way up to Germany.
Back to this morning, I picked up the bike from the shop and, to be honest, no change. It's working like before, meaning some free play, and inconsistent at that. I paid close to 500 USD for the parts and labour and got nothing out of it. I don't just say jazaam and money appears. I don't mind paying if I have to, but this is a witch hunt. The dealer told me that I can test it and if it doesn't help he'll reinstall the old part and give me back the money minus the labour, which I found very kind of him.
I am down. This is starting to wear off the pleasure I get from driving this bike. I have no idea what to do.
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Just for giggles, take the bike above 8000 feet and bleed the brakes again.
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This still sounds/feels like you have air infiltration somewhere.
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I keep hearing that (and it makes sense to me, too) but after thorough bleeding it still does it. And when I got the Z1000 brake master cylinder installed, the mechanic didn't bleed it, just gave me the bike to test, and it was working well. But then again, when half an hour later he took that master cylinder off and reinstalled my original one, the bike didn't present the symptoms until a few hundred miles later. Sigh.
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I'd replace the master cylinder at this point based on what you've said thus far. 'Rebuilding' sometimes helps but if the cylinder walls have been pock marked new seals may not work. If I had a car doing this, I'd replace the master cylinder.
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back to this.
After around 400 miles with the brand new brake master cylinder, the same behaviour developed. The free play on first application of the front brakes is too much, after quick release and reapplication of the lever, it goes to normal.
So I took the bike back to the dealer as well as the "old" brake master cylinder to be reinstalled. The dealer's owner was disappointed and asked me to leave the bike at his place for the winter, so he could investigate the issue more thoroughly. He's not happy with not being able to sort this out for me. And since the bike is unregistered during the winter, it's irrelevant to me where it hibernates.
So, I'll leave this post sleeping until the beginning of March, when I'll pick up the bike and see if there's anything improved.
Meanwhile, if any of you guys has any suggestion, I'm all ears.
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<SNIP>
So, I'll leave this post sleeping until the beginning of March, when I'll pick up the bike and see if there's anything improved.
Meanwhile, if any of you guys has any suggestion, I'm all ears.
I don't feel like reading through the whole thread to see if this has been covered before, so if it has I beg pardon. I believe warped rotor or wheel offset in the forks could cause this behavior. Obviously (I think) a warped rotor would be noticeable in the bars on braking so apparently not warped. But the wheel offset may not be noticeable except as what you are describing. By wheel offset I mean the wheel not centered between the forks. I suspect the mechanics who have looked at it have checked for this but maybe not. Good luck.
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That's a good point. A warped rotor would push the pads out, which would mean that when you grabbed the brakes, they would feel soft initially because they are touching nothing, then would stiffen up when they came in contact with the discs.
Good potential diagnosis there.
Ahh, after rereading, it was offered as a potential cause.
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I have a question, Martin. I read the entire post and didn't see much about it.
Have others you trust ridden the bike when it is exhibiting the symptom/problem and confirmed that they feel it too? Not trying to be offensive but you are part of the system also and it seems most everything else has been changed (master cylinder, lines, pads, fluids).
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@lather: yeap, one disc was warped by 0.4mm. Kawasaki indicates that 0.3mm is the maximum allowed, so I changed the disc. No good. Now both discs are at 0.08 and 0.12, which are good values.
@PlaynInPeoria: yes, friends drove the bike, and noticed the same. 2 mechanics at the dealer, too. And I drove other bikes (20 or so, mostly BMWs but Hondas, Kawasakis and one Suzuki too) and none of them exhibited this issue. Hell, I drove the new J300 scooter from Kawasaki (which is a freaking Kymco) and it has a much better feel to it.
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That sucks, man. Good luck and keep us posted.
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I'm just wondering if this problem might be linked to the ABS pump. One of the complaints I read about the front brakes on the other forum, was that they went mushy and it ended up being an ABS pump. Just a thought.
http://forum.cog-online.org/say-anything-here-except-that (http://forum.cog-online.org/say-anything-here-except-that)!/maintenance-or-lack-there-of/
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well, the issue has been solved. After replacing the brake lines by SS lines, disconnecting the ABS unit and driving around a few days, changing the brake pump, bleeding the lines, and redoing callipers and master cylinders, I decided to go bold and just change the callipers. My dealer, Kawasaki Europe and I figured that if there was something wrong with the callipers, and they were retracting the pistons too much, that could explain behaviour. So I sourced both front brake callipers from a salvage yard and had them mounted, and voilà, brakes run perfectly for the 1000 miles that I had the bike until I was run by a bus (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22274.0).
So... short lived good news :-\
Case closed.
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You going to salvage the salvage calipers?
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well, the issue has been solved. After replacing the brake lines by SS lines, disconnecting the ABS unit and driving around a few days, changing the brake pump, bleeding the lines, and redoing callipers and master cylinders, I decided to go bold and just change the callipers. My dealer, Kawasaki Europe and I figured that if there was something wrong with the callipers, and they were retracting the pistons too much, that could explain behaviour. So I sourced both front brake callipers from a salvage yard and had them mounted, and voilà, brakes run perfectly for the 1000 miles that I had the bike until I was run by a bus (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22274.0).
So... short lived good news :-\
Case closed.
In more ways, than one.
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You going to salvage the salvage calipers?
They got scratched in the mishap, so I'm not sure.