Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Eupher on May 25, 2016, 09:51:35 AM
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At the risk of getting the sword, or being beaten about the head and shoulders from others, I have a situation that I'm not sure has been addressed in the 1,647 threads there are about the beloved KI-PASS system.
My C14 is a 2012 model, essentially unadorned but for Steve's ECU flash, a slip-on, and a couple of other unrelated things.
Yesterday, after work, I did what I usually do:
- Pressed down on the stovepipe and saw the knob thingie on the panel.
- Turned the knob from the 7 o'clock position to where the bezel says "run".
- Encountered no detent at all where the knob should have wound up, resulting in no Christmas-tree lighting ceremony.
I tried this multiple times -- turning the knob, getting no engagement. Returning the knob to the "off" and "FSS" positions; removed the knob, reinserted, continued fishing around for the knob to detent where it should have. Nichts, nada, zero, zip.
At this point, I was getting slightly worried. "Am I gonna have to leave the bike parked here and call my wife in order to get home?" I asked myself. Said a little prayer to the KI-PASS god.
That must have worked, because eventually, the knob stopped at the "Run" position, the Christmas-tree lighting ceremony happened, and I was able to ride off into the sunset.
WTF happened here? :-\
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That would suck. I'm getting ready to do 4700 miles, I don't want that to happen really far from home.
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Interestingly enough, I went in the garage to try mine out and I felt a detent between off and run. It just didn't act right. Tried a few more times and it finally came up with low transponder battery. Changed it and it all works fine now.
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You probably used it too much when it was new.
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Why does everyone exaggerate when it comes to Kipass? There were only 1352 Kipass threads (before this one).
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Don't know how many kip-ass threads but I've been here since the dawn of time and I don't recall this particular glitch being reported before.
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Neither do I, but it wouldn't hurt to change the fob battery. I'm glad this thread came up as I'm getting ready to head to southern va this Saturday morning. I've had the low transponder error before but I've always changed the battery before the next start. Never have run into this foolishness with the knob before. I could twist it past the 'detent' but the switch was acting screwy....all over a low battery. Who would have thunk it?
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Why does everyone exaggerate when it comes to Kipass? There were only 1352 Kipass threads (before this one).
Oh please, there were only 1351 threads. ::)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - don't EXAGGERATE!
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I don't think this is a KiPass issue at all. I think the problem is with your stove-knob key. My guess is that someone messed with it and tried to force it to turn. There is a clutch mechanism inside the knob that prevents it from breaking off if someone tries to force it to turn without the KiPass activation. After you messed with it enough it got back into the normal position and worked.
When you pressed it and you saw the screen light up, the KiPass system had done its thing. After that it's strictly a mechanical key system.
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Oh please, there were only 1351 threads. ::)
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - don't EXAGGERATE!
;D
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I don't think this is a KiPass issue at all. I think the problem is with your stove-knob key. My guess is that someone messed with it and tried to force it to turn. There is a clutch mechanism inside the knob that prevents it from breaking off if someone tries to force it to turn without the KiPass activation. After you messed with it enough it got back into the normal position and worked.
When you pressed it and you saw the screen light up, the KiPass system had done its thing. After that it's strictly a mechanical key system.
Interesting, and thanks. I had no trouble today at all. I think you may be right about turning the knob ONLY when prompted -- not when I'm ignoring the screen trying to figure out where the damned detent is.
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Neither do I, but it wouldn't hurt to change the fob battery. I'm glad this thread came up as I'm getting ready to head to southern va this Saturday morning. I've had the low transponder error before but I've always changed the battery before the next start. Never have run into this foolishness with the knob before. I could twist it past the 'detent' but the switch was acting screwy....all over a low battery. Who would have thunk it?
More sage advice. I bought the bike NOS last September. It pretty much from the start gave me low battery warnings on the TPMS, along with the regular battery, so it's not hard to imagine that the fob's battery might be weak too. Dunno if that had anything to do with my problem yesterday, but batteries of this type are relatively cheap. Time to get a new one.
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You probably used it too much when it was new.
:rotflmao:
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More sage advice. I bought the bike NOS last September. It pretty much from the start gave me low battery warnings on the TPMS, along with the regular battery, so it's not hard to imagine that the fob's battery might be weak too. Dunno if that had anything to do with my problem yesterday, but batteries of this type are relatively cheap. Time to get a new one.
Also you may want to familiarize yourself with the KEY IMMOBILIZER feature of the FOB which will work if the FOB battery is dead or if you inadvertently parked the bike where there is RF interference that keeps the KiPass FOB from working properly. The bike CAN be started with a dead FOB battery but the time to figure it out is BEFORE you need it. It's all in the Owners Manual.
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Also you may want to familiarize yourself with the KEY IMMOBILIZER feature of the FOB which will work if the FOB battery is dead or if you inadvertently parked the bike where there is RF interference that keeps the KiPass FOB from working properly. The bike CAN be started with a dead FOB battery but the time to figure it out is BEFORE you need it. It's all in the Owners Manual.
thanks!
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Yep, as the other poster already said, once the dash LCD lights up, KiPass has already worked. And also as he mentioned, you probably have a broken ratchet mechanism in the stove- knob key and when it turns it does not necessarily turn the ignition switch key. At a guess, you are going to need a new stove knob key although there is a remote possibility that you have a loose battery cable connection that is 'cutting in and out' on you.
But certainly you have defaulted to the right place and blamed it on KiPass..... which is ALWAYS the correct thing to do. ;) ;D
Brian
At the risk of getting the sword, or being beaten about the head and shoulders from others, I have a situation that I'm not sure has been addressed in the 1,647 threads there are about the beloved KI-PASS system.
My C14 is a 2012 model, essentially unadorned but for Steve's ECU flash, a slip-on, and a couple of other unrelated things.
Yesterday, after work, I did what I usually do:
- Pressed down on the stovepipe and saw the knob thingie on the panel.
- Turned the knob from the 7 o'clock position to where the bezel says "run".
- Encountered no detent at all where the knob should have wound up, resulting in no Christmas-tree lighting ceremony.
I tried this multiple times -- turning the knob, getting no engagement. Returning the knob to the "off" and "FSS" positions; removed the knob, reinserted, continued fishing around for the knob to detent where it should have. Nichts, nada, zero, zip.
At this point, I was getting slightly worried. "Am I gonna have to leave the bike parked here and call my wife in order to get home?" I asked myself. Said a little prayer to the KI-PASS god.
That must have worked, because eventually, the knob stopped at the "Run" position, the Christmas-tree lighting ceremony happened, and I was able to ride off into the sunset.
WTF happened here? :-\
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There is a clutch mechanism inside the knob that prevents it from breaking off if someone tries to force it to turn without the KiPass activation.
My money is on that theory too. But more like a 'clutch', it's a tab, that once jumped, you need to turn the knob until the tab relatches into its groove again.
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ratchet? clutch? tabs?
somebody take one apart......the thing I'm pointing at is a roll pin....
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg.html)
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The diagnosis of most KIPASS problems
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ratchet? clutch? tabs?
somebody take one apart......the thing I'm pointing at is a roll pin....
Good point MOB.
I guess one could refer to a couple of toothed roll pins as tabs, but ratchet or clutch are both kind of a stretch.
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I guess one could refer to a couple of toothed roll pins as tabs, but ratchet or clutch are both kind of a stretch.
The stove knob WILL jump the tabs if you turn the key with enough force. Try it with some pliers ;). It's to prevent damage to the ignition if somebody wants to try to steal the bike. Actually a clever design. Don't confuse how something works with how to take it apart ;).
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Mine has skipped a few times on the rare occasions I used it to open the gastank cap before I "fixed" the lock (it was very stiff). That is when I discovered it had some type of clutch or safety mechanism in it.
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ratchet? clutch? tabs?
somebody take one apart......the thing I'm pointing at is a roll pin....
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg.html)
I can't argue that what you're pointing at is a roll pin, that's pretty obvious. In fact there are TWO roll pins, one on each side and they do NOT meet in the middle.
But there is a clutch/release/ratchet mechanism inside the stove knob. They are actually quite difficult to disassemble but it's really easy to demonstrate the release/re-catch by clamping the key in a vice and turning it. Note the video and I'll thank you in advance for your apologies...
https://youtu.be/Hulec8ZNLJo (https://youtu.be/Hulec8ZNLJo)
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ratchet? clutch? tabs?
somebody take one apart......the thing I'm pointing at is a roll pin....
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg.html)
It's like a neanderthal grunting, "Duuuuuuhhhh. What is this big, hard, heavy thing and why can't I break it with my head."
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Ratchet.... check. Clutch.... check. Tabs.... I do not know about any tabs in the stove knob key.
They key has a ratchet mechanism that behaves as a clutch (unlike a socket ratchet, the operation of the stove knob ratchet is ambidextrous or as the kids say these days apparently.... bisexual.... it works equally well either way). It is there because the key stays with the bike but is not able to turn and dem dare clever folks at Kawasaki just knew someone, somewhere was going to have to try and 'give it a twist' without the shot pin being retracted (what happens when you press down on the key and KiPass finds all to be right in the world).
Hey, I would not kid you on anything of this magnitude Rich; really, anything at all but KiPass. ;D
Brian
ratchet? clutch? tabs?
somebody take one apart......the thing I'm pointing at is a roll pin....
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2706163150015463693VdmGGr_ph.jpg.html)
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It makes you wonder who was forcing the key . They must have thought they broke something.
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I'll thank you in advance for your apologies...
D'OH! (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/forehead-slap-smiley-emoticon.gif)
I knew I jumped in too quickly!
I apologize. You're welcome, you earned it.
I actually take mine out once a year to clean underneath the rim ( easy folks, talkin' 'bout the stove knob on the bike) but I haven't
twisted it hard enough yet to get it to ratchet or what ever it's doing for the rest of you.
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D'OH! (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/forehead-slap-smiley-emoticon.gif)
I knew I jumped in too quickly!
I apologize. You're welcome, you earned it.
I actually take mine out once a year to clean underneath the rim ( easy folks, talkin' 'bout the stove knob on the bike) but I haven't
twisted it hard enough yet to get it to ratchet or what ever it's doing for the rest of you.
Well someone else mentioned the ratchet which I've not noticed. It's more like a detent and clutch. A relatively strong amount of force is needed to pop it out of the detent but there is still considerable resistance (hence the clutch) as you turn it 180 degrees and it pops back into place. You can see that clearly in the video, near the end I tried to show the resistance as I moved it back and forth a couple time.
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I've turned mine 360 degrees when I had my issue with it. I also cursed it and beat it with my fist into submission.
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I can't argue that what you're pointing at is a roll pin, that's pretty obvious. In fact there are TWO roll pins, one on each side and they do NOT meet in the middle.
But there is a clutch/release/ratchet mechanism inside the stove knob. They are actually quite difficult to disassemble but it's really easy to demonstrate the release/re-catch by clamping the key in a vice and turning it. Note the video and I'll thank you in advance for your apologies...
https://youtu.be/Hulec8ZNLJo (https://youtu.be/Hulec8ZNLJo)
I apologise, sorry for not explaining further, but I do thank you for the video.
I never tried to force the key, was not willing to damage it prematurely on my part.
I will explain tho, the year I bought my bike, and had the rear brake lever warranty failure, I was talking with the service tech in the showroom, and he asked me about a knob failure.... someone sat on a bike and twisted the knob, reallly hard, and it failed internally, and they couldn't remove it.... I did spin it a coulple times, smacked it with a rubber covered screwdriver handle, and it still spun freely, absolutly no resistance. All I could suggest to him was to try to compress those roll pins in with a C clamp, and see if it had any effect, and if not to jamb a small nail in thru the center of the pin to see if he could get it to wedge up enough the function it.... they were pretty bummed at the time, because they had a buyer for the bike, but couldn't finish the prep....
ouch.
I had to leave and never followed up with them about what broke, This was wayyy back in time, and I posted that picture and asked if anyone had disassembled one yet, I guess nobody has, id like to see the insides, but won't risk damaging one to find out.
after watching your video, I'm figuring there is simply a spring loaded disc inside, with 2 grooves, that cradle the roll pins, seems simple enough, and would offer that resistance seen.
I figure the one I saw had that disk fracture/split, or the spring popped, or both, as the knob spun free, you could push it with one finger.
thnks again, and sorry for the miguidance on my part.
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Until my Corbin seat broke in, I felt the key give a few times. Kinda scary at first, but get it now. 8)
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I apologise, sorry for not explaining further, but I do thank you for the video.
I never tried to force the key, was not willing to damage it prematurely on my part.
I will explain tho, the year I bought my bike, and had the rear brake lever warranty failure, I was talking with the service tech in the showroom, and he asked me about a knob failure.... someone sat on a bike and twisted the knob, reallly hard, and it failed internally, and they couldn't remove it.... I did spin it a coulple times, smacked it with a rubber covered screwdriver handle, and it still spun freely, absolutly no resistance. All I could suggest to him was to try to compress those roll pins in with a C clamp, and see if it had any effect, and if not to jamb a small nail in thru the center of the pin to see if he could get it to wedge up enough the function it.... they were pretty bummed at the time, because they had a buyer for the bike, but couldn't finish the prep....
ouch.
I had to leave and never followed up with them about what broke, This was wayyy back in time, and I posted that picture and asked if anyone had disassembled one yet, I guess nobody has, id like to see the insides, but won't risk damaging one to find out.
after watching your video, I'm figuring there is simply a spring loaded disc inside, with 2 grooves, that cradle the roll pins, seems simple enough, and would offer that resistance seen.
I figure the one I saw had that disk fracture/split, or the spring popped, or both, as the knob spun free, you could push it with one finger.
thnks again, and sorry for the miguidance on my part.
All good! :)
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The video was helpful in understanding the "clutch" arrangement.
Just for the sake of clarity and as the OP of this thread, I am not in the habit of forcing any mechanical structure to do anything that it isn't supposed to do.
As I said upthread, I did what I always do -- get on the bike, press downward on the knob, and turn the key to the expected location/detent. No muscling involved, no getting pissed off and flailing around. Put simply, the key did not detent where it should have. I did try that process several times with the same result, meaning none. Either the clutch didn't disengage when it was supposed to or somesuch - I don't know.
The video shows a fair amount of effort being made with the key in the vice. No way did I use that kind of effort to turn the key in the KI-PASS lock.
Eventually it came around, but it wasn't looking good there for a few minutes.
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The video was helpful in understanding the "clutch" arrangement.
Just for the sake of clarity and as the OP of this thread, I am not in the habit of forcing any mechanical structure to do anything that it isn't supposed to do.
As I said upthread, I did what I always do -- get on the bike, press downward on the knob, and turn the key to the expected location/detent. No muscling involved, no getting pissed off and flailing around. Put simply, the key did not detent where it should have. I did try that process several times with the same result, meaning none. Either the clutch didn't disengage when it was supposed to or somesuch - I don't know.
The video shows a fair amount of effort being made with the key in the vice. No way did I use that kind of effort to turn the key in the KI-PASS lock.
Eventually it came around, but it wasn't looking good there for a few minutes.
I'm still of the opinion that someone messed with it while you were away. They tried to either start the bike or take the key and failing that, left it between detents which is how you found it. I'm sure the actual resistance of the mechanism varies. It wasn't as hard as you might think and I only clamped it in the vice for ease of demonstration. It will do it in the ignition of the bike and would also easily do it if you grabbed the key with pliers. But my fingers are not strong enough to hold it. I note that the force to overcome the detent is quite a bit larger than that needed to turn the C14 ignition switch.
But anyway, I am sure this is designed this way to prevent some bonehead from twisting the key off either accidentally or intentionally.
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I'm still of the opinion that someone messed with it while you were away. They tried to either start the bike or take the key and failing that, left it between detents which is how you found it. I'm sure the actual resistance of the mechanism varies. It wasn't as hard as you might think and I only clamped it in the vice for ease of demonstration. It will do it in the ignition of the bike and would also easily do it if you grabbed the key with pliers. But my fingers are not strong enough to hold it. I note that the force to overcome the detent is quite a bit larger than that needed to turn the C14 ignition switch.
But anyway, I am sure this is designed this way to prevent some bonehead from twisting the key off either accidentally or intentionally.
It's possible someone messed with it, but somewhat unlikely. I deliberately park the bike where not less than 3 cameras are constantly trained on that spot. (It's why I park there.) No, I haven't reviewed the video, but I may.