Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Surf Concours on April 29, 2016, 12:32:56 PM
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Hating my 2012 Concours 14 stock exhaust due to looks & weight. Does anyone know which aftermarket (Two Brothers, Vance & Hines, Delkevic or Akrapovic) may have a deep, less thrill high pitch sound and not obnoxiously loud? Thank you very much, Kevin
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Hating my 2012 Concours 14 stock exhaust due to looks & weight. Does anyone know which aftermarket (Two Brothers, Vance & Hines, Delkevic or Akrapovic) may have a deep, less thrill high pitch sound and not obnoxiously loud? Thank you very much, Kevin
Welcome!
Can we assume you are hating the muffler and not the exhaust? If so (which is likely) there are dozens and dozens of threads about this topic already including this recent one with the same question: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21191.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21191.0) (which was posted to, and still remains in, the wrong forum).
Searching with http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search3 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2) will yield a plethora (I love that word) of reading materials for your enjoyment!
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Very happy with my Area P full exhaust!
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Very happy with my Area P full exhaust!
If looks and sound are your primary concerns you should be happy with the Area P slip-on.
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I just put on a 18" CF oval Delkevic slip on and like it allot.
Now, not only do I have a bike with a powerful engine, I have a bike that has a powerful sounding engine.
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im running a two brothers black with the DB reducer, I do like the black carbon fiber look, but cant say it was a performance enhancer.
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im running a two brothers black with the DB reducer, I do like the black carbon fiber look, but cant say it was a performance enhancer.
That's because replacing the muffler doesn't enhance performance [in any meaningful way] :)
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Hating my 2012 Concours 14 stock exhaust due to looks & weight. Does anyone know which aftermarket (Two Brothers, Vance & Hines, Delkevic or Akrapovic) may have a deep, less thrill high pitch sound and not obnoxiously loud? Thank you very much, Kevin
I've got a Beowulf. Nice deep sound
https://www.facebook.com/beowulfperformance/ (https://www.facebook.com/beowulfperformance/)
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That's because replacing the muffler doesn't enhance performance [in any meaningful way] :)
I never expected it too on this bike, but the ecu flash certainly did.
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I never expected it too on this bike,
Not just this bike, but most any modern bike, or car. This isn't 20 or 30 years ago.
but the ecu flash certainly did.
Indeed it does.
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Delkavic 17" tri oval, sounds great! Not too loud, and 100% better looking/sounding than stock!
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Yes test show 3 HP range.
http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/exhaust-systems-shootout-smoking-pipes (http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/exhaust-systems-shootout-smoking-pipes)
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Yes test show 3 HP range.
If you believe that test (I am very skeptical, in general). But most importantly, that test is for the ZX-14, which has a larger exhaust AND intake system... so the results are not applicable to the Concours at all. And even if it were, 3hp is so small, it might even fall in the two standard deviations range of measurement error or variation. Thus, even super-optimistically, it fails what I would say is "meaningful" (hence my disclaimer). And some replacement mufflers might even lower performance.
People need to not delude themselves. Noise is not power. And on the Concours, replacing the muffler does not improve performance in any meaningful way. A tiny amount of weight savings (when compared to total bike weight), yes. A possible appearance improvement, yes- depending on what one likes. As part of a full exhaust system replacement- essential (because that is when you can start making real gains).
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Your skeptical of anything that disproves your theory,
The bigger header pipes started in 2012, this test was Jan 2011 , I just measured my header (ZX 14 2008) and the od is 1.5 "
If you think 3hp is meaningless you have never raced anything but your finger tips
No after market muffler could be more restrictive than stock , hence higher performance .
I've been drag racing outboard drag boats for 20 years , one of their classes is called Lake Racer , they have many motors that one could use , they keep everyone equal by weight
After the race the top 4 boats get weighed with the driver in the boat, believe me 10 pounds is a big deal even at a total weight of 1,540 lb.
I have been DQed because I was 1 pound under.
I use the two brothers cans because they make three different restrictors , I like quite so I use the most restrictive , but there is two of them so less backpressure .
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The bigger header pipes started in 2012, this test was Jan 2011 , I just measured my header (ZX 14 2008) and the od is 1.5 "
So you are saying that the stock 2008 ZX 14 header and all the exhaust piping are the same flow as the stock C14? If my memory serves correctly, the ZX 14 (all years) is dual exhaust... so the math gets very complicated if one wants to compare total volumetric flow through the whole system.
If you think 3hp is meaningless you have never raced anything but your finger tips
Alone, it is pretty meaningless to me, yes. As part of a collection other mods, it might mean something. Otherwise, it is something like 2%. To me that is pretty meaningless (and it is true that I am not a racer, but if I were, I doubt I would notice 2%).
No after market muffler could be more restrictive than stock , hence higher performance .
That is making the assumption that it matters if the aftermarket is less restrictive. Because that forces one to assume the muffler is more restrictive than the rest of the system. If you have a 6 feet of 1" diameter water hose and cut off the last foot and replace it with 2" hose, the rate of water going through the system is the same. Conversely, I do not believe Kawasaki would replace that last 1 foot with [the restriction equivalent of a] 3/4" hose... makes no sense. The stock muffler is closely matched to the rest of the stock exhaust system.
After the race the top 4 boats get weighed with the driver in the boat, believe me 10 pounds is a big deal even at a total weight of 1,540 lb. I have been DQed because I was 1 pound under.
:) I gain and lose 10 pounds here and there on my body (unfortunately). Again, if one were trying to turn the C14 into a race bike and went through and ripped off all the accessories and replaced other stuff with things each weighing a bit less (likely spending several thousand $ in the process)... sure, it will add up to something significant (and also likely losing the "touring" part of "sports touring"). But just a 10 pound savings on the muffler without lots of other weight reductions? That is 1%, wet with rider. Yawn.
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Good discussion going on here...
My two cents..
I don't run the stock muffler anymore. I thought it was ugly and I changed it to a carbon fiber Area P. I couldn't tell the difference in the power curve and as I wear earplugs, I can barely hear the louder tone. I didn't install it for any perceived power gain. I just wanted to look marvelous.. :banana ::)
A 3HP gain on our bike is nearly meaningless, as far as I'm concerned, considering the amount we have already. On a bike used for competition, however, it could mean the difference between winning and losing.
To each his own. It's wonderful that we have a platform that can be modified as much as it can be.
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Yesterdays Dyno results:
Stock Exhaust = 134.6 HP / Torque 89.3
18" Delkevic CF Oval (with baffle) = 133.5 / Torque 89.5
18" Delkevic CF Oval (no baffle) = 138.1 / Torque 91.0
Going from the stock exhaust made my bike look better, made it 20 lbs lighter and gave me an
additional 3.5 HP and 1.7 lbs of torque.
I call that a, win .. win .. win!!
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2 questions, any other mods? and how loud without the baffle at highway speeds? Earplug loud, Harley loud or ? Thanks
Wayne
Yesterdays Dyno results:
Stock Exhaust = 134.6 HP / Torque 89.3
18" Delkevic CF Oval (with baffle) = 133.5 / Torque 89.5
18" Delkevic CF Oval (no baffle) = 138.1 / Torque 91.0
Going from the stock exhaust made my bike look better, made it 20 lbs lighter and gave me an
additional 3.5 HP and 1.7 lbs of torque.
I call that a, win .. win .. win!!
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2 questions, any other mods? and how loud without the baffle at highway speeds? Earplug loud, Harley loud or ? Thanks
Wayne
SISF's ECU flash is only other performance mod.
I leave for work at 5:15 am and have asked my wife if the bike wakes her up leaving the driveway, and she tells me she has never heard me leave. The sound is much deeper sounding than stock but not really loud till you want it to be.
It sounds great when you get on it but cruising down the highway at 70 to 80 mph I don't think it bothers anyone driving near me. My guess is that they can now hear me but not in an annoying way, nothing like a V-twin.
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Yesterdays Dyno results:
Interesting that the baffle made it almost 1hp worse than stock. Of course (and again), there is going to be variance in the readings with each run (margin of error). The nice part is you did it using all the same equipment and very close to the same time- which helps to eliminate weather and equipment variance. Although the resulting number will vary from one dyno to another, you are comparing before/after, which doesn't introduce that error.
Thanks for sharing!
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I just put on a 18" CF oval Delkevic slip on and like it allot.
Now, not only do I have a bike with a powerful engine, I have a bike that has a powerful sounding engine.
I have the same. I thought I was buying the same as my brother, he has the tri-oval which is cooler looking but about $50 more, so I am ok with mine. Sounds better, looks better, handles better (to me, anyway) and with the SISF, it just totally changed the character of the bike. Very nice and my slip on was only about $260 or so?
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I will be ditching the Area P slip on, and going with an early ZX14 header with Area P carbon fiber ZX14 duals. Just ordered them yesterday and chomping at the bit to get them hung! A Shoodaben flash will be very soon to follow!
(http://www.areapnolimits.com/images/product/zx14_cf_big.jpg)
can't wait!
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I thought I'd add that I like the stock exhaust (maybe I'm the first to say it?). It's very quiet so when I ride, I don't have to turn the volume way up (possibly to damaging levels) in my helmet to listen to music and gps directions.
Just something to think about.
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I thought I'd add that I like the stock exhaust (maybe I'm the first to say it?).
You are far from the first. I say it all the time, and have since I bought it in 2011. Although few people complain about the exhaust [system] just the muffler. I find it looks and sounds just fine (as long as the bags are on... which in my case is all the time).
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I too like the stock muffler,quiet,and the fact that it has a exhaust shield directly under the rider's foot rest is a big plus when riding in the hot conditions in Queensland Australia.
It does look a bit fugley,but when you fit MC Enterprises canyon bars and take of the side panniers off than you have a really fugley look with the rear bars sticking out.But I always leave the side panniers on all the time unless I am washing the bike,the whole deal looks fine.Some of those after market slip ons look cheap and a after thought when the panniers are removed IMHO.
But IMHO the standard muffler certainly is well engineered in terms of power loss compared to after market slip ons considering there is very little if any power increase it would seem with slip ons,just a lighter wallet,more noise and a perception of a better looking bike.
But what ever floats your boat.
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It seems that some folks who are still running the stock exhaust always mention how loud aftermarket cans are. I have the Area P CF slip on and the only time it gets loud is when I want it to be loud, as in when I 'get on it', then it screams. If I don't get on it it's very sedate and on par with the stocker.
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I couldn't care less about making noise, but I detested the stock can the moment I saw this bike in the magazines in 2007. As soon as I could afford it, I went for the quietest and, to my taste (my bike), nicest can I could find: a Remus Hexacone. Just amazing, subtle while cruising, baritone when opening up. And the 1 HP extra (Remus claims +2.5 HP, magazines measured a bit less) combined with the 10 lb diet, just round up the subjective pleasure I get from it.
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I couldn't care less about making noise, but I detested the stock can the moment I saw this bike in the magazines in 2007. As soon as I could afford it, I went for the quietest and, to my taste (my bike), nicest can I could find: a Remus Hexacone. Just amazing, subtle while cruising, baritone when opening up. And the 1 HP extra (Remus claims +2.5 HP, magazines measured a bit less) combined with the 10 lb diet, just round up the subjective pleasure I get from it.
+1 just installed my Remus Hexacone I think it has the cleanest mounting system and best look overall. I also considered the CS one and Scorpion
all the slip-on exhaust dynos ive seen (delkevic etc.) show gains at the high end of the rpms but losses down low, performance is not really a decision factor for mufflers unless you are racing it. If you are racing you want the smallest least restrictive pipe possible
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My Beowulf..........sounds nice....................easy fit ...............value for money
URL=http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/CharlieA380/media/GTR%20K16/image_zpsd1d6hey4.jpeg.html](http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/CharlieA380/GTR%20K16/image_zpsd1d6hey4.jpeg)[/URL]
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Regarding the Remus and Beowulf slip ons ,do create a "popping noise"on deceleration? They are both good looking exhausts,suit the bike.
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Regarding the Remus and Beowulf slip ons ,do create a "popping noise"on deceleration? They are both good looking exhausts,suit the bike.
I have noticed 0 popping noise, I have the baffle in.
The hexacone has a unique six sided design hence HEX in the name. I like how it mounts without a strap around the muffler like must slip ons, and it looks really trick with the baffle out.
On the C14 I think the only way you could go wrong is to put fish tail pipes on it :rotflmao:
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Wait wait! Someone makes FISHTAILS for the C14!!?? Who? Take my money!!!!!!
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Fish tail tips for Muzzys? I'm in too.
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Fishtails on lovely mermaids? I'll take a dozen of those. ::)
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Wait wait! Someone makes FISHTAILS for the C14!!?? Who? Take my money!!!!!!
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
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It seems that some folks who are still running the stock exhaust always mention how loud aftermarket cans are. I have the Area P CF slip on and the only time it gets loud is when I want it to be loud, as in when I 'get on it', then it screams. If I don't get on it it's very sedate and on par with the stocker.
I concur. Just put on the Area P CF slip on and I like it. It does rip-snort when I get on it, but it's quiet otherwise. Just a little decel pop, but doesn't bother me. Blows the stocker away on looks and weight. I'm pleased; high value addition to the bike.
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I concur. Just put on the Area P CF slip on and I like it. It does rip-snort when I get on it, but it's quiet otherwise. Just a little decel pop, but doesn't bother me. Blows the stocker away on looks and weight. I'm pleased; high value addition to the bike.
I actually like the decel pop, it's more like a burble/rumble on my bike.
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+1
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Went from Area P stainless to Area P CF single that will soon be an Area P CF dual through a ZX14 header. LOVE the sound of the CF can!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y166/EdRacer71/1056DBA9-E6C2-469E-9CA3-3BC2EDA244C9_zps2ehghkfd.jpg)
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Looks good, a few questions:
1.Do you have a p3/v fitted?
2.Area P claim an increase in power with standard fuel mapping, do you noticed any difference in response, power or fuel economy?
Area P Dyno Claim:
Slip-On - Power increase starts immediately from 2500 rpm and carries through peak at 9250 rpm. Very linear. Increase was 5.62 horsepower and 4.68 foot pound torque. The chart shows runs with the 18" muffler/2.0" core. The stock fuel curve was slightly lean in spots up to about 8000 rpm, then rich on top end. Although not required, It may benefit with the addition of a PC3/V.
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Haven't done anything with the mapping yet, but, the next stop will be to Shoodabeen engineering.
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Look, effectively there's not going to be any difference in flow on all the major slipons out there, providing they have the average 2" core. All this other stuff about what slipon is best is arguing minutiae.
When I changed the stock muffler to an area p slip on (borrowed), I noticed a SLIGHT sharpness in throttle response. SLIGHT. And all of the factory jetting is to rich, so a slip on without tuning is still to rich. BTW, I know what I'm talking about... I have datalogged hours of ride date with a WB02.
There's a place where SOP dyno's just aren't going to notice a difference. it's hard to tell a couple HP, particularly at higher rpm.
Keep in mind that I can gain / lose 3 hp on my bike by doing absolutely nothing but changing the dyno readings from SAE to STD. Dyno work, for the uninitiated is a big game, and y'all are playing right into it.
Back when drag racing was king, there was a saying "win on sunday, sell on monday". That's been replaced by dyno charts. Post up big dyno numbers and you'll sell product. Never mind that that info doesn't tell you anything about the real world manners or the engine, you NEED those extra 3 hp at 9000, right? And that slip on only costs 500.00 so hey, that's a good deal, right? ::) ::)
Steve
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I think it's a good deal. Even though I might not notice shedding 15 pounds on a 700lb bike (2%), in my mind it HAS to be a good thing. That OE can was a pig; still is a pig sitting in my office. Bike looks better with the smaller, sleeker, CF shell can. Bike HAS to be breathing better because of the increased exhaust pressure that can be felt from several feet away. Right? Bike sounds better. I didn't think I would care about this since I don't care for loud bikes and didn't want to ruin quiet cruising. But mine is the best of both worlds; has a great tone when accelerating but is still quiet when cruising. Pipe is a nice little accessory that makes me feel good. I bought the flash before the pipe, so I... am safe.
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BTW, to those of you with slipons and my flash, who have that nice decel rumble rather than multiple loud firecracker pops on deceleration... you're welcome :chugbeer: Steve
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I actually like the decel pop, it's more like a burble/rumble on my bike.
+1
I love the nice decel pop/burble/rumble thingy going on. I kept the baffle on (TÜV wouldn't allow otherwise) on my Remus.
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My Speed Triple has the Triumph OEM/aftermarket high pipes with "Triumph" etched on them, with the flash specifically for them. There are multiple flashes to choose from and this one runs perfect and has just the right amount of backtalk when you roll off the throttle. That triple rumbling and popping occasionally is the best engine sound ever, it just states quite clearly its level of power, that it's not to be messed with. I like the C14 with the slipon when it's on song and pulling hard, but on decel, there is no better sound than that S3. I get compliments on it all the time.
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Look, effectively there's not going to be any difference in flow on all the major slipons out there, providing they have the average 2" core. All this other stuff about what slipon is best is arguing minutiae.
When I changed the stock muffler to an area p slip on (borrowed), I noticed a SLIGHT sharpness in throttle response. SLIGHT. And all of the factory jetting is to rich, so a slip on without tuning is still to rich. BTW, I know what I'm talking about... I have datalogged hours of ride date with a WB02.
There's a place where SOP dyno's just aren't going to notice a difference. it's hard to tell a couple HP, particularly at higher rpm.
Keep in mind that I can gain / lose 3 hp on my bike by doing absolutely nothing but changing the dyno readings from SAE to STD. Dyno work, for the uninitiated is a big game, and y'all are playing right into it.
Back when drag racing was king, there was a saying "win on sunday, sell on monday". That's been replaced by dyno charts. Post up big dyno numbers and you'll sell product. Never mind that that info doesn't tell you anything about the real world manners or the engine, you NEED those extra 3 hp at 9000, right? And that slip on only costs 500.00 so hey, that's a good deal, right? ::) ::)
Steve
So Steve from the above information am I correct in assuming that the original factory fuel mapping is to rich with the standard muffler,and going past maximum power air/fuel ratio,that a slip on does not lean off the mixture at all,that it only creates another concern by reducing back pressure?
Please forgive my ignorance but I am just and old mechanic from back in the carby days.
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So Steve from the above information am I correct in assuming that the original factory fuel mapping is to rich with the standard muffler,and going past maximum power air/fuel ratio,that a slip on does not lean off the mixture at all,that it only creates another concern by reducing back pressure?
Please forgive my ignorance but I am just and old mechanic from back in the carby days.
alright, let's use some critical thinking, if a slipon only gains a very small increase in power, then do you think the stock muffler is the main impediment to exhaust flow? Steve
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alright, let's use some critical thinking, if a slipon only gains a very small increase in power, then do you think the stock muffler is the main impediment to exhaust flow? Steve
We have both said it perhaps a dozen times now. The stock muffler performs very well and is not a significant restriction point when using the stock headers and pipes. It is sized correctly for the rest of the exhaust system. Replacing it does nothing significant for performance on the C14; it is a cosmetic change only (looks/sound/weight).
If one wants to reduce restriction/back-pressure, it requires replacing the exhaust system (not just one part of it), and THAT will require a change in the fuel injection maps/programming (and on the C14, it can deliver significant performance improvements).
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Cause you have Maxtog, that answer will do me.
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I haven't posted much about this anywhere, but I built a small diameter long tube header on my 09 that had CRAZY low / mid rpm power. I was looking at the dyno chart from it last night, it had over 90# TQ at 3000rpm with my flash . 3000rpm... and pulled over 100#TQ at 6000 rpm. It did not get the same top hp as the area p... but it did get to 148.xx with a 2" diameter slipon (2 bros) . For comparison my bike stock had about 70# @ 3000, and 82# @ 3000 after the flash.
So it's obvious that the stock header is the impediment to power. Maxtog states it properly when he says the stock muffler is properly sized for the flow of the stock head pipe. Steve
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It may be properly sized on the inside, but the outskirts could use some work.
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I haven't posted much about this anywhere, but I built a small diameter long tube header on my 09 that had CRAZY low / mid rpm power. I was looking at the dyno chart from it last night, it had over 90# TQ at 3000rpm with my flash . 3000rpm... and pulled over 100#TQ at 6000 rpm. It did not get the same top hp as the area p... but it did get to 148.xx with a 2" diameter slipon (2 bros) . For comparison my bike stock had about 70# @ 3000, and 82# @ 3000 after the flash.
So it's obvious that the stock header is the impediment to power. Maxtog states it properly when he says the stock muffler is properly sized for the flow of the stock head pipe. Steve
Apples to oranges I know, but back in my Yamaha days, the EXUP valve was huge to rideability, low, and mid range power and torque. My 99 was a lot more fun to drive before I did a full system, but it did pick up 15 plus HP up top. My 04 was similiar, but that engine along with adding FI had a totally different power band. I chased dyno numbers for years, and I think useable power, and torque where its needed is where its at. I would be way excited to add 20 ft # especially down low. I havent had my Kawi long, but I definitely want to do the flash just for whats mentioned above.