Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: PlaynInPeoria on February 22, 2016, 10:40:45 AM
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2012, 36k, got the valves checked, plugs and coolant replaced. The valves were not adjusted as they were fine. Now my bike is blowing oil out the side, not to the point where the oil is low but it's not something I am comfortable with.
I have done some searching on here and lord there are a lot of threads on valve cover leaks and cam sensor leaks but out of all of them, I can't tell where MY leak might be coming from.
My goal in posting is to try and use the collective wisdom here to see if, given the info in the picture, can it be determined if it's the valve cover or the cam sensor, or something else.
I'm also trying to figure out if I should take this back to the dealer. It's an hour drive to take it, then go get it later. I have to yank the tank anyway to replace the internal filter in the fuel pump. Normally, it's bad work and I would just take it back. I actually really like the mechanic, I know him personally, I raced hare scrambles with him for several years, he's good, in my opinion. BUT i have smelled oil since right after I got it back. It was 62 around here yesterday and I took it out and flogged with the a buddy, he just bought a Mulitstrada and we drag raced multiple times.
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Are you positive its oil and not coolant?
I would take it back and make them address it.
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It's hard to tell for sure from that pic but are you SURE your front fork seals aren't blown? I say that because the oil appears to from in front of the Tupperware.
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That's a lot of freakin oil! What did he do, pour it over the bike? :yikes:
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I actually didn't touch it or even look at it, I'm ashamed to say. I know what burning oil and coolant smell like and it smelled like oil and looked like oil also.
So let's assume it's oil, is that from the cam sensor location?
If you look at the exhaust stud bolt, it appears to be covered in oil. I will chase it down more tonight. I have bore scope like device that hooks to my cell phone and will take pictures.
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It's hard to tell for sure from that pic but are you SURE your front fork seals aren't blown? I say that because the oil appears to from in front of the Tupperware.
That's why I asked about coolant, it appears to far forward and low to be oil from the engine. I know when I had my valves adjusted recently the mechanic removed the radiator, so maybe a coolant hose is loose or leaking.
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My valve cover gasket and cam seal were leaking pretty badly when I got my C14 and nothing was on the outside of the plastic bodywork. And being a lifelong Harley owner, I have a firm grasp on oil leaks. ::)
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I actually didn't touch it or even look at it, I'm ashamed to say. I know what burning oil and coolant smell like and it smelled like oil and looked like oil also.
So let's assume it's oil, is that from the cam sensor location?
If you look at the exhaust stud bolt, it appears to be covered in oil. I will chase it down more tonight. I have bore scope like device that hooks to my cell phone and will take pictures.
cam sensor o ring is on the opposite side of the engine, and drips on pipe #2
that looks like valve cover gasket not sealing, oil on that exhaust header clamp is pretty visible and wet.
thats a lot of oil.
$750 for that service ain't acceptable... take it back right now. make sure they don't charge you for the gasket either, and they completly clean and degrease everything.... what a pain.
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could it be something as simple as the oil filter not sealing?
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could it be something as simple as the oil filter not sealing?
opposite side and low also... do you guys have any idea of these locations before posting this stuff??
just asking.. ::)
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The dealership is open tomorrow, I will call them up to give them the great news.
I wonder if perhaps the collective wisdom on this here is greater than what my friend the mechanic possesses? There are SO many exhaust leak threads, would someone please do me a large favor and summarize the method for properly sealing this?
I wonder if I should have him do the cam sensor while he is in there? Would that be wise? From what I understand, it's not if it leaks but WHEN.
I do appreciate all the help!!
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As bad as that looks, it could be that they forgot to tighten a bolt somewhere on the valve cover or even left it off. The only way to tell is to take the plastic off on that side and have a thorough look. I'd be scared to ride the bike if it was leaking that bad.
You know, coolant and oil smell differently. I'm pretty sure PiP knows the difference.
Exhaust leak?
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The dealership is open tomorrow, I will call them up to give them the great news.
I wonder if perhaps the collective wisdom on this here is greater than what my friend the mechanic possesses? There are SO many exhaust leak threads, would someone please do me a large favor and summarize the method for properly sealing this?
I wonder if I should have him do the cam sensor while he is in there? Would that be wise? From what I understand, it's not if it leaks but WHEN.
I do appreciate all the help!!
the cam sensor o ring is on the farside of the engine from your photo, I have sent out hundreds of these O rings. If it is a Kaw certified repair facility, it is unlikely they will install the o-rings I sell now. They must use OEM stock, for certified service, unfortunately those rings are undersized, and will leak just like the one that came from the factory... no joy on your part when paying them.. Contact me and I can send you 2 rings for $1.
as for how the repair to seal the major leak you are seeing, It may be a combination of a few things, maybe they neglected to add the correct sealant to the sections as noted when reassembling the cover, maybe it was not tightened down correctly, maybe the existing rubber gasket was never cleaned, or mating surfaces cleaned, or the gasket itself was damaged or compromised, or the seal rings on the bolts holding the cover were compromised and or damaged/compressed beyond their ability to reseal. Or, all of the above. Bare minimum would have been to remove the existing cover gasket, completely seal the head mating surface to remove all oil from seal surface, remove the gasket seal from the cover, and clean it completely with a solvent, and also the groove in the cover where it gets re-installed using a minimal amount of flexible proper sealant to adhere and help seal this gasket to the cover at installation. Many of us here versed in these services have re installed the same gasket that came on the bike from factory, one or more times, with no issues when proper service procedures were followed as outlined.
so, yes, there are a few of us here that do have higher skill levels than your tech has exhibited.
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oh, in addition... you not 36k on the bike, where the valve adjusted or inspected prior to this?
I say this because if not, and you were told no adjustment was needed, welll. Im calling your tech a hack.
I simply cannot believe you were "fine" with respect to service limits.
NOW, when you return this bike for service, demand a shim clearance map based on an inspection when he removes the valve cover for gasket repair, don't ask for a map, demand it.
You need a map showing exactly what every clearance on each valve is currently. without it, everytime you have valves inspected, they will have to repeat this procedure, and remove the cams, and record every shim, to ascertain the correct shims for future services on any gap out of spec.
we see this all the time, simply because they dont want to take the time to really inspect the clearances... how long did they have the bike? How many hours billed for that service?
heres a link to a fellow COG members him map... Download it...
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34643.0;attach=5952 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34643.0;attach=5952)
note; it an excell spreadsheet, you can replace values to make it work, or simply make everything blanks, and calculate manually and fill in the measurements and data for simple recording.
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Exhaust leak?
Yeah, as in valve cover leak? You don't own the PiP English to idiocy dictionary?
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oh, in addition... you not 36k on the bike, where the valve adjusted or inspected prior to this?
I say this because if not, and you were told no adjustment was needed, welll. Im calling your tech a hack.
I simply cannot believe you were "fine" with respect to service limits.
I agree. I just had mine done at 23K and all of my intakes were tight and 3 exhaust were tight and needed adjusted. Hard to believe nothing needed adjusted.
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oh, in addition... you not 36k on the bike, where the valve adjusted or inspected prior to this?
I say this because if not, and you were told no adjustment was needed, welll. Im calling your tech a hack.
I simply cannot believe you were "fine" with respect to service limits.
NOW, when you return this bike for service, demand a shim clearance map based on an inspection when he removes the valve cover for gasket repair, don't ask for a map, demand it.
You need a map showing exactly what every clearance on each valve is currently. without it, everytime you have valves inspected, they will have to repeat this procedure, and remove the cams, and record every shim, to ascertain the correct shims for future services on any gap out of spec.
we see this all the time, simply because they dont want to take the time to really inspect the clearances... how long did they have the bike? How many hours billed for that service?
heres a link to a fellow COG members him map... Download it...
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34643.0;attach=5952 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34643.0;attach=5952)
note; it an excell spreadsheet, you can replace values to make it work, or simply make everything blanks, and calculate manually and fill in the measurements and data for simple recording.
I asked for that map and was told it was already done and buttoned back up. So yeah, that sucked.
I can ask them to eat the oil leak and I suspect they will have to remove the gasket to do it but checking all the valves and making a map, well, that I may have to pay for. So now I'm in a tough spot in that I have to potentially call a guy I consider a friend (or a buddy, anyway) a liar. I am not arguing with what you are saying.
FYI, about $750 and all I got were new plugs, coolant and a valve check. So I wasn't super happy to pay that much and get that little. I would think that some of the valves would need adjusted as I have owned it since day 1 and I redline it all the time. Understand, I am not arguing with what you are saying, I came here to get advice, knowing full well some might not be pleasant.
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I asked for that map and was told it was already done and buttoned back up. So yeah, that sucked.
I can ask them to eat the oil leak and I suspect they will have to remove the gasket to do it but checking all the valves and making a map, well, that I may have to pay for. So now I'm in a tough spot in that I have to potentially call a guy I consider a friend (or a buddy, anyway) a liar. I am not arguing with what you are saying.
FYI, about $750 and all I got were new plugs, coolant and a valve check. So I wasn't super happy to pay that much and get that little. I would think that some of the valves would need adjusted as I have owned it since day 1 and I redline it all the time. Understand, I am not arguing with what you are saying, I came here to get advice, knowing full well some might not be pleasant.
bummer, but you forgot one other thing you got for that money... a severe oil leak, that if unchecked could have lit your bike up and burned it to the ground, maybe even in your garage, and ....welll you get the picture...?
you are in a tight place, and I feel for ya, but then again, have to ask...
Is this guy realllly a friend or just some fellow you associate with?
Does he OWN the facility you went to? Is it a Certified Kaw Service facility?
I have lots of "pals", that do favours, but getting b/plugged for $750, on that service, ain't a friend.
I've spoken with about 20+ different CERTIFIED Kaw service facilities, about process of valve inspection, roughly 50% actually told me that during the INSPECTION they are required to record the clearances they find, to document the decisions on adjustment to Kaw.
The rest said "Oh, we shove the feeler in there, if it fits its good, why should we record WHAT didn't fit,"?
yeah, they were actually violating Kaw policy on service by that. But then again, by the time your bike sucks a burnt valve thru, and you try to collect it's repair on your extended service contract, that dealer will have shut down, and the building demolished.
I know its tough to face someone off that you seem to trust, but by your tone, you really don't trust them, and your conscious should guide you... face them off, tell them why... if they are your friend, they will understand, if they give you lip, and lollygag about it, while looking at the floor, make them stand up and do the job...
I just keeps pizzing me off seeing this service thing year after year. Too bad you don't live near me, I have your bike on my lift, stripped down, and clearances written in blood to prove they hosed you all for free.
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It's a dealership for all 4 major brands.
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It's a dealership for all 4 major brands.
if so, they have to run the standards of the associated manufacturers directives on related services, which in this case warrant them to record the actual clearances found during inspection, and forward same to Kaw as proof of service, and to backup future warranty claims service was completed within the outlined liabilities of Kawasaki.. I don't care what the tech says, that's the procedure.
hope this helps.
Semper Fi
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It could be just me, or a trick of lighting, but the liquid appears to have a green cast to it. That would tend to mean coolant.
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Yeah, as in valve cover leak? You don't own the PiP English to idiocy dictionary?
You mentioned an exhaust leak out of the blue. Should have nothing to do with the valve check. Was it already leaking or you just want to tighten up the exhaust header nuts? They do get loose, especially right from the factory as they were never tightened correctly in the plant. Getting to them is a PITA, but it can be done without total disassembly of the bike.
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I feel for the OP...got a botched job, and it cost him $750.
But I don't know if I'd want the same hacks going back into my bike that botched it the first time...it might turn out even worse than before.
Regrettably, with rare exceptions, the only real solution is DIY.
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You mentioned an exhaust leak out of the blue. Should have nothing to do with the valve check. Was it already leaking or you just want to tighten up the exhaust header nuts? They do get loose, especially right from the factory as they were never tightened correctly in the plant. Getting to them is a PITA, but it can be done without total disassembly of the bike.
No clue why I said exhaust leak, that was a brain fart. I have no exhaust leak.
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Isn't a fart, brain or otherwise, an exhaust leak?
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:rotflmao:
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I've spoken with about 20+ different CERTIFIED Kaw service facilities, about process of valve inspection, roughly 50% actually told me that during the INSPECTION they are required to record the clearances they find, to document the decisions on adjustment to Kaw.
The rest said "Oh, we shove the feeler in there, if it fits its good, why should we record WHAT didn't fit,"?
I found a Mama Kaw customer service #. I am going to contact them and ask them, "When I get my valves adjusted, what should I walk out the door with, per Kawasaki policy?". If they say, "a bill/service record AND a clearance map", I will hold the dealer's feet to the fire and get it for free. If it's not in fact policy, then that is kinda on me for not making it clear up front that I wanted that. I would think that they would make it when doing it (I know I would), but that's just my opinion and they are not duty bound to to do things that I didn't tell them up front I wanted, they're not mind readers.
I would do it today but you have to have the VIN to do it, and I don't have that here at work. If it is NOT a requirement by Mama Kaw, I will try to get them to check the valves again and provide a gauge map. It's the least they can do for failing miserably on the work. They may try to weasel out of it and I may offer to pay them for half an hour of labor.
That opens another can of worms. They say the valves were fine. Hypothetically, if in fact they were not fine and the mechanic I like just didn't feel like doing it, now what's to stop them from just making up numbers? Because if in fact, now they are out of spec, they have to adjust them and that's egg on their face. Plus they would have to come back to me for more money, which would not make my day as I already paid them for it.
Yet another example of why I avoid dealerships.
Something just occurred to me. I have a friend who works for Honda as a warranty rep. He approves or denies warranty work and this shop is in his territory. I will ask him what the Honda policy is and what his expectations would be. Not sure he will even know, his line is warranty, not everyday service. And he's Honda, not Kawasaki. Plus, he's another 'friend' and now I am putting him with my friendship on one side and the place that pays his mortgage on the other. Dammit.
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We're pretty sure that they went into it as they left something not right. I get my valves checked with a dealer and it cost me about $350. Of course they aren't replacing shims and they do give me the shim map, but then I asked for it before the service started.
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don't get me wrong here, I did not say they were obligated to give you a copy of the map, but they were obligated to record those numbers on the work order during the service, how else could they as a dealership for Kaw, coverthemselves if valves or cam damage occurs?
you do get my point?
just make sure to purchase an extended KPP warranty plan,
cheap insurance at this point, and you will not have to worry if it grenades....
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=225.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=225.0)
you paid them already for the valve inspection, that is clear by the $$$$ you were charged, and they most likely did remove the cover, clearly evident by the massive leak, they are responsible for fixing this free of charge, and id press them to make a map while repairing their botch, out of compensation for the botched job already, as you say, doing the map should only take a half hour.... its just sticking feeler gauge and writing the numbers down, even at a snails pace of one lobe per two minutes, its a half hour.
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Maybe the extended warranty is another topic entirely but mine was at least $600 every time, like $500 for one year, $600 for 2 and etc, I forget the actual numbers. That's not cheap? I threw them away.
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Maybe the extended warranty is another topic entirely but mine was at least $600 every time, like $500 for one year, $600 for 2 and etc, I forget the actual numbers. That's not cheap? I threw them away.
yes, the thread I noted above is for a greatly reduced price, thru a dealer in Richmond Va., and personal friend. He has extended this offer to us at $383, for 36 months, and it is the bonafied kawasaki KPP plan.
You can get two extensions total, giving you covereage for a total of 9 years from original bike purchase, this is only available if you have a current warrenty, i.e. it has not expired.
I worked with him to get this for us, and he has been great at keeping the price low now for many years. take advantage of it.
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A very good deal indeed. Doesn't cover maintenance, though.
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Update:
Square 1, I'm out of warranty, so no extended warranty for me. I found it last night and it was nearly $700 for 3 years, that's no deal.
Just talked to dealership, they will fix it and give me a gauge map, $0. Now I just gotta ride it 50 miles over there in 30 degree weather tonight. I could wait for better weather but I want it done so I can ride it. Plus, if they screw it up again, I have plenty of time to fix it someway before actual IL riding season hits.
Updates to follow. I may wimp out tonight, I have to have a riding buddy follow me over. We could trailer it, but that has its own downsides, that sumbitch is heavy and trailering always has the risk of damage.
I may ask about extended warranty deal now that I have them over a bit of a barrel.
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What dealer you using?
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What dealer you using?
World of PowerSports in Bloomington IL, formerly Sportland. WOPS owns dealerships in Bloomington, Peoria and Decatur IL. They started in Decatur.
You're not from my area, are you? I've actually had good luck with them (this mechanic) on things I am too lazy to do myself. I had to have some fork tubes replaced from crash damage on my old FZ1, bird hit me in the head. They also rebuilt some dirt bike forks and bled some stuff a while back before I learned about speed bleeders.
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Many years ago. Don't get up there any more.
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Update:
Square 1, I'm out of warranty, so no extended warranty for me. I found it last night and it was nearly $700 for 3 years, that's no deal.
Just talked to dealership, they will fix it and give me a gauge map, $0. Now I just gotta ride it 50 miles over there in 30 degree weather tonight. I could wait for better weather but I want it done so I can ride it. Plus, if they screw it up again, I have plenty of time to fix it someway before actual IL riding season hits.
Updates to follow. I may wimp out tonight, I have to have a riding buddy follow me over. We could trailer it, but that has its own downsides, that sumbitch is heavy and trailering always has the risk of damage.
I may ask about extended warranty deal now that I have them over a bit of a barrel.
I guess you did not grasp what I noted about extended warranty, and where to buy it from...
as you did not state exactly when your 2012 was purchased, ( i.e. 2012, 2013 or 2014????) I can't say for sure your original warranty is expired, as it begins day of purchase from dealer.
If it is expired, you can't get an extension, if it was purchase less than 36 months ago, you can, but do so from the link I gave... it ain't $700 there...
The only reason I mentioned extended warranty, was because they hosed up the seals, and we don't know they really did the valve inspect and valves were truely within the range, which if they weren't, you would be the brunt of their word against yours on the adjust. best of luck,
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I rode over and dropped it off tonight, the service manager was basically bowing and scraping. He saw my crappy rim protector Shinko rear I got in Arkansas last year when I ran out of tire and wanted to replace it, offered to give me a deal. He's gonna quote me a PR2, they yank the wheel, mount and balance. We'll see. I think they just need service business this time of year.
I asked him about a deal on extended warranty, he said he would check into it. I bought it in January of 2013 and it has just over 36k on it, so we'll see how that goes. He said if they have to yank the valve cover, I get a gauge map. If it doesn't require yanking the cover to fix, I won't. More to come.
Quote from my Honda buddy:
"The Honda policy is the valve clearance should be checked and adjusted if necessary at certain mileage intervals. For shim adjustment valves there is a range the clearance should be between. If the minimum clearance feeler gauge fits in the clearance and the maximum gauge does not it is good. No actual measurement is taken. If it is out of range the shims are changed to get the clearance within the range. There are charts available to record measurements but they are more for calculating adjustments than recording actual clearances. Let me know if you need more. "
The Kaw service manager said pretty much the same thing.
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FYI, I picked it up Saturday. It was a valve cover bolt at the very top, so no valve cover removal required, per the service manager. That means I got no shim map, c'est la vie. It was nicely washed, $0. Reasonably happy ending.
They tried to sell me a tire and something else, they couldn't touch my internet price obviously, so nothing there.