Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: wcgreen on January 22, 2016, 03:56:10 PM
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My 2012 that I just got, currently has 13,700 miles on it. Likely will hit 15k+ around the end of the summer and will either be in FL or TX. Just got the extended 36 month coverage on the bike, and trying to determine if I will check at 15k or 20k. No way I can do it myself, and every dealer I talk to says they don't need it and have never seen a bike with one valve out of spec... makes me very cautious of even letting a dealer touch the valve check. Wondering if any members on here that have lots of experience with the procedure do them for $$$ for other folks on here? Like I said, just curious.
Thanks,
Billy
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My 2012 that I just got, currently has 13,700 miles on it. Likely will hit 15k+ around the end of the summer and will either be in FL or TX. Just got the extended 36 month coverage on the bike, and trying to determine if I will check at 15k or 20k. No way I can do it myself, and every dealer I talk to says they don't need it and have never seen a bike with one valve out of spec... makes me very cautious of even letting a dealer touch the valve check.
I am not sure of your logic, there. The reason they are saying that to you is because most believe the Kawasaki recommended valve check is overly pessimistic (way too soon/short). And it is very possible that every bike they have done at that short interval was 100% in-spec. I am sure the dealer would be happy to take your money and do the work, but they are just warning that, in their experience, it is a waste of money/time/effort to check them that soon. It is not because they are afraid to do it or incompetent.
Many threads on this forum about valve check intervals...
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Well, they were moaning at the amount of work... When mentioned, it was an audible groan., and the fact that folks that do their own checks often find something out of spec and they say they have never seen a valve out of spec... just makes you wonder if they are doing the work properly and just pulling and looking and throwing it all back together asap.
B
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Well, they were moaning at the amount of work...
I have not done it (nor will I) but based on what I have read on the forum and in the factory manual, it is a LOT of work.
When mentioned, it was an audible groan., and the fact that folks that do their own checks often find something out of spec and they say they have never seen a valve out of spec... just makes you wonder if they are doing the work properly and just pulling and looking and throwing it all back together asap.
Good points. Of course, I often wonder if any work is really done properly by shops. I tend to be like you, not very trusting.
I will point out that (based on what I have read/seen/heard) most have not found anything out of spec when checked at the recommended USA interval. Even when it is far past the interval, most find none out of spec. I don't have any hard data, though (one thread started a poll, but it wasn't well worded and sample size wasn't great) . That isn't to say people don't EVER find anything out of spec, or at the edge of just being in spec at the USA interval. It is a kind of gamble in which the odds appear to support waiting longer. If it were easy to do, it wouldn't be a big deal.
One thing to consider- magically, the manuals for non-USA/CDN bikes call for a valve check at 26K miles, not 15K. And those bikes have identical heads, valves, springs, pistons, cams, seats, blocks, etc, etc. So why is it that USA/CDN bikes should be checked at 15K and the same bike sold outside that area are 26K? At a minimum, that would tend to imply 26K is safe, even based on Kawasaki's own recommendations.
There are no easy answers on this topic. (Just the same questions hashed over and over in similar threads :) )
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Last time I was in a KAW shop, I asked the service manager for an estimated cost to check my valves. He responded, "If I give you $1,000, will you please just go away?"
I said he did not want the work under any conditions?
He said: "Correct!"
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I have not done it (nor will I) but based on what I have read on the forum and in the factory manual, it is a LOT of work.
Good points. Of course, I often wonder if any work is really done properly by shops. I tend to be like you, not very trusting.
I will point out that (based on what I have read/seen/heard) few have found anything out of spec when checked at the recommended USA interval. Even when it is far past the interval, most find none out of spec. I don't have any hard data, though (one thread started a poll, but it wasn't well worded and sample size wasn't great) . That isn't to say people don't EVER find anything out of spec, or at the edge of just being in spec at the USA interval. It is a kind of gamble in which the odds appear to overwhelmingly support waiting longer. If it were easy to do, it wouldn't be a big deal.
One thing to consider- magically, the manuals for non-USA/CDN bikes call for a valve check at 25K miles, not 15K. And those bikes have identical heads, valves, springs, pistons, cams, seats, blocks, etc, etc. So why is it that USA/CDN bikes should be checked at 15K and the same bike sold outside that area are 25K? At a minimum, that would tend to imply 25K is safe, even based on Kawasaki's own recommendations.
There are no easy answers on this topic. (Just the same questions hashed over and over in similar threads :) )
Actually if you ask the 3 main people on each of the forums that do many of the valve checks for forum members you will find the opposite, Most bikes have a few out of spec valves !
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Never pay for a Valve 'Check'. They will just 'look' and say it is within spec even though they may all be at the minimum spec. You do not want that.
You want to pay for a Valve Shim adjustment and have a Shim Map made to match.
Always have the valve gaps set to the max clearance specs. This is how you can ride for another 25k miles and not worry if the clearances are now out of spec.
Why pay to have it looked at and nothing done? That is just silly.
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Actually if you ask the 3 main people on each of the forums that do many of the valve checks for forum members you will find the opposite, Most bikes have a few out of spec valves !
But at what INTERVAL? That is the big question.
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But at what INTERVAL? That is the big question.
15-25,000
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i did a valve check at 47000km (~29000miles). the manual that i've got says 42000km for valve check.
out of 8 exhaust valves:
- tight (less than minimum clearance): 2
- loose (more than max clearance): 1
- within limits: 4 were right at the min limit, 1 was close to tight.
out of 8 inlet valves:
- tight: 3
- loose: 0
- within limits: 5, all of them close to tight.
i changed/swapped most of the shims to get clearance right in the middle of the range.
it was a 4-5 day job for me, took things slowly so i don't miss out any steps.
i think this is a job that's worth doing on your own if possible. it's a good learning experience, and you won't take shortcuts on your own bike.
read some posts that one of the long time members here does valve checks for others, can't remember who.
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15-25,000
Exactly. And for every post of someone saying theirs needed adjustment, I can find one that said theirs was fine. Not scientific, just interesting. Here is a pick from 2014 http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=16175.msg197998#msg197998 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=16175.msg197998#msg197998) "I had my 2008 ABS in for it's first valve adjustment at 112,000 miles, and was told that the valves were still in spec." Yet in the same thread there was someone else posting that at 25K they had all 16 "out of or at the edge of tolerance".
On this thread: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2375.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2375.0) The poll had 30 of 53 (57%) reporting that at 15K they were in spec. On another thread, a poll reported 12 of 23 (53%) that everything was in spec, but the interval wasn't addressed (so it was at ANY mileage, that could be 15k, 26k, 30k, 50k, whatever).
If you can find a bike that was out of spec at 15K, does that mean the recommended interval was too short or too long? So how does that impact Kawasaki's recommendation to the rest of the world for it being 26K? I like the say B.D.F. says it:
"There is absolutely nothing wrong with following the maintenance schedule set forth by Kawasaki for US bikes. I am simply saying that there are other considerations that may make disregarding the suggested intervals and using other intervals perfectly sound and reasonable."
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Interesting thread. I'm coming up on 22,000 with no valve check yet. I plan to go the Euro route and push it to 25K. At that point, like the original poster, I need to find somebody other than a dealer to do it. Fred's over in SW Ft. Worth. I may try to hook up with him if I can figure out a way to get the bike over there for a few days. I have yet to read about a C14 that's running bad because of tight valves. I think that says something about the whole issue. Ride Long...Ride Safe.
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I think the answer to the OP's question is YES.
I believe there are at least 3 members in different areas who will work on members bikes.
Billy, reach out and ask. I don't know what they would charge but would guess that it would be less than a dealer.
And you would also know that the person working on your bike is someone who cares about them, most likely owning one them self.
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Exactly. And for every post of someone saying theirs needed adjustment, I can find one that said theirs was fine. Not scientific, just interesting. Here is a pick from 2014 http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=16175.msg197998#msg197998 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=16175.msg197998#msg197998) "I had my 2008 ABS in for it's first valve adjustment at 112,000 miles, and was told that the valves were still in spec." Yet in the same thread there was someone else posting that at 25K they had all 16 "out of or at the edge of tolerance".
On this thread: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2375.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2375.0) The poll had 30 of 53 (57%) reporting that at 15K they were in spec. On another thread, a poll reported 12 of 23 (53%) that everything was in spec, but the interval wasn't addressed (so it was at ANY mileage, that could be 15k, 26k, 30k, 50k, whatever).
If you can find a bike that was out of spec at 15K, does that mean the recommended interval was too short or too long? So how does that impact Kawasaki's recommendation to the rest of the world for it being 26K? I like the say B.D.F. says it:
"There is absolutely nothing wrong with following the maintenance schedule set forth by Kawasaki for US bikes. I am simply saying that there are other considerations that may make disregarding the suggested intervals and using other intervals perfectly sound and reasonable."
After a couple hours of reading threw all the new & old Valve adjust threads on both forums I have come to the conclusion that the majority of Owners stating that their valves required no adjustment were done at dealerships, The majority stating that adjustment WAS needed were done by the owners themselves or people/mechanics they know. This is at all mileage. Come to your own decisions but if done at a dealership I would want documented proof & pictures that they actually did check them. I have a feeling many valve covers never even get removed but customers are told all is IN spec !.
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24k is when I did mine on my 2008- a ridden very hard 2008 - not that that would make any difference. All were 'In Spec' but all the exhaust valves where right on the edge of being NOT in spec so ALL but one of my valves had to be redone to the maximum spec. If I had left it alone (like a dealer might do) even though they were 'in spec' I would not be able to ride to the next interval. I would have surely caused some damage.
I would say 24 to 25k miles they should be adjusted- not checked- and get a shim map done.
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I sincerely doubt that a dealer would fail to even remove the valve cover. I worked as a factory trained mechanic for YEARS and ALWAYS adjusted the valves that were OUT OF SPEC.
But to be honest, I only set the valves on my own vehicles to PREFERRED clearances. There is a big difference between what is "acceptable" and what is "preferred". If a mechanic has a spec such as .005 - .008 clearance, he'll grab a .005 feeler gauge and a .009 feeler gauge. If the .005 goes and the .009 doesn't, it is a winner. Most small independent shops are more conscience for obvious reasons.
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One thing to consider- magically, the manuals for non-USA/CDN bikes call for a valve check at 26K miles, not 15K. And those bikes have identical heads, valves, springs, pistons, cams, seats, blocks, etc, etc. So why is it that USA/CDN bikes should be checked at 15K and the same bike sold outside that area are 26K? At a minimum, that would tend to imply 26K is safe, even based on Kawasaki's own recommendations.
It may be just a coincident that 25,000km =15,500 miles. Could be kawi did not get the units right between USA (miles) and the rest of the world(km).
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I think the answer to the OP's question is YES.
I believe there are at least 3 members in different areas who will work on members bikes.
Billy, reach out and ask. I don't know what they would charge but would guess that it would be less than a dealer.
And you would also know that the person working on your bike is someone who cares about them, most likely owning one them self.
Agreed 100%!
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It may be just a coincident that 25,000km =15,500 miles. Could be kawi did not get the units right between USA (miles) and the rest of the world(km).
Bingo!!! I have wondered that myself... seems very plausible.
Billy
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Thanks guys! Being that I am in FL a lot and Tuscaloosa a lot.. I have options depending on where I am at the time... Makes me feel much better.. Thinking of just getting it done around 20k on the first go round.
Billy
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got my first valve job performed at around 25000 miles. 7 out of 16 were out of spec. I had it done again at 55000 miles. 5 were out of spec. The second time I had tons of plastic out due to a small accident, so it didn't cost much.
For reference, my usual oil and filter plus little things sort of workshop visit costs around 170 EUR (200 USD). The first valve check took the bill to 550 EUR (600 USD) and the third one costed me just 350 EUR (380 USD).
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It may be just a coincident that 25,000km =15,500 miles. Could be kawi did not get the units right between USA (miles) and the rest of the world(km).
I could certainly believe that, but only for the first time around (2008). I can't believe it would remain documented wrong through 9 years of updates, revisions, and questions. Doesn't seem at all plausible.
Of course, all this talk about the non-USA/CDN spec and I don't know if maybe it WAS corrected and yet we have been repeating the initial information over and over for years. We need someone with a > 2010 non-North American Concours to check their docs and see if it really says the same thing.
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Did mine at 31,000 did it myself, pain in the ass very time intensive but not hard by any means. Six of my EX were on the edge of being tight out of spec and 2 were just a hair tight out. All the IN were with in spec but 2 were on the tight side. I already had a shim set and just needed to buy a new valve cover gasket because mine was split.
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I read once dealers b*tched about 26K-mile valve adjustment specs (Yamaha too), due to lack of service revenue. Due to most results posted here after a 25K or so mile interval, that seems to be the real reason to me ;D.
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For all the guys that's done the work themselves, bravo! Which manual did you use to do it? And did the manual list the exact tools required?
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Factory service manual. You need to own one, they can be priceless.
Tools are pretty self explanatory. Then again, what seems very ordinary to some are speciality tools to others. A good set of hand tools goes a long way. Good feeler gauges too. Oh, Fred Harmon's dvds are also a good investment.
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+1
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Factory service manual. You need to own one, they can be priceless.
Tools are pretty self explanatory. Then again, what seems very ordinary to some are speciality tools to others. A good set of hand tools goes a long way. Good feeler gauges too. Oh, Fred Harmon's dvds are also a good investment.
Thanks. I'm definitely getting them all. Worth while investments.
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My 2009 has 29,400 miles on it and I've never had the valves adjusted. It runs as perfect as the day I first got it and I bought it new. I'm reluctant to let a dealer touch it because I wonder if they truly know what they're doing. Maybe I'm just paranoid or maybe it's because they once bent my rear wheel on a routine tire change. I'm guessing it's like anything else in that some dealers have mechanics that know what they're doing and others maybe not. Anyone here have higher mileage on their C14 that have never had the valves adjusted? Is there some type of risk by not getting them adjusted?
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My 2009 has 29,400 miles on it and I've never had the valves adjusted. It runs as perfect as the day I first got it and I bought it new. I'm reluctant to let a dealer touch it because I wonder if they truly know what they're doing. Maybe I'm just paranoid or maybe it's because they once bent my rear wheel on a routine tire change. I'm guessing it's like anything else in that some dealers have mechanics that know what they're doing and others maybe not.
Many of us know exactly how you feel
Is there some type of risk by not getting them adjusted?
Yes. It can destroy the head (the valves and/or the seats).
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Lots of rumours and fairy tales to be had!
Ex-dealer mechanic, so I have always done all of my own work.
Mine had been adjusted (or so I am told) at about 50,000 miles. I got it at 53,000 12/2013. Adjusted it at 71,000 myself. Six of eight exhausts were tight. All got adjusted to maximum clearance then. Intakes were all OK, so that cam stayed in.
Just did it for the second time last week. 126,700 miles. Again with the exhausts, six were tight. Several of the intakes had opened up a little, NONE had gotten tighter, and all were easily in spec.
Not what I expected...but I measured twice to be certain. Again I left the intake cam in.
Do what you want, but adjustments do become essential after a while. I would do the first at 25,000 miles, and then every 50,000. They seem to be quite stable. I do not rev the thing all that much, and yes, that is likely to matter.
datsaxman
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:goodpost:
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I am lazy and not poor, so I paid to have mine checked at 36k. I was told they were ok. I also had the coolant and plugs changed. The cost was $745, which was not easy to swallow, but I feel better. They also swapped the rear shock under warranty, the preload adjuster had to be adjusted with a pair of channel locks, and that was after the passenger footpeg was removed to allow access. BTW, my bike sees redline frequently.
A friend did his, he's a pretty aggressive rider also and also an exceptionally anal engineer, his 2011 had maybe 28k? He loves a complicated project. He had 1 out of spec and 1 close that he chose to skip but when the last valve was off, he ended up setting them both.
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I am lazy and not poor, so I paid to have mine checked at 36k. I was told they were ok. I also had the coolant and plugs changed. The cost was $745, which was not easy to swallow, but I feel better. They also swapped the rear shock under warranty, the preload adjuster had to be adjusted with a pair of channel locks, and that was after the passenger footpeg was removed to allow access. BTW, my bike sees redline frequently.
A friend did his, he's a pretty aggressive rider also and also an exceptionally anal engineer, his 2011 had maybe 28k? He loves a complicated project. He had 1 out of spec and 1 close that he chose to skip but when the last valve was off, he ended up setting them both.
So did you get a shim map? At 36k they should have all been on the tight side right on the edge of with in spec or as the dealer would say they are 'OK'.. They should have moved all of them to the max spec.
Seems a shame to pay all that money to just 'look' at it. Reminds me of that TV commercial with the Dental Monitor. Are you going to fix the cavity?
Nope, I am just a monitor. I only tell you that have a cavity. I dont fix it.
Word of advice: Do not pay to have the valves checked or 'looked at'. Only pay to have them all moved to the max spec and make sure you get a shim map done.
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Word of advice: Do not pay to have the valves checked or 'looked at'. Only pay to have them all moved to the max spec and make sure you get a shim map done.
That is good advice
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I'm new here but I've always done my own valves on bikes I've owned and plan to do them on the C14 as well. That said I have not gotten the maintenance manual yet so I don't know how involved it is yet. Guess I'll just ride the other bike for as long as required.
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Hi Group!
So I take my Connie to my Kawasaki shop today as I bought a new HID headlight kit and this past weekend see it's a pain as so much skins have to be removed to get to the wire connectors. Not changing subject, keep reading. So although I do must electronics myself, I concede to have them installed at my dealer for a 1 to 2 hr labor rate.
So during the headlight install estimate, they tell me since I'm now at 27k miles and I need to have the 27k service which includes the valves adjusted among other things and the total is "only" $1080.00. He says that's a deal as since they need to take some of the side skin off anyway, he'll take off 1 hr of labor as a discount. This is an authorized Kawa dealer with bike service in So Cal area.
The engine sounds terrific and can't see the reason to break open the engine needlessly. Kind of like cracking an egg shell and expecting to put it back perfectly to factory. I get the fluids and air filters changed, but opening up the engine for a valve check? really?
Any comments guys?
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A valve check requires considerable disassembly and the removing the valve cover. 27K is past the recommended time. If my bike were at 27K and was already out of service and already at a shop and they were already going to take off stuff and then discount it further.... I would have it checked/adjusted. $1080 sounds steep, though. But for a reputable shop and including other stuff, it might be the going price.
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I'm in the middle of my first valve job on my 2009 with 29k miles.
On the intake side all were between .11 and .08 which is .01 to .04mm on the tight side of the minimum clearance.
Exhaust side was also tight across the board but not as much except for one which was .05 tight.
I was able to swap shims around so that I only need to buy 5 new ones.
It is a big job but I would never have a dealer do it. I just don't trust them.
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when you convert this all to "thousandth of an inch" , and do it to four decimal places. it makes complete, and accurate figures.
my crappy mics from McMaster Carr, measure to much closer than a 1/1000" note $ decimalI'm in the middle of my first valve job on my 2009 with 29k miles.
On the intake side all were between .11 and .08 which is .01 to .04mm on the tight side of the minimum clearance.
Exhaust side was also tight across the board but not as much except for one which was .05 tight.
I was able to swap shims around so that I only need to buy 5 new ones.
It is a big job but I would never have a dealer do it. I just don't trust them.
places
now time or you to measure yhe inside dimension to cam face,on each bucket// I been spouting this for years, swapping buckets will save $$$ on shim needs/