Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: DaddyFlip on November 28, 2015, 03:30:15 PM
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Just documenting my experience and efforts for posterity. Comments welcome.
Took posession on 10/6/15 of a NOS 2011 with 160 miles on the odo. Rode it home 5 hours and 280 miles without issue, thrilled with smoothness and comfort. Followed break-in rule and changed oil at 624 miles with Mobil1 10w-40 Racing 4T and rear gear with Master Pro GL-5 full synthetic. The next 350 miles spent just riding around locally. I noticed some buzz coming from the tank area, but nothing intrusive and nothing at the grips or pegs.
Ordered and installed some accessories: Heli-Bar risers to reduce the forward lean, Grab-On grip covers to increase diameter/reduce fatigue, RAM ball mounts for brake/clutch clamps, Tech Spec pads for grip and to protect paint, Cox rad guard, and Fenda Extenda.
Took a 1031 mile round trip overnight to central Texas (Lockhart/Luling) where legal speeds are 75-85mph. Got hand AND foot numbing buzz the whole trip; 48 hours later and I'm still numb. My RAM dedicated cradle mount Garmin is damaged from the vibration; won't charge or connect to computer. I rode with a magnetic mount Cortech tank bag (fits great) on the tank. Everything else on the bike is OE, even the 021 tires which are 5 years new.
Experienced something odd on the way back. Eased up on some traffic that should have been moving at a light that had just turned green, but it just sat there. I stalled the bike in 4th and had to pull out of traffic. After restarting and downshifting to 1st, the bike ran perfectly smooth for awhile, maybe 20-30 minutes, but went back to buzzing tremendously the rest of the trip.
I have removed the RAM balls and checked torque on all the bolts on the bars and the 80ft-lb head nut. Checked most of the exposed nuts and bolts- good. Since I have bar, peg, and tank buzz, I'm betting on engine mounts. I just got rid of a Tiger Explorer for the same thing. My i-4 ZR7 is silky, so I'm familiar with the presence or absence of inline buzz. These stressed member engines are hit-or-miss is my opinion; rubber mount steel cradle is easier to pull off. Still to do after searching the site:
check header pipe nuts
perform engine dismount/remount/retorque
replace tires and check balance
damp the right heated grip wire cover
I'm hopeful that the engine mount procedure will do the trick. Good tips on the site. Would hate to resort to the Gold Wing substitution.
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You might check the tightness of the clutch bolts....
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Totally smooth bike and it went to heck after you installed some accessories? Recheck the installation of the Heli-bars. Not sure what Grab-on grip covers are. I don't see how that could cause any issues though. The Heli's would seem to be the most likely suspect. Check the hot idle. Should be around 1250.
It seems this happened after you went through the mods so I'm not sure we can blame the bike on the buzzing if it happened afterwards. It's something you did to the bike. Again, my guess is the Heli's unless you did something else you didn't document.
Of course it could also be adding more miles uncovered something but I really doubt it. Before I did all those things you are going to do, I would put it back to stock first and see if the vibration lessens.
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You might check the tightness of the clutch bolts....
If you mean the 8mm bolts surrounding the clutch basket cover, will do; thanks.
If you meant the clutch lever clamp bolts, already done.
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Experienced something odd on the way back. Eased up on some traffic that should have been moving at a light that had just turned green, but it just sat there. I stalled the bike in 4th and had to pull out of traffic. After restarting and downshifting to 1st, the bike ran perfectly smooth for awhile, maybe 20-30 minutes, but went back to buzzing tremendously the rest of the trip.
If I understand what happened here (and maybe I don't) you must of braked at the last second and pretty hard at that, right?
If so, perhaps that's the key to the trouble shooting. Either the hard stop did something to the engine mounting or perhaps the steering stem? In other words, something shifted (micro-measuredly) and then the vibration ended until it shifted back again? Just typing out loud here, but I'd try another hard stop on some safe dry pavement somewhere and try to recreate the smoothness.
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Totally smooth bike and it went to heck after you installed some accessories? Recheck the installation of the Heli-bars. Not sure what Grab-on grip covers are. I don't see how that could cause any issues though. The Heli's would seem to be the most likely suspect. Check the hot idle. Should be around 1250.
It seems this happened after you went through the mods so I'm not sure we can blame the bike on the buzzing if it happened afterwards. It's something you did to the bike. Again, my guess is the Heli's unless you did something else you didn't document.
Of course it could also be adding more miles uncovered something but I really doubt it. Before I did all those things you are going to do, I would put it back to stock first and see if the vibration lessens.
Not totally smooth. I noticed the tank buzz day one, but did not notice anything intrusive at the grips and pegs. The bike was also new to me, I was excited, I was WANTING the bike to be perfect after trading off a year-long nightmare bike, and I had not ridden at length and at speed in the first 970 miles. So maybe this most recent trip said "the honeymoon is over".
So here's an objective review of my mods:
- Heli-risers... most likely cause of magnifying an existing vibration by adding a gap, lengthening the torque arm, etc. Not likely to cause vibration down to the pegs. Checked torque of bolts- all good. Not sure loosening and retorqueing would make a difference. Removing is not an option except as a troubleshooting method because I want the new riding position.
- RAM brake/clutch clamp balls... already removed. These were the two-ball versions with longer bolts and plastic spacers. To these were mounted a Garmin nuvi 50 in a RAM dedicated cradle on the end of a medium length arm on the left and a cell/Otterbox in an X-mount/medium arm on the right. There was more right grip vibration (maybe due to throttle plus the plastic cover for the heated grip wire) but less of it transferred to the phone than the GPS; the X-grip has better damping than the more rigid dedicated mount. So these are gone for troubleshooting, but it would be a case of "the tail wagging the dog" if they are cause.
- Tech Spec pads... don't expect any cause or magnification from these.
- Fenda Extenda... ditto.
- Grab Ons... ditto. FYI these are like grip puppies.
- Cox rad guard... I did not attach the top with zip ties, so there could be a little buzz added because of this. Will address.
For fun, I'm pulling the plastic and checking the mounts today.
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If I understand what happened here (and maybe I don't) you must of braked at the last minute and pretty hard at that, right?
If so, perhaps that's the key to the trouble shooting. Either the hard stop did something to the engine mounting or perhaps the steering stem? In other words, something shifted (micro-measuredly) and then the vibration ended until it shifted back again? Just typing out loud here, but I'd try another hard stop on some safe dry pavement somewhere and try to recreate the smoothness.
Wasn't a hard brake; just rolling slow/fast enough to keep going in 4th. When traffic didn't start moving as I expected, RPM dropped enough to stall. I didn't even notice it except red oil light came on. My brakes do suck, though. Whenever I use the front brakes, even normally/lightly, it feels like the front end is going to slide out and wreck me. Hate it! Don't know if this is normal or broken yet.
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What's the hot idle rpm and what tires are you running and do they look worn?
In retrospect, your results are atypical of the bike. Was this bought at a dealer and do you have a warranty? Also, in thinking that this is a 'new' bike, you must have the BTs which are quite frankly crap. Also check the air pressure in the tires. This bike likes 42.
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I would get the front tire off the ground and check the front brakes. Might have a piston dragging.
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Yeah, that too. But really? This is a new bike. If it's having all these issues I'd take it back to the dealer to look at.
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What's the hot idle rpm and what tires are you running and do they look worn?
In retrospect, your results are atypical of the bike. Was this bought at a dealer and do you have a warranty? Also, in thinking that this is a 'new' bike, you must have the BTs which are quite frankly crap. Also check the air pressure in the tires. This bike likes 42.
I left it alone today, so don't have the hot idle number. Running OE 021's and they are 5 years old but new. No dry rot, still a little soft by the finger nail test. Yes bought new at dealer, yes full 3-year factory warranty, yes run 42psi cold in both by manual check.
I'm prepared to do some easy troubleshooting myself before dealer visit like new tires and balance, engine mounting bolts, brake check, etc. Dealer is 5 hours away. I have a local dealer 30 minutes away also if I get desperate. Frankly, I don't have good experience with dealers working on new bikes with problems. I will dump the bike for something else if I can't DIY before wasting time at a dealer. FYI... I wasn't happy with the selling dealer's prep of this bike. They sent me away with 3 quarts of black sludge as oil and maybe unbled brakes. One day at a time.
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Geez...
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So....will you dump the bike at a lousy dealer as a trade-in or as a private sale and disclose to the buyer the perceived problems so they can have it looked at under warranty by a lousy dealer? Just curious.
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So....will you dump the bike at a lousy dealer as a trade-in or as a private sale and disclose to the buyer the perceived problems so they can have it looked at under warranty by a lousy dealer? Just curious.
What are you implying? I intend to resolve the issue. It is my experience that dealers AND manufacturers these days have one answer for a handful of subjective problems... "they all do that." Buzz/vibration/wobble is one of those issues. Makes it hard to get a resolution. BTDT. FWIW, I would trade at a dealer that sold the make if it came to that. BTW, "lousy dealer" is also subjective, sometimes.
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What are you implying? I intend to resolve the issue. It is my experience that dealers AND manufacturers these days have one answer for a handful of subjective problems... "they all do that." Buzz/vibration/wobble is one of those issues. Makes it hard to get a resolution. BTDT. FWIW, I would trade at a dealer that sold the make if it came to that. BTW, "lousy dealer" is also subjective, sometimes.
I personally would dumpster the 5 year old Crapstone BT- 021's first- they are bad even when new, I think they are made of horse foreskins.
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I personally would dumpster the 5 year old Crapstone BT- 021's first- they are bad even when new, I think they are made of horse foreskins.
Though tires aren't the issue, I will change them anyway when checking balance and run out. Probably BT T30 GT-spec.
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What are you implying? I intend to resolve the issue. It is my experience that dealers AND manufacturers these days have one answer for a handful of subjective problems... "they all do that." Buzz/vibration/wobble is one of those issues. Makes it hard to get a resolution. BTDT. FWIW, I would trade at a dealer that sold the make if it came to that. BTW, "lousy dealer" is also subjective, sometimes.
Extreme vibration/buzzing is not normal nor is crappy brakes (no matter what a dealer says). Those BT's are old and probably the issue with the braking. Something happened to instigate the vibration, whether it was the Heli's or it was coincidence with them being installed. The exhaust header nuts can loosen or are just plain loose from the plant. You have the stock exhaust can, right? I have seen aftermarket can's cause some vibration (personal experience there). I have some minor vibration at just below 3k rpm but it disappears after that. Weirdly, I feel it on the throttle side of the bars (I have Heli's installed). I really don't see the engine mounts being the issue but I guess it's worth a shot but be aware they can be a bear to get loose.
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I hope to make tires a moot point in the near future, but I don't count on them solving the braking or vibration issues. On my last bike, new tires were the unanimous forum favorite to solve a similar issue and they were not it. I would agree that tires might be the issue with 'stopping' but not the 'braking' phenomenon I'm experiencing. The slightest touch of the brake lever at even crawling speed results in the lever pumping under my hand and hopping at the wheel. Hopefully, a bleed will fix this; if not, then it could be an ABS issue requiring dealer involvement.
I do have stock exhaust. The mounting hardware is good. I spot checked the outside header nuts and they 'appear' good (didn't get a torque wrench on them- will do all of them when the plastics come off). I agree with and experience 'minor vibration at just below 3k rpm'; I believe this to be a normal harmonic of the engine and it is not what I'm chasing. I'm chasing a significant buzz in the frame that impacts bars/pegs/tank in OD at 70mph cruising speed (and any gear/cruising speed). Throttle side vibration is slightly more prevalent for me also; I've heard the plastic cover for the heated grip wire causes this difference. Damping it with a rubber washer and/or Dynamat or foam underneath it balances this vibration. The other difference is the simple fact that there's a throttle tube on the right and just a solid bar on the left.
Another thing I read about and checked on my own bike is the mating of the bar-end weight with the end of the bar. The end of the bar is a truncated cone that is supposed to mate with an elastomer embedded in the weight. If there is a rigid connection caused by the bolt being too tight or the elastomer becoming hard/brittle, then the bar-end weight can't do it's job. You should be able to grab the bar-end weight and move it back and forth to verify it is 'soft' mounted. If it doesn't move, then it is 'hard' mounted and will contribute to more vibration (longer torque arm).
I won't be able to work on the bike until next weekend now. The purpose of this thread is to discuss and document these and other potential vibration causes and resolutions to help others troubleshoot.
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I hope to make tires a moot point in the near future, but I don't count on them solving the braking or vibration issues. On my last bike, new tires were the unanimous forum favorite to solve a similar issue and they were not it. I would agree that tires might be the issue with 'stopping' but not the 'braking' phenomenon I'm experiencing. The slightest touch of the brake lever at even crawling speed results in the lever pumping under my hand and hopping at the wheel. Hopefully, a bleed will fix this; if not, then it could be an ABS issue requiring dealer involvement.
That's ABS kicking in and possibly traction control as well. I can't really speak to that as I have an 08 ABS model. The ABS on mine has kicked in several times but nothing like your description. Mine works as designed and only kicks in when I really have to stop hard. I can't say that I've felt it at all on wet conditions but then I only run PR3s. Someone with an 11 on forward would have to troubleshoot this as to how you may have it set, but even then it shouldn't be acting as you describe. I don't think it's brakes (rotor/pads) per se, it's the ABS/traction control system. Tires can really affect how this works. You've got 'bad' tires under the best of conditions but tires 4 years old or older certainly aren't helping it. I know with my Prius and it's traction control that the tires really affect how it kicks in. Worn or crap tires really make it kick in.
I could have sworn I had an index of vibration 'fixes' but darned if I can find it now.... Let me see what I can find and I'll post the links.
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I agree with and experience 'minor vibration at just below 3k rpm'; I believe this to be a normal harmonic of the engine
I don't. The only vibration in my C14 is right above 3k, around 3.5k. And it is, indeed, the harmonic of the engine.
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That's ABS kicking in and possibly traction control as well. I can't really speak to that as I have an 08 ABS model. The ABS on mine has kicked in several times but nothing like your description. Mine works as designed and only kicks in when I really have to stop hard. I can't say that I've felt it at all on wet conditions but then I only run PR3s. Someone with an 11 on forward would have to troubleshoot this as to how you may have it set, but even then it shouldn't be acting as you describe. I don't think it's brakes (rotor/pads) per se, it's the ABS/traction control system. Tires can really affect how this works. You've got 'bad' tires under the best of conditions but tires 4 years old or older certainly aren't helping it. I know with my Prius and it's traction control that the tires really affect how it kicks in. Worn or crap tires really make it kick in.
I must unequivocally agree with this assessment. Even though it doesn't seem like this should be the case, the tires are harder than they seem and harder than they should be. I bought the old man knowing I would change the tires sooner than normal regardless of what the tread looked like. To address the 'braking' issue, I will go ahead and get some tires coming.
I don't. The only vibration in my C14 is right above 3k, around 3.5k. And it is, indeed, the harmonic of the engine.
Maybe that's where it is. I was just agreeing with VJ. It's somewhere around 3k.
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I don't. The only vibration in my C14 is right above 3k, around 3.5k. And it is, indeed, the harmonic of the engine.
I think that point of vibration can change depending on many factors...noted above.
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I must unequivocally agree with this assessment. Even though it doesn't seem like this should be the case, the tires are harder than they seem and harder than they should be. I bought the old man knowing I would change the tires sooner than normal regardless of what the tread looked like. To address the 'braking' issue, I will go ahead and get some tires coming.
After a little study, I now equivocate in regard to the previous assessment of braking performance:
First, traction control only affects power delivery to the rear wheel by limiting throttle response and has nothing to do with the front wheel or braking action of the bike, so that's out. However, I could verify this by turning traction control off.
Second, the manual does state, "When K-ACT system is functioning, you may feel a pulsing in the brake lever or pedal and feel a change of the braking touch. When the ABS is functioning, you may feel a pulsing in the brake lever or pedal. These are normal. Maintain braking pressure. This is my first linked braking bike. I have the setting on standard, not high. This is my second ABS bike. The previous bike only went into ABS mode one memorable time (dark, lost, very rough pavement, turning, car coming at me head-on) in over 7000 miles. The lever pulsing was expected and predictable. This bike pulses every time I pull the lever (unexpected) no matter the speed (unpredictable). It very well could be the tires, but this sure is odd.
Third, the manual states, "K-ACT system does not function at the speed of approx. 12mph or below when the brake starts to be applied. ABS does not function at the speed of approx. 3.1mph or below." I get the strange pulsing and feeling like I'm going to wash out just stopping at the end of my driveway, which is well below the 12mph, so it can't be K-ACT if it's working properly. However, I am going faster than 3.1mph, so it could be the ABS.
Concluding, then, the most likely culprit is the ABS and maybe the tires. A thorough brake bleed and cleaning/exercising of the brakes is in order, as is a new set of tires.
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Yeah, that fluid has been in there a loooooooong time. You could also have something wrong with the ABS system as well. A bike sitting that long and then you go on a long trip.....no good can come from it.
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I would guess tires. I have had tires with mid level mileage cup and cause your exact issue. It was unnoticeable to the eye, but corrected instantly with a new set of tires. Getting rid of 5 year old Crapstones should not be that painful. Hope this works for you.
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First, traction control only affects power delivery to the rear wheel by limiting throttle response and has nothing to do with the front wheel or braking action of the bike, so that's out. However, I could verify this by turning traction control off.
Traction control doesn't involve the brakes at all. It is just engine air restriction (secondary butterflies), ignition timing, and fuel delivery modulation.
Second, the manual does state, "When K-ACT system is functioning, you may feel a pulsing in the brake lever or pedal and feel a change of the braking touch. When the ABS is functioning, you may feel a pulsing in the brake lever or pedal. These are normal. Maintain braking pressure.[...]This bike pulses every time I pull the lever (unexpected) no matter the speed (unpredictable). It very well could be the tires, but this sure is odd.
If your tires are not complete trash, and you have decent road conditions, it typically takes a LOT of braking force to have the ABS kick in. In all the time I have been riding the C14, I have never triggered the ABS yet.... and I had a couple of pretty hard braking sessions.
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Oh, I've triggered mine several Oh No times.
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Yeah, that fluid has been in there a loooooooong time. You could also have something wrong with the ABS system as well. A bike sitting that long and then you go on a long trip.....no good can come from it.
Yeah, and I made a point of that before I bought the bike. Sales said, "No, it should be fine." Then when I agreed to buy it, sales said, "Service agreed with you that the fluid should be changed, so it's being changed." Therefore, I left the dealer thinking I have fresh, fully bled brake fluid. Maybe I do; maybe not. So the best thing for me to do is do some controlled braking with the current tires, change tires, do some controlled braking, take notes, return to dealer if necessary.
I would guess tires. I have had tires with mid level mileage cup and cause your exact issue. It was unnoticeable to the eye, but corrected instantly with a new set of tires. Getting rid of 5 year old Crapstones should not be that painful. Hope this works for you.
Not painful at all. Have PR3's and T30's in the shopping cart... deciding.
Traction control doesn't involve the brakes at all. It is just engine air restriction (secondary butterflies), ignition timing, and fuel delivery modulation.
If your tires are not complete trash, and you have decent road conditions, it typically takes a LOT of braking force to have the ABS kick in. In all the time I have been riding the C14, I have never triggered the ABS yet.... and I had a couple of pretty hard braking sessions.
This is what I think also, but maybe I need to pay very close attention to what is happening under controlled conditions.
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Not painful at all. Have PR3's and T30's in the shopping cart... deciding.
PR4GT; there, decision made! :)