Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: concours_to_go on June 07, 2015, 08:43:02 PM
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Hi,
I have a 2001 Kawasaki Concours that is new to me. The last time I ran the engine, it was running fine, smooth and steady, but was making louder than usual valve tapping noise. I looked at the oil level window on the case and could see it was full of oil. I stopped the engine. I opened the valve cover and found that valve train area had some oil, but not as much as it should. The cams show some abrasion. I drained the oil and found it to be full. So, I am assuming an oil pump failure or clogged passages. I plan to replace the oil pump. I'm thinking there may possibly be some kind of obstruction, such as a piece of RTV, or paper towel???
My question is. Can I thoroughly clean out all the oil passages without taking the entire engine apart?
Maybe use compressed air from the top and bottom of the engine..?
Any advice and thoughts appreciated.
TIA,
Jim
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So the cams show wear beyond the normal pitting?
How much oil is supposed to be visible in the cam area upon inspection?
"I looked at the oil level window on the case and could see it was full of oil. I stopped the engine." Was the oil level checked while the engine was running?
"I drained the oil and found it to be full." How much oil drained out and did that include the 2 drain plugs and the filter?
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So the cams show wear beyond the normal pitting?
How much oil is supposed to be visible in the cam area upon inspection?
"I looked at the oil level window on the case and could see it was full of oil. I stopped the engine." Was the oil level checked while the engine was running?
"I drained the oil and found it to be full." How much oil drained out and did that include the 2 drain plugs and the filter?
Yes, drained from both plugs, but have not removed the filter yet.
Cams were almost dry, they had just a light film. I have always found them to be wet with oil.
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A thin coat of oil is all I would expect to find a on the cam shaft. Especially, if it was hot when you turn the bike off. These cams will pick on the newer models. A little pitting is OK. Can you take pictures?
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Did you check the valve adjustment and verify the cam chain tensioner is working? CCT on the later models apparently make a little extra noise just before they snap to the next tooth.
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The bike was cold, and has been sitting for a couple months.
The valve train is dry, and shows minute damage on the cams, not the issue.
Cam chain noise is not the issue.
I am looking for an experienced point of view on how to go about clearing the oil passages, by someone that has done this, or is familiar with the oil passage routes in this engine design.
Thanks in advance,
Jim
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before doing that, id check the actual oilpump output pressure, it should be 38-47lbs iirc.
there is a plug down by the shifter on the side of the case, where you need to install an adapter you may need to cobble up, to fit an oil pressure gauge, but before ripping everything apart, id do that diagnostic first....
steve may need to chime in here about this, I'm sure he's made a gauge thingamabobber...
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before doing that, id check the actual oilpump output pressure, it should be 38-47lbs iirc.
there is a plug down by the shifter on the side of the case, where you need to install an adapter you may need to cobble up, to fit an oil pressure gauge, but before ripping everything apart, id do that diagnostic first....
steve may need to chime in here about this, I'm sure he's made a gauge thingamabobber...
Thank you for your quick response. I don't have my manual at hand, but I will check it later today for the oil pump pressure testing procedure.
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I no longer have a good picture... But this gives you an idea of where the fitting in question is located; it is directly under the pulser cover. Big K sells an adapter 57001-1188 but it still requires a bit of adapting as it is designed to fit their oil pressure test gauge. The oil pressure is read at 4K @ 38 to 47 with the oil hot; at hot idle don't expect to see much more than a few pounds on the gauge. Also IIRC all oil that the top end receives comes via the T shaped steel line attached to the head...
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Does the oil pressure warning light go out when the engine runs?
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Does the oil pressure warning light go out when the engine runs?
It had better. Mine occasionally blinks if I brake hard with the engine at idle.
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Hi,
Thanks for your replies.
No, the oil light has not come on.
Here is a photo of a parts motor. I see what looks like another sensor, but I do not find it in the parts diagram, it has it's own wire that plugs in with the oil pressure sensor...... Is this the plug?
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So, I'm looking at the diagram in the manual, and looking at the parts engine trying to figure out the path of the oil flow. It appears the flow of oil comes up the tubes outside the front of the engine. There it goes into the ports in the head, into the rockers shaft, into the rocker arms, and sprayed on the cam lobes.
I have a new question, How does the oil that sprays from the rocker arms to the cam lobes return to the oil sump?
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It had better. Mine occasionally blinks if I brake hard with the engine at idle.
I was riding my Connie in a really strong crosswind once. I had to lean so much to one side into the wind that the oil sump sucked air a couple of times. Seeing the oil light flicker was kind of unnerving, so I adjusted my stance a bit so the bike could be a little more upright/catch some oil (kind of like how guys shift to one side of the bike when going into a high speed turn, but I was doing a similar thing to 'lean' into the wind to keep the sump from sucking air).
I was happy once I crossed that valley and entered the next mountain pass (crosswinds died down). Interesting ride that day...
I'm older now, so I'm not so big about riding in all weather conditions... damn whippersnappers and their 'no fear' attitudes anyways!
::)
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I am looking for an experienced point of view on how to go about clearing the oil passages, by someone that has done this, or is familiar with the oil passage routes in this engine design.
Most all of the internal oil passages can't be 'blown out' without removing a part first. And by part, I mean the cam shaft, or the crankshaft, or a con-rod, etc.
As I recall, the head (all the valve train parts) is lubricated from an external wishbone oil feeder pipe that is located under the header pipes. Main line front/center at the bottom. The "T" fitting (welded/brazed) is near the top, and a line splits off to each side of the head.
If you want to check for oil flow to the head, I might suggest loosening the lower banjo bolt slightly and cranking the engine. If you get oil, and *still* think the lines/passages downstream may be plugged, you'll need to remove the cams and rocker shafts.
Not terribly hard, but does take time. Loosen all the cam adjust locknuts and screws, mark the cam chain, the cam gears, crank gear, a tooth on each cam/crank gear so you can get everything back in the same position. Remove the cam chain tensioner, remove the cam gears, remove the cam caps, lift the cam out.
For a warm fuzzy: Remove the two 8mm? 6mm? hex plugs on the right side that are axially inline with the rocker shafts, pull the rocker shafts out, and gather up the rockers and the springs that may (or may not) still be attached to the rockers. I think it best the rockers be re-installed in the same location, so you might want to mark them before removing.
Reverse to reassemble, taking note that the cam shaft caps *have* to go back in the same location, and direction. You have been warned.
Rick
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Most all of the internal oil passages can't be 'blown out' without removing a part first. And by part, I mean the cam shaft, or the crankshaft, or a con-rod, etc.
As I recall, the head (all the valve train parts) is lubricated from an external wishbone oil feeder pipe that is located under the header pipes. Main line front/center at the bottom. The "T" fitting (welded/brazed) is near the top, and a line splits off to each side of the head.
If you want to check for oil flow to the head, I might suggest loosening the lower banjo bolt slightly and cranking the engine. If you get oil, and *still* think the lines/passages downstream may be plugged, you'll need to remove the cams and rocker shafts.
Not terribly hard, but does take time. Loosen all the cam adjust locknuts and screws, mark the cam chain, the cam gears, crank gear, a tooth on each cam/crank gear so you can get everything back in the same position. Remove the cam chain tensioner, remove the cam gears, remove the cam caps, lift the cam out.
For a warm fuzzy: Remove the two 8mm? 6mm? hex plugs on the right side that are axially inline with the rocker shafts, pull the rocker shafts out, and gather up the rockers and the springs that may (or may not) still be attached to the rockers. I think it best the rockers be re-installed in the same location, so you might want to mark them before removing.
Reverse to reassemble, taking note that the cam shaft caps *have* to go back in the same location, and direction. You have been warned.
Rick
Hi Rick,
Thanks for the quick reply. Yes, I will take it apart and blow out all the top end passages. I have worked on the top end before, so I am comfortable doing it.
So, Is it possible you can answer my question? Is the other sensor or "plug" I show in the photo, the port for the oil pressure tester?
Also, after thinking about it, my guess is that all the oil that builds up in the top end is returned to the sump by way of running over the edge at the cam chain. I don't see any other way for it's return. Do you have a better answer?
Thanks,
Jim
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Here is a photo of a parts motor. I see what looks like another sensor, but I do not find it in the parts diagram, it has it's own wire that plugs in with the oil pressure sensor...... Is this the plug?
The small devise should have a light green wire and is the neutral switch and the larger devise with the black wire is the oil pressure switch they come off of a small 2 wire plug on the harness...
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my guess is that all the oil that builds up in the top end is returned to the sump by way of running over the edge at the cam chain. I don't see any other way for it's return. Do you have a better answer?
Nope... That is the return path...
The oil pump itself is almost never the cause of failure but its design does cause a lot of head scratching.... The pump is is of two chambered gear design that picks up oil collecting under the balancer/crankshaft chamber and runs it through the oil cooler and returns it to the transmission sump; this is why the oil level rises in the sight glass with the engine running. The second oil pump picks up the now cooled oil from the tranny sump and runs it through the filter and then to various locations within the engine.
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So, Is it possible you can answer my question? Is the other sensor or "plug" I show in the photo, the port for the oil pressure tester?
No, but suppose you could use it for that. PITA though. The test port is directly below the pulsing cover, if my memory hasn't failed me yet. It's black, and kind of reminds me of a small rear drive fill cover/cap. Aluminum. May be an o-ring under it.... just like the rear drive fill cover.
Also, after thinking about it, my guess is that all the oil that builds up in the top end is returned to the sump by way of running over the edge at the cam chain. I don't see any other way for it's return. Do you have a better answer?
Nope. Drains down the cam chain opening :)
Rick
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Hi,
Thanks for your replies.
No, the oil light has not come on.
Here is a photo of a parts motor. I see what looks like another sensor, but I do not find it in the parts diagram, it has it's own wire that plugs in with the oil pressure sensor...... Is this the plug?
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no
the sensor you were pointing to with the screwdriver is the neutral indicator switch, the other wired connection down and further back is an oilnpressure switch, but is not where you attach the gage.
it is where Rick and TCro both said, just below the timing cover, the photo TCro posted with the blue hose is a bit decieving, as its rotated 90* cw, and the actual port it connects to is chopped off in the picture, it is where the left hand end of that hose is in the photo.
I can't recommend blowing out any of the upper oil passages using high pressure air, you might induce a blockage up top in a rocker shaft, or cam journal, and blowing back from the top down will purge all the lube from all the lines, which may again cause an issue down at the pump pickup screen.
it would also force air back thru the oil filter.
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Hi,
Thanks for your replies.
I realize now that I started asking questions before I thoroughly looked at the whole problem and gave it some thought. I misread where to look for the plug. So, I found the plug head. I read the procedure for testing the pump, I'll do the test first. I was planning on removing the "Y" tube, and the top end tubes and taking the rocker shafts apart before blowing air thru them, but now I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt, but probably is not where the problem lies. I'll make an update with what I find.
Thanks for the help,
Jim
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Here's a pic of the oil lines from my blown motor. The second pic is from the OEM repair manual to show where the plug is. Hopefully this helps. There is also a VERY good drawing/schematic of the oiling system in the book. I can clip that one if you need it (it's section 6-4 in my book).
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Thank you !
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The diagram...
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Just a side bar...
RFH87, how did you blow a hole in the engine like that?
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It's most likely the dreaded number 3 rod bearing being starved for oil. I never heard of this until it happened to me. I seems that some of the engines for one reason or another can have a starvation problem and most of the time its on number 3. I was coming back from SC to VA and it broke in the middle of NC after about 125 miles of 80mph or so. It was actually still running but made a HUGE racket. Still had about 2qts of oil in when I got it home. Somewhere on the forum here it is discussed. Now its my "parts" engine.
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concours_to_go Would it be possible for you to show us with some pictures what led you 'possible oil pump issue'
I thought it might be helpful to eliminate any other possibilities before going down this road. For example, your oil light has never come on so it might not be your oil pump.
Also you said it was not your cam chain. How do you know that?
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you don't have a pump problem. The criteria you're using for the oil pressure as being how much oil you see on the top isn't a viable method. Blowing out the passageways won't help anything if there's a pump or a clearance issue existing. Put a proper gauge on the main oil galley, or don't mess with it, you'll only make things worse. the main oil galley is the 14mm or 17 mm bolt (don't recall) that's below the timing cover.
Only 35 years engine building experience speaking.
steve
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :banghead:
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Only 35 years engine building experience speaking.
D*mn, yer gittin' old!! :rotflmao: :hail: :chugbeer:
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D*mn, yer gittin' old!! :rotflmao: :hail: :chugbeer:
Steve ain't old. He started when he was 6.
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So,
I got ahead of myself when I started this post and should have added a question mark on the end of it's title...Possible Oil Pump Failure...? I started this post without thoroughly looking into the problem, more like thinking out loud. I didn't include all the details of what lead up to my conclusion, partly because I can't remember clearly all of it. It started a couple months ago. Over a few days, the bike was running hotter than usual, but didn't overheat. It was making more valve train noise than usual. It has an APE manual cam chain tensioner, so nothing to fail there. I suspected there may be a problem, so I towed it to my shop and left it to deal with later, when I had some time. Clearly it's not getting enough oil in the top end, the cam chain and sprockets are dry, the camshafts are dry. There are small puddles of fresh clean oil on the cylinder head bottom surface. Some of the cams show light abrasion that looks new. There are some small pitted areas on a couple of the cams, not sure if they are new or not, I've only had this bike a short while. I'd add some photos, but really nothing out of the ordinary to see. I made an oil plug adapter from the plug off the parts engine. I have a tester and will follow the procedure in the manual.
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Steve ain't old. He started when he was 6.
i wish. I'm 56 next month. first engine I built I was 20 - 21, it was an aluminum 215 engine. Started doing bikes when I was maybe 23 or 24.
CTG, sorry your logic is flawed. the bike sat for 2 months. The oil has run off. St happens. So do cam pits. and manual tensioners need adjusting from time to time. And low oil pressure won't make it run warm, it will make it run seized. :o Steve
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The bike was completely serviced 2 months earlier to finding these symptoms. The valves were adjusted, cam chain adjusted, oil and filter changed, carbs cleaned, adjusted, synced, fresh coolant, new thermostat. It was running excellent, smooth and steady, no issues. Then over a few days I noticed it began to run warmer than usual, but never overheated. I checked the coolant it was full. Checked the cooling fan, it was working. It began to have more valve train noise, I saw it was full of oil, but didn't quiet down within a few seconds as it usually does as it is warming up. So, I "guessed" it may not be getting oil to the top end. As it would not take much for lower end to be normally lubricated, but the "Y" tube flow possibly obstructed and under feeding it with oil. So that was the last I did with it a few months ago.
I started off this post with a statement that should have been a question, and was also probably miss- titled, and if you read through all my comments, you can see I tried to clear that up.
So, what I am going to do is manually oil the camshafts, cam chain, and sprockets, just to be on the safe side, before I run the engine for the oil pressure test. If the pressure is correct, then I will manually remove the oil from the camshafts and run the engine again to see if the they are being lubricated as they should be.
So Steve, given the symptoms, What is your diagnosis?
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you've enumerated the symptoms, not me. in other words, I can't tell you if anything is wrong because I'm not getting the chance to see it for myself. OTOH, nothing in what you've written leads me to believe there's an oil pressure issue. now if you pulled the cams and the journals are cooked and the lobes are all spalled, then yeah, i see an oil pressure issue. but with what you've reported, I don't see an oiling issue.
Case in point... if there was insufficient oil to the top, and the cams are eating the head and rockers, then the noise is getting noticeably and obviously worse. if you think there's an oiling issue, and it's been going on then there's damage already, so blowing out the oil supply line is to little to late. pull the cams and inspect the journals if you are convinced there's an oil supply issue. Steve
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I'd have already hired steve for an engine analysis. but 3 pages of this is entertaining (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Ok, yes, I see your point about the cam journals. Might be too late, but I'll check them before I do the oil pressure test.
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This pic was taken 8 years ago on my first valve adjust and even though the pic is of poor quality you can see the scuffing, however it didn't look any worse last week when i adjusted my valves then it did 8 years ago, i think this was the 5th time i adjusted the valves.
i keep thinking they are gonna look worse every time i check them.
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Update...I inspected the camshaft journals, all looked normal. Did the oil pressure relief valve test, cold engine, should be 63 to 85 psi, at varied speeds (was not specific), passed. Oil pressure test done at operating temperature, 4000 rpm, should be 38 to 47 psi, passed.
So far, seems to be ok, maybe a false alarm, but better safe than sorry. Thanks for your comments.
Jim
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now just go ride, and enjoy... :chugbeer:
mmmmkay....?