Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: Rhino on April 24, 2015, 01:48:16 PM
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https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/gm-ford-others-want-working-own-car-illegal-160000229.html (https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/gm-ford-others-want-working-own-car-illegal-160000229.html)
13 auto makers support this legislation. I notice Honda and Nissan are not on the list. I own vehicles from both of them.
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I heard about this yesterday. Pretty asinine if you ask me.
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Looks like an attempt to repeal Magnuson-Moss by default.
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Not going to happen...
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Well..... blood pressure went through the roof when I first heard about this >:(....
Now that I've had a bit of time to cool down, other than minor maintenance, ie; oil/filter changes, brake maintenance, etc... you have to be a computer geek to diagnose running issues with vehicles anymore.
Thankfully, todays' vehicles are pretty darn reliable(for the most part anyway) & one heck of a lot more fuel efficient than vehicles from the 70's...
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"Ironically, one of the brands that relies most on technology in its vehicles — Tesla Motors — in not in support of DMCA. While other American companies like GM, Ford and Chrysler all agree that working on your own vehicle should be punishable by law."
Wasn't Tesla the one that got hacked recently?
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I could go along with this IF;
Manufacturers would do all repair and parts for FREE, This aftermarket includes parts covered by theMagnuson-Moss act.
If they "OWN" the vehicle and we just use/rent it aren't they responsible for repairs, modifications to suit the leasee's needs. Including all maintenance.
John Deer should look at Mahendra (spelling) tractors as the company that will replace them.
Bob Skinner
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I saw that and posted a thread about it on www.gm-trucks.com (http://www.gm-trucks.com).
Just try and stop me from doing what I want on my vehicles.
Although I do see it as possible someday in the future for liability reasons if nothing else. Someone will convince other vehicle owners that us guys who do our own work are making the world more dangerous for THEM by doing sub-standard repairs.
However, the comment in the article about removing unnecessary electronic crap so "we" won't be messing with it sits very well with me.
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I do believe that they are talking about modifying ECUs or the computers that run cars, not working on the mechanicals. It depends on how the act can be construed. There are quite a few sensors that communicate to the main computer and what about them? Does that apply as well? I guess we might find out. I haven't touched or modified any magic boxes in my vehicles and have no intention to do so. I was thinking of doing the re-flash to the bike but it has all the power I currently need so I'm thinking I'm staying stock on that.
How many of you modify the computers on your cars or remove sensors that communicate to the computer system?
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I do believe that they are talking about modifying ECUs or the computers that run cars, not working on the mechanicals. It depends on how the act can be construed. There are quite a few sensors that communicate to the main computer and what about them? Does that apply as well? I guess we might find out. I haven't touched or modified any magic boxes in my vehicles and have no intention to do so. I was thinking of doing the re-flash to the bike but it has all the power I currently need so I'm thinking I'm staying stock on that.
How many of you modify the computers on your cars or remove sensors that communicate to the computer system?
I changed the gear ratio and put larger tires on a truck. That required me to get a programmer and go in through the obd2 port to change the computer setting so the abs system would work properly. I coulda change shift points and a few other things as well.
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How many of you modify the computers on your cars or remove sensors that communicate to the computer system?
I do, well, sort of. I have software for communicating with the ECU in my Volkswagen TDI.
This software isn't a hack though...I bought it from a reputable USA company.
I do have access to some ECU control parameters...ignition timing, EGR valve control, some fueling, etc.
For me, it's more of a troubleshooting tool and for fine tuning.
After changing the timing belt in these cars, the timing must be set correctly...and you do need to somehow "speak" to the ECU in order to do so.
I also had the software for flashing the ECU in my C14, and I did so, many times.
I can't imagine any of the car manufacturers really worrying much about us changing our own oil and filters, or pads and rotors...but...I can certainly understand their concern over the average Joe with a credit card buying software that allows them to hack their own ECU's.
And this isn't new stuff...this has been going on for years.
The original OBDII system was for emissions controls...but it covers much more than that now. People disconnecting emissions system controls is one thing...while illegal in some states...it is not illegal in some others. Emissions issues are not safety issues...but they are moral issues.
Scenarios of concern that I can see are:
An end user that modifies his car's ECU, but then also flashes the stock programming back in before bringing the car into the dealer for a warranty claim. This happens.
An end user that gets sick of looking at an ABS malfunction light on the dash...and then goes into the ECU to disable the sensor, or module, etc in order to save the $600 required to repair the problem correctly. This happens.
Etc, etc, etc...
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Or the end user hacking the fedgov mandated 'black box' data recorder that uploads your every transgression to your insurance company and appropriate government agency.
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Or the end user hacking the fedgov mandated 'black box' data recorder that uploads your every transgression to your insurance company and appropriate government agency.
DING, DING, Ding,....We have a WINNER!!! :censored:
Precisely what that little black box was that FLO (Progressive insurance) wanted you to try out for free!! Both my boys wanted to give it a try & I reminded them that it WILL record ALL your BAD driving habits & you'll get priced accordingly..... >:(
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Even though I don't drive excessively, I won't use one of those little boxes. Any data will be used against you. Insurance companies are way down on my trust list. Even my agent says to put all communications through him rather than calling them directly. And yes, I am paranoid when it comes to that sort of thing.
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Makes you think...
http://www.wired.com/2014/08/car-hacking-chart/ (http://www.wired.com/2014/08/car-hacking-chart/)
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They can have my Snap On roll around tool chest when they pry it and my M14 from my cold, dead fingers.....
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The more of this I see, the more I want to sell my 2006 GMC truck and restore the 1990 Toyota truck. It only has 360,000 miles on it so it should be good for another 20 years or so. By then "they" won't let us drive ourselves anyway.
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Not sure most techs at Ford would know how to Time let alone work on my '84 Ford F250 6.9 IH IDI w/ Banks Turbo.
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How many of you modify the computers on your cars or remove sensors that communicate to the computer system?
I haven't yet on any of my cars or trucks but have done so on my C14. Also considered it on my Xterra. I put larger tires on it and wanted to reprogram to get a proper speedometer reading.
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I think that if something like that ooccurred, it would only throw down the gauntlet to the aftermarket and the enthusiasts. Let the party begin....
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I think that if something like that ooccurred, it would only throw down the gauntlet to the aftermarket and the enthusiasts. Let the party begin....
Agreed! But unfortunately here in Texas you have to get your car "inspected" every year to be able to register it. I could imagine them plugging into the OBD-II port to make sure you haven't changed anything.
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Inline units like a Power Commander will become more commonplace.
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It freaked me out when I took my truck to the Ford dealer and they told me i had been traveling at 98 mph at one time. I said "And?" My Mother died a long time ago, don't try to take her place.
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There was a big stink with Dodge truck owners that bought the powerful magnum engined sporty trucks. The customer would receive a recall notice and take it in, and later find out his truck had a top speed limiter programed in. The root of the recall was that the company did not put high speed rated tires on a truck that could reach substantial speeds. So instead of swapping the tires for proper ones, they just neutered the engine control software. When the owners tried to sue, the judge threw it out stating the national speed limit is no where near 90mph. Not much comfort for the people who spent multiple thousands extra for a performance truck. The aftermarket places helped get the trucks performing again.
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Agreed! But unfortunately here in Texas you have to get your car "inspected" every year to be able to register it. I could imagine them plugging into the OBD-II port to make sure you haven't changed anything.
WHen I lived in Texas, I had to carry a diagnostic tester to the inspection station and clear the memory codes so the inspection station would pass my wifes car. She only drove it a few blocks at a time and the emission equipment would fill up with miss fire and excessive rich codes. The car ran fine when driven long enough to warm up. Two more weeks of her "normal" use and it would be running rough when first started again. When a person drives the car 10 times a week and does not rack up 3500 miles in a year, keeping it in tune is impossible.
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There was a big stink with Dodge truck owners that bought the powerful magnum engined sporty trucks. The customer would receive a recall notice and take it in, and later find out his truck had a top speed limiter programed in. The root of the recall was that the company did not put high speed rated tires on a truck that could reach substantial speeds. So instead of swapping the tires for proper ones, they just neutered the engine control software. When the owners tried to sue, the judge threw it out stating the national speed limit is no where near 90mph. Not much comfort for the people who spent multiple thousands extra for a performance truck. The aftermarket places helped get the trucks performing again.
I thought those engines were for acceleration, not driving illegal speeds. ::) I would rather have a lower top speed and better acceleration which is why I dropped 4.10 gears in my GMC truck. Quite a difference over the 3.42s it came with.
My '69 Goat had 4.10s and 4 speed. Didn't go fast, but sure was quick! Especially for an 18 year old. Good thing I only had it for a few weeks.
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Well..... blood pressure went through the roof when I first heard about this >:(....
Now that I've had a bit of time to cool down, other than minor maintenance, ie; oil/filter changes, brake maintenance, etc... you have to be a computer geek to diagnose running issues with vehicles anymore.
Thankfully, todays' vehicles are pretty darn reliable(for the most part anyway) & one heck of a lot more fuel efficient than vehicles from the 70's...
i'm putting a modern LS1 fuel injected engine and modern 6 speed manual vette transmission in this 70's car, I expect 25-27 MPG hwy like the modern vettes/camaros/mustangs get.....
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/Camaro/camaro.jpg)