Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: mriboy on February 25, 2015, 11:02:59 AM
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So after reading on here about all the metal in the oil after first oil change decided to go ahead and do it and not wait to the 500 mile mark. I was shocked how much silver was in the oil and how heavy the filter was when I turned it upside down to drain out the filter was like sliver metallic model paint coming out. Also changed the final drive out it wasn't as bad but still pretty dirty. Thanks all for the heads up and I bet my bike will love having new blood in her. I plan on doing it again in about another 300 if the site glass gets looking that dirty again or 1k mark if its looking pretty fresh still.
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I think I did mine at 250, then 1800, then 5000...
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Did mine by the book. 600 then 7500 thereafter.
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Always do mine around 600 too the first time. I figure the metal floating around helps break in the engine better. Kinda like valve lapping compound.
I don't really think that, but I do wait until 600 miles to change it.
And since we have yet another oil thread, I'll step it up a notch. I used to change it after break in every 3,000 miles, but lately I've been going 5,000. Just something for you guys to mull over while it's cold out. ;D
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I have y'all's cousin, the ZX14R, and when I changed my oil the first time (at break-in, 600 mi, 900, whatever it was) I drained it into a black pan and saw no metal at all. Nothin but dark-ish colored oil. Then poured all that through a filter, still nuthin.
Makes me wonder why Kawi's would be so different ???
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Sounds like someone already used yours. ;)
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I usually change my break in oil at 50 miles after doing break in drills.
I bought the connie 500 miles from home so I had to wait until I got home. :(
All looked good though and 30,000 miles later it still looks good. Of course there have been several oil changes between now and then.
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Always do mine around 600 too the first time. I figure the metal floating around helps break in the engine better. Kinda like valve lapping compound.
I don't really think that, but I do wait until 600 miles to change it.
And since we have yet another oil thread, I'll step it up a notch. I used to change it after break in every 3,000 miles, but lately I've been going 5,000. Just something for you guys to mull over while it's cold out. ;D
I've always gone 5,000 miles in all water cooled engines, and even my air-cooled 911. Never had any engine problems whatsoever.
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I used to change it after break in every 3,000 miles, but lately I've been going 5,000.
If I ride that many miles in a year (it's usually less), will do exactly the same thing. This bike has by far the most oil of any bike. In fact, it has EXACTLY the same 5-qt capacity than my 550HP GTR (which is ridiculous IMO, when most such cars have close to 10 and above). And will do its first at 600 miles; anything less is overkill IMO, and I'm a maintenance freak ;D. At only 66 miles now, I won't be able to ride for a few more months :-[. Oh well. Need to make it first, and then will worry about riding ;). Have a good one.
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Just don't put 5 quarts in it after a change. You'll over fill it. 4.7qts normally after a filter change. 5 quarts on a dry fill.
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Just don't put 5 quarts in it after a change. You'll over fill it. 4.7qts normally after a filter change.
I never do, but great advice. Always drain oil overnight, fill 1/2-qt below capacity, fire up engine for a couple of minutes, shut it off, then adjust level to the 3/4 mark when oil is cold. On a wet-sump engine, hot or cold makes very little difference (but I allow that 1/4 margin), but cold is super consistent... especially if you always park the bike at the same spot in your garage. That's my method anyway ;D.
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25 miles is always my first oil change number. Then again at about 600-1000, depends on what I find in the first oil change. After that standard change intervals.
attached are a couple pics from a CBR250R that I recently did, there was a ton of silvery flake in the oil and the filter, plus some black silicone strips and more.
Certainly can't be good for those to be circulating, and certainly can't possibly hurt to change the oil "early" to remove them.
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there was a ton of silvery flake in the oil and the filter, plus some black silicone strips and more. Certainly can't be good for those to be circulating, and certainly can't possibly hurt to change the oil "early" to remove them.
Theoretically, they aren't circulating, because they are caught by the oil filter if they are light enough that they could circulate. And if they are heavy enough to not get caught by the oil filter, then they are sitting at the bottom of the pan and won't be circulating. I suppose the biggest risk is clogging the oil filter and the possible damage by the much smaller particles that can go through the filter.
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I'm kinda amazed you guys got the filter off in the first place, and hopefully you didn't torque it to the 13 ft/lbs suggested in the FSM.... you'll regret that.
As for the silver bits, play the magnet game with them.. You'll find very little Iron there... mostly aluminum, and the Moly assembly lube used during assembly... it makes the oil silvery... bigtime...
changing prior to 600 miles ain't frugal, it's wasteful, the filter works, and the aluminum.... well it's a soft metal.
just don't switch off to synth too soon, before everything seats well, lest you have consumption issues.... until Kaw delivers bikes with synth oil, fully break it in with the oils they prescribe.
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Aluminum may well be a "soft" metal but so are the cam caps, rod bearings, main bearings, oil pump housing and so many other parts and pieces they pass through.
( I will see if I can scroll though some pics and post them up of numerous cam caps, oil pumps, rod bearings etc all having scores in them at extremely low mileages, not to mention how many times I have seen a "chip" of aluminum stuck to crank gears or transmission gears)
And as far as circulating, you do realize that not all of the oil goes through the oil filter all the time, there is the bypass valve (pressure relief valve) and that is always open to some extent when the engine is running, thus how it maintains the prescribed oil pressure. Otherwise you would have; say 20 psi at idle and 100 psi at redline
Theoretically you could get the same oil and particulate matter to bypass the filter with every pass through the pump. (unlikely but theoretically it could happen)
As far as the filter catching everything, yeah right. You do know the oe filters are only rated to 20 microns at 96%, they don't even rate them for anything smaller- but you can bet the percentage is significantly lower on smaller particulate.
I know full well the difference between assy lube and actual aluminum- pretty obvious distinction, remember I have been working on motorcycles for 33 years now.
So you go ahead and take your chances, I will not- I have had atleast 80 brand new engines apart with under 100 miles on them and know exactly how much stuff is left in the engine from the machining and honing processes. (engines getting set up for racing, but virtually brand new off the showfloor)
I think many of these forum posts on this forum and others, is just some biased bullshit because people want things to be easy and cheap. Not actually based on facts- just like all those who claim to have never needed to adjust the valve clearances, because "they were fine" what a crock of ****
We had this discussion before and in thousands of motorcycles that I have done valve clearance inspection on, never once have I found a motorcycle to not need numerous valve clearances adjusted..
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In the grand scheme of things, oil is really cheap. After spending a couple hundred on a tire that may or may not go 10,000 miles, a $30 oil change is a bargain.
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Aluminum may well be a "soft" metal but so are the cam caps, rod bearings, main bearings, oil pump housing and so many other parts and pieces they pass through.
( I will see if I can scroll though some pics and post them up of numerous cam caps, oil pumps, rod bearings etc all having scores in them at extremely low mileages, not to mention how many times I have seen a "chip" of aluminum stuck to crank gears or transmission gears)
And as far as circulating, you do realize that not all of the oil goes through the oil filter all the time, there is the bypass valve (pressure relief valve) and that is always open to some extent when the engine is running, thus how it maintains the prescribed oil pressure. Otherwise you would have; say 20 psi at idle and 100 psi at redline
Theoretically you could get the same oil and particulate matter to bypass the filter with every pass through the pump. (unlikely but theoretically it could happen)
As far as the filter catching everything, yeah right. You do know the oe filters are only rated to 20 microns at 96%, they don't even rate them for anything smaller- but you can bet the percentage is significantly lower on smaller particulate.
I know full well the difference between assy lube and actual aluminum- pretty obvious distinction, remember I have been working on motorcycles for 33 years now.
So you go ahead and take your chances, I will not- I have had atleast 80 brand new engines apart with under 100 miles on them and know exactly how much stuff is left in the engine from the machining and honing processes. (engines getting set up for racing, but virtually brand new off the showfloor)
I think many of these forum posts on this forum and others, is just some biased bullshit because people want things to be easy and cheap. Not actually based on facts- just like all those who claim to have never needed to adjust the valve clearances, because "they were fine" what a crock of ****
We had this discussion before and in thousands of motorcycles that I have done valve clearance inspection on, never once have I found a motorcycle to not need numerous valve clearances adjusted..
The way I look at it---oil is cheap; engines are expensive. I have always erred on the side of caution. It might cost me a few extra bucks; but all my motors have made great power and never burnt oil.(Maybe just lucky so far, but why chance it). I usually change at 100, 500, and 1500; then every 3000. I also have always run dino oil for the first 6000 or so before switching to synthetic.
We each have our little break in rituals, if it works for you; go for it. :chugbeer:
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We each have our little break in rituals, if it work for you; go for it. :chugbeer:
:goodpost: ......nuff said and keep it civil.
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I will run my new 2014 to 600 miles. Then use Amsoil 10W40MCF and a Amsoil 103 filter, too. On the 2009 Connie. The valve cover gasket needed replacing @ 21K miles. The mechanic commented on how clean the internal surfaces looked. Whatever oil you choose, choose wisely and not cheaply. IMHO
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I will run my new 2014 to 600 miles. Then use Amsoil 10W40MCF and a Amsoil 103 filter, too. On the 2009 Connie. The valve cover gasket needed replacing @ 21K miles. The mechanic commented on how clean the internal surfaces looked. Whatever oil you choose, choose wisely and not cheaply. IMHO
http://youtu.be/-_IlNbsILLE (http://youtu.be/-_IlNbsILLE)
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This is what happens when you don't...
http://youtu.be/36WEn-9zs1U (http://youtu.be/36WEn-9zs1U)
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Interesting stuff... I'm curious where the 20 micron absolute rating came from with regard to the OEM kaw filter... I have to assume it was based on conjecture and generic data of "sumpin found on the internet... so it must be true"
There is much more to filter rating than the given figure....
The highest inefficiency of an oil filter is when it is new. That said, if this filter can only go to 20 microns, based on new, everytime that filter is replaced, it will allow everything just below 20 microns to pass thru it. 20 microns is ,00078"
Now, the basis of reasoning with an OEM situation where it is spec'd to do a change, is that as the filter traps more and more particles, the filter efficiency rises, to the point where somewheres right before pressure loss becomes an issue, the filter is stopping detritus down to 1 micron...
As an emgineer myself, I have great faith that unlike some lifecycle failurs of mechanical parts that could not be foreseen, the oil filtration and filter chioce and cycle or replacement from a new engine HAS been intensively studied prior to making the chices on Lad's part saying it is safe. I'm willing to bet that in all actuality there was an very large safety margin applied to these figure. It would be foolish to believe they did not use exhaustive testing to insure these engines won't blow up, or be damaged, simply because of the costs involved, and the tainted reputation it would bring down.....
They KNOW as the filter collects debris, it becomes exponentially better at catching small particles, and I'm sure they did due diligence with respect to this.
This engine was the culmination of many years of development, and prior model 1400 Ninja abuse as a viable test bed on wear. They didn't simply stuff a development engine into a production line "hoping" it would last......
I'm not saying to neglect a fiter change, or oil replacement based on a mileage, but reasonable expectencies on a breakin imho are about 300, 900, 2000, and then you should be safe to run 3000 increments without issue. After 10k it is not unreasonable to run 4k intervals dependant on riding patterns, I.e. long freeway runs vs short hard round town blasting or dusty roads etc.
I suggest someone querry Dan Bergmen on the filter values, he has been down this road, and has viable data and testing results for many major filters compiled during the development of the spin on oil filter adapter for the C10.
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I've been doing 5k mile changes since the Kaws came home... My prius is 10k.
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I've been doing 5k mile changes since the Kaws came home... My prius is 10k.
I took a poll of all my vehicles and they all agreed that 5,000 mile oil changes was just fine with them, along with a shot of Lucas fuel conditioner for good measure, thank you.
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I travelled out of state 1200 miles to get my bike.The dealer that i got it from knew full well that I wouldn't be travelling back 1200 miles to take of advantage of their first free oil change that they give to all new bike purchases. They still were adamant that the oil should be changed at 500 miles, said that they have seen all kinds of crap come out oil first change, even small pieces of gasket.
So, I stopped along the way, changed it and strapped the oil change thingy to my rear rack.