Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: tomp on December 09, 2014, 04:37:01 PM
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The best improvement for '15 is the lower price point. $700 savings is nothing to sneeze at in today's economy. Two competitors, Trophy SE and R1200RT, both had price increases for '15. The widening gap, should make the 14 more appealing in the ST buying pool.
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Two competitors, Trophy SE and R1200RT, both had price increases for '15.
I don't know much about BMW's, so I can't really comment all that much on them, but I have had a couple Triumphs, and there's no way I could consider them worthy competitors to Japanese bikes.
Don't get me wrong, I think Triumph makes some very cool bikes, with fantastic curb appeal, and very cool sounding (and feeling) triple cylinder engines. It's their reliability that I find troubling.
Back when I was hanging out on Triumph forums, I was disturbed by the amount of threads on cracked pistons, burning oil, loose bearings, and faulty electrical components. I saw more than a few comments where guys that go on trips carry oil with them in their side cases. I guess it's all part of the membership to the club...because the bikes have what people call "character" and all/any shortcomings are part of the price one pays to wear those t-shirts...lol.
I do like Triumphs...I like the way most of them look, and the song that triple engine makes is quite cool....I just wouldn't consider them to be reliable bikes....not when comparing to Japanese reliability.
Rem
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I don't know much about BMW's, so I can't really comment all that much on them, but I have had a couple Triumphs, and there's no way I could consider them worthy competitors to Japanese bikes.
Don't get me wrong, I think Triumph makes some very cool bikes, with fantastic curb appeal, and very cool sounding (and feeling) triple cylinder engines. It's their reliability that I find troubling.
Back when I was hanging out on Triumph forums, I was disturbed by the amount of threads on cracked pistons, burning oil, loose bearings, and faulty electrical components. I saw more than a few comments where guys that go on trips carry oil with them in their side cases. I guess it's all part of the membership to the club...because the bikes have what people call "character" and all/any shortcomings are part of the price one pays to wear those t-shirts...lol.
I do like Triumphs...I like the way most of them look, and the song that triple engine makes is quite cool....I just wouldn't consider them to be reliable bikes....not when comparing to Japanese reliability.
Rem
I was using the Trophy, because it is an ST bike with all the bells and whistles of most others on the market. I've owned three different Triumphs, and though I never had a single problem, I never became friends with any of them.
The two mentioned bikes were chosen to show that other companies had raised their MSRP's while Kawi had gone down on the C14, even with the added changes and improvements. tomp
Oh, and until recently, sold Triumphs, BMW's and Kawasaki's, among other brands, and was familiar with the pricing changes. tp
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I don't know much about BMW's, so I can't really comment all that much on them...
I do, so I think I can ;)
I haven't had any problem whatsoever with the BMWs that I had (2), but I can't look the other way when hearing the appalling reliability of their shafts or the feeling of their gearboxes. For premium price I expect premium product, not premium marketing. Silly me?
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Of course 'Silly you'. How dare you do the research and make an informed intelligent decision after all that money was spent to convince you otherwise. Now swallow the line and wash it down with this koolaid and we won't have to sent you back to camp. 8)
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I do, so I think I can ;)
I haven't had any problem whatsoever with the BMWs that I had (2), but I can't look the other way when hearing the appalling reliability of their shafts or the feeling of their gearboxes. For premium price I expect premium product, not premium marketing. Silly me?
Really? :rotflmao:
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A different gear ratio for easier starts? I think the better solution is a GUHL like reflash, where you have extra power when taking off, courtesy of not having flies choke off air.
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that green and flat black color combo is big pimpin' (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/blingbling.gif)
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I think most who coudl afford 15,499 would be ok to go at 16,100.
The extra money coudl have gone towards cruise control or better suspension. A few extra hundred in manufacturing equals several thousands spent on improving.
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I think most who coudl afford 15,499 would be ok to go at 16,100.
The extra money coudl have gone towards cruise control or better suspension. A few extra hundred in manufacturing equals several thousands spent on improving.
They are not going to add cruise until they change the electronics with an overhaul (I have been saying that for years), and at this point it would be drive-by-wire. But you are right that aftermarket costs a LOT more than if they add it in. My bet is (and has been) on the 2016 model...
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Yep, it's about time to start the 2016 thread...
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Yep, it's about time to start the 2016 thread...
Hope they don't mess it up when they make changes. So many "ride by wire" bikes have jerky on/off throttle problems, and sometimes delayed reaction to throttle movements. Also adding a sound system that can't be heard over city street speeds is all too common. The fewer electronic doo dads, the better in my way of reasoning.
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Hope they don't mess it up when they make changes.
Really. It would SUCK if they changed the dash and got rid of the two large analog dials. Most all bikes now have a stupid digital-only readout.
So many "ride by wire" bikes have jerky on/off throttle problems,
Actually, I think the C14 already has that problem without drive by wire. But it is fixed fairly easily and cheaply with a G2 Ergonomics Throttle Tamer. The problem with drive-by-wire is that it will be FAR more difficult to fix, since it will be programmed that way and will require reprogramming to fix. And if nobody can or is willing to crack it, there is an issue. Same with with secondary butterflies- those are rendered obsolete by drive-by-wire and, again, it would require reprogramming to fix.
Also adding a sound system that can't be heard over city street speeds is all too common.
And a waste of time and money. And just annoys other people (like loud mufflers). Music needs to be in the helmet where it belongs.
The fewer electronic doo dads, the better in my way of reasoning.
I love electronic doo-dads... when they are done correctly. Imagine a C14 3gen with moving and self-adjusting LED headlights, super large color display that is customizable, handlebar mounted multi-control, mirror-mounted turn signals (front/back/side visible), integrated driving lamps, GPS, convenience lighting in mirrors and hard bags, intelligent cruise control, adjustable power suspension, fully adjustable ABS/ linking/engine setting, integrated 2-way communication KIPASS with anti-tamper notification/alarm. There are so many possibilities of things that could be done well with electronics.
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It's funny MAxtog, but I don't sense the throttle to be jerky at all, actually quite smooth response, to my input. I still have the flys in though, and they, in my opinion , assist in that smoothness.
The electronics are things like ESA with active suspension, Quick shifters, Multi level traction and ABS controls. Overly sophisticated computers, with dozens of read outs. The kinds of things that are on the K1600GT/L's that make them cost $10-15,000 more than our C14's. Almost as bad with the new R1200RT's, too. Ducati is almost as bad with The panegale's and Diavel's.
All I really want is CRUISE CONTROL, that works as well as Harley's and BMW's. Both function perfectly. I've owned both, and do miss it..tomp
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The only reason KHI is lowering the C-14 price for 2015 models while making subtle changes is to spike the sales volume. It will no doubt further erode resale and make the remaining 2014's hard to move also. Don't get me wrong, I think the C-14 has the best value of any bike on the road, I just don't think a price reduction is the right tactic. It will **** off the people that have already bought the 2014's and most dealers were discounting to begin with- a bad move IMO.
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The only reason KHI is lowering the C-14 price for 2015 models while making subtle changes is to spike the sales volume. It will no doubt further erode resale and make the remaining 2014's hard to move also. Don't get me wrong, I think the C-14 has the best value of any bike on the road, I just don't think a price reduction is the right tactic. It will **** off the people that have already bought the 2014's and most dealers were discounting to begin with- a bad move IMO.
Yep, agree. The dealership where I worked still has '13's, selling for $11.6K. Who would pay $4K more for the few changes on the '15? My 1st gear is fine, and I don't need a hole in my windshield. How many others would see the price difference as worth it?
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It's funny MAxtog, but I don't sense the throttle to be jerky at all, actually quite smooth response, to my input.
I only had the problem in first and maybe second at low speed. Very common complaint. I waited far too long to put in the Throttle Tamer.
I still have the flys in though, and they, in my opinion , assist in that smoothness.
OMG, you really need to either remove them or reflash the ECU to mute them. You won't believe the difference in response. The only negative is there is some additional intake noise.
The kinds of things that are on the K1600GT/L's that make them cost $10-15,000 more than our C14's.
The primary reason those cost so much is that they have three letters on them.... Although some of the features, like the suspension stuff... that can be expensive. Computer and electronics are cheap (expensive to design and debug, but the actual equipment is cheap).
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Yep, agree. The dealership where I worked still has '13's, selling for $11.6K. Who would pay $4K more for the few changes on the '15? My 1st gear is fine, and I don't need a hole in my windshield. How many others would see the price difference as worth it?
The price difference certainly wouldn't be worth it for me....in fact, I wouldn't upgrade from an 08-09 model either.
Are we calling the 2015 model the "third gen" yet?...lol.
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Are we calling the 2015 model the "third gen" yet?...lol.
I'm not. It has maybe 15% the significance of the 1gen to 2gen changes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_1400GTR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_1400GTR)
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I'm not. It has maybe 15% the significance of the 1gen to 2gen changes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_1400GTR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_1400GTR)
Agree. Real change came with the huge improvements from the C10 to the C14 Gen l. So little the same, except they were both two wheel motorized conveyances. Gen 2 from Gen l, basically changed complaint problems and added TC, ABS, etc to stay up with the market. The '15's changes seem rather superfluous, I imagine to current owners of either l or ll models, not worthy of a Gen name of it's own. If it had been, Kawi would have pushed the changes harder on the marketplace.
To create a real new Gen lll, the changes need to be on the order of the upgrade between the C10 and the C14, or just leave it alone and continue to be the low price leader in the ST world.
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The '15's changes seem rather superfluous,
To me the timing just seems really odd. I have been convinced for years that 2016 would be the next major Concours revamp (drive-by-wire, cruise, dash, some plastics, headlights, etc) based on what they did with other models, how the ZX changed, design patterns, etc. Now I am wondering if that is going to be delayed.
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GEN 2.1 is warranted for the 2015.
I think the first gear ratio change justifies this. I'm not saying it's a good or bad change, I just think that any change that can't be easily retrofitted to earlier models (not such as {I suspect} the windshield, steering stem seals, perhaps rear suspension would seem to be.) without engine dis-assembly should get some sort of recognition just so newbies don't think that they are all alike. I, like many, suspect that Kawasaki might come out with a special 2016 anniversary model, but then again they may leave it the same for the next ten years. To someone thinking about buying a used model in say 2021 for touring with a loaded roll a home camping trailer, the difference between a used 2014 model and a used 2015 model has significance just because of the gear ratio change.
Even the change in the linked braking seems significant. Second only to the muffler and perhaps lack of a factory cruise control, so many complain here about the intrusiveness of the linked brakes that I find it hard to believe that when Mama Kaw addresses the issue, it is suddenly an insignificant superfluous change?
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To me the timing just seems really odd. I have been convinced for years that 2016 would be the next major Concours revamp (drive-by-wire, cruise, dash, some plastics, headlights, etc) based on what they did with other models, how the ZX changed, design patterns, etc. Now I am wondering if that is going to be delayed.
The 15 could be just an interim model to keep buyers interested until the real Gen lll can be delivered. Triumph did it. They took a great model, the 1050 Sprint ST, and made a few ergo changes and heralded it to the public as the all new and improved Sprint GT. Then they turned right around and dropped it almost immediately for the Trophy 1200. The GT model kept buyers talking and interested in Triumph in the ST world, until the Trophy could be presented, then dropped it like a red headed step child.
I am sure there are engineers and bean counters looking at the Concours, deciding what to do next. Guess only time will tell. The 10 and 14 both got a lot of attention and press when released. This year it's been the H2/H2R. Perhaps it will be the Concours turn soon. Maybe a C14R?
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I think the first gear ratio change justifies this. I'm not saying it's a good or bad change, I just think that any change that can't be easily retrofitted to earlier models[...] without engine dis-assembly should get some sort of recognition just so newbies don't think that they are all alike.
That is a very good point. Although I do think the transmission is otherwise identical. So I suspect the only change would be two gears... in which case one could swap the whole transmission between years or even just the two gears. Certainly not an EASY change (like a windscreen) but it is hardly like trying to add ABS, traction control, linked brakes, variable grip heaters, all new plastics, frame alterations for mirror mounts, different oil pan, etc, etc (as we saw in gen1->2). Also, it seems like such an unnecessary and even perhaps even pointless change. Makes one wonder if they were just looking for something easy and cheap to change just to say "look, it is changed!"
I, like many, suspect that Kawasaki might come out with a special 2016 anniversary model
Yep, so a one-year stopgap seems so very odd. Perhaps a "hold on... a lot more coming... not quite ready..."
Even the change in the linked braking seems significant.
I am a computer guy- so to me a few bytes change in a firmware table seems so very minor (even if the effect is appreciable). In theory, it should be something that could be changed on the older ABS ECU, if it is at all programmable. So the programability is probably key.
2.1, perhaps
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I am a computer guy- so to me a few bytes change in a firmware table seems so very minor (even if the effect is appreciable). In theory, it should be something that could be changed on the older ABS ECU, if it is at all programmable. So the programability is probably key.
2.1, perhaps
And yet whenever software/firmware gets updated it is released with an incremented number or designation not unlike 2.1, is it not?
Kawasaki says they have a whole new ABS module and I think I've read somewhere that it is smaller. Some of the reviews call it a ABS ECU, but looking at the wiring diagram (previous years) it appears that any ABS ECU resides entirely in side the Main ECU and that the "ABS Module" is simply referred to as the "ABS hydraulic unit" which I have always assumed was just lines and electric valves and pump. What I'm saying is that I think it is more than just a few program changes and different master cylinders involved in the brake changes. I guess we won't know for sure until the part numbers come out. I wonder if just changing the color of the plastic reservoirs constitutes "new" master cylinders.
In rereading the Kawasaki (and second hand reviews) I'm not sure if there has been any real change to the suspension. I've heard it called recalibrated, but I've also heard that it just leaves the factory with more preload dialed in ("The adjustable rear suspension was stiffened on the initial preload setting"), which I guess could be referred to as re-calibrated and barely still be honest and yet skillfully mislead us into thinking that something there has really changed.
I only very recently read (Wikipedia) that the red trouble light has been changed to yellow? Info that I missed somehow, but I have since seen a photo (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Concours-middle3-730x450.jpg) of it. Wow perhaps 2.2?
Yes I'm joking about the 2.2, I still think that 2.1 is justified.
I know some think that Kawasaki isn't listening to us, but they have made the attempt to fix the windshield, the seat, and the linked brakes that so many have complained of.
The first gear change...?..I don't know where they got that from (Police maybe?), but then I haven't ridden a 2015 around the cones in a parking lot so maybe it is an improvement. Instead of listening to us (many that have purchased a C14 already), perhaps Kawasaki listens to those on other bike's forums where folks say why they didn't buy a C14, or maybe those that traded their C14s in with very low miles?
The new CATS and the associated ECU updating I can only guess that somewhere in the world where the C14 is marketed that the emissions rules have changed.
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I know some think that Kawasaki isn't listening to us, but they have made the attempt to fix the windshield, the seat, and the linked brakes that so many have complained of.
Should actual innovations or simply fixing what should have never been sold in the first place, be the grounds for a generational number change. Since to sell the bike, KHI must provide it with a windshield, a seat, painted panels, brakes, etc, trading out each, one for one on a new model probably wasn't an expensive investment on their part. Knowing that, and not wanting to be accused of actually not providing more than was needed, they decided to lower the MSRP, to show the benevolence to their customers.
Growing up in the 50's every year model change for cars was noticeable. We knew the difference between a '56 57 58, 59. 60, for almost two more decades. That's all gone now. All cars resemble a suppository, a brick, or a wedge door stop. Same with motorcycles, today. From a little distance an '08 C14 and a '15 so resemble each other, if it wasn't for colors and NEW BOLD GRAPHICS, few here could tell what the year was, being seen. Just some thoughts. Better than political discussions, anyway.
Oh, the graphics comment was actually pointed at their KLR650 marketing group.
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Kawasaki says they have a whole new ABS module and I think I've read somewhere that it is smaller. Some of the reviews call it a ABS ECU, but looking at the wiring diagram (previous years) it appears that any ABS ECU resides entirely in side the Main ECU and that the "ABS Module" is simply referred to as the "ABS hydraulic unit" which I have always assumed was just lines and electric valves and pump.
Hmm. Now I am even more interested to know exactly what has changed other than the table in the firmware. Based on the service manual, I was fairly sure it is a separate computer, not part of the main ECU (it shows having a separate connector). It looks like the ABS "computer" and hydraulic unit are the same thing. I am attaching a photo of the diagram.
What I'm saying is that I think it is more than just a few program changes
That is, of course, possible. But if all that has changed is the "linking effect", which could be translated as the amount of linking and when it is linked, that can be as simple as a table change without a single line of code change and certainly no hardware changes. Like you said, I guess we will see (hopefully).
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.... or simply fixing what should have never been sold in the first place, ...
..so this is a thread about BMW drivetrain problems? :rotflmao:
Growing up in the 50's every year model change for cars was noticeable. We knew the difference between a '56 57 58, 59. 60, for almost two more decades.
Yeah, me too. Being a kid with a kid's logic, I recall after many of the '58s came out with double headlights that the '59s would come out with triples. I didn't
really have a grasp of the high beam low beam concept then. We kids all thought the highest number on the speedometer had some significance to actual top speed back then. ::)
Being an owner of a Suzuki DR650 which hasn't changed since the stone age (except for colors and graphics), the changes for the C14 seem somewhat regular, but I'm going to shut up now lest I be mistaken for a mama Kaw shill.
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Yeah, me too. Being a kid with a kid's logic, I recall after many of the '58s came out with double headlights that the '59s would come out with triples. I didn't
really have a grasp of the high beam low beam concept then. We kids all thought the highest number on the speedometer had some significance to actual top speed back then. ::)
Check out this site. Now you can have it all, in one. . .tp
http://www.n2amotors.com/pdfs/789buyerpacket.pdf (http://www.n2amotors.com/pdfs/789buyerpacket.pdf)
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Hmm. Now I am even more interested to know exactly what has changed other than the table in the firmware. Based on the service manual, I was fairly sure it is a separate computer, not part of the main ECU (it shows having a separate connector). It looks like the ABS "computer" and hydraulic unit are the same thing. I am attaching a photo of the diagram.
:goodpost:
.... but looking at the wiring diagram (previous years) it appears that any ABS ECU resides entirely in side the Main ECU and that the "ABS Module" is simply referred to as the "ABS hydraulic unit" which I have always assumed was just lines and electric valves and pump. .
↑ :nuts: :thumbdown
I've done some more research, and I think what I said earlier about the ABS ECU being in the Main ECU is a bunch of hooey, or in keeping with the situation (season) a bunch of Humbug. I looked back at the '09 ABS wiring diagram and the wheel speed sensors aren't even hooked up to the main ECU so that would mean that all of the brains of the ABS are actually in the (not so aptly named) "ABS Hydraulic Unit". Apparently the later years have the wheel speed sensors hooked into the Main ECU just for the traction control.
Thanks Max, the diagram you posted from the shop manual made me rethink as there just were not enough wires going to the ECU in that diagram.
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I've done some more research, and I think what I said earlier about the ABS ECU being in the Main ECU is a bunch of hooey, or in keeping with the situation (season) a bunch of Humbug. I looked back at the '09 ABS wiring diagram and the wheel speed sensors aren't even hooked up to the main ECU so that would mean that all of the brains of the ABS are actually in the (not so aptly named) "ABS Hydraulic Unit". Apparently the later years have the wheel speed sensors hooked into the Main ECU just for the traction control.
Yeah, the ABS ECU is actually part of the whole ABS hydraulic module. It is separate from the FI ECU.
When you look under the seat of your bike, just to the right of the main ECU and relay pack on top of it, you'll see two diagnostic connectors stuffed in a foam block. One is for the main FI ECU, and the other is for the ABS ECU. I think the first gen C14 models actually had three plugs there?...I can't remember, but the second gen C14 only has two.
Rem
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Too bad they didn't fix the high beam indicator (make it dimmer). WHen using the high beams, that things is like a blue laser, burning into my eye.
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Too bad they didn't fix the high beam indicator (make it dimmer). WHen using the high beams, that things is like a blue laser, burning into my eye.
+1
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The '15 is sweet 8)
I'd have to pick through the sweeter leftover deals first, though!
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Hard to stretch a buck fifty more than two and a half hours.
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I'd die of boredom trying to do that. Average day for me is 300+ unless I really needed to get somewheres.
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" This past weekend we took a fairly long one day (roughly 150 miles) ride....." :o
Yeah... but these are the type of guys who post "low mileage" bikes for sale on CL... you know, the 2006 with 1200 miles on it.
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150 miles isn't even far enough to ride before breakfast. It's 120 round trip just for me to deliver parts. More often than not, I can't clear my head with one tank of gas.
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More often than not, I can't clear my head with one tank of gas.
+1
amazing how the truth can be written.
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More often than not, I can't clear my head with one tank of gas.
+2 Well said!
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There was mention elsewhere of a possible catalytic change and also ECU programming related to at least the first gear change, but also possibly emissions. So far I haven't seen anything definitive about it, so it still seems more like a rumor. My concern is, while *nobody* cares about some possible internal catalytic change (talk about meaningless), a change to the ECU programming could greatly affect compatibility with the Guhl flash and maybe also a [non-autotuning] PCV.
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...a change to the ECU programming could greatly affect compatibility with the Guhl flash and maybe also a [non-autotuning] PCV.
I don't think it would greatly effect anything. Outside of the STP map changes in the Guhl ECU reflash, the changes in fueling were very minimal, so to make a Guhl ECU flash work on a 2015 with a slightly changed FI ECU wouldn't be any more work than simply copying and pasting.
As far as a PCV is concerned, it shouldn't effect anything at all. The PCV doesn't care what is in the ECU...it only modifies the signal between the ECU and the throttlebody assembly, nothing more.
I'd bet the FI ECU changes have more to do with the new linked braking action than first gear improvements...but that's just my own guesstimate;).
Rem :o
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I don't think it would greatly effect anything. Outside of the STP map changes in the Guhl ECU reflash, the changes in fueling were very minimal, so to make a Guhl ECU flash work on a 2015 with a slightly changed FI ECU wouldn't be any more work than simply copying and pasting. As far as a PCV is concerned, it shouldn't effect anything at all. The PCV doesn't care what is in the ECU...it only modifies the signal between the ECU and the throttlebody assembly, nothing more.
OK, that is good news, then, as long as Kawasaki hasn't played anything tricky on us. I had thoughts of "as long as we are in here messing around, might as well change the DRM/passwords/etc, which could make things a pain for Guhl. Seems like a low probability, though.
I'd bet the FI ECU changes have more to do with the new linked braking action than first gear improvements...but that's just my own guesstimate;). Rem :o
I think your guesstimate is pretty dern good.
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Too bad they didn't fix the high beam indicator (make it dimmer). WHen using the high beams, that things is like a blue laser, burning into my eye.
I detailed my fix for that excessively bright high beam indicator way back in 2009 on the original forum before they erased it and all the tech stuff that was posted. (Supposedly to prevent a big legal battle)
I'll look around for my original instructions on the fix. There is a very specific value resistor you need to add to the back side of your dash panel. Pretty easy fix.
Mick
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We would be most grateful..
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We would be most grateful..
Sorry Jim,
The text is gone and I have no notes on the size of the resistor. The indicator is an LED and I 'believe' the resistor is something very low, like 56 Ohms installed inline with the
Red supply wire at position #1 of the indicator/Display connector as described on page 16-104 of the hard copy 2010 Service manual.
I'll remove the heat-shrink tubing from my resistor if I'm ever back in that area. I had to try several different values to get the indicator dimmed but not off. As it is, my indicator is visible in daylight but not blinding at night. Mine is on a lot since I have the headlamp modulators installed.
I will add a picture here:
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/bmwmick/Kawi%20C14%20Stuff/C-14%20High%20Beam%20Indicator/IMG_0485.jpg)
Mick
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Thanks, Mick.
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I have split off the stuff not about 2015 reviews into this thread. The other/original thread is here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=18571.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=18571.0)
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As supplied by fartymarty, the only change in gears (all else is the same, including final drive):
2008-2014 1st gear = 3.333 (50/15)
2015 1st gear = 3.538 (46/13)