Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: lather on December 17, 2014, 06:33:49 AM
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I never really understood how to use dialectric grease until now.
http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/images/polish.dielectric.png (http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/images/polish.dielectric.png)
From motoelectric http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/index.html (http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/index.html)
My Ducati superbike has a starting problem so I bought Motoelectric's high capacity starter circuit upgrade kit.
My 08 Concours 14 has never had a starting problem and they don't make a kit for it anyway but thought the info was worth sharing.
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Thanks!
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It's not without errors though. It at first says current flows at the "A" points. Then it says after smoothing the surfaces the A points are reduced. Which would flow less if this were true.
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It's not without errors though. It at first says current flows at the "A" points. Then it says after smoothing the surfaces the A points are reduced. Which would flow less if this were true.
It isn't an error. It reduces the high points which increases the surface area. This means there is a greater area coming into contact.
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Yeah, you got me there. But I still see it as more A points, and less B points.
If the flow happens at the A points, smoothing the surface should increase the A points. Not decrease them. If I was a lawyer, it would win in court. ;D
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I never really understood how to use dialectric grease until now.
http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/images/polish.dielectric.png (http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/images/polish.dielectric.png)
From motoelectric http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/index.html (http://www.motolectric.com/install_guides/index.html)
My Ducati superbike has a starting problem so I bought Motoelectric's high capacity starter circuit upgrade kit.
My 08 Concours 14 has never had a starting problem and they don't make a kit for it anyway but thought the info was worth sharing.
A duc with an issue?? NO WAY!? ;D
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Yeah, you got me there. But I still see it as more A points, and less B points.
If the flow happens at the A points, smoothing the surface should increase the A points.
Well, you may have noticed the word "Polish" in the file name :rotflmao:
But it is correct. Maybe coulda been worded / explained a little better.
Solder is even better :thumbs: :D
Not decrease them. If I was a lawyer, it would win in court. ;D
You might be right :-\ :o >:(
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Yeah well that might depend on opposing counsel whether you would win or not.... :-)
But back to the 'why it works' thingy: I think both ideas are not quite right. Grease works to preserve electrical joints simply because it fills the space around and within the connection with a material that excludes Oxygen, not because of any properties of the actual grease. A vacuum would work as well but that it is hard to surround electrical connections with a vacuum while slopping grease on them (Easy Boys!) is easy.
As far as the 'A' points and 'B' points, that does not really matter because any type of acceptable mechanical connection to conduct electricity requires that the materials used deform anyway. So any valid type of mechanical connection (note that soldering is NOT a mechanical connection but physical based on chemistry) will always deform the wire or the wire and the mating (Boys!) parts: in household wiring, the screw head flattens the wire and it is that area that is deformed that is conducting. Same goes for spring loaded contacts. In any type of crimp connection, both the wire and the crimp housing itself are greatly deformed and those areas in direct contact from being deformed actually carry the current (the 'electrons') through the connection. Which is why softer materials are usually preferred in electrical connectors to harder materials- so they deform more easily. Grease simply surrounds the whole mess and keeps away the oxygen waiting, with baited breath, to mate with (Easy!) the base materials to form an oxide, which are terrible conductors and excellent insulators.
Or, as Homer would say: "Ummmmmmmmm grease!".
Brian
It isn't an error. It reduces the high points which increases the surface area. This means there is a greater area coming into contact.
Yeah, you got me there. But I still see it as more A points, and less B points.
If the flow happens at the A points, smoothing the surface should increase the A points. Not decrease them. If I was a lawyer, it would win in court. ;D
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Ok, all that said, then what makes a grease a "dielectric" grease? Will any old grease do?
Yeah well that might depend on opposing counsel whether you would win or not.... :-)
But back to the 'why it works' thingy: I think both ideas are not quite right. Grease works to preserve electrical joints simply because it fills the space around and within the connection with a material that excludes Oxygen, not because of any properties of the actual grease. A vacuum would work as well but that it is hard to surround electrical connections with a vacuum while slopping grease on them (Easy Boys!) is easy.
As far as the 'A' points and 'B' points, that does not really matter because any type of acceptable mechanical connection to conduct electricity requires that the materials used deform anyway. So any valid type of mechanical connection (note that soldering is NOT a mechanical connection but physical based on chemistry) will always deform the wire or the wire and the mating (Boys!) parts: in household wiring, the screw head flattens the wire and it is that area that is deformed that is conducting. Same goes for spring loaded contacts. In any type of crimp connection, both the wire and the crimp housing itself are greatly deformed and those areas in direct contact from being deformed actually carry the current (the 'electrons') through the connection. Which is why softer materials are usually preferred in electrical connectors to harder materials- so they deform more easily. Grease simply surrounds the whole mess and keeps away the oxygen waiting, with baited breath, to mate with (Easy!) the base materials to form an oxide, which are terrible conductors and excellent insulators.
Or, as Homer would say: "Ummmmmmmmm grease!".
Brian
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I put dielectric grease on my gas grill igniter wire connection, and it quit working. Now I have to use matches. That was easier for me than trying to figure it out or clean off the grease.
Guess I'm perplexed as to when to use dielectric grease. So I don't ever use it.
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Grease should never interfere with any electrical connection provided the grease is not too heavy and not too much of it is used. And even then the only real 'failure' would be that there is so much grease in the way that the junction cannot make contact with the other side. If grease 'causes' a connection failure, it is because the mechanical connection is not strong enough to push its way through the grease and make contact.
All of this assumes that the grease used is NOT conductive such as graphite based grease. All types and weights of grease are dielectric to start with but some contain additives that could render them conductive; anti- seize is an excellent example: the grease itself is not conductive but all the nickle in it that turns it gray and makes it thick most certainly IS conductive so that is a poor choice for electrical connections. Silicone based greases are usually used for dielectric grease because they will not thicken, congeal or cake up over time like petroleum grease will.
Brian
I put dielectric grease on my gas grill igniter wire connection, and it quit working. Now I have to use matches. That was easier for me than trying to figure it out or clean off the grease.
Guess I'm perplexed as to when to use dielectric grease. So I don't ever use it.
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Yes, as long as nothing has been added to the grease to make it conductive. All grease is non- conductive (a good dielectric) to begin with, as are all petroleum products (oil, gasoline, etc., etc.) but adding material like moly disulphide ('moly'), graphite or actual metals (like all anti- seize contains) will add a conductor to the grease and that should not be used. If in doubt, just buy true dielectric grease, which is almost always a silicone based grease and safe to use on about everything in the world (Easy Boys! I know what you are thinking!).
I personally tend to use brake grease because it smears so well and I can use a thin film. But I have also used axle grease as well as chassis grease (avoiding graphite types) for decades. When I was a kid, I used to hang around with an uncle (actually my mother's uncle- yep, he was old) who never would install a bulb in a car without first swiping it with grease. He used chassis grease right out of the nearest grease gun. I thought it was some kind of foolish ritual like throwing salt over ones' shoulder (I apologize in advance to all of those who throw salt over their shoulders ;D ) but as the years went by and I found bulb after bulb frozen in various cars sockets, usually taillights, I figured out that it really is a good idea. And now I never change a light bulb without a small amount of grease on the base and I have never had a seized lamp base on a vehicle. Although today most sockets and lamp bases are plastic but still- a little grease never hoit nothin'.
And for anyone who has ever had a fuze corrode in the socket on a vehicle, guess what the fix for that is? Yep, a dab of grease on the connections before installing the fuze will prevent that too. In fact, Kirby absolutely insists all Incontrol products use industrial grade, genuine 3M, 'you cannot buy this in any retail store' brand dielectric grease at the point of manufacture..... so for those who have removed the fuse on, say, a KiPass activation switch bypass and wondered "What is this wet, greasy looking stuff on the fuse legs?" well, it is grease. Kirby personally guarantees that no Incontrol product will ever have a fuse corrode and make a customer say some very bad words at the very moment he / she absolutely needs to remove that fuse to start the bike....
All of which brings us to the origins of the ancient saying 'If it resists, slap some grease on it and push harder!' (Extra Easy Boys!)
Brian
Ok, all that said, then what makes a grease a "dielectric" grease? Will any old grease do?
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Yeah, you got me there. But I still see it as more A points, and less B points.
If the flow happens at the A points, smoothing the surface should increase the A points. Not decrease them. If I was a lawyer, it would win in court. ;D
It is a bit of a wording issue but with the diagram I had no problem understanding what they meant to say.
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A duc with an issue?? NO WAY!? ;D
In just one year of ownership I have had quite a few "issues" with the 1098.
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This kit from motoelectric includes a 5gm tube of " SM7704 Dialelectric Silicone Grease" from Silchem ;D
Yes, as long as nothing has been added to the grease to make it conductive. All grease is non- conductive (a good dielectric) to begin with, as are all petroleum products (oil, gasoline, etc., etc.) but adding material like moly disulphide ('moly'), graphite or actual metals (like all anti- seize contains) will add a conductor to the grease and that should not be used. If in doubt, just buy true dielectric grease, which is almost always a silicone based grease and safe to use on about everything in the world (Easy Boys! I know what you are thinking!).
I personally tend to use brake grease because it smears so well and I can use a thin film. But I have also used axle grease as well as chassis grease (avoiding graphite types) for decades. When I was a kid, I used to hang around with an uncle (actually my mother's uncle- yep, he was old) who never would install a bulb in a car without first swiping it with grease. He used chassis grease right out of the nearest grease gun. I thought it was some kind of foolish ritual like throwing salt over ones' shoulder (I apologize in advance to all of those who throw salt over their shoulders ;D ) but as the years went by and I found bulb after bulb frozen in various cars sockets, usually taillights, I figured out that it really is a good idea. And now I never change a light bulb without a small amount of grease on the base and I have never had a seized lamp base on a vehicle. Although today most sockets and lamp bases are plastic but still- a little grease never hoit nothin'.
And for anyone who has ever had a fuze corrode in the socket on a vehicle, guess what the fix for that is? Yep, a dab of grease on the connections before installing the fuze will prevent that too. In fact, Kirby absolutely insists all Incontrol products use industrial grade, genuine 3M, 'you cannot buy this in any retail store' brand dielectric grease at the point of manufacture..... so for those who have removed the fuse on, say, a KiPass activation switch bypass and wondered "What is this wet, greasy looking stuff on the fuse legs?" well, it is grease. Kirby personally guarantees that no Incontrol product will ever have a fuse corrode and make a customer say some very bad words at the very moment he / she absolutely needs to remove that fuse to start the bike....
All of which brings us to the origins of the ancient saying 'If it resists, slap some grease on it and push harder!' (Extra Easy Boys!)
Brian
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http://youtu.be/-542IYGBbpg (http://youtu.be/-542IYGBbpg)
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That was informative, thanks Jim.
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WHOA, still learning something new everyday.
Who wouda thunk that was possible for a guy my age? ;D
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If I was a lawyer, it would win in court. ;D
:rotflmao:
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Grease should never interfere with any electrical connection provided the grease is not too heavy and not too much of it is used. And even then the only real 'failure' would be that there is so much grease in the way that the junction cannot make contact with the other side. If grease 'causes' a connection failure, it is because the mechanical connection is not strong enough to push its way through the grease and make contact.
All of this assumes that the grease used is NOT conductive such as graphite based grease. All types and weights of grease are dielectric to start with but some contain additives that could render them conductive; anti- seize is an excellent example: the grease itself is not conductive but all the nickle in it that turns it gray and makes it thick most certainly IS conductive so that is a poor choice for electrical connections. Silicone based greases are usually used for dielectric grease because they will not thicken, congeal or cake up over time like petroleum grease will.
Brian
Might wanna check that first sentence of the second paragraph.
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In doing some internet reading on this subject it's interesting to find two distinct and almost abusively vocal camps on the uses and disuses of dielectric vs conductive greases. caveat emptor
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First sentence, second paragraph: "All of this assumes that the grease used is NOT conductive such as graphite based grease."
I believe this sentence means exactly what I had intended: one must NOT use a conductive grease as a dielectric grease. In fact, the very word dielectric means non- conductive. Petroleum based greases (and all products that use petroleum as a base) are non- conductive, excellent insulators and are all dielectric as long as there are not any conductive additives, such as graphite (second form of carbon, which is conductive) is not added.
Just got back home, wanted to respond to this. If I am missing something, point it out more clearly Bruce 'cause I ain't seein' it. :-)
Brian
Might wanna check that first sentence of the second paragraph.
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Sorry Brian, for some strange reason I read it just bass-ackwards! Mea Culpa! I'll now step away from the keyboard.