Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: SVonhof on September 20, 2014, 07:44:23 PM
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Over a year ago I had a battery issue. I posted here and got a Battery Tender and brought the stock '09 battery back to life.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=12789.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=12789.0)
I am going on a 5 day, 1900+ mile ride (leaving Wednesday) and decided that I would rather replace the battery earlier than it maybe needed to be replaced. that way I could have the security of a new battery instead of dealing with it if it did fail on the trip (high temps are very possible).
I searched around and found somebody recommending this place: http://www.batterymart.com/p-ytx14-bs-agm-maintenance-free-battery.html (http://www.batterymart.com/p-ytx14-bs-agm-maintenance-free-battery.html)
For $50 shipped (I was fine with getting it a week later since it was going cross country), it's hard to beat the peace of mind that will bring to me. Got it today and it is installed and ready to go.
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damn 09 replaced early than it should ?? :o
mine lasted 1.5 years before it crapped out, one hard start was enough for me to pitch it.
on a tender when needed, plus and jr
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http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98137&highlight=Replaced+battery (http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98137&highlight=Replaced+battery)
Little read from another site.
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http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98137&highlight=Replaced+battery (http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98137&highlight=Replaced+battery)
Little read from another site.
Good info on filling the AGM batteries..
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60 000 miles on my OEM battery in my '08 bike. Still goes. I don't know what I'm doing right, but I'll keep on doing it ;D
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:thumbs:
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Mine crapped out on me about an hour into a 4 hour trip. A tow truck brought us home. I ordered a Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery (http://Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery) on the way home. I hopped in my car and continued my trip. By the time I returned home. The new battery was waiting for me.
Initially, I though the box was empty but it was due to the battery weighing less than 2 lbs. Its working great so far (about 3 weeks of use).
8)
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Good info on filling the AGM batteries..
AGM batteries are sealed. You cannot add or install or fill acid into an AGM.
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60 000 miles on my OEM battery in my '08 bike. Still goes. I don't know what I'm doing right, but I'll keep on doing it ;D
As far as I know my 08 has the original too, i only plug it in during the winter months.
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As far as I know my 08 has the original too, i only plug it in during the winter months.
yeap, that's my "method" too. I park the bike for good at the end of November, and a few days later I fly home for several weeks, so when I land in Germany in the middle of January I take the battery out of the bike and plug it for a day or two on the tender. Then I unplug it and leave it somewhere (vented) in my apartment. At the end of February I plug it again on the tender for a couple of days, and for the 1st of March, when the season starts, I'm good to go. I never had to press the start button more than half a second.
But I have to admit that it's getting more and more tempting to order a new one every time I'm about to go on a tour :-\
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AGM batteries are sealed. You cannot add or install or fill acid into an AGM.
Chalk this up as lessons learned, I did..
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM)
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) Technology is an advanced battery design that eliminates water loss. Once it's filled with acid, you'll never need to fill it with water or check the acid level.
Long Life
Because of its lead calcium design, the AGM battery will hold its specific gravity more than three times longer than conventional lead antimony types. This means much longer periods between charges when the battery is used in a standby mode, like winter storage.
And to remain factory-fresh the AGM battery is shipped dry along with its own pack of high-gravity acid that's added at the time of installation.
Non-spillable
Once filled with acid from its special packs, the AGM battery is virtually maintenance free. All of the acid is absorbed in the special plates and separators, so there is no need to worry about acid leaks on the valuable vehicle parts and accessories.
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200 CCA - http://www.batterymart.com/p-ytx14-bs-agm-maintenance-free-battery.html (http://www.batterymart.com/p-ytx14-bs-agm-maintenance-free-battery.html)
220 CCA - http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX14-Battery.html?Category_Code=kawasaki-zg1400-concours-battery (http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX14-Battery.html?Category_Code=kawasaki-zg1400-concours-battery)
260 CCA - http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/YTX14H-BS.html (http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/YTX14H-BS.html)
All AGM
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This is not a 'real' AGM battery. That is an improved wet (or flooded) cell battery that happens to have glass mats between the plates.
The key thing about AGM batteries is that they have <almost> no liquid electrolyte inside them. This is because the mats are soaked with acid but then squeezed <nearly> dry before the battery is assembled. This low electrolyte prevents spillage even if the battery case is broken open because the mat cannot give up any fluid. In fact, there are many advantages: an AGM battery is almost impossible to overcharge or charge too quickly. They cannot expand from freezing, again because there is just not enough liquid in the battery to cause any appreciable expansion. They will not out- gas because they will not overcharge or charge too quickly.
The 'pretend' AGM batteries have all the faults / flaws inherent to regular flooded cell batteries and can and will vent if broken, overcharged or charged too rapidly. They are not really sealed, they merely have internal (Easy Boys!) chambers to absorb and condense the acid vapor.
Remember, even though both the box it came in and the salesman said it was a "real woman", the fact that you have to blow it up shows this to be false. Real women come already blown up and don't even have a valve. (yeah, MANY jokes in there but I am taking the high road on this one). Real AGM technology batteries don't come with a bottle of acid and cannot be assembled by the buyer.
Brian
Chalk this up as lessons learned, I did..
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM)
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) Technology is an advanced battery design that eliminates water loss. Once it's filled with acid, you'll never need to fill it with water or check the acid level.
Long Life
Because of its lead calcium design, the AGM battery will hold its specific gravity more than three times longer than conventional lead antimony types. This means much longer periods between charges when the battery is used in a standby mode, like winter storage.
And to remain factory-fresh the AGM battery is shipped dry along with its own pack of high-gravity acid that's added at the time of installation.
Non-spillable
Once filled with acid from its special packs, the AGM battery is virtually maintenance free. All of the acid is absorbed in the special plates and separators, so there is no need to worry about acid leaks on the valuable vehicle parts and accessories.
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This is not a 'real' AGM battery. That is an improved wet (or flooded) cell battery that happens to have glass mats between the plates.
So you're saying that wet, gel, and AGM are not all versions of a lead acid battery? Or that different manufacturers
are using the term AGM differently? From what I know, a battery can either be factory-filled, or BS
(Bottle Supplied), but BOTH are considered maintenance-free once the acid is installed.
The given reason for the bottle supplied units is for indefinite storage of the new, unused (air tight sealed cell) batteries,
whereas the factory filled batteries will lose their charge while warehoused for a duration.
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No, that is not what I said. And it is not correct- flooded cell, gel cell, AGM and 'fakey' AGM batteries all use the same chemistry, lead- acid.
What I said was that any "AGM" battery that comes with separate acid that the user installs is not the same technology as a true AGM battery. It is nothing but a flooded cell battery with glass mat between the plates. AGM batteries behave the way they do not because of the mat, but because the mat allows the use of so little acid.
By the way, one of the big benifits to AGM batteries is that they do not self- discharge nearly as fast as flooded cell batteries and have extremely long shelf- lives. And again, because of the construction mechanism, not the chemistry type.
Again, I am merely pointing out the difference so that anyone can see what is going on here. By all means, purchase and use whichever one(s) you want. My only goal was to shine a little illumination onto what the differences in the battery types (again, not the chemistry but rather the construction and resulting behavior).
Brian
So you're saying that wet, gel, and AGM are not all versions of a lead acid battery? Or that different manufacturers
are using the term AGM differently? From what I know, a battery can either be factory-filled, or BS
(Bottle Supplied), but BOTH are considered maintenance-free once the acid is installed.
The given reason for the bottle supplied units is for indefinite storage of the new, unused (air tight sealed cell) batteries,
whereas the factory filled batteries will lose their charge while warehoused for a duration.
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What I know is from reading what was offered by a few different sites, mainly manufacturers or major suppliers.
Which is why I questioned your response, but I don't know the detailed manufacturing or material differences
used in the process. I'm still getting schooled in the battery dept. As I had thought AGM were all factory sealed, until
I read the Yuasa Battery sites info on the subject.
http://www.yuasabatteries.com/batteries.php#anchormf (http://www.yuasabatteries.com/batteries.php#anchormf)
Not finding in descriptions if AGM is a bath or cell builds, checked some, NOT all manufacturers!
As for me, my research of batteries concluded last month with a purchase of a Big Crank, AGM, maintenance-free.
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So, I replaced the battery on my '08 a few weeks ago. I'd neglected it, then had an opportunity to go on a ride. It wouldn't crank, so I tried to hook the car charger to it (big mistake). Wouldn't charge up, so I cancelled my ride and decided to let it sit overnight on the tender. Next morning- still showing 10.2 volts. Crap. Bought a new battery at the local dealer, installed and she cranks up strong. Next weekend went for a ride and noticed my heated jacket wasn't heating. Crap again. Got home, tested voltage at the tender leads- 0V. Hmm.....there's a fuse there, 7.5 Dig around the workbench, find a fuse, voila! 14.1 volts now, liner starts to heat. So, most likely my old battery would have been fine if I'd thought to check that little fuse. Oh well, with weather getting chilly here it's a good reminder for me to not get lazy and to keep the tender hooked up. That was the original battery, which normally was on a tender religiously. New one will likewise be taken better care of. If you don't let them drain waay down they last quite a while.
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My Shorai was installed in my 2012 Ninja 1000 right when I bought the bike due to a "gift certificate issue" at At Rocky Mountain ATV.
Its been awesome, and continues to be so. I wont buy another "Normal" battery if I can help it.
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When the time comes to replace the battery on my 2012, I thought I would go to a Shorai simply because I have used them before with excellent results in other bikes but now I see that Battery Tender also sells a lithium iron battery(similiar technology to the Shorai and it weighs about 1/2 the weight of the Shorai. Has anyone else tried the Shorai and has anyone tried the battery tender battery. Curious minds want to know.
Fork
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Theres more than just size and weight to batteries tho... Whats the amp rating? I know most of us have a lot of extra stuff hooked up, and especially heated gear, and lights can draw a bit. I understand most of this is powered by the alternater, but the battery is just as important.
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My shorai has been awesome. From what it sounds like, they dont like to be discharged completly, and I've been lucky not to do that.
I accidentally left my bike in the "park" position for 10 hours. Bright light so I did not notice the taillight was on. The bike fired right up.
The battery is strange under 40 degrees. You have to try and crank the bike 3-4 times to heat up the battery. I dont think we'll see them oem until this issue is solved. Its not big deal, but in the cold you'd swear the battery is dead right at first.
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Theres more than just size and weight to batteries tho... Whats the amp rating? I know most of us have a lot of extra stuff hooked up, and especially heated gear, and lights can draw a bit. I understand most of this is powered by the alternater, but the battery is just as important.
Actually, excess battery is not that important in such cases. The key to number of accessories is that your overall power use (watt-hours) generally needs to be below what the alternator provides. Otherwise, it will have to pull from the battery (and so it is not charging). If that happens, the battery will slowly discharge without recovery until there is not enough left to start the bike the next time. You might also run into issues with the voltage regulation system not being able to keep the voltage stable when you get near alternator capacity.
Excess capacity (over stock) CAN be useful if you are TEMPORARILY pulling more than the alternator can provide. But it is also very useful to help make up for wear in the battery over time or lower capacity due to low temperatures and finally to compensate for sitting long periods and self-discharging (or dealing with slow vampire draw, like the computer).
An even more important example for excess being starting the bike, which will pull a LOT of power. If you were making lots of short trips (and perhaps also using over a certain amount in accessories), the excess can help make sure you can start the bike again, since it didn't have time to charge back up from the alternator while riding.
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My shorai has been awesome. From what it sounds like, they dont like to be discharged completly, and I've been lucky not to do that.
Lithium batters are just like those used in your cell phone or laptop or other portable electronics. Running them down to a very low state will greatly shorten their life. Of course, that is also true for lead-acid batteries. They also charge strangely- it is quick to charge them to about 80%, and the rest of the charge is much slower. Plus lithium batteries will wear better when kept between 20% to 80% or so, but that is usually not practical (on the higher end). Those percents might not be exactly correct, I am working on memory right now, and mine is never all that great :)
The battery is strange under 40 degrees. You have to try and crank the bike 3-4 times to heat up the battery. I dont think we'll see them oem until this issue is solved. Its not big deal, but in the cold you'd swear the battery is dead right at first.
Lithium batteries fare much worse in cold temps than lead-acid. And they also have wear issues when kept hot or charged hot. Lithium is amazing in many ways, but also has a lot of complex "issues". Some of those issues are mitigated by complex electronic charging and monitoring circuitry, but they can only do so much.
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Then last battery I bought was for my 94 Vmax. It was my 2nd Odyssey and it lasted 8 years! I sold the bike with the 2 year old one in this spring. It was the PC-680 series by the way. Was not cheap but you could literally put it sideways or however you needed to in the bike and it would be fine. AGM is pretty cool. I will have to also check out this LI battery you guys have been talking about for the future.
Jim
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No, that is not what I said. And it is not correct- flooded cell, gel cell, AGM and 'fakey' AGM batteries all use the same chemistry, lead- acid.
What I said was that any "AGM" battery that comes with separate acid that the user installs is not the same technology as a true AGM battery. It is nothing but a flooded cell battery with glass mat between the plates. AGM batteries behave the way they do not because of the mat, but because the mat allows the use of so little acid.
By the way, one of the big benifits to AGM batteries is that they do not self- discharge nearly as fast as flooded cell batteries and have extremely long shelf- lives. And again, because of the construction mechanism, not the chemistry type.
Again, I am merely pointing out the difference so that anyone can see what is going on here. By all means, purchase and use whichever one(s) you want. My only goal was to shine a little illumination onto what the differences in the battery types (again, not the chemistry but rather the construction and resulting behavior).
Brian
Mehhhhh,
You are splitting hairs with the "flakey fake AGM" line....
It is truly an AGM battery just the same as a factory activated and sealed batt... only difference is that it can sit unactivated indefinatly within reason, on a shelf... period. The internal construction is no different than a presealed unit. I have cut one (sealed AGM Batt) open to verify this before, and the guts are the same.
I just purchased and activated an Exide AGM yesterday, and I could clearly see the guts thru the filler holes. After the fill, and bench sit time, there was no liquids visible whatsoever, even tilting and shaking the batt, prior to installing the permenant caps before doing the charge cycle....
Well report on longevity when it wears out....I'll say the Scorpion sealed AGM unit I just replaced lasted only 2years, and my fault for not keeping the tender on it last arctic winter.....
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/IMG_20141019_160507_3621_zpsa054e9f1.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/IMG_20141019_160507_3621_zpsa054e9f1.jpg.html)
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/IMG_20141019_160500_0491_zps4dee4038.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/IMG_20141019_160500_0491_zps4dee4038.jpg.html)
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Well then we will just have to disagree. AGM batteries get their unique performance machanism from the fact that there is so little electrolyte in the mats. The only way that amount of saturation can be acheived is by squeezing the mats out under great pressure, after they are saturated, and before the battery is assembled. That small amount of electrolyte cannot be added to the mats in the first place because it will not travel through the mats and leave an even amount of electrolyte.
Steel with enough carbon can be heat treated and then tempered to have unique properties. A bar of iron and a package of fire in the same box does not make tempered, alloy steel no matter how much the supplier says that it does.
Brian
Mehhhhh,
You are splitting hairs with the "flakey fake AGM" line....
It is truly an AGM battery just the same as a factory activated and sealed batt... only difference is that it can sit unactivated indefinatly within reason, on a shelf... period.
<snip>
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Well then we will just have to disagree. AGM batteries get their unique performance machanism from the fact that there is so little electrolyte in the mats. The only way that amount of saturation can be acheived is by squeezing the mats out under great pressure, after they are saturated, and before the battery is assembled. That small amount of electrolyte cannot be added to the mats in the first place because it will not travel through the mats and leave an even amount of electrolyte. Steel with enough carbon can be heat treated and then tempered to have unique properties. A bar of iron and a package of fire in the same box does not make tempered, alloy steel no matter how much the supplier says that it does.
Brian
Well, if you say so...
I guess this video of one of what we all consider the Top of the Line AGM on the market is full of it also...
sorry man. I don't get the squeezing out thing you are soo insistant about, it isn't feasable to compress the mats more than %5 if they were pressed wet... but then again, these guys fill the battery with electrolyte right before they seal and charge them... just like the battery I juiced up yesterday.
http://youtu.be/3P-wqckJ2nM (http://youtu.be/3P-wqckJ2nM)
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'... Battery Tender also sells a lithium iron battery(similiar technology to the Shorai and it weighs about 1/2 the weight of the Shorai. Has anyone else tried the Shorai and has anyone tried the battery tender battery. Curious minds want to know.
....'
I've been using the battery tender lithium iron battery (Amazon ~$112) for several weeks now with no issues. It weighs less than 2 lbs. Includes foam strips to use as spacers since it is so small. Has 2 + terminals and 2 - terminals which makes it easier to add accessories if you don't want to add a fuse block.
My only concerns was the reserve capacity....but from the posts above, the accessories will run off the alternator unless I do something silly like leave them on (this is negated since I've used a relay on everything so far...). The Battery Tender battery is sold as a starter battery.
So far...no issues.
8)
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I was looking at that battery tender battery myself. What size did you use amphibsailor? I'm seeing some for $90 shipped on Amazon. I like the idea of an extra set of terminals to put my accessories on and a little more room in the box for the wiring that is now crammed in there
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I like the idea of an extra set of terminals to put my accessories on and a little more room in the box for the wiring that is now crammed in there
It really is a snug fit. Plus, I am one of those guilty of having NOT installed a proper terminal block/power distribution system. So I have about 4 cables going to the positive terminal and to the frame ground. Certainly makes getting the connections good and wire routing proper a bit frustrating. I figure if I add anything else of importance to the bike, I might give in and do it "right".... some day.... maybe....
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I was looking at that battery tender battery myself. What size did you use amphibsailor? I'm seeing some for $90 shipped on Amazon. I like the idea of an extra set of terminals to put my accessories on and a little more room in the box for the wiring that is now crammed in there
I bought the BTL14A240C. Its about $97 on Amazon, now. Lots of extra room in the battery box, when using that battery.
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...I figure if I add anything else of importance to the bike, I might give in and do it "right".... some day.... maybe....
I'm working on my own version of a fuse block. Nothing fancy, but it will have primary power delivered thru a relay. Intend on turning the relay on/off with the switched accessory leads located in the fairing. Using a terminal block with six fused outputs. The terminal block will be placed in a plastic project box to help weatherize it. Leads going into/out of the box will be through snug grommets. I don't intend on spending too much money for the project. :D
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Thanks for the info on batt. You ordered. I could use the room in there. With aux lights , fuse block on the terminals it's definitely tight. Extra room and dedicated terminals for the accessories would be a welcome addition. My batt. 3 years now and going fine but I usually replace before they show signs of going south on me