Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Kidfastball on September 18, 2014, 10:16:41 AM
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I just hit 15K miles after the state rally last weekend. Time for the valve check. So, I'm thinking about taking this opportunity to also do the dyno tuning and hopefully get some moderate HP increases. Other than a few generic Farkles, I have the V&H slip-on. I'm considering going to the 44mm ZX-14 TB. I've been searching the forum the last couple days and I've only seen a few references to the TB.
Anyone in the Dallas area take their Concours somewhere? I'm looking for someone with experience on the Concours to really set her up right.
Thanks.
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I do hope you do a before and after dyno regarding larger throttle bodies. I cannot confirm this ( this is why we both you need the dyno charts) but you may find a drop in your low and mid range power but a slight increase at the high RPM.
To me this would be very disappointing and why I have not done this mod yet.
Let us know please.
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I am curious about this. I wouldn't think increasing the TB size would be that effective if you don't also replace the exhaust system. Would it? Generally it is a game of moving things to your next restriction- exhaust, intake. I doubt just replacing the muffler will do all that much to "cure" the exhaust system (it is like hooking up a larger garden hose on the end of a smaller hose).
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Your idea is good but I don't think it really applies here. I do not believe a C-14 exhaust is very restrictive for a couple of reasons- one is the small power gains seen when going to an aftermarket system and the second is that those who actually use ZX exhaust systems on the C-14 have not seen large power gains either.
Even changing the T.B.'s yields a pretty modest increase in power IMO. The real limit with the C-14 is literally in the engine: the timing, the compression, the max. RPM, etc. As the engine is very close to a ZX in stock form, the reason for the very appreciable reduction in power is the engine's internals (Easy Boys!) coupled with the different tuning of the ECU.
The C-14 has more low end grunt than a ZX and a much broader power band, both of which are more desirable for most people riding a sport tourer, especially loaded and 2-up. The ZX is a much more ultimate power producing machine. The VVT on the C-14 goes a ways in having some of both but it is just not possible to have a quiet, mild- mannered, tractable, fuel- economical, long- lived engine that also produces a great deal of power for its displacement. Unless of course the engine is not normally aspirated and uses some form of supercharger but even that is not without its downsides and costs.
Brian
I am curious about this. I wouldn't think increasing the TB size would be that effective if you don't also replace the exhaust system. Would it? Generally it is a game of moving things to your next restriction- exhaust, intake. I doubt just replacing the muffler will do all that much to "cure" the exhaust system (it is like hooking up a larger garden hose on the end of a smaller hose).
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I believe the stock exhaust has to be restrictive and the dyno sheets show the gains made when changing to a full AreaP system and of course a new fuel map which is mandatory because of the uncorked engine. When sawing open the cats and looking at them they sure LOOK restrictive. Mine went from 133hp to 161.3hp and big gains in torque. I had a ZX14 with stock exhaust it does not pull hard to red line like my C14 does but of course the ZX is a whole lot lighter and much faster. I think the issue on the ZX14 and the C14 is the cats in the stock exhausts.
I love the sound of my full AreaP and it is nice and quiet cruising around up until I hit the throttle hard- then it gets loud-- real loud!! I got 52mpg on my trip out to Idaho Falls and back with my C14.
8) :chugbeer: :finger_fing11: :banana.
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I don't have an aftermarket exhaust but I think that stock exhaust is restrictive. The exhaust on my katana 1100 has bigger down pipes.
Heck, the C14 header pipes are the same size as the ones on my old gs550!
The gains on the area p look fantastic. Forget the peak gain; the whole curve is bigger- that has to get your attention.
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Modest? 161.5 at the wheel is beyond mild. AT my point in the build my restriction was air in. No loss on the bottom and plenty in the mid to upper. It's still a 1352 cc motor, the VVT works in it's favor for the lower end torque. Sadly we had a guy who was looking at the beyond TBs and exhaust upgrade, but he got cold feet before we could push him over the edge ;) A roughly %20 increase is hardly modest, at least in my opinion..
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Modest? 161.5 at the wheel is beyond mild. AT my point in the build my restriction was air in. No loss on the bottom and plenty in the mid to upper. It's still a 1352 cc motor, the VVT works in it's favor for the lower end torque. Sadly we had a guy who was looking at the beyond TBs and exhaust upgrade, but he got cold feet before we could push him over the edge ;) A roughly %20 increase is hardly modest, at least in my opinion..
You must mean Richard Cranium. If you want to invite back for round two google jd3.
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Funny you mention that- there was actually a test done on that (only one test but still....). A guy was really worried about those cats and went to great lengths to knock them out (with a drift and hammer). The great news is that he had the bike dyno'd before and after so we know the results: he gained one (1) Hp. Maybe. I say maybe because that number is well w/in the envelope of variables between tests so it could have been a couple of Hp or none at all. The Catalytic converter takes up almost no room in the exhaust and presents virtually no restriction.
Brian
I believe the stock exhaust has to be restrictive and the dyno sheets show the gains made when changing to a full AreaP system and of course a new fuel map which is mandatory because of the uncorked engine. When sawing open the cats and looking at them they sure LOOK restrictive. Mine went from 133hp to 161.3hp and big gains in torque. I had a ZX14 with stock exhaust it does not pull hard to red line like my C14 does but of course the ZX is a whole lot lighter and much faster. I think the issue on the ZX14 and the C14 is the cats in the stock exhausts.
I love the sound of my full AreaP and it is nice and quiet cruising around up until I hit the throttle hard- then it gets loud-- real loud!! I got 52mpg on my trip out to Idaho Falls and back with my C14.
8) :chugbeer: :finger_fing11: :banana.
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Yup, it can be depending on a person's point of view. Mine is probably a bit different from most other people's in that having a C-14 and wanting it to be faster by any appreciable amount (I mean beyond merely removing the 'flies and tuning it correctly), I would either swap it for a ZX, which is a LOT faster than a C-14 and incredibly easy to get (no labor at all, and they cost less than a C-14), or I would try to make more power than anything available on the dealer's floor stock; the only <reasonable> way I know to do that would be making the engine displace more and raising the compression ration (read: supercharge it).
I usually compare 'fast' and 'quick' with the entire available envelope. This is probably backwards from most people but I would rather buy a ZX 14 and mod. it to make it more comfortable for touring than take a C-14 and mod. it to make it faster. The ZX starts off (no pun intended) at a performance point almost impossible to reach with a C-14 in any reasonable, normally aspirated way.
I was / am not criticizing anyone elses mods. or ideas, just pointing out my own perception. As far as modding an already highly tuned engine, which the C-14 is, that is indeed a very significant increase, especially considering there was nothing done internally to the engine.
I really do not think of myself as ever actually having 'had' that guy. And any sadness I associate with him is gone, as it the actual entity itself. ;) :rotflmao:
Brian
Modest? 161.5 at the wheel is beyond mild. AT my point in the build my restriction was air in. No loss on the bottom and plenty in the mid to upper. It's still a 1352 cc motor, the VVT works in it's favor for the lower end torque. Sadly we had a guy who was looking at the beyond TBs and exhaust upgrade, but he got cold feet before we could push him over the edge ;) A roughly %20 increase is hardly modest, at least in my opinion..
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I have to agree with Brian on this, if your looking for ZX14r speed/power it might in the end be easier and cheaper to witch to a zx and add sport touring items to it.
The cats of today are nto restrictive as they were years ago, the onyl real issue with them is the heat they produce. I have a 2013 and looking at its header the tubes are definetly smaller than what i would have expected, if i was going to push some extra power out i would be looking at a full exhaust swap. Gas engines are just big compressors, if you make room to take more in you need room to put more out.
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Wow, quite the thread in one day! That's a lot to digest, but what I'm hearing is a throttle body change likely won't produce what I'm expecting.
That said, all I'm really wanting is another 10-15hp over stock. Most of the folks that see that go from 130hp to 160'ish seem to have the full exhaust. I just can't swing that kind of $$. I think I will give the new ECM mapping a try, and stay with the stock TB.
The main reason I was considering it, is I have a friend on a ZX14 that went to a 48mm TB and was going to give me his stock unit. I like to tell him we have the same motor, the only difference is I have saddlebags. But he's putting 207hp to the wheel.
I found Sabin Performance Cycle in Dallas. Has anyone worked with them?
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Well i can asy if i were to get the TB's for free i would give it a try, but wouldnt expect the world. I might wait till had the $$ then buy the exhaust and change it and the TB's then dyno.
But thats me....i like to do the job once.
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I saw some one try and knock out the cats with a drift and a hammer. They would not come out of the header. No wonder he made one more HP. I am surprised it did not make a lot less HP. He should have sawed off the end the header and installed a test pipe and a slip on . That would have far far easier.
The ZX14 stock is just too scary fast for me but I just happen to still have a C14 so i made it faster
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Yup, it can be depending on a person's point of view. Mine is probably a bit different from most other people's in that having a C-14 and wanting it to be faster by any appreciable amount (I mean beyond merely removing the 'flies and tuning it correctly), I would either swap it for a ZX, which is a LOT faster than a C-14 and incredibly easy to get (no labor at all, and they cost less than a C-14), or I would try to make more power than anything available on the dealer's floor stock; the only <reasonable> way I know to do that would be making the engine displace more and raising the compression ration (read: supercharge it).
I usually compare 'fast' and 'quick' with the entire available envelope. This is probably backwards from most people but I would rather buy a ZX 14 and mod. it to make it more comfortable for touring than take a C-14 and mod. it to make it faster. The ZX starts off (no pun intended) at a performance point almost impossible to reach with a C-14 in any reasonable, normally aspirated way.
These is exactly my thoughts. You can try all you want and you will not get a C14 near the speed/performance of the ZX. And you can try all you want and not get the ZX near the comfort/reliability/convenience of the C14. But you can do things on either/both to bring them closer together.
Start with which is more important to you- speed/performance or comfort/reliability/convenience and then mod in the appropriate direction as needed. Both excel at what they were primarily designed to do.
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Nope, the person who did it (was years ago but I think it might have been Flying Kaw??) got the cats completely out. He was relentless and took excellent before / after photos. The cats were really gone and the pipe clean.
The problem is that foil cats do not restrict much airflow at all. They have almost no cross- sectional area. We look at them and see a pretty dense block of 'stuff' in the pipe and think it is hurting flow but looked at straight- on, which is how the gas flows through them, they are really barely there.
Brian
I saw some one try and knock out the cats with a drift and a hammer. They would not come out of the header. No wonder he made one more HP. I am surprised it did not make a lot less HP. He should have sawed off the end the header and installed a test pipe and a slip on . That would have far far easier.
The ZX14 stock is just too scary fast for me but I just happen to still have a C14 so i made it faster
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...... what I'm hearing is a throttle body change likely won't produce what I'm expecting.
.....The main reason I was considering it, is I have a friend on a ZX14 that went to a 48mm TB and was going to give me his stock unit. I like to tell him we have the same motor, the only difference is I have saddlebags. But he's putting 207hp to the wheel.
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this is where people err, they ain't the same engine...
The Ninja has a 5mm longer stroke, 130cc's more displacement (per 2015 spec. on kaw site), and 20% higher compression ratio....
yah, it can use what the larger t/b's feed the engine, the "puny" C14 engine simply can't digest the fuel like the sport bike..
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Sounds like you need the ZX 14 pistons.
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...the 2006-2011 engine IS the same size...he didn't say what year ZX14...
How many of you have TWO C14s? I do. One with the Two Bros. slip on and Power Commander and K&N filter, but otherwise stock. No dyno runs. Slightly more sprightly than stock. I have ridden a shiny low mile stocker back to back with this one.
The other one is Silverdammit!, formerly in the garage of SOP. The 161.5HP screamer. Yes, it is no ZX14...but it is a bunch quicker than the other one. Full Area P exhaust, ZX14 (the 1352 of course) TBs, Power Commander w/auto tune, K&N filter...it loses nothing off idle, gains a bit in the middle, and really starts to jump around 5500rpm...according to the winding mountain road proving ground I ride every day I am down the hill from home.
So you can say what you want about the ZX14 TB having less midrange...but it doesn't.
Or about the power gain being modest...but it isn't.
And I rarely get it up over 8000rpm, where the difference is really noticeable.
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this is where people err, they ain't the same engine...
The Ninja has a 5mm longer stroke, 130cc's more displacement (per 2015 spec. on kaw site), and 20% higher compression ratio....
As datasax said- it depends on the year... the 2006-2011 did not have more displacement.
Plus the C14 has variable valve timing.
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In the interest of actually learning something rather than accepting the internet gossip, I've modified a 2005 zx12 header onto my c-14. I did this for several reasons, but basically to use the same diameter pipes w/o cats to actually see if there will be a difference as compared to the stock header with cats. the header is on and fits perfectly, I've just picked up an autotune for the PC so I need to get that installed, tune, and then go to the dyno.
That said, I fully disagree that the gains made by just doing aftermarket headers and exhaust is modest. When comparing power in terms of percentage gain, I really think the c-14 responds much more than many other bikes to exhaust work. again, I do suspect the cats, but I could be wrong, so only data will solve the problem.
BTW, the zx12 made 160+ HP in stock form at 10k. When the rest of the exhaust system is disected it's really obstructed and odd - cyl pairs are kept separated until the muffler, which had a cat in it. I did away with all that and the header comes to a 2" collector then out a 2 bros midpipe / muffler.
I've also dialed in the cam lc's and actually retarded the exhaust 5 degrees for a bit more overlap which will equate to more top end. I have zx14 cams and considered installing the exhaust, but I figured I needed to see what moving the stocker would do first. Really, there's nothing to be done with the intake cam, just sit back and let the vvt do it's thing. One interesting thing about the exhaust timing retard is that it quiets the exhaust tone, which I like. Steve
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I've also dialed in the cam lc's and actually retarded the exhaust 5 degrees for a bit more overlap which will equate to more top end. I have zx14 cams and considered installing the exhaust, but I figured I needed to see what moving the stocker would do first. .......... One interesting thing about the exhaust timing retard is that it quiets the exhaust tone, which I like. Steve
Was this done by rotating the gear on the exhaust cam like to mentioned to me at the Nationals this past June. I can't remember the full details, but it would be nice if when you get all of your testing done if you'd do a seperate wright-up (How To) just on the cam change and how the change affects the power curve, as this is something that I think I'd like to do.
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Was this done by rotating the gear on the exhaust cam like to mentioned to me at the Nationals this past June. I can't remember the full details, but it would be nice if when you get all of your testing done if you'd do a seperate wright-up (How To) just on the cam change and how the change affects the power curve, as this is something that I think I'd like to do.
Yes, that was me. It will really be impossible to quantify that as a sole mod, since the exhaust was done at the same time.
I have sold hundreds of advanced exhaust cam sprockets for the c-10, and guys love them because it's a definite boost in low rpm for not much money. By retarding the exhaust on the c-14, I was just looking to bias a bit more toward the top end. My rationale is that the once the flies are pulled (it's an 09) the bottom end torque ought to be all I need, so why not bump the top a bit. At this point, til we see dyno numbers, it's all just academic.
One note on dyno tuning - my c-10 has had dozens of dyno runs. You must understand that unless you can do runs back to back, on the same day on the same dyno, then you are really looking for averages in improvement. All dyno's are a bit different, weather affects the results (even though there's provisions to take that into account) and how the bike is set upon the dyno, tire pressure, oil viscosity, all effect the results. a couple hp here or there becomes almost inconsequential; and then you always must consider not just peak HP, but all that is developed under the curve.
BTW, here's some c-14 cam timing info to help the tuners....
ZG1400 cams
INTAKE @ 050" valve lift, .006" clearance
OP - 10*atdc
Clo - 50*abdc
LC - 120* Static; I expect it advances to 100"LC
LIFT- .320"
DUR - 220* @ .050"
EXHAUST @ .050" valve lift, .008" clearance
OP 29* bbdc
Clo - 1* btdc
LC - 105*
LIFT - .300"
DUR - 208* @ .050"
EX w / 5* retard timing
OP-24*bbdc
Clo - 4* atdc
ZX1400 EXHAUST CAM (2007 model)
OP - 36*bbdc
CLO - 10* atdc
LIFT - .330"
LC - 103
DUR - .226* @ .050"
As you can see, the zx cam has 18* more duration, but it keeps the low LC to try to help low rpm power in the zx14 application. Keep in mind the zx intake cam is also long and has no VVT, so there's much more overlap for top end with the zx cams. If you'll notice, the c-14 cam shows no overlap, even with the EX cam retard, though I'm sure there's effective overlap flow going on at much smaller valve opening than the measured .050". This would be at very low rpm and idle, with a 100* LC on the VVT advanced intake and 5" retarded exhaust, the overlap would be 14* @ .050" lift, whereas in stock form it would be 9* @ .050"
HTH, steve
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So if someone used the zx14 exhaust cam and retarded it 5*
ZX1400 EXHAUST CAM (2007 model)
OP - 36*bbdc
CLO - 10* atdc
ZX1400 w / 5* retard timing
OP- 31*bbdc
Clo - 5* atdc
correct?
Also, IIRC, you said that the C14 exhaust cam gear already has the hole drilled in it to do this. Is that correct or did I mis-remember?
Thanks for the info and apoligies to the op for the mis-direction!!!!
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no, it would close at 15* atdc,
5* atdc would be a 5* advance.
remember that more overlap will vent some low rpm cylinder pressure, but will pull the intake charge better at high rpm. that's why the vvt advances as rpm increases.
and yes, i used the other set of holes in the sprocket, intended tor the zx intake cam. steve