Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: lather on June 16, 2011, 09:07:59 AM
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I am trying Redline Water Wetter in both my VFR and my C14 this summer. For the VFR to improve its poor low speed cooling characteristics. For the C14 to decrease the amount of heat coming through the seat and tank. Redline claimes up to 20 degreef reduction. I can't really tell any definite difference going by the C14 bar guage. For one thing I never paid a lot of attention to the guage as the C14 has always seemed to cool well as apposed to the VFR. Also, I don't have any faith that the BAR guage system is very price or accurate. On the other hand the VFR has a numerical gauge and I definetely see a difference of 5 to 7 degrees lower temperature according to the gauge.
As for seat of the pants (literally), subjective result the C14 seems a little bit cooler in the crotch area. The heat coming from the cowl vents does not feel less, if anything more. To me this makes sense since the only way to make the engine run cooler is to extract heat via the radiator and that heat goes out the cowl vents. This is fine with me as that heat does not bother me.
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i used it on my built civic and it seemed to do the job very well.
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I don't get how this stuff can work. The C14 creates X amount of BTUs in heat right? This stuff claims that it can reduce that heat, where does the heat go?
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I don't get how this stuff can work. The C14 creates X amount of BTUs in heat right? This stuff claims that it can reduce that heat, where does the heat go?
Per the Red Line site:
"* Reduces or eliminates bubbles or vapor barrier that form on hot metal surfaces to reduce coolant temperatures by up to 20°
* Superior heat transfer properties compared to glycol-based antifreeze
* Compatible with new or used antifreeze (including DEX-COOL and long-life versions) to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems
* Improves heat transfer and reduces cylinder head temperature "
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Step 1 Drain coolant
Step 2 Fill with straight distilled water
Step3 Enjoy A cooler running engine
Straight water cools much better than a 50/50 Water Glycol mix. As long as the temps stay above freezing this would be your best bet to make the engine run cooler. Or else use a 70/30 Water Glycol Mix. It won't protect to as low a temp as 50/50 but it will cool better.
Edit: I should add that Water Wetter may have additives that the Glycol also has to prevent corrosion and the like.
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I don't get how this stuff can work. The C14 creates X amount of BTUs in heat right? This stuff claims that it can reduce that heat, where does the heat go?
I was going to say.....
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I just googled this and did some reading. The concencious is that it's snake oil. If you're running 100% water, it MAY help some.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/01/redline-waterwetter%C2%AE-review/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/01/redline-waterwetter%C2%AE-review/)
YMMV
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I just googled this and did some reading. The concencious is that it's snake oil. If you're running 100% water, it MAY help some.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/01/redline-waterwetter%C2%AE-review/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/01/redline-waterwetter%C2%AE-review/)
YMMV
They must have changed the link after you posted it. What I read was that the author performed a non-scientific test without proper controls and was not impressed. There was no consensus (assuming that is what you meant) that the product was ineffective, as the comments ran more favorable for Water Wetter than unfavorable.
It is what it is. If you have a well-functioning cooling system with excess capacity and you are not running on the track (spilled coolant is dangerously slippery, WatterWetter is not), you may not need the product.
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WW worked for my 1991 vette but I doubt it will make any diff when it comes to radiated heat from the tank. The only way to fix that (that I know of) is to direct cool airflow to the top of the motor/bottom of the frame and it will exhaust back and down around the swingarm pivot. Definitely works but is a huge engineering job.
Fretka
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They must have changed the link after you posted it. What I read was that the author performed a non-scientific test without proper controls and was not impressed. There was no consensus (assuming that is what you meant) that the product was ineffective, as the comments ran more favorable for Water Wetter than unfavorable.
It is what it is. If you have a well-functioning cooling system with excess capacity and you are not running on the track (spilled coolant is dangerously slippery, WatterWetter is not), you may not need the product.
Yep, that's what I meant. :-[
That wasn't the only site I read, there are many and they all pretty much say the same thing.
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The mechanic who recommeded water wetter to me owned his own shop and ran a motocross team and used it in his race motors. Per my post I can't make any real claims for the C14 due to the vaugueness of the temp guage. But for the VFR I was struggling to keep the gauge below 220 with slow or stop and go riding using Honda Pre-mix. With the Water Wetter I am rarely seeing more than 198.
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Straight water cools much better than a 50/50 Water Glycol mix. As long as the temps stay above freezing this would be your best bet to make the engine run cooler. Or else use a 70/30 Water Glycol Mix. It won't protect to as low a temp as 50/50 but it will cool better. Edit: I should add that Water Wetter may have additives that the Glycol also has to prevent corrosion and the like.
+1
You took the words out of my mouth. Plain water (distilled, is preferred) performs much better than 50% glycol mixes, which is what is typically used. Now, running plain water is NOT a good long-term idea- it offers NO corrosion protection and no boil/freeze protection. However... 50% mixes of glycol are WAY overkill for most people. The default 50% is down to -38F!!!! Where I live, it very rarely gets below +20F. So read the packaging/research for mixing more MORE water and less glycol antifreeze/coolant.
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The mechanic who recommeded water wetter to me owned his own shop and ran a motocross team and used it in his race motors. Per my post I can't make any real claims for the C14 due to the vaugueness of the temp guage. But for the VFR I was struggling to keep the gauge below 220 with slow or stop and go riding using Honda Pre-mix. With the Water Wetter I am rarely seeing more than 198.
Are you using Water water added to 50/50 or just straight water? It is a good improvement either way. Have you checked to make sure your radiator isn't getting plugged?
For racing Water Wetter plus straight distilled water does make sense. But I'm not convinced on its usefulness on the street.
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WaterWetter does work, as do some other products. I run Maxima Koolaide in my race bikes. Your engine will run cooler, but whether you'll be able to objectively prove this, is another matter.
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I don't get how this stuff can work. The C14 creates X amount of BTUs in heat right? This stuff claims that it can reduce that heat, where does the heat go?
Yeah it works, as someone else posted. We run this in the motocross bikes, where the big thumpers will boil over in a matter of seconds on the starting line. It's been widely proven to improve the cooling in these engines and will work in any water cooled engine far as I can tell. The claims are not bogus.
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These additives have surfactants in them which lower the surface tension of the water allowing it to make better "contact" and transfer heat better.
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I rate this crap right up there with "Scamsoil"
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It dropped the idle temp of My Jeep from 205 to 195. That is significant, because crawling along in 4lo in the rocks is tough duty, & I can do that with the air conditioner on & not overheat. I pretty happy with that.
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These additives have surfactants in them which lower the surface tension of the water allowing it to make better "contact" and transfer heat better.
Bingo. Fill a glass until it's "too full", or until the surface tension of the water makes the top surface bow outward taller than the top of the glass. Now drip a drop of dishwasher detergent into the glass; the extra water runs out, and the surface of the water is now flat. Without the surface tension the water can't form a meniscus, and on a microscopic level that allows the water to have more contact with the surfaces inside the engine and radiator. More contact means more BTU's transferred per liter of coolant flow, so the engine can run cooler. The C14 has a robust cooling system, so any improvement would be minimal...maybe keeping the fan from kicking on for a few extra seconds. On my '86 1000 Ninja with a borderline cooling system in the Tucson heat, it dropped average temps about 10° across the board. I doubt you'd cool the tank or seat area much, but what the heck...I've been wrong before. Try it, and report back (but be objective!)
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I rate this crap right up there with "Scamsoil"
Well, you're wrong. Tested in the racing world where 4Stroke motors run so hot you can't sit on the starting line with the engine running for more than a minute. The stuff works. Plenty of independent tests have established this.
"Tested" is different than just having an opinion about something you know nothing about.
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After a 2500 mile trip with the water wetter I decided to go back to 50/50 water and anti-freeze.
I believe the water wetter works as claimed but as a means to make the rider cooler it fails. The extra heat removed from the engine by the radiator just ends up bathing the riders legs. My wife noticed that when I splayed my legs (to get relief from the heat) she would get hit by a blast of hot air. So while the Water Wetter workd great to solve my VFR's overheating problem it makes the C14 rider hotter, not cooler.
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I have been an engine builder for about 25 years. I live in Florida. I have ALOT of experience with water-wetter, So here ya go...
Water wetter and similar procducts do nothing to cool the engine. They are surfactants that break the surface tension of water, thus allowing 100% water - or a high % of water relative to antifreeze.
Anti-freeze is a poor product for cooling. Poor BTU transfer. Slow to heat, slow to cool. Water is the best. Problem is that water develops "nucleate boiling" which is basically the little bubbles you see in the bottom of the pan when you boil water before the water really gets to boiling. In your engine, the places where the bubble forms will create a hot spot, and not only won't cool, it will break down the metal in that area. WW allows the water to flow and fill these areas, and provide cooling without hot spots. Since water is the best liquid for heat transfer, it can now wick the heat away to the radiator, and then dispersed to the air.
If you live in an area wher you may encounter freezing, you'll need to add some antifreeze for freeze protection. The higher the A/F the less water, the less effective heat transfer. In an automobile, you need about 15% a/f to prevent the heater core from freezing up when using the a/c.
As far as "running cooler" well, you need to understand the mechanism of cooling an engine. We have thermostats that control the MINIMUM operating temps. WW won't cool the engine below that level. Sitting in traffic and the fan still comes on at the same temp as before, but you think it shouldn't? Wrong, the fan is thermostatically controlled, it should ALWAYS come on at the same temp regardless of what the cooling media is. What you WILL notice with WW and a high water % is that the engine is slower to come back up to the 'fan on" point, and the fan runs less during it's cycling time due to more efficient heat transfer. During regular riding down the road, by the time you've reached about 30 mph, you've met / exceeded the equivalent airflow that the fan can provide, so at theat point forward propulsion provides the air transfer.
One point everyone overlooks is that actually, the coolant, regardless of type, doesn't do the cooling. It does the TRANSFER of heat. that's all. Ambient air temps do the cooling. The hotter the ambient air, the less cooling available. For sake of arguement, let's say the cooling system can lose 50* of the coolant temp. If the ambient air temp goes up 20*, so does the the coolant's minimum temp. Remember that the thermostat controls that point most of the time - the only time we have an "issue" is when the rest of the system is overwhelmed and the temps start climbing above acceptable operating temps. This is where WW helps the system work more efficiently. Still, if the system is in poor condition or undersized for the application, even WW won't keep the temps in an acceptable temp range.
And to answer the obvoius question, Yes, I have WW and high % water / 15% AF in everything I own. HTH, Steve
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Great info Steve. But I don't think it changes my conclusion that Water Wetter causes more hot air exiting the radiator onto the rider.
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Yeah.....maybe. But it don't do squat for air-cooled engines! I know cuz I tried it! ::)