Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Spanky on June 14, 2014, 06:43:30 PM
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My buddy blew the fan fuse last weekend so we put a new one in and went on our merry way. Blew the fuse again and now the fan does not seem to come on regularly. He is making an appointment with the dealer to get it checked. They told him it may be up to 4 hours to diagnose if they have to trace a short in the wiring. Sounds like complete bunk to me, but I was hoping people on here that know electrical "stuff" could tell me if this is reasonable or at least some ideas what may cause this situation. Thanks!
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Warranty?
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His warranty ran out in January. He did not get the extended. Made him a little sick to his stomach when I told him what the fans sell for on RonAyers, so hopefully it is something much less expensive. This is why I am asking about a reasonable time to trouble shoot something like this because he will have to pay for it.
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His warranty ran out in January. He did not get the extended.
Huge mistake. I *hate* extended warranties. But the Ultimate Cycles in Richmond dealer price of the 3 year extended warranty on the Concours is an insanely good deal and something EVERY owner should buy (and as many times as one can). Just one repair over a three year period and it likely pays for itself at least once if not more times over. Even things you KNOW are going to fail, like the battery in the TPS, are covered and that will pay for the entire warranty.
This is why I am asking about a reasonable time to trouble shoot something like this because he will have to pay for it.
Electrical problems can be notoriously difficult to find and repair. They will have no idea how long it takes and will likely quote high so as to not get in trouble when it really does take that long.... but it might take far less. This is assuming a good/reputable repair shop, of course.
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Electrical problems can be notoriously difficult to find and repair. They will have no idea how long it takes and will likely quote high so as to not get in trouble when it really does take that long.... but it might take far less. This is assuming a good/reputable repair shop, of course.
Yup. If it's a chafed wire...you may find the bad spot in an hour...or 8 hours...it really depends.
I had a Buell in a couple weeks ago that was blowing fuses, and I told the owner it would take somewhere between 40 minutes and 4 hours and 40 minutes to find the bad spot.
Rem 8)
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I see extended warranties as good insurance for major problems. Minor stuff like fans may be self diagnosed if you are handy with tools.
Try removing the fan and testing it. Something could be keeping the fan from rotating.
p.s. I use the term minor repair loosely when servicing the C14 because plastic removal can be a challenge for some.
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I see extended warranties as good insurance for major problems. Minor stuff like fans may be self diagnosed if you are handy with tools.
Try removing the fan and testing it. Something could be keeping the fan from rotating.
p.s. I use the term minor repair loosely when servicing the C14 because plastic removal can be a challenge for some.
One thing to try, see if you can reach through the faring openings, possibly with something long...like a wooden dowel rod, long screwdriver, etc... And spin the fan...(key off, of course.)
May have seized the bearing in the fan motor. That'll blow the fuse, as soon as the stat tries to turn it on. If it won't spin...there's you're problem, and you didn't have to remove anything, either.
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Good info! Thank you for the replys. I feel better knowing the dealer was being honest when they said it may take alot of time to find. Didn't check to see if the fans will actually spin - will do that. I hope for Steves sake that it is not the fans - they are crazy expensive to buy new.
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:yikes:
FAN-ASSY
item: 59502-0579
qty: 1 @ $320.33
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Good info! Thank you for the replys. I feel better knowing the dealer was being honest when they said it may take alot of time to find. Didn't check to see if the fans will actually spin - will do that. I hope for Steves sake that it is not the fans - they are crazy expensive to buy new.
Yup, see if they both spin freely before checking anything else.
Expensive new, yes, but they're all over Ebay for as low as $30-$40 each. ZX14 fans should be the same.
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:yikes:
FAN-ASSY
LOL- when I first read that, I saw "FAN-TASY"
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zx 14 shows a single fan
Max, at that price it is. :)
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Someone sells an aftermarket fan for us where the blades are metal, I think.
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Muzzy sells metal blades. Don't think they sell the whole unit.
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I once had a still-covered-under-warranty Suzuki that had an electrical problem and the dealer flat refused to work on it. He said Suzuki doesn't pay us as much as it costs to fix. Needless to say, that dealer, where I bought the bike, never got another $1 of my money.
Anyway, I knew that the problem had to be in a specific circuit after looking at the wiring diagram. So I traced it from the start and found that a factory-installed crimp under the tank had come loose and was intermittent. Total time? 15 minutes most of which was removing the tank.
So use what you know and study the wiring diagram. The fault is somewhere in the HOT side of the fan circuit since a fault on the LOW/GROUND side will NOT blow the fuse. As has been mentioned, the problem might be the fan itself. Check the fan. Try unplugging the fan and see if the fuse still blows. If it's in the wiring, the fuse should blow regardless of the fan. If it only blows when the fan is connected, the issue is probably the fan itself.
If it's not the fan it's a pinched or otherwise compromised wire that is shorting to the frame or some other ground path and causing too much current to flow. Starting at the fan, work your way back to the fuse block. Yes, you'll probably have to remove fairings and the fuel tank but my guess is that you'll find the problem in a LOT less than 4 hours of shop time. Chances are that the issue is not in a bundle of wires covered with a wrapper as there is unlikely to be anything in there to short against. It will be in one of the places where that wire is exposed to damage.
Good luck, I'd much rather do this sort of work myself than let the yahoo's at the dealer mess up your bike.
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Thanks JWH. I will see if he wants to give that a try. I am comfortable with removing the fairing, gas tank, fans, etc. I am not much of an electronics person, but something like you are describing should be relatively easy to find. I think it is just the fans on that fuse, so their should not be too many wires involved.
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I once had a still-covered-under-warranty Suzuki that had an electrical problem and the dealer flat refused to work on it. He said Suzuki doesn't pay us as much as it costs to fix.
Oooh, being that "up front" with such a statement could cost that dealer his dealership.... I don't think manufacturers take kindly to such stunts. We all *KNOW* dealers don't like warranty work with many manufacturers, and will often put off customers or delay them or find other things magically "wrong" they can also charge for during the covered repair. But to flatly refuse warranty work absolutely has to be against their agreement with the manufacturer and I would be on the phone with them in no time reporting it... (AND probably take my business elsewhere).
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Thanks JWH. I will see if he wants to give that a try. I am comfortable with removing the fairing, gas tank, fans, etc. I am not much of an electronics person, but something like you are describing should be relatively easy to find. I think it is just the fans on that fuse, so their should not be too many wires involved.
By the way, you didn't mention...did the fuse blow when the bike was hot? Or did it just blow randomly?
The cooling fans will come on between the 4th and 5th temp blocks on the gauge. I can tell you the exact temps, but it doesn't matter for this test. So, if the fuse blows before the 4th temp block comes on, the problem is likely between the fuse box and the relay pack. If it blows a few minutes after the 4th temp block comes on, in which case the fan relay will close, the problem is between the relay and the fan, or like mentioned previously, the fan itself.
So, if the fuse is blowing randomly, even when the bike is cold, the problem is under the seat...between the fuse box, and the relay pack that is mounted on top of the FI ECU. If I recall correctly, the fan relay is the one all the way to the left of the bike. If the fuse only blows when the bike is hot and calling for the fan to come on, then the problem will be between the relay pack and the fan/radiator.
And, the Kawasaki dealer does have the ability to turn the fan on and off in the KDS diagnostics, which would help the troubleshooting...but following the wires inch by inch still takes time;).
Cheers,
Rem 8)
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Thank you Rembrant. i don't know when the fuse is blowing, but I will ask. Thank you for the very good info. It would be nice if it was just a bad relay.
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You did not mention how many miles on the bike and more specifically if the bike had a value check and or adjustment done. I would never trust a shop to reassemble the cables, wires and fairing stays properly. It is the most time consuming and complicated part of the job. Having gone through the process, I can tell you it is critical that the wires are routed very specifically in the correct position to avoid chafing. If I remember, the lead to the fans has to be routed over the head and through the air dam assembly in a specific way. I would pull off the right side fairing and inspect the wires from the plug to the fans. You should also be able to carefully hand spin the fans to make sure you have no seizures or obstructions. The routing diagrams are in the service manual. If the fan relay is bad you should throw a service code #56. This is from a 2008 manual.
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My 08 blew a fuse a couple years back on our annual Florida trip. I was able to put a higher amperage fuse in it to get through the trip. You could hear one of the fans was running about half speed. After a couple of days it started running full speed and would run on the standard fuse. Been fine now for two years. Not sure if it was the relay or the fan causing high amperage draw my guess would be the fan, but now with it working not easy to diagnose.
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Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the great suggestions. The bike has about 15k but has not been in for its first valve adjustment and major service, so to my knowledge, the wiring has not been moved at all. We will check to see if the fans spin freely and I will ask Steve when the fuse blows ie random or after reaching the temp where the fans turn on. Thanks again everyone for helping to narrow down what to check for and where to look, very much appreciated.
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Preliminary results so far:
We spun the fan on the left side as you are sitting on the bike and there was some resistance then a sound like a small stone falling in the fairing, then the fan started to spin freely. Right side fan spun freely from the start. Hopefully that is all there was that was wrong. Will see if the fan/fuse works properly over the next day or so. If there is still a problem, we will trace the wires next, but I think the obstruction was probably the whole problem.
Thanks for all the help!
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Cool!
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Left fan is still toast. RonAyers price is $450.00 for a small plastic fan. Sometimes Kawi needs to perform inhuman acts on my totally undersized man part. Ebay $47.00 shipped for a left fan with 8,400 miles on the clock. Will update once I know more. Thanks again for all the help everyone!
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Installed the new used fan from ebay yesterday. Works perfect! Turns out that there were some tar and chip pepples stuck to his radiator and one of them jammed up the fan. Thanks again for all the help!
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Turns out that there were some tar and chip pepples stuck to his radiator and one of them jammed up the fan.
They do keep some really tight clearances, don't they?
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Maxtog, not sure if the pepple was lodged inbetween the radiator and the fan or if it stuck somewhere else. They were totally coated in tar and we had to take some time cleaning them from the radiatior, so it is possible it was stuck anywhere on the fan. Still in shock over the price they charge for a little plastic fan - unreal.
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Maxtog, not sure if the pepple was lodged inbetween the radiator and the fan or if it stuck somewhere else. They were totally coated in tar and we had to take some time cleaning them from the radiatior,
What a mess! What the hell did he drive over/through? Yuck
so it is possible it was stuck anywhere on the fan. Still in shock over the price they charge for a little plastic fan - unreal.
Well, that is certainly not unique to Kawasaki. It seems to be the norm to have 400% markup or more on parts and components for vehicles. You know the old saying- if you were to build a vehicle from what they charge for parts, it could be as expensive as a house!
Interesting story- I installed LED under-cabinet strip lighting for my Mom on my last trip to her condo a few weeks ago. We purchased the parts from Home Depot. The one package of strip lighting was an insane $70 for 12 feet. Later that week I found nearly a nearly identical product on Amazon, no-name, for $7. And they are making enough profit off that $7 (with free shipping) to stay in business. Not quite the same situation, but it does show how insane markups can be at times.
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I don't know if the problem is fixed yet, but I would hook an external supply to the fans with a fuse in line and start them up several times to see if they blow the fuse. The starts need be hard starts, full supply voltage, another words don't bring up the supply if its a variable. Apply full voltage so that the current draw will be at its maximum.
If this doesn't blow the fuse let the fans run for a while and see if the fuse blows, if that works I would suspect the problem being someplace else as in the electrical feed.
You may want to disconnect the fans and trigger the ckt thru the sensor that controls the Fan on, see if that blows the fuse, if it does check the wiring.
I would suspect that only the high current side of the relay is fused, not the coil side but check the wiring diagram.
This may not be as difficult to diagnose as you think. I always use an ammeter on my external power sources, but remember that an ammeter may not indicate a start up surge. That's one of the reasons that I suggested that you use a fuse.
Fred
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Thanks for the info fmwhit, but it was the left fan that was causing the fuse to blow. It is all A OK now! Luckily for only $47.00 and a few hours time :) Not bad considering what it would have cost at a dealer.
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I once had a still-covered-under-warranty Suzuki that had an electrical problem and the dealer flat refused to work on it. He said Suzuki doesn't pay us as much as it costs to fix. Needless to say, that dealer, where I bought the bike, never got another $1 of my money.
Anyway, I knew that the problem had to be in a specific circuit after looking at the wiring diagram. So I traced it from the start and found that a factory-installed crimp under the tank had come loose and was intermittent. Total time? 15 minutes most of which was removing the tank.
So use what you know and study the wiring diagram. The fault is somewhere in the HOT side of the fan circuit since a fault on the LOW/GROUND side will NOT blow the fuse. As has been mentioned, the problem might be the fan itself. Check the fan. Try unplugging the fan and see if the fuse still blows. If it's in the wiring, the fuse should blow regardless of the fan. If it only blows when the fan is connected, the issue is probably the fan itself.
If it's not the fan it's a pinched or otherwise compromised wire that is shorting to the frame or some other ground path and causing too much current to flow. Starting at the fan, work your way back to the fuse block. Yes, you'll probably have to remove fairings and the fuel tank but my guess is that you'll find the problem in a LOT less than 4 hours of shop time. Chances are that the issue is not in a bundle of wires covered with a wrapper as there is unlikely to be anything in there to short against. It will be in one of the places where that wire is exposed to damage.
Good luck, I'd much rather do this sort of work myself than let the yahoo's at the dealer mess up your bike.
+1 :thumbs: