Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: SVonhof on June 10, 2011, 07:50:06 AM
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Yesterday I went to put the saddlebags on (I installed them only once before since I had the bike). The left one, when in place, the latch didn't line up at all with the hook. I figured when I had the bike tip over on the driveway (rolled forward because of the angle of the driveway), since I didn't have the bags on, it hit the bracket that the passenger peg and the saddlebag "knob" is on and may have bent it. I pulled the bracket off and it looks fine, but the metal tab that is welded to the subframe looks like it might have bent.
I then left the bracket off and tried to put the saddlebag on and with just the hooks on the saddlebag attached, it still wasn't aligning right, but I was able to get it to latch. I then put the bracket back on and spaced it out partway with a washer to try to take some of the strain off the plastic tabs and such. Is this normal? It also didn't look like the saddlebag where it catches on the "knob" is as engaged as the other side.
Here are some pics.
Without forcing it to line up, this is what it looks like:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0288.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0289.jpg)
This is as far as the tabs engage with the knob:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0290.jpg)
Showing how close the bag is to the fairing (it doesn't touch, but is close):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0291.jpg)
Here is where the tab is welded to the subframe and it looks like the paint cracked as the weld started to bend:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0292.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0293.jpg)
This is with the spacer behind the bracket, it's as good as I could get it engaged:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0294.jpg)
Does that look right? I literally had only installed the bags one other time since I got the bike and that was before the drop and I don't remember that latch being that hard to engage.
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No that doesn't look right at all. The top latch is obviously not engaging properly and if you look at the pictures in this other thread you will see that the bottom mount is also not correct. Something is badly bent or misaligned.
http://zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1152.0 (http://zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1152.0)
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Crap.
As I figured.
I need to take some more time and see if I can figure out if the bracket or the tab is truly bent or if something else is going on. The welded on tab does seem to be bent (has a slight curve to it), but the only way to fix it would be to attempt to bend it back (yeah, right) or have it cut off and re-welded. Or replace the rear sub-frame....
Crap.
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It looks like you have an aftermarket shock air canister mounted in a space that may be interferring with proper mounting of the bags.
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The little white lines around the weld on the brackets, unless it's just something the digital camera is adding, seem to indicate that the brackets welds have been partially broken.
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JetJock, I don't know that the welds are partially broken, but I can't be sure. I would think they are bent as if the weld is done right, the weld will be stronger than the original material.
Shoe, I assumed that is a stock air canister for the shock, I don't believe the guy I bought it from did anything to the rear shock. That air canister doesn't cause any problems with the bag mounting either. Doesn't touch a thing.
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JetJock, I don't know that the welds are partially broken, but I can't be sure. I would think they are bent as if the weld is done right, the weld will be stronger than the original material.
The white lines might indicate that the weld has cracked. When you see lines like this where the paint has what appear to be fracture lines, well that's what they probably are. As for the weld being stronger than the original material, even if it has been bent, well that's an original theory. I'd consider that part being much closer to failure, especially if it gets stressed again.
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The white lines might indicate that the weld has cracked. When you see lines like this where the paint has what appear to be fracture lines, well that's what they probably are. As for the weld being stronger than the original material, even if it has been bent, well that's an original theory. I'd consider that part being much closer to failure, especially if it gets stressed again.
No doubt.
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This is exactly what mine looked like after a 15-20 mph laydown on the left side. They had to replace the whole bracket. I am not sure if they re-welded the tab, but my bag is rock solid again.
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O.K., so, next question. Would you guys feel safe riding with it that way, if you were able to get the latch to catch, but basically had to force it to be able to catch?
Rawman, can you see if you can find out what the repair entailed? Dealer job I assume?
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JetJock, I don't know that the welds are partially broken, but I can't be sure. I would think they are bent as if the weld is done right, the weld will be stronger than the original material.
Shoe, I assumed that is a stock air canister for the shock, I don't believe the guy I bought it from did anything to the rear shock. That air canister doesn't cause any problems with the bag mounting either. Doesn't touch a thing.
You sure trust Kawi!
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O.K., I think I have a temporary solution that will get me through this weekend's ride with my wife. Smaller screws (8mm), some washers and nuts. I can shim the bracket to get it in the right position, I think. Off to Orchard Supply Hardware, since they have the best selection of screws and bolts and such in the area.
I will report back.
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Those paint cracks at the top of the weld are a very good indicator that the bracket was stressed pretty severely.
Given how loose my bags are, and that I've already seen how the rear frame on my bike is slightly twisted (poor manufacturing tolerances), I wonder if the tolerance of positioning that bracket when they manufactured the bike explains why several folks have looser bag mounts than others.
LT1 had his bag(s) come off from a good jolt while riding onto a bridge, and there was a YouTube video of a guy jerking his off of his bike while parked.
If you are brave, you could try tapping the back side of that bracket with a plastic hammer (a dead blow would be better). If the bracket moves easily, that should tell you how uncomfortable to be with leaving the bags on until it's fixed. If it takes a lot to move it just enough to tighten up the latch, you may be OK. Either way, it's your bike, and your responsibility.
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Rawman, can you see if you can find out what the repair entailed? Dealer job I assume?
Yes, it was an insurance claim for the dealer repair. I just know that the Repair Manager at the dealer did not really want to take the whole rear apart after I noticed the bag did not fit right. I got the feeling this was NOT an easy fix.
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Interesting comments guys. I did try to "beat" the bracket back into shape, but that didn't happen. I even got brave and got my pry-bar out and put it between the tubing and the tab and bend the tab back that way and it wouldn't budge, so it's pretty secure. I will get this fixed correctly, but for the quick fix for the weekend (worst thing that would happen is I loose the left bag during the ride and I have to claim the whole thing on insurance anyway I guess) I was able to get 8mm x 45 socket head cap screws, 8mm washers and a 10mm washer under the head into the front part of the bracket. On the back side of the bracket, I placed a washer between that and the welded tab and also shoved a thinner washer in the front and a thicker washer in the rear location, just on the bottom part of the bracket (hopefully the pictures will explain better) with lock washers and nuts on the back of the tab.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0301.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0300.jpg)
Not ideal, but it stopped the bracket from twisting to follow the shape of the tab since it "curled" when the drop happened. This took almost all the pressure off the latch on the saddle bag.
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Should work great for your trip, and now you can relax and enjoy the ride without staring at the bag in the mirror all the way.
Enjoy the ride!
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Thank you for posting this info. I think you guys saved my left bag. The right fits tight, but the left, not so much. I ordered some clips and may go with pins as well.
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Well, rode about 200 miles yesterday with my wife on the back and we didn't loose anything, so the temporary fix worked. I will be going to the local dealer on Tuesday to get their opinion on how long it would take to replace the sub-frame and get a price on them to do the work and see if it's something I want to tackle.
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Just out of curiosity, I looked up the price for the rear section of the frame, and WOW, it's not cheap! Didn't really have an expectation of cost, but still experienced some sticker shock - $586.20 for the tail section (http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/469807 (http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/469807)) from one of the lowest priced sites on the web. I also noticed the 2010 is a different part number.
It would probably be several hours of labor to swap it out. There's nothing major involved like pulling the motor or rear swing arm or suspension parts, just plastic, wiring, electrical components, etc.
I looked at this job on mine awhile back because it is tweaked / twisted from the factory. One side is higher than the other by a noticeable amount. When I installed Phil's Rack, I had to shim it with washers to get it to work. Without them, the rack was warping so badly, my case would not mount properly.
It would be interesting to hear what the dealer quotes you to do this job. For the cost, it may be less to have yours reworked by a competent welder.
Keep us posted.
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Will do C1xRider.
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I'm starting to better understand the flying bag syndrome after reading this thread.
33,000 miles and mine are still hanging on and I've done nothing to protect them except ask the wimenz to be careful and not kick 'em while getting on and off the big behemoth bike (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconhammer.gif)
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It looks like you have an aftermarket shock air canister mounted in a space that may be interferring with proper mounting of the bags.
I'm pretty sure that's the stock rear preload adjuster.
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Stopped by the dealer today and they quoted $250 for labor and $720 for a new subframe.
$250 is less than I figured it would be, but the $720 for the subframe is really ridiculous.
They did recommend calling the "frame man" in Sacramento. He specializes in straightening motorcycle frames. Either that or using my insurance for what it is meant for.
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If it was mine I would use an adjustable wrench and bend it back in place. Brush a little paint on it and keep an eye on it. Probably out last the bike as long as its not dropped again. Find a good weld shop and have them disconnect the battery and lay a couple of passes on it with a MIG welder if it moves again.
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I am going to see what I can do to bend it back and see how that goes. That will help me decide if I need to do anything else with it. I might get to that tomorrow or Sunday, we shall see.
I will report back.
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Stopped by the dealer today and they quoted $250 for labor and $720 for a new subframe.
$250 is less than I figured it would be, but the $720 for the subframe is really ridiculous.
They did recommend calling the "frame man" in Sacramento. He specializes in straightening motorcycle frames. Either that or using my insurance for what it is meant for.
$250 is less than I expected too, although it shouldn't be more than 2 or 3 hours of work, so given typical shop rates, that's probably a good price.
I suppose you could always ask them about you buying it somewhere else, and letting them install it.
Personally though, I would go for the idea tbanzer proposed. If you could not move it with a small hammer, then it should be solid enough to put a big crescent / adjustable wrench on it and bend it back out. You might even need a piece of pipe on the end of the wrench, to provide more leverage. If it breaks, then either get it welded or you are back where you were earlier, having it replaced.
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snip.....
I looked at this job on mine awhile back because it is tweaked / twisted from the factory. One side is higher than the other by a noticeable amount. When I installed Phil's Rack, I had to shim it with washers to get it to work. Without them, the rack was warping so badly, my case would not mount properly.
Wait a minute. The frame on your 2010 came from the factory twisted? What did your dealer have to say about this?
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Wait a minute. The frame on your 2010 came from the factory twisted? What did your dealer have to say about this?
:rotflmao:
That's a good one Conrad! I really had a good laugh from reading it.
Seriously, the dealers look at the bike and say "What problem?". They can barely be convinced to address blatant, obvious problems like warped brake rotors.
Yes, the rear section of the frame (small diameter, welded tubing) is twisted. It causes the rack to bend severely when bolted down. I had to add shim washers to use Phil's rack, as it warped it so badly (and my top case mount), that my top case would not even mount to the mounting plate. If I stand behind the bike, I can tell one saddle bag sits higher than the other. To most, it probably appears to be an optical illusion, but I have measured it to be certain.
I suppose if I could find a spec for frame dimensions with the max limits allowed by the factory, like they provide for automobiles, and prove to a dealer it was out of spec, then I could get them to fix it. I've never seen anything like this for motorcycles, and the 2010 FSM has nothing like that in it (that I have found).
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:rotflmao:
That's a good one Conrad! I really had a good laugh from reading it.
Seriously, the dealers look at the bike and say "What problem?". They can barely be convinced to address blatant, obvious problems like warped brake rotors.
Yes, the rear section of the frame (small diameter, welded tubing) is twisted. It causes the rack to bend severely when bolted down. I had to add shim washers to use Phil's rack, as it warped it so badly (and my top case mount), that my top case would not even mount to the mounting plate. If I stand behind the bike, I can tell one saddle bag sits higher than the other. To most, it probably appears to be an optical illusion, but I have measured it to be certain.
I suppose if I could find a spec for frame dimensions with the max limits allowed by the factory, like they provide for automobiles, and prove to a dealer it was out of spec, then I could get them to fix it. I've never seen anything like this for motorcycles, and the 2010 FSM has nothing like that in it (that I have found).
That's crazy!
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I am going to see what I can do to bend it back and see how that goes. That will help me decide if I need to do anything else with it. I might get to that tomorrow or Sunday, we shall see.
I will report back.
Before you do that,PM Haroldo, he'll be more than happy to be of assistance...... ;D 8)
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Before you do that,PM Haroldo, he'll be more than happy to be of assistance...... ;D 8)
Is he good at bending things? What am I missing?
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Is he good at bending things? What am I missing?
Oh yeah, he's good at bending things! Usually not on purpose though.
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I removed the extra washers, nuts and screws and put the stock ones back on and also moved the reservoir for the rear suspension and tried bending the tab this evening. I couldn't do it by hand with the stock bracket but I did pull off a pipe that is used for my floor jack. I was able to place the narrow end inside the hollow section of the bracket and bend it back slowly. I did break part of the aluminum off the cast passenger footpeg bracket, but it won't affect the structural element of the bracket in my mind. To make sure I didn't break it completely, I did get some wood and put it between the bracket and the pipe to insulate the bracket some and that helped get me more leverage.
I held onto the bike and had the pipe in the bend where my pelvis is and pulled my body toward the bike and also pushed with my right foot. I probably bent it 10 different times to get it back to it's normal position, which is way better than doing it all at once. Now, when I try to latch the saddlebag, it takes just slight pressure with the handle (on the saddlebag) to get it to latch.
I think I am good to go for now. I will end up replacing the stock passenger pegs with probably some Vario pegs (see link: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1944.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1944.0)) so we will see how the whole thing holds up when my wife gets on the bike with those as that will apply a little more pressure to the welded tab.
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Here is what the bracket looks like now with the two dinged up sections from my bending exercise:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0315.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/moto/IMAG0316.jpg)
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For the top part, if anyone asks, just call it a 'mouse bite'. Should not affect anything structurally, it's just cosmetic. I'll bet with some JB Weld (and the missing piece), and some black coloring, no one would notice.
For the lower marks, a little precision filing of the burrs and some black coloring, should make it invisible in all but direct sunlight.
Or, you could just surf eBay, where you might find a replacement one cheap.
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Or, you could just surf eBay, where you might find a replacement one cheap.
If anything, that is the route I will take.