Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Armyguns on June 09, 2011, 07:58:43 PM
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I'm headed for Guhl Motors by 7AM tomorrow. Don and I spoke earlier today and he asked if I could be there around 9AM. Mapquest says 91 miles, 1 hr 51 minutes. PSYCHED!
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Cool. Keep us updated. Also ask Don re: status of 08/09 reflash.
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Really can't wait to hear the results of this.
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I was with Don and Rob from Guhl Motors yesterday. Fred H. has asked me to share my thoughts with all of you.
First, on Guhl Motors. I'm glad that Don described their location, otherwise I think I would have had a tough time finding them. Non-descript metal building behind an outdoor equipment retailer. I arrived a couple minutes before our agreed to time of 9AM and met Rob and Don. They gave me a run down on the business and Don explained what his intended approach was for the day. I immediately felt comfortable with them and their systematic approach to baselining performance and incrementally changing parameters.
We got the bike strapped onto the dyno and in short order they made the first of six of the pulls for the day. Don was very patient in allowing me to look over their shoulder and ask questions and take notes. The first pull was for top speed, with a HP of 131.3 and torque of 89.4 in fifth gear. I do know that Don seemed really excited to absolutely determine the factory 155MPH speed limiter.
Between the first and second pull, he reflashed the ECU to remove the speed limiter and he shifted the opening of the secondaries by four cells (to the left). Fuel was left as is. The second pull showed a top speed of 193MPH. HP went to 132.5, and torque increased to 91.70. NOTE: NO changes to the amount of fuel were made. The only thing that changed (aside from removing the speed limiter) between the first and second pull was a shift in the point at which the secondaries open. The amount they opened stayed exactly the same.
Don felt that he wanted to try going richer on the fuel expecting an overall performance increase. He felt that although the ratio on the sensor looked OK, he could squeeze a bit more performance out of it. He applied a 5% across the board increase and made another pull. Torque DROPPED to 91.24 and it seems like I didn't record HP but it was lower. It was around this time that Don called Fred H. and they talked for the first time, but not the last time of the day.
Seeing the the decrease in performance, he went 10% lean (from the initial adjustment, or 5% lean from stock) and both HP and torque went back up, 133.77 and 91.91 respectively. He was pleased with that but still did not like the performance above 8K RPM. The charts clearly showed it was WAY rich. He changed fuel settings at 9K to -11%, at 9500 to -16% and at 10K to -20%. He also changed a setting at between 3 and 4K of 2 or 3% and did two additional pulls. Both of these pulls were 5% lean from stock, except for the 9K and above range and the 3-4 K range as just described. First pull results indicate 133.60 and 91.91. Second pull was 133.52 and 90.61 which is what I believe is reflected in the screen shots he provided, which I've attached. Across the board, the torque is higher with these settings, and there is no weird stuff going on above the 8K RPM range.
He asked me to take it for a spin and let him know how it felt by seat of the pants. Not being familiar with the local roads or the local police, I was a bit limited in what I felt comfortable trying. However, my initial thought was that this bike has NEVER pulled as hard as it was then. I tried roll-ons in every gear and it just PULLED, hard. I always considered the bike fast, but this is different. The changes Don made greatly improved roll on power. I wasn't really aware that it was lacking in that area, but once you have the mod done, the difference is pretty clear. I think this is going to be very helpful especially when riding two up.
It's a 100 mile ride back home from his place, with the vast majority of it on 2 lane highways, and a couple miles on interstate. I played with 4th, 5th, and 6th gear roll-ons and there is no question about the changes being a big improvement. This isn't a quantum leap in performance, but it is very noticeable.
I asked Don where he feels he is in terms of marketing this re-map. He is certain that this is THE map for installation on a stock bike. If you DO NOT have aftermarket exhaust or air filters, or have removed the secondaries, this is the one you would get. I told him that I would be posting this information and that he should probably be prepared to start getting some calls. Right now, the only way to get this mod is to send in the ECU or take the bike to them. He is working on a plug and play remap interface, but I am not sure how long it would be before that is available.
I've offered my bike to Don in the future if he wants to try anything more. Don also offered up that if I do mod anything else (air filter, exhaust, etc.,) he'd run the bike again in order to develop maps for them.
I had hoped to get some two-up riding in the next couple of days to make an assessment but it looks like the weather isn't going to cooperate. As soon as I do, I will post an update.
Time for some new tires. 1100 mostly high speed highway miles in the past week plus those dyno pulls yesterday pretty well toasted the rear! It's got 4300 on it now. I've ordered a set of the PR3's and they will be installed on Thursday. Absolutely need them before heading to Maryland next Saturday to take the ARC Level 2 class.
I hope I've adequately explained things!
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193 is impressive. Whats with the error message on the speedo shot?
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You get that error when only one wheel is spinning. It's the traction control throwing a fit. ;D
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Sounds like all it did was the same thing as pulling the flies accomplishes. Well that and removing the speed limiter. Of course 193 is just a pipe dream when you're actually pushing air.
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I know you are not going to like me saying this, and I hope you won't take it wrong, but I don't know how you could possibly feel that little difference. I've been around fast vehicles for a long, long time and I see a lot of people who feel what they want to feel based upon the money or effort they put into some sort of changes.
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Sounds like all it did was the same thing as pulling the flies accomplishes. Well that and removing the speed limiter. Of course 193 is just a pipe dream when you're actually pushing air.
Re: Pulling flies. Perhaps, but the concensus of folks is that the flies are there for a reason. If one chooses to pull them, have at it. I'll keep mine in (for now). We now know what can be done with a stock bike by moving the point at which they open and by leaning out the fuel. I guess the next step would be to examine the curves (torque and HP) in all of the gears not just 5th. I'd really like to continue this exploration and systematically do each gear, then add an exhaust system, then air filter, etc. But do it in a systematic approach to be able to identify the performance increase of each addition. For now, I'm satisfied.
Re: 193 MPH. That number came off the dyno, not the speedometer. Since we were not sure where it was going to top out at, I snapped the picture once the needle was above 180. You are correct that once friction (tires to road, and bike/rider to air) is factored in the bike will top out much lower. What that number is is irrelevant to me- I'll NEVER see it. I run out of testosterone (and road) long before I run out of acceleration!
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I know you are not going to like me saying this, and I hope you won't take it wrong, but I don't know how you could possibly feel that little difference. I've been around fast vehicles for a long, long time and I see a lot of people who feel what they want to feel based upon the money or effort they put into some sort of changes.
OK. No offense taken. However, I don't believe the peak HP tells all the story. It's the fattening of the curve across the band that I believe makes the difference. As far as investment, all I've got in it to get this far is a 100 mile drive and a couple of hours of my time. I'm semi-retired so time isn't that much of a factor for me. I've got no ego or other 'vested interest' involved. I went there with the expressed intention of getting DATA, hard data, collected in systematic manner. In the process, I've provided a lot of great data for people like Guhl Motors and Fred H, both of who have probably forgotten more about this than I'll ever know. If, based on these data, the ECU reflash doesn't interest you, at least it will be based on data.
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Dyno charts will show any fattening of the curve. I don't know why this is an issue. Will somebody dyno one and post the charts?
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Dyno charts will show any fattening of the curve. I don't know why this is an issue. Will somebody dyno one and post the charts?
Yikes, nevermind. I saw a chart.
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Dyno charts will show any fattening of the curve. I don't know why this is an issue. Will somebody dyno one and post the charts?
Looking at the charts above I'm not seeing anything in the curves to indicate a meaningful improvement anywhere.
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FWIW, dyno charts do not show the responsiveness of an engine. Typically, it is one long pull at full throttle. That will not necessarily show what will happen when going from partial to full throttle at various rpms.
It would take some specialized pulls with response time showing to show on a chart what is easily felt on the road.
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FWIW, dyno charts do not show the responsiveness of an engine. Typically, it is one long pull at full throttle. That will not necessarily show what will happen when going from partial to full throttle at various rpms.
It would take some specialized pulls with response time showing to show on a chart what is easily felt on the road.
I do agree with that. But it makes a bike feel more responsive, which is good, but it really doesn't make it feel faster.
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Hmm. Since I already have my flies out, I would be more interested in seeing what improvements could be made to the ignition timing. I'd like to see a flies-out dyno pull in each gear to see if our bikes are restricted by anything other than the flies in the lower gears. Fueling can be changed by a power commander, so other than the people who are insistant on keeping their flies in, so far I don't see much advantage to going the reflash route.
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I do agree with that. But it makes a bike feel more responsive, which is good, but it really doesn't make it feel faster.
I don't think we are that far off. It doesn't look like the reflash would dramatically improve 1/4 mile or 0-60 times. OTOH, I believe roll-on times would improve across the board. S/b easy enough to document.
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I'm cross posting my response to the TRE Timing Eliminator thread.
I just got off the phone with Don Guhl. He called to get some feedback from me since it has been a week (on Friday) since he reflashed my ECU. I told him that overall, I am very happy with the mod, but that I have not had the opportunity to really put a lot of miles on it. It rained here Saturday and Sunday so riding two up, with a toasted tire was out of the question. The tires are in and will be installed tomorrow so I will get some more seat time this coming weekend.
I told Don about my impression of overall harder pulling and acceleration in all gears and discussed the fact that we should probably have done some dyno runs in lower gears to look at acceleration and not just HP and Torque. He agreed and invited me back to do some additional runs in lower gears. We've set that up for 1 July- the earliest we could do it based on our schedules.
If the Guhl mod is something that interests you, by all means give him a call. I will certainly post our results as they become available.
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Such a back and forth topic with so many different opinions it is hard to know where the best place to invest some money in order to get the best performance out of this bike. I don't plan on taking it the track or trying to set world records but just would like to take advantage of what this bike is truly capable of. Honestly the more I drive it, the more disappointed I am with the overall power of the C14 :(
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The best place is rider training & education. After that it depends on your goals, needs and wants.
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From what I can see it doesn't look to be worth the effort unless you get a full exhaust.
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Does anyone know if there are different fuel or ignition timing curves for the different gears. As I brought up before I have a low rpm stutter in 1st - 4th gear but not in 5th or 6th.
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It is my understanding that there are separate, programmable ignition and fuel maps for each gear. I have heard contradictory reports as to whether the maps are different from the factory.
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The attached dyno chart from TODAY might change a few minds about the validity and worth of the Guhl reflash.
I dropped by Don's on my way back from ARC 2. He had a short time available between customers and we got my bike back on the dyno. He reflashed my ECU back to factory stock and we did a dyno run, but this time it was in 4th gear. Recall that last time all pulls were done in 5th, which really didn't show what I KNEW was going on by my seat of the pants. The stock run is the blue line. He then reflashed the ECU back to what he originally installed on June 10th. That is the red line on the chart. THIS chart clearly shows what my ass has been telling me- this bike pulls MUCH HARDER than stock. About a 10ft/lb gain at 3K RPM, plus 6 HP at that RPM. Those differences gradually decrease as RPM increases, but the reflash is always higher than stock.
It would have been nice to do 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear pulls, but his time was limited today. I have no question that the difference between stock and reflash will be just as dramatic in the lower gears. I've been saying all along that the bike isn't any faster, but it is quicker with more grunt.
I now have 1700 miles on the bike with his reflash. It is absolutely SOLID. I have not experienced a single negative aspect.
I hope this latest information helps to make an informed decision.
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Does this flash address the flies?
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Does this flash address the flies?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'address the flies'. This mod, as described within this thread leans out the fuel to varying degrees based on RPM (described within the thread) and opens the flies sooner (also described). We believe (or at least I believe) it is an alternative to pulling the flies out. Pulling the ECU has to be a lot easier to do than pulling the flies. The map that has been developed is applicable to a stock bike- no aftermarket exhaust or air filter. It would certainly work with aftermarket mods, but it is highly recommended to have a map developed on a dyno with those mods in place to insure that the correct air/fuel ratios are maintained. To the best of my knowledge this is the first time we have data showing before and after performance in a side-by-side way. The fifth gear pulls were done on the same day and within 30 minutes of each other. The fourth gear pulls, while done on a different day, were done within 20 minutes of each other. You will see that the peak numbers differ between the data collected on June 10 and that of today. This is easily accounted for by taking into consideration the variables we could not control- air temp and humidity, engine temp, and the fact that I got a new tire installed three days ago
I hope this helps.
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The attached dyno chart from TODAY might change a few minds about the validity and worth of the Guhl reflash.
Perfect this is just what I needed to see, now I just need to find some time between weekends to send the ECU in.
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Perfect this is just what I needed to see, now I just need to find some time between weekends to send the ECU in.
Ride it down there on a Sunday, spend the night, get it reflashed on Monday and head home enjoying the added torque!
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Ride it down there on a Sunday, spend the night, get it reflashed on Monday and head home enjoying the added torque!
If only I could, nope I'll pull in a few weeks before I leave on travel for a few weeks.
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We believe (or at least I believe) it is an alternative to pulling the flies out. Pulling the ECU has to be a lot easier to do than pulling the flies.
So less than 10 minutes and twisting 8 screws that are easy to access is now difficult? ;D Just kidding. It's nice to see a dyno run finally.
I still have to think that the gains you see on the low end are mainly from the flies being open early on.
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I still have to think that the gains you see on the low end are mainly from the flies being open early on.
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Remember that the fuel was leaned out 5% across the board and more intensive leaning between 3-4K RPM and above 8K RPM based on feedback from the broadband O2 sensor.
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Personally, I think that if you can lean out the fuel map 5% across the board and retain the original performance, much less increase it, you're way ahead. Mileage will improve, and your engine will run cleaner.
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If I was thinking of doing a full aftermarket exhaust and the ECU reflash so would I install the new exhaust and then ship off the ECU to be reflashed? I always thought that if I do a full aftermarket exhaust, that I would have to retune the bike in which case I would image the ECU would have to be reflashed again wouldn't it?
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If I was thinking of doing a full aftermarket exhaust and the ECU reflash so would I install the new exhaust and then ship off the ECU to be reflashed? I always thought that if I do a full aftermarket exhaust, that I would have to retune the bike in which case I would image the ECU would have to be reflashed again wouldn't it?
Your bike isn't being "tuned" if you send the ECU in for a reflash. It's being loaded with a map developed for that combination. So you would install your exhaust, send in your ECU and ask for a map appropriate for your full exhaust system.
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Your bike isn't being "tuned" if you send the ECU in for a reflash. It's being loaded with a map developed for that combination. So you would install your exhaust, send in your ECU and ask for a map appropriate for your full exhaust system.
Thanks.
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We need to be able to update our maps as needed. When we can do that, this reflash deal will be a huge success.
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A handheld programmer like what is available for my truck would be wicked. Set it up so you can plug it into a computer and download new tunes that the tuner can send you through email. That would be cool.
I don't know how easily flashed the ECU is however. A handheld flasher may not be practicle.
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A handheld programmer like what is available for my truck would be wicked. Set it up so you can plug it into a computer and download new tunes that the tuner can send you through email. That would be cool.
I don't know how easily flashed the ECU is however. A handheld flasher may not be practicle.
The way to accomplish that is with a Power Commander via a laptop PC. But, an ECU reflash does have one advantage a PC does not - you can change the timing curve.
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FYI, Guhl is working on a USB/laptop/motorcycle programming interface, but it is still down the road a bit. I'll be sending my ECU in for a reflash in a few weeks.
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Does anyone have the contact info for Guhl motors off hand?
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ghul+motors (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ghul+motors)
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ghul+motors (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ghul+motors)
Try this: http://www.guhlmotors.com/ (http://www.guhlmotors.com/)
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I was playing around yesterday looking at the 4th gear dyno chart and decided to look at the data in a slightly different way, one that might better show the performance gain. I took the before and after torque and HP numbers at each of the major RPM points and calculated the percent increase in them at those points. I then plotted the results. So what we see in the attached plot is the percent gain in HP and torque across the RPM range from stock. I have no doubt that the results are similar for each of the lower gears.
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Try this: http://www.guhlmotors.com/ (http://www.guhlmotors.com/)
Thanks
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ghul+motors (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ghul+motors)
Fail
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I am resurrecting this thread due to the other thread gaining popularity. There never seemed to be any "conclusion" with this thread. There was mention of more analysis was going to be done across all the gears- what happened? There was mention of Guhl developing a flashing system- what happened? It has been over a year now, Armyguns, are you still happy? There was never any mention of anyone else flashing except Lt1? I could find no other threads but this recent one: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=12544.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=12544.0)
I was playing around yesterday looking at the 4th gear dyno chart and decided to look at the data in a slightly different way, one that might better show the performance gain. [...]
The "peak hp" and "peak torque" numbers from the flash are pretty much a waste of time. But the 15% torque increase below 5000RPM should be noticeable. But even that is not "dramatic". As was mentioned before, it must be "response" that is most changed, which can't be seen on a typical dyno run chart.
I suspect it is almost all due to the flies, however and would have sparked a whole flies vs. flash thing that never really happened.
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Thanks, Max. :)
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<snip> It has been over a year now, Armyguns, are you still happy?
Maxtog- It has been over 13,000 miles and 1 1/2 years since my reflash. I have absolutely no regrets. Best 'bang for the buck'' I spent on ANY of the farkles I have purchased. As the 5th gear dyno runs show, it isn't about peak HP or torque. This mod is about making the numbers quicker. As we all know, this bike in factory stock trim is no slug. With the reflash there is a VERY noticeable increase in how quickly the bike accelerates and how hard it pulls. I do a fair amount of 2 up riding and the performance hit the bike takes with the increased weight of a passenger is completely off-set by the reflash. Acceleration is still strong and the need to downshift to stay in the 'power band' is greatly reduced. Want to pass- just crack the throttle and GO. No fuss, just GO. I can't recommend this mod enough.
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You guys with first gen bikes, when you spoke with Don, what options did you ask for in your reflash?
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You guys with first gen bikes, when you spoke with Don, what options did you ask for in your reflash?
Exactly, that was another on my list of unresolved questions.
And another was- what is the flies mapping while in ECO? Does that stay the same or is modified? Is the ECO map left unchanged for timing and AFR?
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Exactly, that was another on my list of unresolved questions.
Why? You don't have a first gen bike. Looking out for us Classic, FC (Fastest Color), and EA (Early Adopter) owners, Max? Not that we need the speed increase. We should probably be slowing our bikes down so we don't get hurt or speed off into another dimension we're so fast. Thanks for looking out for us, though. ;)
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Exactly, that was another on my list of unresolved questions.
And another was- what is the flies mapping while in ECO? Does that stay the same or is modified? Is the ECO map left unchanged for timing and AFR?
I don't have a first gen, so I can't answer that part.
The ECO mode is completely UNCHANGED. The map for that is in a different section of the ECU and Don (to the best of my knowledge) has not explored around in there.
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Why? You don't have a first gen bike. Looking out for us Classic, FC (Fastest Color), and EA (Early Adopter) owners, Max?
Yes. I tend to think a lot about others :)
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The ECO mode is completely UNCHANGED. The map for that is in a different section of the ECU and Don (to the best of my knowledge) has not explored around in there.
Thanks for the info. The map can be unchanged but what about the secondary butterflies? Is that at stock behavior while in ECO mode?
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Thanks for the info. The map can be unchanged but what about the secondary butterflies? Is that at stock behavior while in ECO mode?
Flies are untouched on the ECO map with the Guhl reflash. The ECO mode is factory stock across the board.
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Flies are untouched on the ECO map with the Guhl reflash. The ECO mode is factory stock across the board.
That is good news- it means one could almost have a "before and after" type experience... well, except that the ECO mode automatically cancels itself under heavy throttle/RPM :)
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That is good news- it means one could almost have a "before and after" type experience... well, except that the ECO mode automatically cancels itself under heavy throttle/RPM :)
You absolutely can do a 'before/after' test except under max throttle. Very instructive to play with the bike responsiveness under normal riding conditions, especially when two-up by switching between the two modes. Honestly, I haven't switched back to ECO within the last year or more. Once you have the power, you don't want to go back.
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Why? You don't have a first gen bike. Looking out for us Classic, FC (Fastest Color), and EA (Early Adopter) owners, Max? Not that we need the speed increase. We should probably be slowing our bikes down so we don't get hurt or speed off into another dimension we're so fast. Thanks for looking out for us, though. ;)
:thumbs:
Thanks Max!
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Group HUG for Max and Pussy
Max I believe he can install ECO as your standard mode then push the button for grunt mode, Incase you have that large KILLER Kitty with you and you need more grunt ;)
Since it is WINTER and I'm sure his work has slowed down , call for a group buy ? good time to send in your ECU for those of you who don't live in S Fl. ;D
I'm going to bike week in Daytona ...anyone else , we should meet somewhere , Hooters?
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If someone wants to work with Guhl on a group buy then by all means... I'll sticky it for the duration of the buy to keep it visible. We'll need to start a new thread for that.
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He should set up a temporary shop/kiosk in Daytona for the upcoming Bike Week and give us forum members a group buy discount. I bet he and we would both benefit very quickly from the crowds there.
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I'm in on a group buy if it happens.
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+1 :chugbeer: add me to any group buy. It would be the excuse I've been looking for/needing.