Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: theAmazingKickstand on November 20, 2013, 10:19:46 PM
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Hey all,
I'm going to adjust my valves over Thanksgiving and wanted to buy a shim kit. It seems that the kits come in roughly 1.70 -2.9 and then 3.0 to 3.9.
What sizes should I be expecting to use? Am I just not looking at the correct kits?
I adjusted valves on my Buell and all of them required 2.xx shims. I made the mistake of buying them individually from the Harley store and spent about $60 + wasted half the day getting to the store an back.
If someone has a link to what kit to order and where that would be great. I just looked on Amazon.
Also a link to the valve cover gasket and oil steaming leaky O-ring would be great too.
Thank You.
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I have been involved in shim changes on 3 different bikes and the installed shims were between 2.23 and 2.38.
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I believe I got a shim kit hot cams or something like that for my Kawasaki ZRX 1200, this kit is the same for all Concours.
I shimmed my 08 with it, no issues.
Check ebay, I got mine from there.
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The thinner kit.
The kit will probably work for you but remember, the kits do not contain all the sizes (there are shims available that are exactly half- way between the shim sizes in the kits) and I believe each kit only contians three of each size; it is possible that you may need more of the same size than the kit will provide. Not trying to talk you out of buying a kit, just pointing out possible results of doing it that way.
Now OFFTOPIC:
Does this thread title remind anyone besides me of the GREATEST FORUM THREAD OF ALL TIME? The Famous Haroldo and his 47 page valve adjusting thread? That thread had everything- thrills, chills, spills, two tows to the dealer, and was essentially endless. I miss Haroldo and I miss that thread. At the end of my life, I fully expect that thread to flash before my eyes..... well, maybe not flash but play out again in real time.... which will make me immortal I think. :rotflmao:
Brian
Hey all,
I'm going to adjust my valves over Thanksgiving and wanted to buy a shim kit. It seems that the kits come in roughly 1.70 -2.9 and then 3.0 to 3.9.
What sizes should I be expecting to use? Am I just not looking at the correct kits?
I adjusted valves on my Buell and all of them required 2.xx shims. I made the mistake of buying them individually from the Harley store and spent about $60 + wasted half the day getting to the store an back.
If someone has a link to what kit to order and where that would be great. I just looked on Amazon.
Also a link to the valve cover gasket and oil steaming leaky O-ring would be great too.
Thank You.
-
The thinner kit.
The kit will probably work for you but remember, the kits do not contain all the sizes (there are shims available that are exactly half- way between the shim sizes in the kits) and I believe each kit only contians three of each size; it is possible that you may need more of the same size than the kit will provide.
Very true. Shim kits normally have 3 shims in each size. If you have to pull cams to change shims you might as well change all of them so each valve is close to the loose edge. JakeWilson.com sells shims in half sizes for $1.49 each, I bought 3 each in the half sizes from 2.18 to 2.28 and a couple of extras in the full size in that range. I changed all 16 shims but was able to swap 10 of the OEM shims. I had a lot of unused shims but it wasn't that expensive and they fit most of the bikes with shim under bucket valve trains.
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JakeWilson.com sells shims in half sizes for $1.49 each, I bought 3 each in the half sizes from 2.18 to 2.28 and a couple of extras in the full size in that range. ...
I went to that site, and cannot find the shims you speak of for $1.50 each....
have a link?
with regards to correct shim sizes for the C14 (other bikes may not be as close as these are) the Hot Cams Kits just don't do the job, they are 90% out of the range you will be needing.
Your best bet is to swap shims at a Kaw dealer, or at a Honda dealer. They both have the correct increments to get you right to the edge without waste.
Start off by contacting both Kaw and Honda dealers, and speak directly to the man in charge of service, ask him nicely if they will swap shims with you...it works.
You will need to get in there and measure clearances on all valves, then remove the cams and measure each shim, replacing them in their original positions don't pull them all out at once, too much chance of horrendous mishaps doing that.
calculate the needed shim differences, and then figure which ones you can re-purpose and swap.
While you have each shim bucket out, also Mic the head thickness of them as they differ also, and swapping a bucket's position in some instances goes a long way to saving a shim....
it seams like it is simpler to buy a kit, but really it's a waste of time and money, as will will ALLWAYS have to get one that doesn't come in the kit.
for reference, here is my first shim map, showing shims and buckets swapped, and what needed to be replaced.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/MAN_OF_BLUES/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2896805850015463693biYSzi_ph.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/MAN_OF_BLUES/media/old%201/COG%20TECHNICAL%20PHOTOS/2896805850015463693biYSzi_ph.jpg.html)
best of luck...
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JakeWilson.com sold shims (at that time) in half sizes for $1.49 each, but it looks like current price is now $1.99 a shim....still a pretty good buy for me since the local dealer charges $8.00 a shim, does not carry half sizes, and will not exchange shims.
http://www.jakewilson.com/All-Vehicles/3998/26634/Pro-X-Valve-Shim (http://www.jakewilson.com/All-Vehicles/3998/26634/Pro-X-Valve-Shim)
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Yes, Brian, it certainly does...
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JakeWilson.com sold shims (at that time) in half sizes for $1.49 each, but it looks like current price is now $1.99 a shim....still a pretty good buy for me since the local dealer charges $8.00 a shim and will not exchange sizes.
http://www.jakewilson.com/All-Vehicles/3998/26634/Pro-X-Valve-Shim (http://www.jakewilson.com/All-Vehicles/3998/26634/Pro-X-Valve-Shim)
Thanks for the link!!!! I selected a 2011 KAWASAKI ZX14R as my bike and the site provided the 9.48 O.D. (which is the size of the Kaw shims).
Here's the link to the 2011 KAWASAKI ZX14R Shim page on Jake Wilson:
http://www.jakewilson.com/p/3998/26634/Pro-X-Valve-Shim?v=10019 (http://www.jakewilson.com/p/3998/26634/Pro-X-Valve-Shim?v=10019)
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COOL!!
it's also nice they supply shims in the .025mm increments, and actually go down to 1.20mm, Kaw only shows the shims going down to 1.75mm for the C14.... not that I think we would ever need to go that far without doing a valve job....heheheh
thanks for that link!
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Thank you all. Is the consesus that I should just get my measurements and drive to the Concours store? (which is relatively close)
Ordering individually for $2 would be great but this is my daily commuter so it has to be running by Monday. Hopefully the dealers open that weekend.
Whos gotta link to the that poor souls valve adjustment fiasco?
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Thank you all. Is the consesus that I should just get my measurements and drive to the Concours store? (which is relatively close)
Ordering individually for $2 would be great but this is my daily commuter so it has to be running by Monday. Hopefully the dealers open that weekend.
I would not only find out if the dealer was open that weekend, I would find out of they carry half size shims. I needed 8 half sized shims for my valve adjustment and 5 of those were ones that I purchased in advance. As it turned out, I broke even dollar wise on buying the shims in advance but I had all the sizes I needed.....and a lot of extra shims for the next valve adjustment (there are several of us using the same shim kit, we replace what we use from the kit).
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I believe you will find that there is actually a fairly narrow range of shims used on a C-14, now where near the range of typical kits. I believe you could order, say, 4 of each of perhaps 4 shim sizes and have a pretty good shot at having enough shims on hand. Please understand that that is only a reasonable prediction, not any type of guarantee.
If by 'poor soul' and 'fiasco' you mean Haroldo, I am afraid that went to digital heaven when this forum was born again. And it was not a fiasco, it was much, much worse, and better, and funnier than that. Truly epic. I miss Haroldo- he is the stuff of legend.... :-) Superman and Batman are merely imaginary entities while Haroldo, greater than any mere superhero, is a real, flesh- and- blood "doer of things". And once seen, the 'things' and the 'do' simply cannot be forgotten. ;D
Brian
Thank you all. Is the consesus that I should just get my measurements and drive to the Concours store? (which is relatively close)
Ordering individually for $2 would be great but this is my daily commuter so it has to be running by Monday. Hopefully the dealers open that weekend.
Whos gotta link to the that poor souls valve adjustment fiasco?
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All hail, Haroldo! :hail:
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Haroldo, a true legend. Home grown and not forgotten. I wonder if he is still researching the poor soul who received his bike without oil?
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"If you have to pull cams to change shims you might as well change all of them so each valve is close to the loose edge. "
So the clearance on these engines never goes loose? It only goes tight?
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We chat ever now and then. Last story he told me involved a [Triumph I think], some bent crash bars, gasoline, a phone book and a torch. Of course it did not go well or directly but the twists and turns you just could not believe. His neighbors must live either awe or fear- perhaps a kind of terrified awe. The writers at 20th Century- Fox got nothin' on Haroldo, and I truly mean that as a compliment.
Remember when he lost the dowel from the valve cover and had a little breakdown? I said 'Haroldo, you are in a garage, right? The bike is in the garage and so is the valve cover. Hence, the dowel MUST be somewhere in the garage.... When he finally found it I remember the sun breaking out all over the US of A. Ah.... good times. :-)
Never met him in person but would consider it a personal honor to do so. Any scars incurred during said meeting would only be icing on the cake. "Oh, the eyepatch? Well, that was from the time I was helping Haroldo....." :rotflmao:
Brian
Haroldo, a true legend. Home grown and not forgotten. I wonder if he is still researching the poor soul who received his bike without oil?
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Not a rule but probably overall, yeah, they get tighter. Some will get looser (easy boys!). Depends on whether the cam surface and follower wear faster or slower than the valve face and valve seat. It is not predictable outside of setting some odds.
Brian
"If you have to pull cams to change shims you might as well change all of them so each valve is close to the loose edge. "
So the clearance on these engines never goes loose? It only goes tight?
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"If you have to pull cams to change shims you might as well change all of them so each valve is close to the loose edge. "
So the clearance on these engines never goes loose? It only goes tight?
Many, many moons ago when the metal hardness was pretty inconsistent and valve adjustments were lock and screw with very small surface areas, the valves could get loose and it was pretty common to hear a ticking sound when they did....but they had to be pretty loose before you could hear the tick. Modern engines have very consistent metal hardness and when using a shim under bucket valve adjustment, have very large contact surfaces, so it is really rare for a valve to loosen and a ticking valve is almost unheard of. Loose valves generally are not considered a serious risk because of the built in early warning system (the tick) but anyone having a valve significantly loosen probably should check the camshaft to see if it is past the service limit and/or there is some other reason it need to be replaced.
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Yep, all of that.
And then add the fact that once lead was removed from fuel, the valve faces and valve seats had to be made much harder and more wear resistant (lead is a wonderful extreme pressure lubricant as well as being highly toxic). So the entire valve train has become much, much less subject to wear of any kind in the last 20, 30 years or so than older vehicles. Put that altogether and it ends up meaning there there really is very little wear anywhere in the valve train of a modern vehicle.
When was the last time anyone heard of anyone needing a 'valve job'? It has gone by the wayside due to the tremendous longevity of modern valve trains.
Modern engines really and truly are remarkable, especially in comparison to earlier engines. And I don't mean Model T engines either but the engines of the 50's through the 70's. Combined with modern lubricants and fuel, it is almost to the point where stuff just does not wear out.
Brian
Many, many moons ago when the metal hardness was pretty inconsistent and valve adjustments were lock and screw with very small surface areas, the valves could get loose and it was pretty common to hear a ticking sound when they did....but they had to be pretty loose before you could hear the tick. Modern engines have very consistent metal hardness and when using a shim under bucket valve adjustment, have very large contact surfaces, so it is really rare for a valve to loosen and a ticking valve is almost unheard of. Loose valves generally are not considered a serious risk because of the built in early warning system (the tick) but anyone having a valve significantly loosen probably should check the camshaft to see if it is past the service limit and/or there is some other reason it need to be replaced.
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The Hot Cams Kits just don't do the job, they are 90% out of the range you will be needing.
it seams like it is simpler to buy a kit, but really it's a waste of time and money, as will will ALLWAYS have to get one that doesn't come in the kit.
Hey MOB,
I have to disagree on the Hot Cams kits being a waste of money...they're actually quite handy if you do valve checks and adjusts often enough. You can buy two different range kits, and if you want you can buy specific sizes in refill quantities.
I used to try to adjust valves to some sort of level of perfection that wasn't actually required....it was a personal preference, nothing more, but it became increasingly more and more frustrating waiting on specific shims from the Kawasaki dealer with a set of cams laying on my bench that I wanted to put back in the darn bike. It's nice that the OEM shims come in the more refined 0.001" increments, but they're not always needed. Our local dealer(s) don't stock all the sizes...just a small handful.
Since the valve specs on most bikes are in the 4-5 thou range, the Hot Cams shims, which are in 0.002" increments, will be just fine for adjustments, assuming the valve is at the edge of the spec.
In my experience, I usually find between 4-8 valves that can be adjusted. Usually, half of them can be adjusted by simply moving existing shims around. In the end, I rarely ever need more than 3-4 "new" shims from a kit (or the dealer, whatever).
To add to this...I have made the second valve adjustment on two Kawasakis (one Z1000, and one C-14) that had previously had their valves adjusted at two separate Kawasaki dealers. Guess what I found inside them? Hot Cams shims...lol. No joke. (<---BDF likes this:)/
All I'm trying to say is...don't dismiss them as being completely useless...if I can find a shim or two that I need in the kit, so that I can snap the valve cover back on the bike in the same day...then having that kit is like money in the bank for me, and makes for a much more seamless job. A valve check and adjustment is a big enough job without having the bike down for several days while you track down the shims you need.
Do enough valve adjustments, and eventually you'll end up with a pretty decent supply of various sizes...assuming that you keep the OEM shims you remove, and refill the Hot Cams shims as you run out.
As always, YMMV.
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?? Not sure what you mean here but I have no opinion on any shims. They are merely hardened discs of metal that anyone can make (any manufacturer). No difference what brand as long as the thickness is what is needed. Nothing wrong with Hot Cams or any other brand of shim.
Brian
<snip>
To add to this...I have made the second valve adjustment on two Kawasakis (one Z1000, and one C-14) that had previously had their valves adjusted at two separate Kawasaki dealers. Guess what I found inside them? Hot Cams shims...lol. No joke. (<---BDF likes this:)/
<snip>
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?? Not sure what you mean here...
I was pointing at the "No Joke" part...lol, nothing to do with you and your opinion of shims at all...lol.
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Ah, gotcha'.
:)
Brian
I was pointing at the "No Joke" part...lol, nothing to do with you and your opinion of shims at all...lol.
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So, those of you that have adjusted valves on this engine have only seen them go tight? Has anyone seen them go loose too?
On my Honda Civic, I've been told to just run it and not worry about it, as the valves go loose and you'll hear them if they are out of spec.
My way of thinking is that stems, cams, and tappet surfaces wear increases tolerance. Valve heads and seats wear decreases tolerances. Generally, due to the specific valve train, one or the other tends to create tolerance changes primarily in one direction, but some engines seem to go both loose and tight on different valves, showing a balance in wear surfaces.
Not that it really matters, but I can't help but want to know more about this engine, as I need to work on mine soon enough.
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I can't remember on the C-14's I have done...I'd have to dig out the shim maps, but for example, I just finished a 2008 Suzuki GSXR 750 last week, and found one exhaust valve a full 0.001" outside of the tight spec, and one intake valve all the way to the loose end of the spec.
Seems to me that the exhaust valves are usually all on the tighter side, and the intakes are more often where you'll find a loose clearance. I can't say why...just thinking back is all.
Maybe somebody else can chime into why this happens.
I'm not saying that it always does...but it's somewhat common IIRC.
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There is no rule, but a basis for valves tightening rather than loosening as they wear.
If an engine is used fairly lightly, the wear does seem to be about even between the valve train mating components (increasing clearance) and the valve seat and valve face (decreasing clearance). But, the harder an engine is used, i.e. putting out a lot of power at high RPM's, the valve train wear stays about constant but the valve seat and valve face wear increase due to contact speed and heat increase. So, the trend is generally toward balanced movement (no change in clearance) and tightening clearances.
A gentle correction if I may: the space left in things so they fit is clearance, not tolerance. Tolerance is the allowable change in something like clearance. For example: the clearance on valve lash may be 0.006" to 0.008", and in that example the tolerance would be 0.002" or the total allowable change in clearance.
Brian
So, those of you that have adjusted valves on this engine have only seen them go tight? Has anyone seen them go loose too?
On my Honda Civic, I've been told to just run it and not worry about it, as the valves go loose and you'll hear them if they are out of spec.
My way of thinking is that stems, cams, and tappet surfaces wear increases tolerance. Valve heads and seats wear decreases tolerances. Generally, due to the specific valve train, one or the other tends to create tolerance changes primarily in one direction, but some engines seem to go both loose and tight on different valves, showing a balance in wear surfaces.
Not that it really matters, but I can't help but want to know more about this engine, as I need to work on mine soon enough.
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That also makes sense, as exhaust valves run far hotter than intake valves and the seats and faces should wear quicker, tightening the CLEARANCE.
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I like this site a lot. On the Buell site this thread would already have turned Democrat Vs. Republican. I like this tech talk quite a bit. Really informed people here too.
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Well, the reason the exhaust valves have more clearance is because they get much hotter and therefore expand a lot more. Remember, we are setting the valve lash cold but it is actually used when the bike is at normal running temps. or even higher.
Again, as power increases, so too does the temperature difference between the intake and exhaust valves. As the exhaust valves are always hotter, they will always be longer in proportion to their cold temperature; expansion is a direct result of temperature. So the greater clearance on the exhausts is to allow them more room for expansion.
Now for the odd part: usually if a valve gets to zero clearance or less (it can be less if there is a gap in the valve train throughout it's rotary travel) a valve will never seat (known as 'hanging a valve'). As the intake valve cools itself much more by using contact with the valve seat than the exhaust valve does, when both valves hang open, it is usually the intake valve that ends up burned. You would not think so but that is typically what happens. It is an odd world.
Brian
That also makes sense, as exhaust valves run far hotter than intake valves and the seats and faces should wear quicker, tightening the CLEARANCE.
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Thanks for everyones replies.
After some thought I think I'll be getting rid of this bike as is and getting a brand new one (hopefully)