Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: x9rider on September 16, 2013, 07:28:51 AM
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Hey,
I just returned from a riding vacation to Pennsylvania, and learned the hard way that the C14 is very top heavy at no speed or parking lot speed. The center of gravity is wayyy higher than what I am used to, and came to a stop on the road in front of my bro-inlaws house with a 30 pound bag on the passenger seat, and turned the wheel almost to lock with the intention of pulling in his driveway, since I was on the close side of the road........the bike went down like a ton of bricks. I did my best to slow the descent with everything I had, but there was no way I could save her. F'd up my right leg in the process. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...........
The trip went as planned, and I am trying my best to REMEMBER to do 3 point turns. I almost had another incident in Penn., again in a gas station parking lot, again on the right side, but this time I was able to hold her from fully going down, and a buddy was able to rush to help me put her upright. Lesson #2. Three point turns, especially to the right for me, need to be a way of life. I consider myself an advanced and very experienced rider, so this is not only embarrassing, it is a very humbling experience, since this is pure amateur rider stuff.
I have to order some frame sliders today, as well as the rear side fairing, the lower unpainted part, and the right pannier cover. Guess I will be browsing the site today for the best frame sliders to get for the eventuality that I will probably dump her again in the future, next time I have a no speed brain fart.
Other than that, I absolutely love the c14!
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Same thing happened to me the other week. I have been riding for 35 yrs. Just got away from me and couldnt save it. Just so embarassing.
Thankfully I had the MC Enterprises Canyon Cages on. NO Damage, just a little scrape on the bottom of the cage.
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Same here. I was near the end of a long day trip so I was tired. I stopped for fuel, then wanted to move the bike away from the pumps. I had an Airhawk on the seat and wasn't used to it. Plus my Aerostitch riding pants had slipped down to the point that I could barely reach the ground with my toes. All that plus a full load in the top case and stuff strapped to the seat meant that when it started to go over it was a losing fight. The wrestling match lasted about 30 seconds and it went down softly, but crap, it still sucks.
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Been there, done that.
Same thing happened to me the other week. I have been riding for 35 yrs. Just got away from me and couldnt save it. Just so embarassing.
Thankfully I had the MC Enterprises Canyon Cages on. NO Damage, just a little scrape on the bottom of the cage.
+1... check them out.
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:'(
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I had a slow layover once on a trip with some buddies. Gravel parking lot and a bit of a bank downhill to the right as I was making the slow right turn. Let me just remind you of one rule to remember in the case of a slow turn ... ...
Your right hand and that brake lever are your enemy!!
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More like "tall and heavy", no stopping it once it is heading down.
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I just returned from a riding vacation to Pennsylvania, and learned the hard way that the C14 is very top heavy at no speed or parking lot speed.
Yeah, now try it with a 26.5" inseam like me and let me know how much more exponentially heavy it is!
so this is not only embarrassing, it is a very humbling experience, since this is pure amateur rider stuff.
Been there, done that. Thank God I had the Canyon Cages. It was so embarrassing, I was at a complete stop when it happened, on 64, waiting on the damn tunnel. Was so hot I was a little dizzy, tipped a bit to far (which wasn't very far) when adjusting jacket and slow-motion-no-stopping-it. It gets amazingly heavy, VERY fast. Even more embarrassing was that I could not get it back up without help (that is a first for me on ANY bike).
I have to order some frame sliders today, as well as the rear side fairing, the lower unpainted part, and the right pannier cover. Guess I will be browsing the site today for the best frame sliders to get for the eventuality that I will probably dump her again in the future, next time I have a no speed brain fart.
Canyon cages...
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Been there, done that. Thank God I had the Canyon Cages. It was so embarrassing, I was at a complete stop when it happened, on 64, waiting on the damn tunnel. Was so hot I was a little dizzy, tipped a bit to far (which wasn't very far) when adjusting jacket and slow-motion-no-stopping-it. It gets amazingly heavy, VERY fast. Even more embarrassing was that I could not get it back up without help (that is a first for me on ANY bike).
I totally agree. It sucks to ask for help, which I needed on both occasions. I'm not a small guy, and this bike is a total bear when its down on its side or in the process of going down ( the second time, I managed to stop it halfway down but, I didn't have the physical strength to upright it).
Even worse is getting it partway up from the ground somehow, only to run out of steam and have to lay it down again, so i've decided to not be a hero and ask for help when trying to right the bike.
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More like "tall and heavy", no stopping it once it is heading down.
Sure you can...you can break it's fall with your body like I did when it fell on me in the garage. Respect the bike!
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+1 on the Canyon Cages
saved my bacon 8)
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I had a slow layover once on a trip with some buddies. Gravel parking lot and a bit of a bank downhill to the right as I was making the slow right turn. Let me just remind you of one rule to remember in the case of a slow turn ... ...
Your right hand and that brake lever are your enemy!!
Here's my Golden Rule; anytime traveling below 10-5 mph, abandon front brake use, lock your fingers around the throttle grip (to resist the temptation to grab the front brake) and solely use rear brake. Worst that will happen is your rear wheel will skid which is much easier to recoup than a front wheel slide/lowside slide :doh:
Imagine all the situations: oily patches at stops/red light, sand, gravel, low speed manoeuvers, parking lot u-turns, ...
Rear brake is a much more efficient mean to control forward motion at slow speed than the throttle. Maintain throttle, keep clutch at friction point and modulate rear brake; you'll have speed control just like driving a Chevy PowerGlide 8)
The only way to complete a slow speed U-turn is by maintaining forward thrust and this where rear brake modulation comes in. No forward thrust, bike falls. Too much you overshoot the turn and hit the curb. Proper modulation = control of speed and turn radius. Combine this with proper vision, looking towards the exit of the turn, not the asphalt two inches in front of your nose.
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Sure you can...you can break it's fall with your body like I did when it fell on me in the garage. Respect the bike!
Haha, that's the spirit!
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I live on a road that's about 4 inches deep of just sand about a quarter mile long...every trip to the blacktop is a refresher class in rear brake and clutch control.
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had to use my 32 inseam a few time fully load and wife on it wondering whats happening. Manage to save it from falling
now I learned that throttle is your best friend. The last times i was in thoses tricky situations, i used the throttle to step forward and get the bike in a stable position again. Wife still asking whats happening
;D
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I live on a road that's about 4 inches deep of just sand about a quarter mile long...every trip to the blacktop is a refresher class in rear brake and clutch control.
I live on a 1/8 mile loose gravel lane. I use an old dirt bike trick. Simply stand up on the pegs. Your center of gravity is lowered since your weight is on the pegs rather than the seat. Improves stability immensely!
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I live on a 1/8 mile loose gravel lane. I use an old dirt bike trick. Simply stand up on the pegs. Your center of gravity is lowered since your weight is on the pegs rather than the seat. Improves stability immensely!
Your center of gravity is lower when standing on the pegs? :o
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C of G of the bike stays the same. Riders C of G rises when standing on the pegs. Control points shift from handle bars/seat to handle bars/pegs giving quicker control of bike since you are able to move bike independent of rider.
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C of G of the bike stays the same. Riders C of G rises when standing on the pegs. Control points shift from handle bars/seat to handle bars/pegs giving quicker control of bike since you are able to move bike independent of rider.
Heck with oil threads....we now have a physics thread....awesome!
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Heck with oil threads....we now have a physics thread....awesome!
f = ma :)
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top block sliders ordered. The canyon bars just don't do anything for me.
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f = ma :)
Fig Newton's Laws
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion)
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top block sliders ordered. The canyon bars just don't do anything for me.
They will do something for you in a hard fall over. I suggest you order/install the McE [canyon] small rears to go along with the Top Blocks if you want real protection for the bags to go along with the great looks of the Top Blocks.
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top block sliders ordered.
8) :thumbs:
Grats! :chugbeer:
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C of G of the bike stays the same. Riders C of G rises when standing on the pegs. Control points shift from handle bars/seat to handle bars/pegs giving quicker control of bike since you are able to move bike independent of rider.
Carried COG is indeed lowered and your weight becomes suspended weight as the knees and arms flex to absorb the bikes undulations ;D Seated the bikes suspension is forced to counteract itself and the riders weight, with said weight locked onto the seat, which is higher than the pegs. If a rider were to lock their legs, arms, back, and head when standing then the COG has risen. Yes, I have seen many students lock themselves when upright, they just don't trust the technique and fear sets in, causing extreme tension. Simple physics :o
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If you raise the mass, your body by standing, your bodys' C of G has to also raise. How could this not be?
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Carried COG is indeed lowered and your weight becomes suspended weight as the knees and arms flex to absorb the bikes undulations ;D Seated the bikes suspension is forced to counteract itself and the riders weight, with said weight locked onto the seat, which is higher than the pegs. If a rider were to lock their legs, arms, back, and head when standing then the COG has risen. Yes, I have seen many students lock themselves when upright, they just don't trust the technique and fear sets in, causing extreme tension. Simple physics :o
If you raise the mass, your body by standing, your bodys' C of G has to also raise. How could this not be?
Sorry C but you're wrong. The riders weight may be somewhat decoupled from the bike but the CG of the 'system' is higher when the rider stands on the pegs. Simple physics. ;)
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They will do something for you in a hard fall over. I suggest you order/install the McE [canyon] small rears to go along with the Top Blocks if you want real protection for the bags to go along with the great looks of the Top Blocks.
If I go down at speed, i've got bigger problems than whether my sliders will protect the bike or not. This is specifically for tipovers when stationary or slightly moving, where I am breaking the fall with my hands on the bars the whole time, and my feet planted on the ground. With the main blocks and the TB rear sliders, this should work in the specific situation I am buying them for.
I looked at the hard bag protection that the rear canyon bars offer, and they definitely do the job, but I just don't like the look at all. My issues with the look may change down the road, but for now, I can't get over the appearance of them
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If I go down at speed, i've got bigger problems than whether my sliders will protect the bike or not. This is specifically for tipovers when stationary or slightly moving, where I am breaking the fall with my hands on the bars the whole time, and my feet planted on the ground. With the main blocks and the TB rear sliders, this should work in the specific situation I am buying them for.
I looked at the hard bag protection that the rear canyon bars offer, and they definitely do the job, but I just don't like the look at all. My issues with the look may change down the road, but for now, I can't get over the appearance of them
I brought the rear bag protector bars with my Canyon Cages. I didn't install them, because i didn't like the look without the bags on (I rarely have the bags on).
So Of course by bike tipped over with the bags on one day. There was a Oh @#$$ moment. But when I righted the bike and inspected. The bags never touched the ground. The fromt cages kept enough clearance. I may have just got lucky, but just saying the rears (In my case) can be left off.
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If I go down at speed, i've got bigger problems than whether my sliders will protect the bike or not. This is specifically for tipovers when stationary or slightly moving, where I am breaking the fall with my hands on the bars the whole time, and my feet planted on the ground. With the main blocks and the TB rear sliders, this should work in the specific situation I am buying them for.
I looked at the hard bag protection that the rear canyon bars offer, and they definitely do the job, but I just don't like the look at all. My issues with the look may change down the road, but for now, I can't get over the appearance of them
Here's to hoping that your bike only tips over in the specific situations that you are buying protection for. :chugbeer:
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Sorry C but you're wrong. The riders weight may be somewhat decoupled from the bike but the CG of the 'system' is higher when the rider stands on the pegs. Simple physics. ;)
Just where is the weight being supported/carried? In a static, parked position you would be correct, but once in motion the changing dynamics and suspension of weight lowers the COG ;D
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Just where is the weight being supported/carried? In a static, parked position you would be correct, but once in motion the changing dynamics and suspension of weight lowers the COG ;D
Say what? You're saying that at rest the CG moves up when the rider stands on the pegs but once in motion the CG moves down?
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Yes ;D The weight in effect becomes live weight. Seated the weight is dead ;) I wish I had some kinda eloquent engineering degree to 'splain it better, what I do know is that I can seperate my weight from the bikes weight when in motion to varying degrees. The weight being carried by the bike is down low on the pegs.
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I'm not all that good at explaining things either, just ask my wife. :o
Since we don't have Bill Nye the science guy as a member perhaps Brian will be along soon with some insight as to why I'm right and you are not. ;)
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Never argue with the retired guy, he has all the time in the world to argue ;) :o 8) I think Brian is working on incorporating KIPASS into an FJR at the moment :-X
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Here's to hoping that your bike only tips over in the specific situations that you are buying protection for. :chugbeer:
I hope so too. There is no question that the canyon bars do exactly what they are meant to do, it's just me with my appearance issues that are stopping me from going in that direction. I am trying to keep the bike as close to the "unprotected" look as possible.
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I hope so too. There is no question that the canyon bars do exactly what they are meant to do, it's just me with my appearance issues that are stopping me from going in that direction. I am trying to keep the bike as close to the "unprotected" look as possible.
I understand that completely. There's no doubt that the bike looks WAY better without the CCs than it does with them.
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To avoid the bathroom bar look I just added the fronts, painted to suit my likes. Blend in nicely. I have no idea how well they work and hope to never find out.
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There's no doubt that the bike looks WAY better without the CCs than it does with them.
+1... :goodpost:
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Been there, done that regarding the Fudger:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/FJRwithKiPasshelp.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/BDF08012008/media/FJRwithKiPasshelp.jpg.html)
Sure it ran better, looked better but even KiPass couldn't do much about the lack of the sixth gear....
Youse guys- arguing about standing up on a motorcycle.... but the short answer is you are both right.
The physics part is where Conrad et al. are correct. Standing up moves the COG of the entire vehicle up. It also increases the moment, which would seem to make the bike harder to move but really doesn't because this is where Chet is right-
The word he used is great- uncoupled. Standing or even lifting up enough so the only thing touching the bike are your hands and feet really do uncouple the rider from the bike so the bike can 'dance' under the rider and make faster and smaller corrections when riding over rough ground. It even works on a pig as heavy as a C-14 when going over a gravel road. The observation is correct but the application of the 'it lowers the COG' or 'it lowers the effective COG' is not; it works but not because the COG moves but rather because the bike and rider are much more free to move independently and each can move faster, again allowing the bike to bump and bounce along without having to rock the rider back and forth also. It also gives the rider a better ride just because he / she does not have to jostle back and forth with each small movement of the bike.
I have seen the 'lowering the COG' idea before, even printed in a magazine with line drawings to show how it works. Some even show that when riding on an angled or banked surface, one should stand and then put all of his / her weight on the outside (where the ground is lower) peg to 'drive the tires into the bank'. Somewhere in merry old England, Newton is spinning in his grave and thinking 'buy them books, they eat the pages.' Standing up on a motorcycle moves the overall COG up.... always (it IS a rule after all). Putting all your weight on one peg, without changing the angle of the bike, does nothing. Not to worry though, such terribly mistaken ideas and even worse, much worse, have actually been patented. Sometimes it is really hard to spot the rule (read: physical laws of the universe we live in) violation right away. At least it is not 'as wrong' as thinking KiPass is not wonderful and the answer to all the world's problems....
Brian
Never argue with the retired guy, he has all the time in the world to argue ;) :o 8) I think Brian is working on incorporating KIPASS into an FJR at the moment :-X
I'm not all that good at explaining things either, just ask my wife. :o
Since we don't have Bill Nye the science guy as a member perhaps Brian will be along soon with some insight as to why I'm right and you are not. ;)
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Snip...
Youse guys- arguing about standing up on a motorcycle.... but the short answer is you are both right.
The physics part is where Conrad et al. are correct. Standing up moves the COG of the entire vehicle up. It also increases the moment, which would seem to make the bike harder to move but really doesn't because this is where Chet is right-
The word he used is great- uncoupled. Standing or even lifting up enough so the only thing touching the bike are your hands and feet really do uncouple the rider from the bike so the bike can 'dance' under the rider and make faster and smaller corrections when riding over rough ground. It even works on a pig as heavy as a C-14 when going over a gravel road. The observation is correct but the application of the 'it lowers the COG' or 'it lowers the effective COG' is not; it works but not because the COG moves but rather because the bike and rider are much more free to move independently and each can move faster, again allowing the bike to bump and bounce along without having to rock the rider back and forth also. It also gives the rider a better ride just because he / she does not have to jostle back and forth with each small movement of the bike.
I have seen the 'lowering the COG' idea before, even printed in a magazine with line drawings to show how it works. Some even show that when riding on an angled or banked surface, one should stand and then put all of his / her weight on the outside (where the ground is lower) peg to 'drive the tires into the bank'. Somewhere in merry old England, Newton is spinning in his grave and thinking 'buy them books, they eat the pages.' Standing up on a motorcycle moves the overall COG up.... always (it IS a rule after all). Putting all your weight on one peg, without changing the angle of the bike, does nothing. Not to worry though, such terribly mistaken ideas and even worse, much worse, have actually been patented. Sometimes it is really hard to spot the rule (read: physical laws of the universe we live in) violation right away. At least it is not 'as wrong' as thinking KiPass is not wonderful and the answer to all the world's problems....
Brian
The short answer is that G and I are right and the retired guy is wrong. ;)
I said that the CG moves upward when the rider stands on the pegs and it was I who used the word 'uncoupled'.
What do I win?
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Dignity and self- respect.... priceless.
:-)
Brian
The short answer is that G and I are right and the retired guy is wrong. ;)
I said that the CG moves upward when the rider stands on the pegs and it was I who used the word 'uncoupled'.
What do I win?
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Dignity and self- respect.... priceless.
:-)
Brian
:rotflmao:
:thumbs:
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I brought the rear bag protector bars with my Canyon Cages. I didn't install them, because i didn't like the look without the bags on (I rarely have the bags on).
So Of course by bike tipped over with the bags on one day. There was a Oh @#$$ moment. But when I righted the bike and inspected. The bags never touched the ground. The fromt cages kept enough clearance. I may have just got lucky, but just saying the rears (In my case) can be left off.
Either the Canyon fronts or Top Blocks *will* prevent smashing the bags *if* the pavement is perfectly flat and it doesn't go down hard, and etc. But having the rears adds additional protection in many more situations AND helps prevent the bike from cantilevering over, which will also smash the mirrors and possibly other top stuff when only the fronts are present.
In my case (and in many peoples' cases), the bags never come off except for deep cleaning or maybe at a motel.... certainly always on when riding. In that situation, they look fine (the rear McE bars blend very well... the front Canyons are quite visible). But you are both right that the rear McE bars look very odd when no bags are on.
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I'm not sure why I'm foolish enough to join in on the CofG discussion but here goes anyway. I agree with Brian and just want to add that the word everyone is looking for is inertia. The inertia of the bike is reduced when you stand up thereby decoupling your mass from mass of the bike. It makes it much easier to move the bike around and change direction or attitude.
The center of gravity of a system is simply the addition of the CofG of all the components of the system by using a weighted average. Let's say the CofG of the bike is 25 inches off the ground and it weighs 650 pounds. Let's say the CofG of the rider, when seated is 40 inches and they weigh 200 pounds. The CofG of the two of them will be: (650*25 + 200*40)/850 = 28.53 When the rider stands up his CofG will increase to about 60 inches. Substituting that for 40 in the above example yields a system CofG of 33.23 inches.
You can plug in whatever numbers you want but the CofG of the system will always be higher when standing than sitting.
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The short answer is that G and I are right and the retired guy is wrong. ;)
I said that the CG moves upward when the rider stands on the pegs and it was I who used the word 'uncoupled'.
What do I win?
As a way of saving face-you said "decoupled" :P And I'm still retired ;D
Would it be safe to say that the COG is dynamic when standing?
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Only if it's moving.
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Only if it's moving.
As in riding? So it would be safe to say the overall COG is "shifting" as we ride, sometimes lower, sometimes higher. What counts is what works, physics be damned :) I sure do wish I was better at words, speaking, understanding, and written as I know for a simple fact that the carried weight is lower when yer on the pegs as my ass is some 32 inches higher than my feet ;D ;D ;D
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No, the center of gravity is static unless something is moving up / down (easy boys!) rather than forward.
Now when the bike leans, the C.O.G. definitely moves and it gets lower because both the rider and the bike get lower. The way to achieve the lowest possible C.O.G. is to lay the bike down which is what I think some people are doing on the road occasionally- not 'crashing' but 'lowering the C.O.G.' in an effort to.... yeah, this just ain't gonna' work.
How about this: The teacher calls on Little Johnny to use the word definitely in a sentence. He appears a bit surprised and then asks her if farts have lumps in them. She responds 'Goodness, no!'. He says: "Then I definitely just XXXX my pants."
There ya' go Chet, the best out for you that I can provide.... If physics don't work for ya', confuse and misdirect them.... ;D
Brian
As a way of saving face-you said "decoupled" :P And I'm still retired ;D
Would it be safe to say that the COG is dynamic when standing?
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With all the Fu---- rain we are having this summer my back road area, 2.5 ac. has turned into a mush , wiggle, OMG will I make it type ride :censored: :censored: :censored:
Cold front comming hopefully will STOP this rain 1, 2, 3, 4 inches per day :o been hear 28 years never have seen rain like this :censored:
Will try standing on pegs , If I crash, I will FIND YOU ;)
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As a way of saving face-you said "decoupled" :P And I'm still retired ;D
Would it be safe to say that the COG is dynamic when standing?
uh huh. :)
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I'm not sure why I'm foolish enough to join in on the CofG discussion but here goes anyway. I agree with Brian and just want to add that the word everyone is looking for is inertia. The inertia of the bike is reduced when you stand up thereby decoupling your mass from mass of the bike. It makes it much easier to move the bike around and change direction or attitude.
The center of gravity of a system is simply the addition of the CofG of all the components of the system by using a weighted average. Let's say the CofG of the bike is 25 inches off the ground and it weighs 650 pounds. Let's say the CofG of the rider, when seated is 40 inches and they weigh 200 pounds. The CofG of the two of them will be: (650*25 + 200*40)/850 = 28.53 When the rider stands up his CofG will increase to about 60 inches. Substituting that for 40 in the above example yields a system CofG of 33.23 inches.
You can plug in whatever numbers you want but the CofG of the system will always be higher when standing than sitting.
Are you sure that you mean to say inertia and not momentum? ;)
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Look guys, I'm going to have to lock this thread if you keep mucking it up with facts on physics. It's making my brane hurt and I don't like that when it happens.
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Maybe we should post some 'top heavy' pics instead?
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You first.
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Let me sharpen up the sword a bit...
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New thread?
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Let me sharpen up the sword a bit...
I guess that answers my question. :o
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Are you sure that you mean to say inertia and not momentum?
Yes I meant inertia. Inertia is the property of a body which resists change in velocity, acceleration or direction. A large inertia makes it hard to change the state of a body, whether that body is in motion or stationary.
Momentum is mass times velocity. You can increase your momemtun by either increasing weight or velocity or both. And momentum is conserved so if you run into another biker of the same weight and stop, they should take off at the same speed you were going when you hit them. Of course frictional effects make it all not work exactly like that, but pool players know how it works on the pool table.
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Yes I meant inertia. Inertia is the property of a body which resists change in velocity, acceleration or direction. A large inertia makes it hard to change the state of a body, whether that body is in motion or stationary.
Momentum is mass times velocity. You can increase your momemtun by either increasing weight or velocity or both. And momentum is conserved so if you run into another biker of the same weight and stop, they should take off at the same speed you were going when you hit them. Of course frictional effects make it all not work exactly like that, but pool players know how it works on the pool table.
Unless the collision is inelastic... :o
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Maybe we should post some 'top heavy' pics instead?
Like this?
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/fkjsdfiew.jpg) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/jaywilcox/media/fkjsdfiew.jpg.html)
Or do you mean like this? :-\
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/Zuzanna_bouncing.gif) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/jaywilcox/media/Zuzanna_bouncing.gif.html)
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or this?
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y462/staffpicks/Animated_GIFs/sDZCnjz.gif) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/staffpicks/media/Animated_GIFs/sDZCnjz.gif.html)
or this?
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y462/staffpicks/Animated_GIFs/clothes.gif) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/staffpicks/media/Animated_GIFs/clothes.gif.html)
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Motorcycles, physics, elephant tossing and breasts..... this thread has it all! Well, almost all:
KiPass Rocks!
Now I think we have the ultimate thread.
Brian
or this?
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y462/staffpicks/Animated_GIFs/sDZCnjz.gif) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/staffpicks/media/Animated_GIFs/sDZCnjz.gif.html)
or this?
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y462/staffpicks/Animated_GIFs/clothes.gif) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/staffpicks/media/Animated_GIFs/clothes.gif.html)
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Like this?
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/fkjsdfiew.jpg) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/jaywilcox/media/fkjsdfiew.jpg.html)
Not to introduce yet another variable into this discussion, but that seems more 'middle heavy'.
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Not to introduce yet another variable into this discussion, but that seems more 'middle heavy'.
He's just keeping his CG as low as possible.