Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: comet on June 05, 2011, 06:57:08 PM
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Last week, the first real GOOD weather of the year finally hit Vancouver, Washington.
Naturally, I was anxious to trade in my raingear for the textile armor and take the C14 out on a run. About halfway down 109th street, while travelling nearly 40mph-- I hear this godawful racket...
What I saw in my rearview mirror confirmed the worst--- my left saddlebag had come loose and was bouncing down the street behind me.
Pulling over (luckily no traffic)- I retrieved the bag and refastened it to the bike. Amazingly, the bag had less damage than I originally expected-- and even stayed shut during the ordeal. (Thankfully, this was one time I wasn't carrying my laptop (I always carry it in the left bag- away from any exhaust heat).
I've read numerous accounts of bags jettisoning, but never figured it wouldn't happen to my bike.
Well now it has.
I have the upgraded latches from the recall, but they apparently aren't as secure as I'd hoped.
Once the bag gets repaired- it's getting PINNED. Thanks to those honest individuals on this forum who warned me-- and presented a solution. If only I'd have listened...
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owww can't we say we told ya soooo.....
Sucks you had to see your beautiful luggage bouncing behind you but thankfully it didn't end up under the front of a truck or playing pong on the turnpike where it would have been lost and you would have been at risk trying to get it.... pin baby pin.... a dollar fix if you use two allen wrenches and a couple of rubber grommets as backings. I made the holes exactly a firm fit and just used the grommets as extra safety on the other side where the stem exits the bracket...
vivo
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That really does suck. But like you pointed to. It always happens to the other guy. It's a herd mentality! That is until it bites you! :o I hope all works out well. You were lucky that you heard and saw it. You could have totally lost the bag. But it's not a problem! At least that's what we have heard! ::)
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The bag recall was for the latches breaking. What we're seeing now is that some bikes have a wide tolerance in fit between the latching surface and the latch. Not all the bikes have this but it would be wise to either pin or use the saddlebag retaining brackets. Another 'fix' is to narrow the tolerance between the latching surface and the latch.
Pinning the bags - http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1152.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1152.0)
Saddlebag retaining brackets - http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0)
Tolerance fix - http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/baglatchfix (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/baglatchfix)
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Sorry you had your bags go bouncing down the road. :(
I decided to not take any chances and i pinned mine last week.
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Its a sickening feeling to see your bag flying off behind you. I just replaced my right side bag (which I destroyed hitting a gas pump protector after parking too close to refuel). I noticed the replacement bag is tighter fitting than the OEM bags ever were; but I think I want to pin my bags for extra insurance. I also think Kawasaki needs to go back to the drawing board on these units. seems like a better job can be done in securing the bags to the bike.
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What I saw in my rearview mirror confirmed the worst--- my left saddlebag had come loose and was bouncing down the street behind me.
You really should post what year bike and how many miles.
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You really should post what year bike and how many miles.
2008 w/21k mi.
Thanks all for the comments!
Anyone have a connect with a good price on another bag?
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Sorry to hear about your bag... if you are looking for a new one and would like to sell that one, I would like to buy it if it is functional.
Tony
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2008 w/21k mi.
Ah, so you were in the luggage attachment recall span/area. Did you ever get the recall "fixes" done to the bike?
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Ah, so you were in the luggage attachment recall span/area. Did you ever get the recall "fixes" done to the bike?
Yes. I did get the newer latches installed right after the recall.
I was under the mistaken impression Kawasaki's updates were a cure-all: now, to my dismay-- several years later, I find out different...
Again, very good info on the old site, (thanks for the links, vajim) .
TonyR, if/when I locate another replacement bag, I'll send you some pics of the damage...
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Well, so I have one less thing to obsess about, I just ordered the retaining clips thingies off FeeBay.
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Well, so I have one less thing to obsess about, I just ordered the retaining clips thingies off FeeBay.
You might have gotten them cheaper directly from Zteve on here! :o
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You might have gotten them cheaper directly from Zteve on here! :o
If I'd known that . . .
Can't remember everything and no longer try to.
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Is this somthing to worry about on the 2011 too?
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Is this somthing to worry about on the 2011 too?
yes
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Thanks, I'll be addressing it this weekend!! Finding a bag gone is a horrifying thought!!
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yes
:( I was hoping to avoid having to address it. I guess pinning them isn't a huge big deal, since I rarely take them off. But the thought of drilling into stuff on a brand new bike is..... disturbing. Maybe some of those kewl looking metal retainer things in that other thread, then...
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Wow, I hate to hear this happening to folks.
Almost 33,000 miles and my '10 bags haven't taken flight (yet). I'm not too concerned about it though. Its about time for something to happen.
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that does suck.
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Wow, I hate to hear this happening to folks.
Almost 33,000 miles and my '10 bags haven't taken flight (yet). I'm not too concerned about it though. Its about time for something to happen.
I too,was never concerned about this.......but reading these posts has got me thinking.... :o
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Just consider the pins a new farkel.
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:( I was hoping to avoid having to address it. I guess pinning them isn't a huge big deal, since I rarely take them off. But the thought of drilling into stuff on a brand new bike is..... disturbing. Maybe some of those kewl looking metal retainer things in that other thread, then...
A stock bike is a sad thing. No-brainer mods make a nice bike what the factory *should* have made it. You are making it better. Drill that puppy and stop sweating it !
Barry
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:( I was hoping to avoid having to address it. I guess pinning them isn't a huge big deal, since I rarely take them off. But the thought of drilling into stuff on a brand new bike is..... disturbing. Maybe some of those kewl looking metal retainer things in that other thread, then...
No need to drill, just get these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
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So is there any down side to the brackets, by the time I buy to extra long drill bits and pins, the cost probably washes...............
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A stock bike is a sad thing. No-brainer mods make a nice bike what the factory *should* have made it. You are making it better. Drill that puppy and stop sweating it !
My new bike is far from stock. Already thousands of dollars of addons. But nothing, so far, has been a "permanent"/damaging mod.
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No need to drill, just get these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
Done
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Done
Zteve is the guy selling these on ebay, you could have saved yourself a lil dough by getting them from him on this board.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0)
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You do not need an extra long bit and the pins are like a buck at your favorite hardware store. I do not have the fancy "push on the end button to release the little locking balls" type pins, just the cheap ring in the end, spring loaded balls on the other. They work great, took a whopping 15 minutes to do the modification. I drilled twice, once small and then bigger to get a fit I liked. The pins do not come out easy but I do not lose a finger pulling them out.
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OK, I guess I will be the first A$$ in this thread. Every time I see the thread I want so bad to type something but I have resisted. But now that it is on its way to 3 pages....
I am not doubting anyone's bags have come off and slid down the highway. I am doubting, however, that this is a mechanical failure of any kind (post-'08 latch recall). I will always say operator error. My bags ('09) are by no means tight fitting and move around considerably if I grab hold and lift or try to move them. It is VERY EASY to not put them back on correctly. You might miss putting the bag into the front bracket or one of the 2 slots. Heck, you might put the bag on the wrong side of the bike (yes, they WILL fit on the opposite side!). I am so paranoid about putting them on wrong, I ALWAYS grab and lift to make sure I put them on solidly. I sometimes have forgotten to double check before I depart, I will get off at the neighborhood stop sign and check it again.
Back in October of last year, the bike had roughly 20,000 miles, I had a run-in with a minivan who decided at the last minute he wanted to be in the turn lane I was about to occupy. Trying to avoid him, down I went on the left side at about 15-20 mph. The bike slid over 125' and had major damage to the mirror (basically broke it off at the frame mounts), bag (bent the mounting bracket behind the plastic) and foot controls (snapped the shifter off). However, the bag stayed on the bike, did not open and took the brunt of the impact saving a lot of plastic on the rest of the bike. (BTW, I GOT A TICKET FOR FAILURE TO CONTROL A VEHICLE!!!!) Funny thing is, I bought the bag brackets from ZSteve last summer, but never put them on.
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OK, I guess I will be the first A$$ in this thread. Every time I see the thread I want so bad to type something but I have resisted. But now that it is on its way to 3 pages....
Let me A$$ure you-- the bag WAS not put on improperly. ::)
I felt exactly as you prior to this happening, and my arrogance towards those who suffered a lost bag was the reason I chose not to take any preventative steps. There are videos on YouTube which show how easily the latch mechanism can be defeated by twisting and lifting the bag off it's mounts, so don't believe for a second that latch mechanism is infallible. The road I was on is fairly irregular surfaced, and it is altogether possible the speed I was travelling, coupled with the weight of the unloaded bag could have set up an oscillation-- I don't know. I didn't post of my misfortune looking for sympathy- I just wanted to share my experience in the hopes others did not suffer a similar loss.
It is interesting you would report how strong the bag attachment was when your Concours was involved in a crash. My prior bike, a Valkyrie- had Leatherlyke aftermarket bags which where also known to jettison due to attachment failures--- and oddly enough, when that bike was rearended and demolished by a speeding truck-- the Leatherlykes stayed on! Different situations do not always yield the same results...
Rawman, I appreciate your view on this, and I sincerely hope your "cautious approach to mounting the bags" works well enough for you that you NEVER experience a jettisoned sidecase. I disagree that it is "easy to put them on wrong" for any sighted individual showing a normal degree of care.
Bottom line: I love this bike. It's a great ride.
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I really think this is not a 'user error' in mounting. Some latches have more slop than others. It would be interesting to get a bunch of C14s together and check this out. Mine, for instance, had very little if any slop in the latching surfaces. I used the z-bar approach for my piece of mind, though.
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It's a simple thing to test for yourself on your own bike.
Make sure that your bags are installed properly first. Then stand behind the bike and grab hold of one of the bags at the bottom. Lift gently while you watch the rear most hanger. You can plainly see that with a little more force you could lift that thing right out of the hanger.
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Zteve is the guy selling these on ebay, you could have saved yourself a lil dough by getting them from him on this board.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0)
I ordered them on Ebay. There was no mention of a price on the board posting. I assumed it would be the same.
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I really think this is not a 'user error' in mounting. Some latches have more slop than others. It would be interesting to get a bunch of C14s together and check this out. Mine, for instance, had very little if any slop in the latching surfaces. I used the z-bar approach for my piece of mind, though.
Indeed. I checked my clearance/slop on my bike and it has pretty much NONE. I had assumed they made changes in the later model years and wasn't worrying about the stories. And like others, I also assumed that most of the stories that were not due to pre-recall units were from user error. Yes, it really is possible to not latch it correctly, etc.
But like you, I said "screw it", and ordered the zbars just so there is one less thing I have to think about.
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I ordered them on Ebay. There was no mention of a price on the board posting. I assumed it would be the same.
Here on the forum the saddlebag brackets are $16 shipped in the US. :)
I'll update the post. http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0)
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<snip>
There have been cases of operator error, but the bags can come off w/o operator errror. Of of my C14's bags came off over a sharp bump. Fortunately I recovered it. No operator error in the installation of the bag. One of the reasons I will not likely replace the C14 with another one is Kawasaki's (Mark's) attitude upon trying to get them to address the issue. BTW, is your name Mark, and do you work for Kawasaki "customer service"?
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Kind of a low blow there, Clyde.... ;)
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Kind of a low blow there, Clyde.... ;)
Sorry, Jim.
After being called a liar and an idiot on the old forum when the bag fell off, another "operator error" remark here brought back a bit of the old touchiness.
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Wow, who would have thought it. Clyde with a sense of humor! :rotflmao:
At least I think it was a sense of humor. But maybe he was serious. But that gets the same response!! :rotflmao:
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Just because something hasn't happened to you or you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it's not real. We've had experienced riders (who know how to put the cases on) lost them on bumpy roads. It gets kind of agitating when you have others saying you don't know what you're doing and Kawasaki and it's dealer network washing their hands of you... Does it happen a lot? No, but when it happens to you it gets personal. They've still got problems with the gravel in the rear brake, the cases still can fall off, the rear carrier is only good to carry a sandwich, the front rotors are made of chocolate, and we still have the occasional KIPASS hiccup. And yes, I still love the bike and would not trade it in for the world.
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After reading about this problem so many times, I just had to see for myself. I usually leave the bags hanging in the garage unless I'm taking a trip so I mounted them up. There is no way my bags are coming off unless they loosen up considerably from how they are now. I get a little play in the rear brackets, but I would have to break something in order for them to come out. Neither the front bracket nor the latch has any play in them at all. Perhaps some just fit better than others? Or maybe riding around with them on all the time loosens them up a bit? Just guesses.
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The pins work good.... emmm I was washing the bike last week and I decided to do a real good job as I had been riding in sloppy weather the week prior... When I went to remove a bag I found it was stuck... maybe I had done something wrong? I again tried to free the bag but it wouldn't release... WTF... So I tried the other bag thinking that the latch was stuck.... same...............duhhhhhh oh yea the pins! Not only do the bags stay on but you can't yank em off either so they are a very cheap measure of security...
vivo
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Pinned bags make it 100% impossible to have a bag fall off...100%!
;)
vivo
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I bought the z clips of ebay direct from America (for when I get my bike in a week or two). Think they were $20 something inc postage, a dam site cheaper than a new or repaired bag.
Dont care if my bags are tight or loose the clips will be on for peace of mind regardless..
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.....Perhaps some just fit better than others? Or maybe riding around with them on all the time loosens them up a bit? Just guesses.
Manufacturing tolerances can add up.
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After reading so much about this I decided to make the modification with some clasps that I had on hand;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/chamberlincalls/pins.jpg)
These arn't going anywhere and look like they came on the bike.
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Nice job, Jaclaw! 8)
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"Quote from: Rhino on June 08, 2011, 07:14:48 pm
No need to drill, just get these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)"
Done
Arrived yesterday. Easiest mod ever- open handle put on metal thingy, close handle. It is an amazing idea/design and fits perfectly.
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"Quote from: Rhino on June 08, 2011, 07:14:48 pm
No need to drill, just get these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Concours-14-GTR-1400-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0aac5bacQQitemZ270762007468QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)"
Arrived yesterday. Easiest mod ever- open handle put on metal thingy, close handle. It is an amazing idea/design and fits perfectly.
Agreed! :thumbs:
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The retaining brackets are trick, and work really well.
Oh yea, I'm the guy who instantly took the bread wrapper off the clip...then noticed the instructions..."The read wrapper is for the right bag..." Well, at least I had a 50-50 shot of getting it right the first time.
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After reading so much about this I decided to make the modification with some clasps that I had on hand;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/chamberlincalls/pins.jpg)
These arn't going anywhere and look like they came on the bike.
Those look great...Nice work! :thumbs: Where did you find the black ones? Got a link?
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The retaining brackets are trick, and work really well.
Oh yea, I'm the guy who instantly took the bread wrapper off the clip...then noticed the instructions..."The read wrapper is for the right bag..." Well, at least I had a 50-50 shot of getting it right the first time.
LOL! I ALMOST did the same thing.
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The clasps were left over from some project years ago. Not sure where they can be found.
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Just lost my left side bag this past weekend. Was doing a 150 mile ride up to Lime Rock, CT. Stopped for gas one time on the way there and it was still on the bike, got to the track and it was gone. Spent two hours looking for it but no luck. Phone, shoes, hat and gloves inside. Going to be having a conversation with Kawi about this. It was mounted correctly, I always double check to make sure they're on. I'll be pinning the next one but am disturbed by the number of people this has happened to. Something is wrong with the design.
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Just lost my left side bag this past weekend. Was doing a 150 mile ride up to Lime Rock, CT. Stopped for gas one time on the way there and it was still on the bike, got to the track and it was gone. Spent two hours looking for it but no luck. Phone, shoes, hat and gloves inside. Going to be having a conversation with Kawi about this. It was mounted correctly, I always double check to make sure they're on. I'll be pinning the next one but am disturbed by the number of people this has happened to. Something is wrong with the design.
:o
Yet another reason to get the first gen C14, you can see the bags in yer mirrors... ;) :)
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Just lost my left side bag this past weekend. Was doing a 150 mile ride up to Lime Rock, CT. Stopped for gas one time on the way there and it was still on the bike, got to the track and it was gone. Spent two hours looking for it but no luck. Phone, shoes, hat and gloves inside. Going to be having a conversation with Kawi about this. It was mounted correctly, I always double check to make sure they're on. I'll be pinning the next one but am disturbed by the number of people this has happened to. Something is wrong with the design.
Bummer. That would really suck. Do you have a gen 1 or 2 bike?
I use the retaining brackets from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Concours-14-GTR-1400-All-Years-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-/270912949890?_trksid=p4340.l2557&forcev4exp=true&item=270912949890&nma=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&si=/uILVgDPZDNEaDRbZolF0JCbgrU=&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Concours-14-GTR-1400-All-Years-Saddlebag-Retaining-Brackets-/270912949890?_trksid=p4340.l2557&forcev4exp=true&item=270912949890&nma=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&si=/uILVgDPZDNEaDRbZolF0JCbgrU=&vxp=mtr)
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Just lost my left side bag this past weekend. Was doing a 150 mile ride up to Lime Rock, CT. Stopped for gas one time on the way there and it was still on the bike, got to the track and it was gone. Spent two hours looking for it but no luck. Phone, shoes, hat and gloves inside. Going to be having a conversation with Kawi about this. It was mounted correctly, I always double check to make sure they're on. I'll be pinning the next one but am disturbed by the number of people this has happened to. Something is wrong with the design.
That really sucks! Sorry about that. Some of us went with these instead of pinning.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=473.0)
I missed Rhino's post above. These are the same brackets from the same seller.
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Good luck talking with Kwak central. Let us know how that goes.......seriously.
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:o
Yet another reason to get the first gen C14, you can see the bags in yer mirrors... ;) :)
Yeah but you can't see the cars ;)
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I just use a zip tie, cheap insurance as my bags are always on. Good luck.
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I just use a zip tie, cheap insurance as my bags are always on. Good luck.
You should post a photo of that method (where it is used) since I don't remember seeing how it is done.
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Think I may go this route.
(http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/67/67707f1b-ed7a-4574-a783-ae73dc65ddd2_300.jpg)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100338704?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=locking+pin&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100338704#.UWzMjbWLaUk (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100338704?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=locking+pin&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100338704#.UWzMjbWLaUk)
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I will not be drilling into my bike, so I will be giving the brackets a try.
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The wire brackets, which I use, are very secure indeed. Wouldn't help much if someone removes the lock cylinder, though, but then nothing would short of using Brian's anchor chain.
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I will not be drilling into my bike, so I will be giving the brackets a try.
+1. That is why I used the brackets.
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You should post a photo of that method (where it is used) since I don't remember seeing how it is done.
Max, I just run the zip tie between the latch and the hand rails. The latch is still functional allowing entry to the bags.
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Max, I just run the zip tie between the latch and the hand rails. The latch is still functional allowing entry to the bags.
Sorry, but no can picture it!!
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I used to be one of the I'll never drill guys, then I took the plunge before I lost a bag... 8)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6903.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6903.0)
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Sorry, but no can picture it!!
Look at texriders thread, reply 1.
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Look at texriders thread, reply 1.
Cool! So it goes through the handle then rail. Simple!
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I don't know about you guys, but when I travel, my bags are loaded heavy! With all that weight in the bags, the zip tie will probably break! I don't want to be the one to find out how strong the zip ties are!
I like the way Texrider dealt with this problem, and am taking the same route, before my trip to Colorado.
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I don't know about you guys, but when I travel, my bags are loaded heavy! With all that weight in the bags, the zip tie will probably break! I don't want to be the one to find out how strong the zip ties are!
I like the way Texrider dealt with this problem, and am taking the same route, before my trip to Colorado.
Before I bought Zteve's brackets I used zip ties. I have one break and the bag didn't even have much of a load in it. I didn't lose the bag though.
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I am mystified by the " I won't drill my bike " comments. It's a bracket. It is a replaceable part.
To me, there is no logic to justify not adding the additional protection of pinning. Lose a bag, don't lose a bag. Hmmm... NOT a hard decision. Cost is under $4. Too many instances of people losing bags to take no action.
Amazing... drill away.
Barry
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I am mystified by the " I won't drill my bike " comments. It's a bracket. It is a replaceable part.
To me, there is no logic to justify not adding the additional protection of pinning. Lose a bag, don't lose a bag. Hmmm... NOT a hard decision. Cost is under $4. Too many instances of people losing bags to take no action.
Amazing... drill away.
Barry
I'm with you Barry. I just got a long drill bit and drilled away. I think it looks OK.
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I pinned my FJR bags, I may pin these at some point but the zip ties I use are pretty strong. I cannot see the bag breaking them but who knows. I like the flat black pins.
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After reading so much about this I decided to make the modification with some clasps that I had on hand;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/chamberlincalls/pins.jpg)
These arn't going anywhere and look like they came on the bike.
Where did you get the pins?
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I am mystified by the " I won't drill my bike " comments. It's a bracket. It is a replaceable part.
Some of us just don't want to modify our bikes in any permanent way and haven't priced out each part to judge if it is "worth it". Same way I would NEVER put a bumper sticker on my car, or drill a bike fairing to put in a bracket for a light or some type of mount. Some people are willing, but only after the bike ages some or reaches some point in time. Sometimes it is rational, sometimes it is irrational/emotional.
You might not agree with it but it shouldn't be that hard to understand.
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Some of us just don't want to modify our bikes
+1... keep em stock, just like they came from Japan. ;)
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No need to pin the bags on the newer ones, they don't come off (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/icon10.gif) (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/stevewfl/media/icon10.gif.html)
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Actually, I think we've had an instance where that did happen.