Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: martin_14 on July 02, 2013, 09:29:32 AM
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Is there any function in the PC V that allows to tame the jerkiness of the throttle when going from closed to open? It's making me mad >:(
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I don't think I've heard of that 'mod' with the PC V. However, the throttle tamer and properly adjusted cables help alleviate that.
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I don't think I've heard of that 'mod' with the PC V. However, the throttle tamer and properly adjusted cables help alleviate that.
what he said^^^
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I don't think I've heard of that 'mod' with the PC V. However, the throttle tamer and properly adjusted cables help alleviate that.
That is a shame. I had a Power Commander for my RC51 and the map I had for it did a great job of smoothing out the original "on/off" throttle.
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You can go in and change the fueling cell by cell.
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You can go in and change the fueling cell by cell.
That sounds like the PowerCommander.
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Well, just because I haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist........or does it?
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That sounds like the PowerCommander.
Isn't that what we're talking about? ...or am I confusing myself again?
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Yep. Power Commander V (5)
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You can go in and change the fueling cell by cell.
With that flexibility, yes, one can change the throttle response somewhat by adjusting the mix in increments... but you still can't control the amount of AIR going in- that is purely mechanical. So there is less control than one might think. A "throttle tamer" can do that for you (a replacement under-grip thing) mechanically. An electronic throttle (drive by wire) makes those adjustments super easy, assuming it is programmable (which of course it would not be, since manufacturers don't give owners that type of flexibility).
One gets used to some of it... but it was quite apparent to me when coming from a ZRX, which didn't have this issue. Even now, to me, it is still annoying.
Also some of the apparent fight will be from the secondary butterflies, if those have not been removed. Without a PCV, the Ghul flash will "disable" the 'flies, but I don't think their map has any throttle response changes to the curve.
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A Power Commander did the trick for my CBR 929.
For the C14, just adjusting the cables was a huge improvement. I later added a Throttle Tamer, removed the flies and added a PC V. This made the transitions even smoother. The last mods I made at about the same time so I can't tell you which one made the most improvement.
Mark
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Isn't that what we're talking about? ...or am I confusing myself again?
Sorry for the confusing post. :doh:
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I did all the mods in question in the following order...
1. purchased bike with PC-V, Autotune, flys out, air filter, full Area P exhaust
Throttle was EXTREMELY notchy, or on/off at part throttle.
2. Adjusted cables properly, still very notchy.
3. Adjusted map for fuel economy below a specific % of throttle open and below a particular RPM. That got me fuel economy, didn't help with the on/off. I didn't expect it to, and I did this with the guidance of the tuner that provided the original map to the previous owner.
4. Spent $90 on a throttle tamer. OMG. Best money I have spent hands down. All issues solved.
Regards,
Barry
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I did all the mods in question in the following order...
3. Adjusted map for fuel economy below a specific % of throttle open and below a particular RPM. That got me fuel economy, didn't help with the on/off. I didn't expect it to, and I did this with the guidance of the tuner that provided the original map to the previous owner.
Regards,
Barry
Yes, mapping for fuel economy won't help the on/off issue. With the right map, a throttle tamer isn't necessary.
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Yes, mapping for fuel economy won't help the on/off issue. With the right map, a throttle tamer isn't necessary.
I don't agree with that, as per my last posting. The map can only adjust the amount of fuel injected, it cannot control the amount of air coming from a certain throttle position. Thus, you can trim it a little with lean/rich, but you can't change the vast majority of throttle control. A "Throttle Tamer" does do that by changing the amount of throttle opening depending on the amount turned of the handlebar throttle (it is like a new mechanical "map").
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'With the right map, a throttle tamer isn't necessary.'
That is a correct statement. Something is not correct with the PCV or the bike itself. Either the map is incorrect or the PCV is not setup properly.
Where did you get this map for the PCV? Why do you have a PCV? Have you had it properly tuned on a dyno so you can see the a/f ratio?
Did you calibrate Throttle position?
You can get an Autotune but it can only help if you fuel maps are close to correct and not way off.
This is where you can try and fix it yourself depending on if your going rich or lean on throttle open
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Support/Help/wwhelp/wwhimpl/js/html/wwhelp.htm#href=3_PC5.1.26.html (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Support/Help/wwhelp/wwhimpl/js/html/wwhelp.htm#href=3_PC5.1.26.html)
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'With the right map, a throttle tamer isn't necessary.'
That is a correct statement.
Depending on exactly what is meant by "jerky off-on throttle" it might be correct or it might not be.
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You maybe right. I can be jerky on the throttle or I can roll on really smooth.
I found the stock C14's kinda sloppy feeling with the throttle at roll on roll off.
Mine is great with no hesitation, just gotta be careful and smooth with that right hand. I have full AreaP, flies removed and PCV with AutoTune. It is a nice setup.
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I'm really not sure about the usefulness of the PC V to adress this issue, but I will look into the throttle cable adjustment. I did it only once and it took a minute, and I recall there being a definite improvement. Still, I was hoping for some more enlightment regarding what the Power Commander can do or not, and why.
BTW, flies are off. Sorry I forgot to mention that, but I'm on the road (in Riga, capital of Latvia, since you ask) and posting from my tablet is a pain in the... welll... difficult :)
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I'm really not sure about the usefulness of the PC V to adress this issue, but I will look into the throttle cable adjustment. I did it only once and it took a minute, and I recall there being a definite improvement.
I had the same experience (definite improvement with adjustment) a few years ago (when it was new).
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Yet another thought on the matter: when I read "on/off issue" to me it sounds going from on to off, that is, closing the gas. Hence I wrote "off/on issue", with which I mean opening the gas, which is when the bike "caughs" before reacting, instead of just taking off. I hope I managed to convey what I mean... :/
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Yet another thought on the matter: when I read "on/off issue" to me it sounds going from on to off, that is, closing the gas. Hence I wrote "off/on issue", with which I mean opening the gas, which is when the bike "caughs" before reacting, instead of just taking off. I hope I managed to convey what I mean... :/
So i ask again:
Why do you have a PCV? Did you install this yourself? Is your bike modified (besides the flies removed)?
Do you have a slip on exhaust upgrade?
You are not giving us any information or history on how and why you have a PCV and how it got there.
I think you have a bad or wrong fuel map unless you had this installed professionally.
Was the bike always like this or did this just start doing this recently?
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Hi Mike,
My dealer installed the PCV some time ago and took the flies out. Results as expected: more torque under 5000 rpm, etc, as described by others too. Map is standard from the CD that came with the PCV.
Jerckiness was before and after, no change, me thinks. And I have a Remus Hexacone muffler that changed the sound and made the bike 200 mph faster... at least ;)
Sorry that I take long to answer. As I said, I'm on the road. BTW, throttle cable adjusment helped a lot, but it's still there.
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Jerckiness was before and after, no change, me thinks.[...]throttle cable adjusment helped a lot, but it's still there.
http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html (http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html)
The Throttle Tamer has a cam with a reduced radius initially, which requires a slightly farther rotation to achieve the same carburetor or throttle body opening position as a stock throttle. This virtually eliminates the jerky “throttle snatch” especially evident in modern fuel injected street bikes. The radius increases or “ramps up” after ½ throttle to keep overall rotation requires to reach full throttle at or near stock rotation.
Still might not be what you are after, but has a lot of interesting key words :) What it would solve would be what I notice the most- at rolloff from low throttle, it comes onto the throttle too quickly, much more quickly than I am used to from my previous (non-FI biles). This creates a "jerk" as if the throttle is an on/off switch instead of variable, reducing my feeling of control.
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http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html (http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html)
The Throttle Tamer has a cam with a reduced radius initially, which requires a slightly farther rotation to achieve the same carburetor or throttle body opening position as a stock throttle. This virtually eliminates the jerky “throttle snatch” especially evident in modern fuel injected street bikes. The radius increases or “ramps up” after ½ throttle to keep overall rotation requires to reach full throttle at or near stock rotation.
Still might not be what you are after, but has a lot of interesting key words :) What it would solve would be what I notice the most- at rolloff from low throttle, it comes onto the throttle too quickly, much more quickly than I am used to from my previous (non-FI biles). This creates a "jerk" as if the throttle is an on/off switch instead of variable, reducing my feeling of control.
Definitely helps with the smoothness of the throttle... the stock tube was very abrupt from not giving gas to giving gas (which is most apparent in stop and go traffic, lower speeds). I'm not clear that we've fully defined the "off-on throttle" in this post, but I think the Throttle Tamer might be the solution you're looking for.
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Yes, mapping for fuel economy won't help the on/off issue. With the right map, a throttle tamer isn't necessary.
Nope... read the last couple posts. Throttle Tamer simply gives you a different "ratio" of throttle tube movement, to throttle body opening. Like a 1/4 turn race throttle tube, vs. an OEM 3/4 turn throttle tube. Except Throttle Tamer reduces the speed, where the race tube increase it. They make multiple versions for different off-road bikes. They come with like 3-5 cams. Has nothing to do with the map, they are also used on carbureted bikes.
My bike had ZERO hesitation or coughing at part throttle. It was simply off then ON, with little ability to vary that easily. Throttle tamer made the bike much, much easier to ease from not throttle to part throttle. Best money I've spent.
Barry
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Those throttle tamers are for bikes that run correctly.I understand how they work.
This guy (I think is what he is saying) is the bike bogs bad, really bad out so a throttle tamer cannot fix that. It is still going to bog out.
He is either going way rich or way lean.
I do not think any of those maps that came on that disk are any good.
I do not know of anyone who even uses those maps.
Hopefully someone else chimes in with better info.
I have a good map for a 2008/2009 but for a full AreaP flies out.
Maybe he can elaborate more. Did he say it DID work correctly from the dealer? Maybe he does mean the bike is too Snappy. If so a throttle tamer would help. Heck I may get one.
Last weekend we adjusted the pump values on a GSXR1000 track bike at Barber Motorsports track with a PowerCommander to smooth out the 'Snap-iness' and smooth out 'roll-on' and it worked perfect.
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I have a full Area P, flies out, PC V (no autotune), Area P map. It was incredibly jerky at very low speeds and annoying. I took it to MPH here in NE Ohio and had them do a custom tune. I forget what I paid but it was worth every penny. I had him concentrate on the low end and it took care of everything. It is smooth now. I'll post (if I remember) the maps and you can see where the roughness was.
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As a recently "job impaired" person, I've had nothing to do lately but play with pcv maps. Both my Ninja 1000 and c14 have them. The c14 never felt as good, down low, as the Ninja. For "low", I'm talking about just off idle, leaving a stop light. I had an annoying flat spot, on the 14, that drove me nuts.
First, mark your throttle with regards to the % open. Make sure you are very close with regards to 0, 2, 5 and 10 percent. I ended up noticing my spot was 2% and 2250 rpm and some sort of stumble at 5% 2750.
Go into the fuel table and change the value in that cell to 15. Send the map over, and see how it feels. You wont hurt anythign and can always go back if you saved the map thats in place. My pcv software does it automatically. You coudl try 5 or 10 first, but this is like sighting in a gun. A click or two is tough to notice. Make a larger change your sure to feel, first. You can always back it off.By spending some time with this, my bikes will pull, clean, from right at 1200 rpm.
You cannot really do this without a load on the machine, you need to be riding. dragging the rear brake will increase the load without needing to find a mountain road.
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'With the right map, a throttle tamer isn't necessary.'
That is a correct statement. Something is not correct with the PCV or the bike itself. Either the map is incorrect or the PCV is not setup properly.
Where did you get this map for the PCV? Why do you have a PCV? Have you had it properly tuned on a dyno so you can see the a/f ratio?
Did you calibrate Throttle position?
You can get an Autotune but it can only help if you fuel maps are close to correct and not way off.
This is where you can try and fix it yourself depending on if your going rich or lean on throttle open
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Support/Help/wwhelp/wwhimpl/js/html/wwhelp.htm#href=3_PC5.1.26.html (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Support/Help/wwhelp/wwhimpl/js/html/wwhelp.htm#href=3_PC5.1.26.html)
Has anyone tried using the "Accelerator Pump" feature in the PCV and what values have they found to work well?
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The link you put up was a little off, I found the right page. http://www.fz1-forum.com/forum/gen-ii-mods/8476-power-commander-5-help-accelerator-pump-setting.html (http://www.fz1-forum.com/forum/gen-ii-mods/8476-power-commander-5-help-accelerator-pump-setting.html) . Thanks, that helps.
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Randy, thanks. Yours is the correct link. Its a pretty decent guide.
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I have a full Area P, flies out, PC V (no autotune), Area P map. It was incredibly jerky at very low speeds and annoying. I took it to MPH here in NE Ohio and had them do a custom tune. I forget what I paid but it was worth every penny. I had him concentrate on the low end and it took care of everything. It is smooth now. I'll post (if I remember) the maps and you can see where the roughness was.
Sorry it took so long.