Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Flienlow on June 11, 2013, 09:36:43 PM
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Ever try to do things right and have an epic failure? This by far is not the first time I have changed oil on a motorcycle.
Drained the Oil, installed new a crush washer, and a new oil filter. Yes, I went hand tight plus about a quarter turn. I even put oil on the rubber seal. Filled with oil. Started the bike and Poof! Oil all over the garage. I dont know if I did something wrong, or if this is a one off failure.
ever see this before?
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I'll stick around for this one.
:popcorn:
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LOL ;D ...sorry to laugh, but it reminded me of the worst work day of my LIFE back in the 90's: Changed the oil on a 150 hp / 135 psi screw compressor that had 2 oil filters. My co-worker changed one filter and I the other. Started up and "poof" (your word!) 25 GALLONS :yikes: of oil sprayed 360 degrees around the room over every square foot of wall/ceiling/floor/ducting/compressor/ and worst of all my co-worker. It even got into panels and conduit!! It took 3 of us about 6 hours to get the cleanup (mostly) done. Culprit? A faulty quad-ring gasket (wrong pressure rating per manufacturer's rep) on one filter. Not my filter 8) ....
Hope this makes you feel better about the little spill!! :D
Back on topic...I wonder, was the old seal still stuck on the bike? I've heard of that causing a similar failure.
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Back on topic...I wonder, was the old seal still stuck on the bike? I've heard of that causing a similar failure.
No, the old seal came off without issue. I know this because I lined them up together before installing the 303. I started the bike up and oil shot everywhere. When I pulled it off the seals were as shown.
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The only other thing I can think of is a damaged thread that made the turning torque increase as though the seal was being compressed when in fact it wasn't (or at least not enough)..just a guess ...
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Defective filter is my guess. If you bought it locally, take it back for a replacement and some free oil.
(you might not get the free oil, but it wouldn't hurt to ask)
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What brand, filter? Kinda looks like a K&N, but I can't tell from the pictures.
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What brand, filter? Kinda looks like a K&N, but I can't tell from the pictures.
You did say that you found your glasses right? 8) ;)
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Yeah, I found them. Had another lapse just after that looking for them again and I was wearing them this time. That only lasted for about a second or two, though.
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Apparently you didn't follow the directions:
Oil Change instructions for Women:
1) Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since the last oil change.
2) Drink a cup of coffee
3) 15 minutes later, write a check and leave with a properly maintained vehicle.
Money spent:
Oil Change: $30.00
Coffee: $1.00
Total: $31.00
Oil Change instructions for Men :
1) Wait until Saturday, drive to auto parts store and buy a case of oil, filter, kitty litter, hand cleaner and a scented tree, write a check for $50.00.
2) Stop by 7/11 and buy a case of beer, write a check for $20, drive home.
3) Open a beer and drink it.
4) Jack car up. Spend 30 minutes looking for jack stands.
5) Find jack stands under kid's pedal car.
6) In frustration, open another beer and drink it.
7) Place drain pan under engine.
8) Look for 9/16 box end wrench.
9) Give up and use crescent wrench.
10) Unscrew drain plug.
11) Drop drain plug in pan of hot oil: splash hot oil on you in process. Cuss.
12) Crawl out from under car to wipe hot oil off of face and arms. Throw kitty litter on spilled oil.
13) Have another beer while watching oil drain.
14) Spend 30 minutes looking for oil filter wrench.
15) Give up; crawl under car and hammer a screwdriver through oil filter and twist off.
16) Crawl out from under car with dripping oil filter splashing oil everywhere from holes. Cleverly hide old oil filter among trash in trash can to avoid environmental penalties. Drink a beer.
17) Install new oil filter making sure to apply a thin coat of oil to gasket surface.
18) Dump first quart of fresh oil into engine.
19) Remember drain plug from step 11.
20) Hurry to find drain plug in drain pan.
21) Drink beer.
22) Discover that first quart of fresh oil is now on the floor. Throw kitty litter on oil spill.
23) Get drain plug back in with only a minor spill. Drink beer.
24) Crawl under car getting kitty litter into eyes. Wipe eyes with oily rag used to clean drain plug. Slip with stupid crescent wrench tightening drain plug and bang knuckles on frame removing any excess skin between knuckles and frame.
25) Begin cussing fit.
26) Throw stupid crescent wrench.
27) Cuss for additional 5 minutes because wrench hit bowling trophy.
28) Beer.
29) Clean up hands and bandage as required to stop bl ood flow.
30) Beer.
31) Dump in five fresh quarts of oil.
32) Beer.
33) Lower car from jack stands.
34) Move car back to apply more kitty litter to fresh oil spilled during any missed steps.
35) Beer.
36) Test drive car.
37) Get pulled over: arrested for driving under the influence.
38) Car gets impounded.
39) Call loving wife, make bail.
40) 12 hours later, get car from impound yard.
Money spent:
Parts: $50.00
DUI: $2500.00
Impound fee: $75.00
Bail: $1500.00
Beer: $20.00
Total: $4,145.00
But you know the job was done right!
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It's a K&N....there's your problem. ;D
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:popcorn:
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I've had quite a few of those oil change steps happen to me but not all at one time...
Oh, and I've been using K&N for years without any issues and will continue to do so...
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Long long ago in a galaxy... no, just long ago I had a 78 VW Diesel Rabbit and it did this to me twice. If I did the recommended hand tight plus 1/4 turn it would blow out the gasket. I then went hand tight plus 1 full turn and that fixed it. Not saying this is a good idea on the C14 just that it worked for me on the Rabbit.
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(http://i40.tinypic.com/2jdjsza.jpg)
The oil filter for a C14 O-RING, do not seal as she shows.
MG valerio. ;)
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I've seen a few of those types of failures.
The only thing that stands out to me about your procedure was, "hand tight + 1/4 turn". Maybe it's just the phrasing that comes out unclear, but I'll throw my two cents in.
I spin the filter down until the O-ring first contacts the sealing surface. at THAT point, I start the "1/4 turn" (or 3/4 turn for most car filters).
And that's my "official" answer.
But personally, I just crank down all filters by hand until they "feel pretty snug". I'm a mechanic by trade, and have done soooo many oil filters it's not even a thought anymore. I just want it snug enough to "know" it's not going to loosen or leak, and loose enough so I don't have to use dynamite to get it back off in a few thousand miles. ;)
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Once- just once, I tried the contact + 1/4 turn procedure. My filter started seeping before long. Since then 20 years of tightening until lightly snug has worked every time. Again- my $.02
mat
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I've seen a few of those types of failures.
The only thing that stands out to me about your procedure was, "hand tight + 1/4 turn". Maybe it's just the phrasing that comes out unclear, but I'll throw my two cents in.
I spin the filter down until the O-ring first contacts the sealing surface. at THAT point, I start the "1/4 turn" (or 3/4 turn for most car filters).
And that's my "official" answer.
But personally, I just crank down all filters by hand until they "feel pretty snug". I'm a mechanic by trade, and have done soooo many oil filters it's not even a thought anymore. I just want it snug enough to "know" it's not going to loosen or leak, and loose enough so I don't have to use dynamite to get it back off in a few thousand miles. ;)
I'm also a mechanic and I use the exact same reasoning...."pretty snug" works well for me. On the flip side I have watched plenty of "greenhorn" mechanics double gasket the oil filter and blow oil all over the shop floor, once I watched a tech drive a car out pouring oil only to find he simply never installed a new oil filter at all.
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About five years ago I had a employee call, "can you pick me up at exit 106 ...."
found out he just changed his oil and didn't tighten his filter $$$
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Oil Change instructions for Men :
Money spent:
Parts: $50.00
DUI: $2500.00
Impound fee: $75.00
Bail: $1500.00
Beer: $20.00
Total: $4,145.00
But you know the job was done right!
It's funny because it's true. :rotflmao:
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My manual is not handy at the moment, but I believe there us a torque spec for the filter.
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Yes there is... 13ft-lbs. I don't see how anyone can achieve that unless they use a K&N with the nut on top so that a torque wrench can be used. I've never had an issue with any oil filter that I've hand tightened. I just tighten by hand until it won't turn anymore. The problem with filters on these bikes is that if you get it too tight it becomes one with the bike and takes herculean efforts to get it loose. We've also had anecdotal evidence that 13ft-lbs is way too tight. Also, the picture of the filter doesn't agree with my K&N-303. For instance, the second picture shows the word Performance above the K&N logo with the rectangular box totally filled in with white paint. Mine shows the word Powersports and the rectangular boxes are not filled in with white paint, except for a very small section next to the K&N lettering. Additionally, mine shows KN-303 above the Powersports lettering and the nut has a hole in it for safety wire. The OP's does not show the KN-303 and that's the only place on my filter that does show the model. I'm not sure what I'm getting at but it could be a change in production as far as the logo goes or it could be counterfeit. I don't know. In either case I would let the K&N folks know about the issue at hand. I'm sure that they would be very interested in it.
For those that run these filters can you check to see if your lettering matches up with the OP's?
Just did a quick search on google for images of the 303 and they agree with what I have on hand (KN-303) so now I'm a bit puzzled by the OP's pictures of his filter. I also tried a search using the word performance and still got the same images of the filter I have on hand.
Next time I change my oil, I'm going to test how much torque I apply by hand assuming I can get my torque wrench to work under there. The wrench is a largish Snap On click type.
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snip...
Also, the picture of the filter doesn't agree with my K&N-303. For instance, the second picture shows the word Performance above the K&N logo with the rectangular box totally filled in with white paint. Mine shows the word Powersports and the rectangular boxes are not filled in with white paint, except for a very small section next to the K&N lettering. Additionally, mine shows KN-303 above the Powersports lettering and the nut has a hole in it for safety wire. The OP's does not show the KN-303 and that's the only place on my filter that does show the model. I'm not sure what I'm getting at but it could be a change in production as far as the logo goes or it could be counterfeit. I don't know. In either case I would let the K&N folks know about the issue at hand. I'm sure that they would be very interested in it.
For those that run these filters can you check to see if your lettering matches up with the OP's?
Just did a quick search on google for images of the 303 and they agree with what I have on hand (KN-303) so now I'm a bit puzzled by the OP's pictures of his filter. I also tried a search using the word performance and still got the same images of the filter I have on hand.
You made me go out to the garage and check out the 303 that I have out there. You're right (of course), the 303 that I have does not match the OP's pics but it does match your description. Another difference is that the flange that the o-ring is mounted in is not painted in the OP's pics but it is on the filter that I have here.
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:doh: missed that one. Good catch, my friend. Something is very fishy here (the filter, not the OP), methinks.
To the OP, where did you get this filter from and is there a KN number on it? I still can't find any images that match the filter that you are showing to us. And did you get a 'good' deal on it? These filters typically sell for $10+. Even looking on ebay I can't find an image to match what the OP is showing us.
I'm really beginning to think that is a fake K&N....
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I am partial to the OEM filters, I just snug them down as tight as I can by hand "I use a hand gripper for opening jars" and I have had zero leaks and zero issues.
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I've been changing oil since I was a young lad, working in my dad's "Broadway Esso" service station (anybody remember Esso?) waaay back in the mid-60's. Anyhow, I have always just hand-tightened the filter as tight as I can, using only one hand. Never had a leak, never had trouble on subsequent removal.
Cars, trucks, bikes, tractors, mowers, outboards, PWCs...all the same. Oil up the new filter gasket, clean off the old surface, and spin it on. Grit your teeth to tighten with one hand. Call it done.
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I've been changing oil since I was a young lad, working in my dad's "Broadway Esso" service station (anybody remember Esso?) waaay back in the mid-60's. Anyhow, I have always just hand-tightened the filter as tight as I can, using only one hand. Never had a leak, never had trouble on subsequent removal.
Cars, trucks, bikes, tractors, mowers, outboards, PWCs...all the same. Oil up the new filter gasket, clean off the old surface, and spin it on. Grit your teeth to tighten with one hand. Call it done.
+1!
My first real paying job was pumping gas at my dad's Esso. He paid me $1.25/hour. ;D
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I use HiFlo #303 on my Blackbird and the 2011 1400 Concours. The HiFlo has a round rubber gasket as shown in the OP's picture.
Brent
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The HiFlo has a round rubber gasket as shown in the OP's picture.
Brent
A round O-ring requires more tightening to get it to smoosh down properly. You don't have that issue with a flat rubber gasket.
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Yes there is... 13ft-lbs. I don't see how anyone can achieve that unless they use a K&N with the nut on top so that a torque wrench can be used. I've never had an issue with any oil filter that I've hand tightened. I just tighten by hand until it won't turn anymore. The problem with filters on these bikes is that if you get it too tight it becomes one with the bike and takes herculean efforts to get it loose. We've also had anecdotal evidence that 13ft-lbs is way too tight. ......
YEP... anecdoted by myself back in 07 I believe.... 8)
At the rated torque, the seal is out of the equation (when using the OEM filter) and the torque is actually applied by the metal can against the engine housing..... ??? :'(
I suggest "as tight as you can by hand, plus a half turn by wrench.....
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That's what I've always done on all my machines. Turn as tight as possible by hand then a bit more with the wrench. Only leak I've ever had was the dreaded double gasket scenario when I didn't realize the old gasket stuck to the engine.
Coincidently I just read the column by Peter Egan in Cycle World last night where he describes an oil change in which everything that has ever gone wrong in an oil change happens. I'm a few months behind in my reading so don't try to find it in the latest copy.
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FWIW
As many folks here, on all of my machines I hand tighten the oil filter. However when I bought my 09 C14 ( 5 years ago) I began torquing the filter per the specs. I have used OEM, Mobil1 M1-110 and most recently the K&N 303 oil filters ( someone mentioned that his C14 start up "rattle" was eliminated by the K&N), made no difference on my bike ( I just put in my earplugs before I start my bike and wah lah no more rattle). I use a 3/8" torque wrench with an extension and an AmPro 65mm/14 F type oil wrench..never had a leak and the oil filter comes off although it is stubborn but have had no major filter deformity. Now the spec for my 2011 GSXR 1000 calls for the oil filter to be torqued to 14.5 ft/lbs., which I do with the same results as with the Concours. I figure there must be technical reason why the engineers of both of these bikess recommend the torque.
Once however changing the oil filter on my pick up I did not notice the old filter gasket stuck on the engine... well what a mess I made along with continued oil dripping. Had to park the truck in the grass and try washing the oil off and of course the oil burning smell for many days thereafter.
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Just curious but how tight did the filter feel at 'touch plus 1/4 turn'? The reason I ask is because what you have there looks like the seal blew out under pressure, either from a defective oil filter stamping or seal, or insufficient tightening. Could you have easily kept tightening it by hand or were you about at the limit of how tight you could get it?
I tighten the oil filters as tight as I can by hand only although I do wear rubber gloves and that really does help in gripping the filter. The filters always come off with great difficulty so I am confident they are more than tight enough, plus they never seep or leak oil.
Brian
Ever try to do things right and have an epic failure? This by far is not the first time I have changed oil on a motorcycle.
Drained the Oil, installed new a crush washer, and a new oil filter. Yes, I went hand tight plus about a quarter turn. I even put oil on the rubber seal. Filled with oil. Started the bike and Poof! Oil all over the garage. I dont know if I did something wrong, or if this is a one off failure.
ever see this before?