Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: frank 0 on June 04, 2011, 11:30:33 AM
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While torquing engine drain bolt to 25 Nm (30 Nm according manual) the bolt sheared off. It was a magnetic bolt, I think part of it is now lying in the oil pan. Has anybody already removed the oil pan and anything special I shoul pay attention to?
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:yikes: What year bike?
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One of the first series , 2008 neutron grey
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If you sheared the head off the oil drain bolt, the stem (the stud) of the bolt should still be stuck in the threads of the oil pan, not up inside it lying on the bottom. Once the head is broken off, the tension is removed from the bolt and you can usually 'walk' the stud out of a tapped hole by 'nudging' it in the correct direction to unscrew it. After a bit of the stud is sticking out, you can just grab it with a pair of pliers and work a lot faster. A small ***** punch as close to the edge of the bolt as you can get tends to work well; use the punch at about a 30 degree angle and tap it gently. You should see the bolt move slightly with every tap. Of course all of this is going to be more difficult working upside down, under a bike with limited room, and it may leak a bit of oil on you as you work. You could take the pan down, take out the screw and then reinstall the pan with a new gasket; which way is easier depends on you really.
That is a big bolt threaded into an aluminum pan so it is very possible that it damaged the threads in the pan before the head broke. If so, the pan will have to be repaired by using a larger plug in a newly tapped hole, or welded closed and re-drilled and tapped to original size, or something similar to make a permanent repair.
Brian
While torquing engine drain bolt to 25 Nm (30 Nm according manual) the bolt sheared off. It was a magnetic bolt, I think part of it is now lying in the oil pan. Has anybody already removed the oil pan and anything special I shoul pay attention to?
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While torquing engine drain bolt to 25 Nm (30 Nm according manual) the bolt sheared off. It was a magnetic bolt, I think part of it is now lying in the oil pan. Has anybody already removed the oil pan and anything special I shoul pay attention to?
do share with us the manufacturer of that magnetic bolt, so the rest of us don't buy one.....if it broke.....
Possibly use one of the larger left hand center-drill-type bolt extractors in a right angle drill, carefully, it should spin it right out of you didn't ruin the threads....
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I succesfully recovered the remains of the drain bolt thanks to BDF's suggestions. No more magnetic bolts for me. Manufacturer was Gold Plug LLC. Oil pan thread still in perfect condition. Thanks everybody for the replies.
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clearly a poor manufacturing job, and reallly bad decision on thier part to weaken the bolt that much....no wonder it broke, there is less than 20% of the material in cross section....
I hope you are gonna hit them for a refund, and a good earful for the wasted efforts they forced upon you...
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That does it for me the next time I remove the drain ( Gold Plug ) I will put the original bolt back in place. Sorry to hear of your trouble, you're not the first to report having a problem with Gold Plug. Thanks for the heads up.
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How many months was the Gold Plug in your 2008?
I just put in my 2008 C14 Gold Plugs in the oil drain plug and rear drive a few months ago.
The drive shaft / rear end drain plug MP-11 was recalled due to leaks and am worried about the oil plug.
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Great! Asked my kids for one for my birthday recently. Have it sitting here all ready to go in at the next oil change. Now wondering if I should or not................
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I succesfully recovered the remains of the drain bolt thanks to BDF's suggestions. No more magnetic bolts for me. Manufacturer was Gold Plug LLC. Oil pan thread still in perfect condition. Thanks everybody for the replies.
Strike two for that manufacturer.....somebody else had a leaker for the final drive. I'm staying away from them for sure.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here but as far as "torqueing" a drain bolt is concerned, do we honestly need to do that? :nuts: I mean that in 37 years of changing oil in anything, I have never refered to torque specs when putting the plug back in. A simple tightening slightly past the point of hand tight has always worked for me and I've never had a leak or broken plug period.
I'm glad the OP was able to get the plug out and kudos to Brian on the quick instructions but really, you don't need to torque the drain bolt unless you want this type of result...just sayin. :deadhorse:
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Strike two for that manufacturer.....somebody else had a leaker for the final drive. I'm staying away from them for sure.
+1 I'm shocked! Very poor design!
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I agree with restless above. In the 20 years of changing oil on cars, and 17 on bikes, I've never used a torque wrench to install a drain plug. Finger tight, and just and just snug it up a bit (yes, relative term) with either the wrench or ratchet. I once used a torque wrench to install a goodridge? banjo bolt on a set of SS lines front brake lines. I set the wrench to the exact spec the service manual stated. Needless to say, the bole cracked before the wrench clicked! :o
Since then, other than cam/crank and wheel axles, I use my built in torque wrench. Haven't broke anything yet/
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Great- glad that worked out for you. Dropping the pan would have been a lot of ugly, messy work.
Brian
I succesfully recovered the remains of the drain bolt thanks to BDF's suggestions. No more magnetic bolts for me. Manufacturer was Gold Plug LLC. Oil pan thread still in perfect condition. Thanks everybody for the replies.
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Yep, chain me in on the end of 'me too'- I just snug any drain bolts with a box end wrench. I barely use more force than I could generate with a screwdriver. I believe far more damage is done over tightening bolts than is done by under tightening. Case in point, how many threads are there about stripped oil pan (and final drive) drain holes as compared with threads about drain bolts loosening and / or falling out?
A little bit different point of view: a designer, most likely an engineer today, sits at a desk and spec.'s the torque for fasteners, usually without ever having turned a wrench in his / her life. That person pulls a number out of a column and prints it in a spec. sheet with no more thought or input than a person who does not eat would give to the amount of milk in a recipe. My point is not that these people are bad, stupid or anything else, just that everyone should take "spec.'s" with a grain of salt and always use common sense. Just because something is written in a manual does not mean that someone of vast skills and / or experience has given you great advice.
Of course that would apply to this posting too so caveat emptor. ;)
Brian
I agree with restless above. In the 20 years of changing oil on cars, and 17 on bikes, I've never used a torque wrench to install a drain plug. Finger tight, and just and just snug it up a bit (yes, relative term) with either the wrench or ratchet. I once used a torque wrench to install a goodridge? banjo bolt on a set of SS lines front brake lines. I set the wrench to the exact spec the service manual stated. Needless to say, the bole cracked before the wrench clicked! :o
Since then, other than cam/crank and wheel axles, I use my built in torque wrench. Haven't broke anything yet/
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Wasnt their a thread a while ago about a recall on those bolts?
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I have mag bolts in both the engine and the rear drive. No issues and I don't use a torque wrench to tighen em either.
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Put me in the group that doesnt really see the need and or reason for a mag bolt.
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That really does look like a poor design. As MOB said, they've cored out the whole center of the threaded portion of the bolt for the placement of the magnet. It looks doomed to fail. I would think any FEA (finite element analysis) would have predicted that.
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Put me in the group that doesnt really see the need and or reason for a mag bolt.
+1 especially a leaking or broken one.
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That really does look like a poor design. As MOB said, they've cored out the whole center of the threaded portion of the bolt for the placement of the magnet. It looks doomed to fail. I would think any FEA (finite element analysis) would have predicted that.
heheheheh
FEA....in this case gold plug uses that term in a different genre "Financial Extraction of Assets"
I see this all the time, all the folks, well, a HUGE portion anyways, of marketers of FARKLES that span a broad application spectrum, seldom analyze the aspects of each individual app...case in point here...while some drain bolts could be bored that dep, to house the SAME magnet they decided to use in all thier plugs, this application has issues due to the fact they compromised 80% of the gripping thread.
Now on to the torque issue...while some may think some egghead just copies this stuff from a chart, and applies it to every fastener accross the board, in a product, it is seldom so.
I'm sure great thought WAS put into the torque spec for the drainbolts on the C14, by test and evaluation of the prudent forces it takes to effect a proper seal using the factory installed bolt, and crush washer. Problem is that it doesn't apply to someones cobbldicked aftermarket part. There is a "Semper Fi" that must be applied, and adhered to, things like this are a blind Robin and will always occurr, because people just don't think about them well...
I'm willing to bet that plug would have ended up the same way by anyone saying they don't need-no-steeeenkeeeeng torque wrench for a drain bolt, simply becaus the 25nm (approx 20lb./ft) that was applied, is exactly the equivalent to what most people DO crank on that bolt using a socket and wratchet, they just don't realize it.... tighten a couple hundred thousand bolts, various sizes, using the Gudentight hand method, and then go and verify what you really tightened them to, you will find you many times actually exceded the rating, and most of the time are right about spot on.....using a hand wrench while laying on a floor upside down grunting, often results in using an effort much higher than most people realize.
Most people easily apply 20 lb/ft on a bolt using a 3/8" drive wratchet wrench without realizing it. Just sayin'.... toss in a 12" long breaker bar with that same socket on it, and see just how much torque you really applied....you'll be surpised to find you may have actually doubled it.... invest in a cheapo Crapsman 3/8" beam torque wrench, or similar, and walk around checking the bolts you hand tightened by trying to loosen them....the readings will likely surprise you.
I do have issues with the torque they printed for the oil filter install though....that was definatly a stupid mistake......I hope they revise the books someday.
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That has been exactly my experience- someone pulls a number from a page in a book and that is the <torque, speed limit of a bearing, max. force that can be applied, etc., etc.>. Besides that, I don't think I have ever known five engineers who would know how to go about calculating the max. allowable torque on a bolt.
The same thing happens with things like wheel bearings: they are rated for much more load and much more speed than can be applied while inside a vehicle, at least used in that way. It is other factors like axle shaft size minimums that force a designer to choose a particular size bearing rather than actually spec'ing the bearing itself.
To the other poster who mentioned FEA, that isn’t even remotely necessary although it could of course be used; one formula and a quick calculation would provide a very accurate answer.
Brian
<snip>
Now on to the torque issue...while some may think some egghead just copies this stuff from a chart, and applies it to every fastener accross the board, in a product, it is seldom so.
<snip>
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Frank O
If you want support Contact Tim at Gold Plug
goldplug@gmail.com
He treated me right in the past
Brent
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Another vote for using my built-in torque wrench with oil drain plugs. Since I also have a mx bike that requires an oil change every 10 hours or less, I do a LOT of oil changes. Never needed a torque wrench for this.
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When I was 16 and bought MY first car, I did exactly what my dad did when I got it home. I changed all the fluids. I got going on the oil and filter. I pulled the drain plug which felt like it had been welded to the pan. I went to pull the filter and it would not budge. I used the three 'universal' wrenches 2 spring type and one that cinched on the filter and nothing would turn it. The filter started to deform, which caused the wrenches to slip. I resorted to the screw driver and hammer. Made one hell of a mess, and I was worried THAT wouldn't get it!
From that oil change forward, I have made it my goal to NEVER over tighten a filter or drain plug. As already mentioned, I haven't had a plug OR a filter back off EVER! And I have changed a LOT of oil! I DID forget to tighten a drain plug once. I drove the car for two days before I noticed the oil drips. Fearing the worst, I crawled under only to find the drain plug finger tight. Must have gotten distracted!!!
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Frank O
If you want support Contact Tim at Gold Plug
goldplug@gmail.com
He treated me right in the past
Brent
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+ 1 If you have problem with the plugs just contact Tim and he will offer you to replace it with the new design ones or refound your money, excellent customer service
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HEY B.D.F. I don't think that any engineer can "calculate" the proper torque on a bolt. Every bolt, every nut has different coatings, so for an engineer to determine the torque required for the fasteners (that he or she is using in their design) they (usually) set up a D.O.E. (Design of experiment) and torque the fasteners while measuring clamp load and bolt stretch...I am starting to ramble here...bottom line is that there are so many variable...sometimes a bolt that is coated with P&O torqued to xx ft/lb will be correct, while the exact same bolt coated with cad plating torqued to the same value will not achieve the necessary clamp load to perform as expected...who konws if the goldplug had the same coating as the factory plug.
Is a magnetic plug really necessaty?
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Put me in the group that doesnt really see the need and or reason for a mag bolt.
+5152 :D :thumbs:
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When I was 16 and bought MY first car, I did exactly what my dad did when I got it home. I changed all the fluids. I got going on the oil and filter. I pulled the drain plug which felt like it had been welded to the pan. I went to pull the filter and it would not budge. I used the three 'universal' wrenches 2 spring type and one that cinched on the filter and nothing would turn it. The filter started to deform, which caused the wrenches to slip. I resorted to the screw driver and hammer. Made one hell of a mess, and I was worried THAT wouldn't get it!
From that oil change forward, I have made it my goal to NEVER over tighten a filter or drain plug. As already mentioned, I haven't had a plug OR a filter back off EVER! And I have changed a LOT of oil! I DID forget to tighten a drain plug once. I drove the car for two days before I noticed the oil drips. Fearing the worst, I crawled under only to find the drain plug finger tight. Must have gotten distracted!!!
The OP didn't overtighten the drain plug, he used a torque wrench to torque the bolt to the specified amount as specified by Kawasaki. The torque specs are not high and should not have sheared off the bolt, period.
No, you don't need to use a torque wrench to tighten a oil drain plug, but I will say that many who do not use one and say they only tighten a little past finger tight, may actually be tightening it more than the torque specified by Kawasaki. You just don't know it.
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It is really pretty straightforward to calculate the tension put on a fastener using torque as a measurement. Of course what you say about the surface and / or coatings (including lube) on a fastener will change the tension for a given torque but the bolt surface and conditions are specified on critical fasteners. The best way to measure tension or bolt stretch is to measure it directly; I used to have a snap gauge that went on small block Chevy con rods to actually measure the bolt stretch (if memory serves, the correct tension occurred at 0.009" of stretch.
Just my opinion but a magnetic plug isn't necessary- that said, they do catch some findings in the engine so they may be useful.
Brian
HEY B.D.F. I don't think that any engineer can "calculate" the proper torque on a bolt. Every bolt, every nut has different coatings, so for an engineer to determine the torque required for the fasteners (that he or she is using in their design) they (usually) set up a D.O.E. (Design of experiment) and torque the fasteners while measuring clamp load and bolt stretch...I am starting to ramble here...bottom line is that there are so many variable...sometimes a bolt that is coated with P&O torqued to xx ft/lb will be correct, while the exact same bolt coated with cad plating torqued to the same value will not achieve the necessary clamp load to perform as expected...who konws if the goldplug had the same coating as the factory plug.
Is a magnetic plug really necessaty?
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Is a magnetic plug really necessaty?
No. That's why I will remove mine the next time I change oil. Magnetic drain plugs are an add. My 84 Toyota had OEM magnetic drain plugs and I never had a problem with them. The Gold Plugs that most riders are installing appear to have problems.
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I haven't found much of anything on mine in the way of particles.. In retrospect, a waste of money.
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I haven't found much of anything on mine in the way of particles.. In retrospect, a waste of money.
Hmmmmmmm.....imagine that! ;)
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If you really think you need a magnet on your plug, stick a magnet on the existing plug.
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I've never used a torque wrench during an oil change on anything I've owned, but I say more power to anyone who wishes to use one for their oil changes. In the field of aviation, torque wrenches are not optional. If there's a torque spec for a fastener or any threaded component (and there almost always is), it must be adhered to. If your torque wrench is set properly, and you're still having trouble getting the desired result, then that's an indication that something else is wrong. In the OP's case, it was an aftermarket part, not made to the same spec's as the OEM part. In my personal experience with torque wrenches used on aircraft, it helps if the torque setting you need falls somewhere in the middle of the range of your wrench. Using one at it's lowest setting or maxing it out can make it difficult to tell if it's giving you the desired result. I know that sounds a little like BS because the whole point of a torque wrench is to eliminate human error based on feel, but I've had trouble when using wrenches on the edge of their range. Another thing to consider is calibration. Torque wrenches have to be calibrated at given intervals in order to guarantee the most accurate results. I'm rambling now. I know the problem was a faulty bolt, but some of this is good gee wizz info for those who prefer to use torque wrenches.
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Oil Filter Magnet
(Nice Shaking Lady)
HSPN SEMA 07 - Filtermag Product Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjssdrZP4t4#)
(Motion Pro)
INDY 2010 - Motion Pro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEPhXsf7mo0#ws)
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I need the filtermag girl to demonstrate that for me in person........please!!!! :hail:
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Why in the H*** would anyone buy a magnet that is specially made to attach to an oil filter when all you would have to do is attach ANY magnet to the filter in order to do the very same thing?
Personally though I do not see ANY valid reason to use a magnet in the first place. My Jetta had 189,000 miles on it and still had good compression when I got rid of it. It ran perfectly and burned no oil. No magnets.
An interesting thought, metal will become magnetized itself, you can rub a small piece of metal with a magnet and magnetize it. So, all those metal shavings accumulate in one place, on a magnetic drain plug, or on a filter, then become magnetized, clump together, then get knocked off en masse and block a passage thus blocking oil flow. Or it fouls up a moving part causing horrible scoring or other damage.
There, I just wanted to give the people who worry about metal particles and magical magnetic solutions something else to keep themselves up at night. For me, I see no reason to add a magnet to my bike, except perhaps on a metal bracket to be used to hold a drawing my daughter made. ::)
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Mmmmm........ BOOBIES!
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Another Goldplug purchaser her. Great news! >:( Haven't used mine yet either and I guess I won't
Regards Torque wrench use, I began using one when I over tighten my rear drive drain plug, (17ft ins) Fortunately only over crushed the crush washer.
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I watched the filtermag video 3 times before I saw the magnet
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I watched the filtermag video 3 times before I saw the magnet
I don't care what she's sellin, I'm buyin!
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I need the filtermag girl to demonstrate that for me in person........please!!!! :hail:
+1...
What was the product she was selling?? (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/boobiesbounce3z.gif) (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/crazy1.gif)
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+1...
What was the product she was selling?? (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/boobiesbounce3z.gif) (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/crazy1.gif)
Boobies?
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I succesfully recovered the remains of the drain bolt thanks to BDF's suggestions. No more magnetic bolts for me. Manufacturer was Gold Plug LLC. Oil pan thread still in perfect condition. Thanks everybody for the replies.
+1
I had the same problem last year, removing the bolt.
Do not use Magnetic Bolts.
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+1
I had the same problem last year, removing the bolt.
Do not use Magnetic Bolts.
Or Gold Plug bolts apparantly.....
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Magnetic drain plugs are kind of like afterburners in an FA-18 fighter...you really don't need them......but nice to know they are there....no more weight, don't require more HP, and they may just pick up something along the way to help keep those rod and main bearings nice and clean ........
I used to work in a machine shop and one of my jobs was to tear apart engines for rebuilding...you wouldn't believe what is inside some of these oil pans and how some of these motors look that people really don't take real good care of.
I know the motorcyclist is finiky about his bike for the most part...so good routine maintenance oil and filter probably won't have any affect on the average biker.....but why have a louder horn when a stock one will do...why use PR-3's instead of stock.....cause it just may be a little bitty help along the way.......
Everyone has opinions ...this is why this is such a great site to share ideas.....
Pay your money and make your choices...
Ninja