Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: Walker18 on January 06, 2013, 10:34:58 PM
-
Doesn't this just get your goat..
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.asp#OQkSjhCV1rZVTWTr.03 (http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.asp#OQkSjhCV1rZVTWTr.03)
Whatever happened to the 'whole' story, true journalism, pride and credit for delivering the truth.
I guess if the story can't be twisted to support the current potus agenda, then it's squashed.
This is the second story since the Sandy Hook incident that involved a ccw stopping a mass shooting,
maybe their afraid that this type of heroism just might catch on...
-
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html (http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html)
Not much about CC Nick Meli confronting the Clackamas mall shooter either - in both of these cases the good guy made the difference; mass shooting was averted; but because it wasn't "horrific" little effort goes into reporting.
And since both of these had "gun on gun" in crowded areas, and no collateral injuries reported, what does that do to the argument that concealed carry would result in MORE casualties? The facts certainly don't support it, But lets' not confuse anyone with facts :o Steve
-
Where's 'Bert'?
-
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html (http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html)
Not much about CC Nick Meli confronting the Clackamas mall shooter either - in both of these cases the good guy made the difference; mass shooting was averted; but because it wasn't "horrific" little effort goes into reporting.
And since both of these had "gun on gun" in crowded areas, and no collateral injuries reported, what does that do to the argument that concealed carry would result in MORE casualties? The facts certainly don't support it, But lets' not confuse anyone with facts :o Steve
That was the other incident, Steve.. When the shooter saw that a good citizen had the bead on him, he saved us all allot of time and money
by jumping to the last chapter in his agenda, and ending his own life. But again, hardly any coverage by the media. Kind of surprised that the
media didn't even try to put a vigilante spin on these.. Give it a little more time..
-
they can't use "vigilante" on the theater shooting because it was an off - duty police officer hired as security, so no value in that story at all.
In fact the only spin media can use is that the theater shooting story supports their agenda that only police should have guns. Steve
-
If somebody shoots someone else over here it gets reported in all the national media.
But then y'all have so many shootings what difference does one more make?
In 2012 the USA had 3.7 firearm murders per 100,000 population.
In 2012 the UK had 0.04 firearm murders per 100,000 population.
Both figures exclude suicides and unintentional killings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate)
Now tell me that gun control doesn't work.
BRING ON THE FLAMES! ;D
-
If somebody shoots someone else over here it gets reported in all the national media.
But then y'all have so many shootings what difference does one more make?
In 2012 the USA had 3.7 firearm murders per 100,000 population.
In 2012 the UK had 0.04 firearm murders per 100,000 population.
Both figures exclude suicides and unintentional killings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate)
Now tell me that gun control doesn't work.
BRING ON THE FLAMES! ;D
No flames Boomer, different countries, you do it your way, we do it ours. In fact, here's a nice story about your home invasion crimes http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3613417/An-Englishmans-home-is-his-dungeon.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3613417/An-Englishmans-home-is-his-dungeon.html) . Remember that we Americans have a saying that dates back to our little disagreement with y'all a couple hundred years ago "live free or die". Personally, I refuse to live in fear, or with prison bars on my home windows. steve
-
If you want me to believe those numbers you'll have to get them from the original source, NOT wikipedia.org. ;D
-
Here ya go, FBI statistics for 2011 - seems it isn't supported by the wikipedia numbers. Who do you believe? http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20) Steve
-
Guns are practically in our DNA. Even if they were to completely ban all weapons, I would think a majority of them will have been stolen or something. That is among the law abiding citizen. The criminals won't care. They will continue to use weapons against us and we wouldn't have the legal ability to defend ourselves.
I just heard a story on the radio about a women that was at home with her children. Someone was knocking on her door but she didn't answer. The person continued knocking and when nobody answered he then took out his crowbar and busted open the door. When he did that the woman took her two kids and went into the attic. The burglar went thru the entire house and for the last place to look then went into the attic. She happened to take her gun with her and used all 6 shots but only hit 5. It was enough though. After crying on the ground for a bit he managed to get out of the house, get in his car, drove a few houses down, pulled into someones driveway and died.
Now this guy had a crowbar and for all anybody know he could have used it to bludgeon them all to death.
The stats you show only show part of the problem. Sure, you have fewer guns deaths, but since the gun ban gun crime has gone up 35% and violent crime has gone up dramatically. I have also seen some stats that show that since the ban in 1968 in England and Wales, homicides have gone up 52% and since the 1997 ban it has gone up 15%. Because of the ways the British police are reporting crimes the numbers are most likely much higher.
(http://www.gunssavelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/leagueofshame.jpg)
http://www.saf.org/journal/16/guncontrolinengland.pdf (http://www.saf.org/journal/16/guncontrolinengland.pdf)
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities)
-
Boomer - Go to the link you posted, find the citation credited with the US' fireams death rate. it's this
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm)
Click on that link, and you'll find it DOES show a 3.7 / 100,000 rate for firearm death, HOWEVER it includes ALL deaths, suicides and accidents included for 2009 . YOUR LINK says the 3.7/100,000 does NOT include suicides and accidents - when referring to the original source they derived their "facts" from, we see that is a lie. Steve
-
I am not trying to say anything bad about my fellow 'Mercans, but how many other countries spent $23 million dollars on chainsaw murder movies last weekend? How many impressionable kids sat through this junk? How many people who see this can't tell the difference between movies and reality? The fact is we are a violent country, a violent society and we love to watch violence.
http://www.komonews.com/news/entertainment/Chainsaw-3-D-carves-out-No-1-debut-with-23-million-185807012.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/entertainment/Chainsaw-3-D-carves-out-No-1-debut-with-23-million-185807012.html)
If you believe that this type of crap leads to desensitizing towards violence (some do, some don't) then can you wonder why we have the propensity toward it? Many of our cities can't afford proper schools, textbooks, mental health care, etc., because "we" can't afford or refuse to pay the taxes or fees associated with social programs and education, but we always seem to find money for this crap. I have not gone to a movie since I saw "Saving Private Ryan" when it first came to theathers, whenever that was. If we as a society contributed the same amount of money to the Treasury or the educational system as we do to supporting violent Hollywood CRAP, we could retire the national debt, fully fund a national health care system and get help for the mental whackos who want to do mass murder for real rather than just watch it on the silver screen. That's always assuming ofcourse that the money wouldn't be stolen or otherwise misused (not that that ever happens). Every week the people of this country waste a couple of hundred million dollars supporting the industry that teaches us how to commit violent atrocites. What else do you expect?
-
Guns are practically in our DNA. Even if they were to completely ban all weapons, I would think a majority of them will have been stolen or something. That is among the law abiding citizen. The criminals won't care. They will continue to use weapons against us and we wouldn't have the legal ability to defend ourselves.
I just heard a story on the radio about a women that was at home with her children. Someone was knocking on her door but she didn't answer. The person continued knocking and when nobody answered he then took out his crowbar and busted open the door. When he did that the woman took her two kids and went into the attic. The burglar went thru the entire house and for the last place to look then went into the attic. She happened to take her gun with her and used all 6 shots but only hit 5. It was enough though. After crying on the ground for a bit he managed to get out of the house, get in his car, drove a few houses down, pulled into someones driveway and died.
Now this guy had a crowbar and for all anybody know he could have used it to bludgeon them all to death.
The stats you show only show part of the problem. Sure, you have fewer guns deaths, but since the gun ban gun crime has gone up 35% and violent crime has gone up dramatically. I have also seen some stats that show that since the ban in 1968 in England and Wales, homicides have gone up 52% and since the 1997 ban it has gone up 15%. Because of the ways the British police are reporting crimes the numbers are most likely much higher.
(http://www.gunssavelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/leagueofshame.jpg)
http://www.saf.org/journal/16/guncontrolinengland.pdf (http://www.saf.org/journal/16/guncontrolinengland.pdf)
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities)
Truth. The only thing she did wrong was miss him once. The other 5 went into his head and neck. Story said he cried and begged her not to shoot him anymore. Then he got in his car and crashed at the entrance to the subdivision. Threat ended. .38 Special at close range.
-
We are, as a society raising (or should I say, allowing to grow) a subculture of people like this, who have absolutely no limits on mayhem and cruelty. We haven't heard the last of these two upstanding young gentlemen, I'll betcha.
WARNING - GRAPHIC
http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/12/30/will-jack-russell-puppy-finally-inspire-ny-get-tough-about-animal-abuse?cmpid=tp-ad-outbrain-general (http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/12/30/will-jack-russell-puppy-finally-inspire-ny-get-tough-about-animal-abuse?cmpid=tp-ad-outbrain-general)
-
I just heard a story on the radio about a women that was at home with her children. Someone was knocking on her door but she didn't answer. The person continued knocking and when nobody answered he then took out his crowbar and busted open the door. When he did that the woman took her two kids and went into the attic. The burglar went thru the entire house and for the last place to look then went into the attic. She happened to take her gun with her and used all 6 shots but only hit 5. It was enough though. After crying on the ground for a bit he managed to get out of the house, get in his car, drove a few houses down, pulled into someones driveway and died.
Yhat happened in Loganville, Ga, not far outside of Atlanta. He didn't die but he's not doing too well.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/cops-suspect-shot-by-loganville-mom-had-cased-anot/nTpkR/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/cops-suspect-shot-by-loganville-mom-had-cased-anot/nTpkR/)
-
And now we have a school superintendent who wants to DISARM the existing POLICE and school security officers who patrol the schools in Shoreline, WA. The insanity of this is just unfathomable. Mass hysteria and media brainwashing.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Plan-would-disarm-police-security-guards-in-local-district-185952902.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Plan-would-disarm-police-security-guards-in-local-district-185952902.html)
-
Quote from article:
"...and authorities find guns smuggled into schools a couple of times each year, on average. Despite that miniscule percentage of armed students..."
:o :o :o
-
And now we have a school superintendent who wants to DISARM the existing POLICE and school security officers who patrol the schools in Shoreline, WA. The insanity of this is just unfathomable. Mass hysteria and media brainwashing.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Plan-would-disarm-police-security-guards-in-local-district-185952902.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Plan-would-disarm-police-security-guards-in-local-district-185952902.html)
That's the most stupid thing I've heard all day...but the day is young.
-
Boomer - Go to the link you posted, find the citation credited with the US' fireams death rate. it's this
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm)
Click on that link, and you'll find it DOES show a 3.7 / 100,000 rate for firearm death, HOWEVER it includes ALL deaths, suicides and accidents included for 2009 . YOUR LINK says the 3.7/100,000 does NOT include suicides and accidents - when referring to the original source they derived their "facts" from, we see that is a lie. Steve
The report quotes "Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms . .(*U01.4,X93–X95) 11,493" (page 39)
So, 11,493 out of a population of 307,006,550 (page 107) that is 3.74 per 100,000 population.
That EXCLUDES "Intentional self-harm (suicide) by discharge of firearms. . . (X72–X74) 18,735" and "Accidental discharge of firearms. . (W32–W34) 554" which are detailed separately on page 39.
So, not a lie.
Last year (April 2011 to March 2012) England and Wales had a TOTAL Homicide figure of 551 for our 56.1 million population.
Just less than 1 per 100,000 and just over HALF of what it was 10 years ago.
As for the violent crime figures we had 1.9 million reports of violent crimes in the same time period.
For the USA for 2011 is is estimated to be 1.2 million but then ya have 5 times England & Wales population which makes the UK look like fist-fight central.
However, our Stats include minor assaults such as pushing and shoving that result in no physical harm as an example.
Figures like this are far harder to compare because both countries collect and measure in totally different ways.
Violent crime did increase in the UK in the 60's to 90's period by between 2-3% per year.
Since 2000 this has been decreasing quite dramatically every year, the same as it has in the USA.
One theory is that eliminating lead from gasoline has caused this decrease. Lead is known to cause violent behaviour.
Y'all banned leaded gas way before we did.
-
And now we have a school superintendent who wants to DISARM the existing POLICE and school security officers who patrol the schools in Shoreline, WA. The insanity of this is just unfathomable. Mass hysteria and media brainwashing.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Plan-would-disarm-police-security-guards-in-local-district-185952902.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Plan-would-disarm-police-security-guards-in-local-district-185952902.html)
This article deserves it's own thread, being that there is so much controversy and 'knee-jerking' reactions ongoing throughout the country,
with the recent Sandy Hook ES incident. Several articles are beginning to surface on the sensitive subject on educational facility security programs,
and which direction should be traveled, and by whom.
Here is and article written a year and a half ago by Doug Wyllie, PoliceOne Editor in Chief, titled "Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial"
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial/ (http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial/)
An excellent read, with concrete arguments concerning todays pivotal decisions on arming or dis-arming school zones. Also by the same author are updated articles written since the Sandy Hook incident.
http://www.policeone.com/police/news-reports/6065082-Newtown-Elementary-School-Shooting (http://www.policeone.com/police/news-reports/6065082-Newtown-Elementary-School-Shooting)
-
Boomer, well that's a pretty big separation of statistics CDC vs FBI. Of course the CDC is counting all deaths , the FBI is counting murders, so considering we are at war and soldiers die but aren't listed as murders, then you can see how the the "firearm death" rate is going to get skewed.
Even if we call both numbers valid, there's about a 3000 death reduction for 2011. I think the numbers posted on the CDC tables were drawn from 2004 (I saw that on there) so either we have become about 25% "kinder and gentler" or the war connected firearm deaths have something to do with the numbers.
I honestly think that since this discussion is about VIOLENT CRIME then the FBI statistics are the ones to use as they are strictly about murder and what type of weapon was used.
I also have 2 personal thoughts about this discussion:
1) I think the video game / movie connection cannot be overplayed. When we (Americans) were kids we played "cowboys and indians" or "cops and robbers" because that's what we saw on TV. The aurora shooting coward had his hair dyed red and claimed he was "the joker" from the "Batman" movies. We saw several "joker" copycat cowards get arrested immediately after his arrest. The coward in the Clackamas mall shooting was yelling "I AM THE SHOOTER" while firing upon the shoppers. I bet there's some connection to that statement in a video game.
2) I don't like discussing this so much with non-Americans. That's not to put you down in any way, but this is OUR PROBLEM and we need to find OUR SOLUTION. Case in point - the same day the idiot coward killed all the kids in the Connecticut school, another idiot coward in China went on a rampage and slashed 22 or 23 kids at a school in China. But what did China's government do? they called for the American government to disarm us. So here's what I say to that - WHEN ANOTHER COUNTRY CALLS YOU TO LAY DOWN YOUR ARMS, THAT'S WHEN YOU NEED TO PICK THEM UP. Case closed. JMO, Steve
-
Steve, I'm not an advocate of blanket gun control. We have plenty of gun owners over here.
But some kind of control to prevent the nutters from getting and using guns isn't a bad thing.
I think we have a higher level of knife crime here simply because of the comparative scarcity of guns.
If they ban knives completely, the nutters will just use sharpened screwdrivers or something else.
However, it's a lot harder to kill with a knife or a screwdriver. Easy peasy with a gun.
I used to take out rabbits with a .22 from 300feet away over 40 years ago.
The one big change since Sandy Hook is that many more people seem to be admitting that there is a problem.
Once ya admit there is a problem, then y'all are on the road to finding a solution.
It will be your solution to be sure, and if it doesn't work, then y'all will end up trying something else.
We did, several times over and it sure ain't perfect yet.
One thing is certain, and that is that burying yer head in the sand and hoping it will go away never works.
-
I agree that there is a problem, but the problem isn't the guns, it is the people behind the guns. Deal with the people, not the guns. JMO
-
Agreed, and the idea of owners being more responsible in securing is a good start. i have a safe, but I will admit a have been lax with my CC firearm. My Christmas present to myself was a touchpad Gunvault. Yes, Sandy Hook got my attention too. Steve
-
I am not trying to say anything bad about my fellow 'Mercans, but how many other countries spent $23 million dollars on chainsaw murder movies last weekend? How many impressionable kids sat through this junk? How many people who see this can't tell the difference between movies and reality? The fact is we are a violent country, a violent society and we love to watch violence.
[
Really? Remember the old black & white movies like "Creature from the Black Lagoon"? There's been horror movies since movies were first invented. And Westerns- those had lots of shooting and fighting too. I watched them all, not to mention Rambo, Terminator, and the likes. No, blaming any act of insanity on movies, video games, whatever, is disengenuous and plain wrong. I think there's a glaring problem staring us in the face right now. If you look at the 2 boys who shot up Columbine, the guy in Aurora, this fella in Sandy Hook, you'll find they were (or had recently been) on some sort of anti-depressant drugs. Parents use them to control their kids, teachers advocate them to control the kids in their classrooms. I do believe there's a connection somewhere.
-
+1 :thumbs:
-
+2 :thumbs:
-
Like Boomer said (and others agreed).
Sandy Hook made many (including myself) agree that there is a problem and something needs to be done.
I don't know what that solution is.
My first thought is we don't need more laws, we need to see that the existing Gun Laws are strictly enforced.
Secondly; If a person uses a gun in a crime, "that person" should be punished severely, not "all" gun owners.
Having said that, i just realized that I don't know all the gun laws.
Heck, (as a long time gun owner) I may be breaking gun laws that I'm not even aware of??
Maybe a first step is; make sure that the present gun laws are known (and the punishment a person will receive for breaking them)..
Ride safe, Ted
-
+3 on the anti-depressant drugs.
This will save more lives then any additional gun laws.
-
From the greatest President.
"The gun has been called the great equalizer, meaning that a small person with a gun is equal to a large person, but it is a great equalizer in another way, too.
It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed. When the
British forgot that they got a revolution. And, as a result, we Americans got a Constitution; a Constitution that, as those who wrote it were determined, would
keep men free. If we give up part of that Constitution we give up part of our freedom and increase the chance that we will lose it all."
--Ronald Reagan
If it wasn't for our 2nd amendment, the shooter wouldn't have been 'neutralized', and another tragedy would have been in the books..