Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: tim61 on December 23, 2012, 12:23:25 PM
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Happy Holidays, All!
A little backgound to start my story. I am an amatuer road racer, and have been involved in motorcycle road racing for the better part of 30 years. In that time, I have often yearned to have a sport touring bike to explore the world on. But, alas, every year I manage to get myself buried in racing, and another season goes by with no sport touring. I decided that this had to change. Do it now, or it may never happen, right?
So, I bought an '09 C-14 late last Spring with 3k miles on it. The original tires were already shagged, and got a LOT worse in the first weeks I rode it. Keep in mind that I avoid the freeway at all costs. Backroads and corners for me, please!
I turned to local suspension guru, Barry Wressel of GP Suspension/KFG Racing, for help in transferring this beast into something that handled as well as it accelerated and looked. Barry has done the suspension on a couple of my favorite race bikes, and I knew if anyone could tame the C-14, Barry was the man for the job.
The first order of business was to replace the dead Bridgestones. After much research, I decided to try a set of Michelin Pilot Road 3's. The handling was improved 110%. While still not what I was hoping for, the C-14 was now a much more potent backroad weapon. Barry adjusted what he could on the stock suspension, and off I went.
I proceeded to pile on 6k miles in 2 months. Less than 1,000 of those miles came on the freeway. The majority came on the Pacific Coast Highway and the backroads of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana. While the handling was a lot better, it seemed I was needing to run what I considered fairly high tire pressures to maintain the front feel I was looking for (41-42 psi cold). Anything less and the C-14 felt like it wanted to flop over on turn in, and took a fair amount of counter steering to maintain a line in a corner. This feeling got worse as the Michelins wore. By the end of 6k miles, the handling was back to where it was when I bought the bike.
I was/am also working on a budget. Racing, house remodeling and life in general means I do not have the funds for an all out mega dollar suspension. But, I also can't afford to replace tires every 5-6k miles either! I need something that will handle well and not kill tires as quickly as the stock C-14.
And so it was decided to see what we could do with the suspension without breaking the bank. GP Suspensions is well known for creating "cartridge kits" that transform the marginal stock internals of Japanese sportbikes into full race caliber suspensions. After consulting with Barry, it was decided that GP Suspensions would engineer a kit for the C-14, and then we would investigate affordable, quality options for the rear shock.
I pulled the forks and delivered them to GP last week. I just got a call late yesterday that the forks are ready to go. Now we need to order a shock. I am leaning towards the least expensive Penske, as the best handling racebikes I have ever been on used Penske.
I hope to have everything ready for some winter testing in a few weeks. I will post the results here if anyone else is interested in options for getting their Super Sleds to handle!
Thanks, and have a Great Holiday Season!
Tim
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Keep in mind the 14 is not a svelte sportbike. You are pushing a LOT a weight into the corners. I run pr3's at 42 cold and get about the same mileage you are reporting.
Please get back with more info on your front suspension mods.
Welcome to the forum.
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it seemed I was needing to run what I considered fairly high tire pressures to maintain the front feel I was looking for (41-42 psi cold). Anything less and the C-14 felt like it wanted to flop over on turn in, and took a fair amount of counter steering to maintain a line in a corner.
42 cold is the factory recommended pressure for both front and rear, so that is not "fairly high" :) The 1.4 liter Concours is a big, heavy bike!
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Don't forget a 55 profile tire on the rear.
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Don't forget a 55 profile tire on the rear.
^^^yes^^^
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....... I will post the results here if anyone else is interested in options for getting their Super Sleds to handle!....
Subscribed!
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:popcorn:
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I too have to do something with the stock suspension on my C14. I really do not like it. The tire mileage is not issue as that is what I get on my C10 with PR3's.
How much to get your front forks done and what did they do to them? The stock rear shock sucks.
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I have fiddles with mine until my fingers are sore and am not happy with it either. Let us know how it goes and rough cost if you would please. Welcome to the madness. ;D
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And so it was decided to see what we could do with the suspension without breaking the bank. GP Suspensions is well known for creating "cartridge kits" that transform the marginal stock internals of Japanese sportbikes into full race caliber suspensions. After consulting with Barry, it was decided that GP Suspensions would engineer a kit for the C-14, and then we would investigate affordable, quality options for the rear shock.
I pulled the forks and delivered them to GP last week. I just got a call late yesterday that the forks are ready to go. Now we need to order a shock. I am leaning towards the least expensive Penske, as the best handling racebikes I have ever been on used Penske.
I would think Barry's work on the forks would be pretty easy since Dave Hodges had already developed a cartridge kit for the C14 and I heard it was very good. Penske has a new economy shock without an external reservoir but the cost is only $100 less than the double adjustable 8983....I don't think its worth going the cheapo route and losing the adjustable compression damping just to save $100. Its a good project and I am looking forward to hearing the results.
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I guess I worded that rather poorly. What I meant to say was that in order to get anything close to the front "feel" I was looking for, I needed to run the pressure at the recommended 42 psi cold. If the pressure dropped by as little as a single psi during the course of a long, multi-day ride, the handling degraded significantly. And, as the tires began to wear, acceptable handling (in my opinion) went away, rather quickly. Too quickly, for me. The wear pattern in the tires was odd as well. The center stayed fairly tall and wore smoothly, but the shoulders went away very quickly, and had heavy deflection wear in the tread, likely due to excessive weight load. But, Barry also felt that better control of the suspension on both ends could significantly reduce both of these issues.
And, yes, that rear shock does suck!
I am going to pick up the forks and order a shock tomorrow morning, so I should be able to post an idea of the cost ASAP. The results of the works will take a while to thoroughly test, though.
Tim
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This is the best stock suspension I have ever been on, so glad I don't feel the need to drop big bucks on improving it.
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This is the best stock suspension I have ever been on, so glad I don't feel the need to drop big bucks on improving it.
Some of us are spoiled and once you know what a really good suspension feels like specially during aggressive riding then it does suck to now have to go spend even more money to get the bike to where you like it. Right now I don't like it .
I have heard many people say the stock C10 suspension was fantastic. NOT!! and my new KLR, wow, it was so bad people laughed really hard at me because I would stop hard and the bike continued to rock back and forth like a child's hobby horse. Both my C10 and my KLR now have much better suspension and handling because I completely overhauled those suspensions.The KLR feels nothing like the stock bike it was thanks to the Super Moab Shock.
I like the C14, it is pretty quick and comfortable but it pogos like crazy even on good roads here in Florida. I cant wait to get this thing fixed.
So exactly what rear shock should I buy? a Penske dual? from Traxxion i assume. I would buy an Ohlins but man they are pricey.
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Barry will be posting up soon I hope. But in the mean time, I can report that the shock we are going to try is a brand new Penske that has no remote resevior, but does have both compression and rebound adjustments and adjustable ride height. They just came out, and retail is something like $800 with the adjustable ride height. Big bucks, but in the world of shocks, I know you get what you pay for. Having raced with both Penske and Ohlins, I can say my personal preference is Penske, but that is just my opinion.
I hear you on the KLR. What a joke that suspension is!! My 08 KLR was scary at anything over 55 mph. Best thing I ever did was trade it in on my C-14!
Tim
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Has anyone have experience with Traxxion Dynamics and the C14? I used the Traxxion on my 03 Goldwing and it was truly amazing...so I'm considering it for my C14.
Dave
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My last bike was A Vstrom 1000, and trust me when I say the C14 is worlds apart better. I get no pogo action riding aggressively like you are describing, and Ohio isn't flat like Florida. ;)
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Big bucks, but in the world of shocks, I know you get what you pay for.
Get the Ohlins, trust me you won't be disappointed. :) :thumbs: :thumbs:
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.150 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.150)
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Has anyone have experience with Traxxion Dynamics and the C14? I used the Traxxion on my 03 Goldwing and it was truly amazing...so I'm considering it for my C14.
Dave
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=search2 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=search2)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2)
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Has anyone have experience with Traxxion Dynamics and the C14? I used the Traxxion on my 03 Goldwing and it was truly amazing...so I'm considering it for my C14.
Dave
I have the traxion ak20 cartridges and springs. I told them I wanted compliant but controlled,they hit it on the nose.I set it up the way they suggested and it works great,especially with the ohlins rear shock. ;D
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Get the Ohlins, trust me you won't be disappointed. :) :thumbs: :thumbs:
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.150 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.150)
I had the AK20's and the Penske Shock on my Wing and they were great. I cannot afford the setup on my C14 but I would buy them if I could. Then again the Ohlins setup would be nice if I were as rich as Jay.
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Then again the Ohlins setup would be nice if I were as rich as Jay.
Nope, not rich TJ, just priorities... Ohlins suspension and PB&J/TopRamen for all meals... ;) ;D 8)
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So what do you have on the horizon? ;D
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Sorry for the delay. The holidays always seem to put my projects on hold!!
Anyhow...here are the numbers. The fork revalve kit which replaces the compression and rebound cartridges with ones that are much more adjustable runs $186.00. The replacement fork springs run $110.00. With labor, seals, oil, waste fees, etc. the total for the fork mod installed is $361.00.
For that amount you get adjustable compression, rebound, and quality progressive fork springs. Barry convinced me tire life would be improved through better, more accurate fork control. While I am no expert, if I understand correctly, the stock set-up is a series of compromises that leads to excessive tire wear. The stock for has limited damping control. So, as a band-aid, Kawasaki installs a really stiff spring in an attempt to control compression, but that heavy spring in turn puts heavy loads on the tire. With better control of the damping, you can run a lighter spring and put less force on the tire.
The shock I am going to try is the new Penske 8975 series. This shock has adjustable compression and rebound without the need for an external resevoir. Too cool! It has the new "floating piston" design, with adjustable preload, adjustable rebound, adjustable compression, and adjustable high speed compression. And we ordered it with the all important adjustable ride height.
The 8975 runs $725.00. The adjustable ride height option is an additional $75.00. Pretty amazing when you consider that entry level aftermarket shocks like Progressive run something like $500-$600.
In order to get a fair comparison, I am not replacing everything all at once. One thing I learned from years of racing is that you don't want to change more than one thing at a time, so you know if it worked or not! First up, I am going to re-install the forks and ride it a few weeks with the stock shock. Then I will add the shock and see how that changes things.
Lastly, I want to be clear I am not trying to start a debate on GP vs. Traxxion, Ohlins vs. Penske, etc., etc. I am just reporting what I have tried. I am certain there are many options on the market that can improve upon the OEM suspension.
Ok, now back to the shop. This forum stuff takes way too much time away from wrench stuff!
Happy New Year!
Tim
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Thanks for the update Tim. Keep'em coming.
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Thanks so much for the update. I spent yesterday riding my C14 down to Titusville for the Last Blast and today I rode my C10 on the same roads.
The C10 , (all upgraded suspension) is much more compliant than the stock c14 (and I have stiff 1.2kg front springs with gold emulators and a new ZZR1200 rear shock which I think I will sell and put back the Progressive shock I just removed-the Progressive is better)
So what I am saying is I gotta do something with this C14. I miss the C14's power when I ride the my C10 and I miss the compliant ride on bumps when I am on the C14. The C14 is pounding me constantly.
So , I think I need to start with the easy one, the rear spring/shock. $725+ 75 for ride height option or $1,0xx.00 for the Ohlins? hmmm.. what to do?
I thought pre-load and ride height were the same thing.
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http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.0)
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Anyhow...here are the numbers. The fork revalve kit which replaces the compression and rebound cartridges with ones that are much more adjustable runs $186.00. The replacement fork springs run $110.00. With labor, seals, oil, waste fees, etc. the total for the fork mod installed is $361.00.
For that amount you get adjustable compression, rebound, and quality progressive fork springs.
The shock I am going to try is the new Penske 8975 series. This shock has adjustable compression and rebound without the need for an external resevoir. Too cool! It has the new "floating piston" design, with adjustable preload, adjustable rebound, adjustable compression, and adjustable high speed compression. And we ordered it with the all important adjustable ride height.
The 8975 runs $725.00. The adjustable ride height option is an additional $75.00.
Thank you for the update. How are you getting adjustable compression damping on the forks? Is this similar to Traxxion with compression adjustment on one leg and rebound adjustment on the other leg?
Regarding the shock, I have reviewed all of Penske's literature about the 8975 and can't find anything indicating that it has adjustable high speed compression damping, it is actually called the Street Double which also suggests there are only 2 damping adjustments. Does the $725 price include the $75 ride height option? The reason I am asking is that it isn't too hard to find the 8983 with external reservoir and ride height option for $800 or a little less.
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Thank you for the update. How are you getting adjustable compression damping on the forks? Is this similar to Traxxion with compression adjustment on one leg and rebound adjustment on the other leg?
Regarding the shock, I have reviewed all of Penske's literature about the 8975 and can't find anything indicating that it has adjustable high speed compression damping, it is actually called the Street Double which also suggests there are only 2 damping adjustments. Does the $725 price include the $75 ride height option? The reason I am asking is that it isn't too hard to find the 8983 with external reservoir and ride height option for $800 or a little less.
I got the info I posted directly off of Penske literature. It says Adjustable Rebound (40 clicks+), Adjustable Compression (40 clicks+), and Adjustable High Speed Compression (65 clicks). I don't actually have the shock in my hands yet, so I can't verify the literatures claims.
The adjustable compression and rebound in the fork kit is accomplished through shim stacks in the cartridges. The rebound damping is adjusted the same as a stock fork with the adjuster mounted on the fork cap. The compression adjustment is achieved through altering shims in the compression cartridge. It is not externally adjustable like a ZX1400. This mod would have been prohibitively expensive. And the damping adjustments are the same for both forks.
Tim
P.S. The shock is $725. The ride height adjustment option is an additional $75
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Thanks so much for the update. I spent yesterday riding my C14 down to Titusville for the Last Blast and today I rode my C10 on the same roads.
The C10 , (all upgraded suspension) is much more compliant than the stock c14 (and I have stiff 1.2kg front springs with gold emulators and a new ZZR1200 rear shock which I think I will sell and put back the Progressive shock I just removed-the Progressive is better)
So what I am saying is I gotta do something with this C14. I miss the C14's power when I ride the my C10 and I miss the compliant ride on bumps when I am on the C14. The C14 is pounding me constantly.
So , I think I need to start with the easy one, the rear spring/shock. $725+ 75 for ride height option or $1,0xx.00 for the Ohlins? hmmm.. what to do?
I thought pre-load and ride height were the same thing.
Spring pre-load and ride height are not the same, although I can see how they could be confused. The pre-load is used to set your suspension sag, while the ride height can raise (or lower) the back of the bike, thereby changing the effective rake of the front fork geometry. You could acheive that by cranking up the preload, but then it would be sprung too stiff and would no be compliant. The correct way would be to set your suspension sag with the pre-load, and alter the height with the ride height adjuster. Basically, the adjuster lengthens or shortens the oevrall length of the shock.
Gawd, that almost sounds like I know what I am talking about! I don't, really. But I know if you can raise the back of the bike, a couple cool things can happen. You can transfer more weight to the front of the bike, so it turns in better, and you can steepen the rake, so the bike turns in quicker and can flip back and forth quicker and easier. All the way up to the point where you raise it too far and it gets real nervous under hard braking or at high speeds.
The simple explanation is that on all my really good race bikes, the final icing on the cake came when we got the ride height dialed in. That is when the real magic happened, because everything becomes very balanced and stable, yet quick and aggressive.
Tim
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http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10019.0)
That is a REALLY cool set-up! I have a very similar suspension on my 2006 Honda RS125GP. And I absolutely love it.
But, it is also more than double what I was hoping to spend on my street bike. But, if you have the cash, it is pretty hard to go wrong with a full race suspension!
Tim
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I got the info I posted directly off of Penske literature. It says Adjustable Rebound (40 clicks+), Adjustable Compression (40 clicks+), and Adjustable High Speed Compression (65 clicks). I don't actually have the shock in my hands yet, so I can't verify the literatures claims.
The adjustable compression and rebound in the fork kit is accomplished through shim stacks in the cartridges. The rebound damping is adjusted the same as a stock fork with the adjuster mounted on the fork cap. The compression adjustment is achieved through altering shims in the compression cartridge. It is not externally adjustable like a ZX1400. This mod would have been prohibitively expensive. And the damping adjustments are the same for both forks.
Its not worth arguing about but when I go to the Penske website (http://www.penskeshocks.com/Motorcycle-8975_Series.php (http://www.penskeshocks.com/Motorcycle-8975_Series.php)) the 8975DB shock has only two damping adjustments. The shock you are describing sounds like the 8970 Formula One Shock which has an external reservoir and costs about $1600. As you said, we will find out when you have the shock in your hands. Regarding the forks, I don't know how you can say they have adjustable compression damping when the only way to change that damping is to change the internal shim stacks, and that is commonly referred to as re-valving.
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Spring pre-load and ride height are not the same, although I can see how they could be confused. The pre-load is used to set your suspension sag, while the ride height can raise (or lower) the back of the bike, thereby changing the effective rake of the front fork geometry. You could acheive that by cranking up the preload, but then it would be sprung too stiff and would no be compliant. The correct way would be to set your suspension sag with the pre-load, and alter the height with the ride height adjuster. Basically, the adjuster lengthens or shortens the oevrall length of the shock.
Gawd, that almost sounds like I know what I am talking about! I don't, really.
No, you really don't. Preload does not make a spring stiffer (http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/preload_tech_article.php (http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/preload_tech_article.php)), it just changes the amount of force it takes to initially make the spring compress. Once the rider's weight is put on the shock, the spring's total compression will be the same as it was before the spring was preloaded. Preload does change suspension sag but the purpose of setting sag is to achieve the correct ride height after the rider's weight is added (sag also tells you how much travel is being used and how much is left). You can achieve the same result by using a ride height adjuster although preload has a secondary benefit in that it increases the amount of available travel after the riders weight is added.....which allows the spring to compress further (than before preload)....and that gives more spring resistance at the end of the stroke....helping to prevent the suspension from bottoming if the spring rate is softer than it should be.
If you are using the correct spring rate then your sag should also be correct, bottoming should not be a problem, and ride height (assuming you have ride height) should be used to fine tune the steering geometry.
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Ok. Thanks jsa. I got it now. I had to read some more to understand ride height. Most every bike does not have a ride height adjustment so we use pre-load to do two things. Set the sag correctly which puts the stroke of the shock in the correct position for proper travel. You don't want to run out of travel up or down but you do want to try and use most or all of it. Hopefully when using the correct rims and tires the ride height is close after setting the correct sag because most of us dont have a ride height adjustment.
Ride height adjustor leaves the sag the same but changes the chassis geometry. That makes sense. I may want to use very low profile tires (or smaller diameter rim) so I would need to increase ride height to restore proper geometry and not change the sag as that was already correctly setup.
Got it!!
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Subscribed.
I'm interested to hear the results...saving my pennies to do something.
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Just reading this it sounds a little odd but I dont know enought to even be dangerouse. Please post up some info.
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The forks are installed and I have only had a chance to ride it once, so I won't comment on my impressions yet. But, lets just say things are looking VERY favorable at this point. 8)
Tim
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Wow! I can't believe it has been 11 months since my last post!
UPDATE.....
I decided to install the modded forks and Penske shock and leave everything else as is. Didn't want to throw on new tires and then tell everyone how awesome the suspension is. So I left the shagged, cupped Road 3's.
First thoughts were that the suspension is much more supple over typical pot holes, cracks, bumps, etc. after about 500 miles, I had pretty. Uh decided I was happy with the changes. Then, an interesting thing started to happen....
The cupped out Road 3's started wearing round again. No kidding. In fact, to date I have put over 4,000 additional miles on them!!! And they have worn perfectly round again...no cupping. Granted the tread is getting thin, and I will be spooning o. A fresh set soon, but....DAMN! 4,000 more miles???!!!! I never would have guessed.
I quizzed Barry on why they would wear like that. He told me the Concours is way over sprung in stock configuration. Once he put in lighter fork springs, and a lighter spring on the Penske, the suspension moves over small stuff easier, rather than pushing the tread blocks, distorting them and causing cupping.
Pretty cool! I am completely satisfied with the transformation. I have had the bike othe local race track at a decent clip, and have gone for day long rides. It excels at both, although it could use a few hundred pound weight reduction for the track days!!! :P
All in all, I would rate this mod as a complete success!!!!!
TimO
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Wow! I can't believe it has been 11 months since my last post!
Neither can we! Thanks for the update. :thumbs:
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Barry convinced me tire life would be improved through better, more accurate fork control. While I am no expert, if I understand correctly, the stock set-up is a series of compromises that leads to excessive tire wear
You mentioned the above almost a Year ago. Seems to fit with what you are reporting now.
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The cupped out Road 3's started wearing round again. No kidding. In fact, to date I have put over 4,000 additional miles on them!!! [...]I quizzed Barry on why they would wear like that. He told me the Concours is way over sprung in stock configuration. Once he put in lighter fork springs, and a lighter spring on the Penske, the suspension moves over small stuff easier, rather than pushing the tread blocks, distorting them and causing cupping.
My tires are cupping now. Fascinating. So in the long term, the money spent on changing the fork springs might actually pay for itself in having to buy/balance/mount fewer tires?
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I have 75k miles on stock suspension and I have done multiple track days and would love to have a better performing suspension. I know nothing about suspension and I have very very little money but I am going to do the front first and then as money allows I will do the rear. So my question is should I do the Traxxion kit or send to GP or what? The Traxxion seems rather pricey when I looked at there website... The GP that was listed here cost under $400 compared to over $1k for the Traxxion why such a huge difference?
Thanks in advance for everyone's input and advice,
-Kirk
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I have 75k miles on stock suspension and I have done multiple track days and would love to have a better performing suspension. I know nothing about suspension and I have very very little money but I am going to do the front first and then as money allows I will do the rear. So my question is should I do the Traxxion kit or send to GP or what? The Traxxion seems rather pricey when I looked at there website... The GP that was listed here cost under $400 compared to over $1k for the Traxxion why such a huge difference?
The GP upgrade is a spring replacement and re-valving but you keep the original configuration for adjusting ride height and rebound damping. The Traxxion AK-20 kit is a complete replacement of the springs, cartridge, damping rod, and damping pistons. When it is complete you will have rebound damping adjustment on one fork and compression damping adjustment on the other. You will also have the flexibility to transfer the AK-20s to another C14 or even another bike (after some modifications). Another option is to replace the entire forks with ZX-14 forks which are surprisingly affordable on eBay. However, if your C14 has ABS the left ZX-14 fork will have to be modified to accept the ABS sensor.
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The GP upgrade is a spring replacement and re-valving but you keep the original configuration for adjusting ride height and rebound damping. The Traxxion AK-20 kit is a complete replacement of the springs, cartridge, damping rod, and damping pistons. When it is complete you will have rebound damping adjustment on one fork and compression damping adjustment on the other. You will also have the flexibility to transfer the AK-20s to another C14 or even another bike (after some modifications). Another option is to replace the entire forks with ZX-14 forks which are surprisingly affordable on eBay. However, if your C14 has ABS the left ZX-14 fork will have to be modified to accept the ABS sensor.
Yes I have ABS, how difficult is it to modified? If I went that route I could keep riding while I rebuilt the ZX14 forks then sell my stock ones...
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Yes I have ABS, how difficult is it to modified? If I went that route I could keep riding while I rebuilt the ZX14 forks then sell my stock ones...
Modification is drilling a hole identical to the one you already have, just unbolt your ABS sensor and look at it. The 09 takes a 18mm drill but an 08 may be different. You need to use a drill press, I would not try it free hand. I put 1.0 kg springs in mine, my riding partner is happy the stock .90 springs. I'm saving my old forks to sell with bike and transfer these forks to next C14.
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Anyone tried this kit?
http://wilbersusa.com/images/HP-Streetbox.jpg (http://wilbersusa.com/images/HP-Streetbox.jpg)
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Looks like they show a kit for the gen 1 bikes.