Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: tjpgi on November 28, 2012, 07:40:25 AM
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2009 ABS Concours with 12,000 miles.
Noticed yesterday with aggressive front braking felt a fair amount of vibration, no shaking or instability, in the front end. Just with slightly, and I mean slightly, less aggressive braking everything seemed normal. Rear brake, used alone, seems OK. In Hill country, just north of San Antonio it is difficult to find smooth asphalt on back roads, so at first I thought it was some vibration just from the road. I was able to find a short stretch of smooth asphalt and experienced the same thing. Without braking the front end seems quite solid, on sharp turns etc.
Could it be the pads, warped rotors, both or something else?
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Shouldnt be bearings at 12k, but, it is easy to check. Start easy, check for play in the head bearings, if that checks out, pull the front tire, use the axle and check for any play. It's one of the two.
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rotor(s)
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rotor(s)
+1
agreed because they fail so often on the 08-09. but can also be tire pressure, ever so slightly cupped tires, front suspension bad or not torque'd to specs, rim ever so slightly bent, etc
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+1
agreed because they fail so often on the 08-09. but can also be tire pressure, ever so slightly cupped tires, front suspension bad or not torque'd to specs, rim ever so slightly bent, etc
+2 rotors...
+1 the other stuffs... worn Avon tires are great for head shake... ::)
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If it's only happening under hard braking, then it's probably rotors. However, someone posted a comment to this site not long ago about cleaning & freeing up the buttons that hold the rotor to the carrier, and fixed a similar problem. Supposedly those buttons are supposed to float, and if they get jammed up because of road slime, it can cause what you're reporting. Search around on this site, you should find the post and how he fixed his.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see if there is any road grime and clean it out. I need to schedule a visit to the dealer for the second recall on the rear master cylinder brake rod and will have them check the rotors and front end if there is still a problem. I have the extended warranty so if the rotors are warped they will honor it.
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- use 10mm allen key. Turn all the bobbins which hold the rotors until they are free.
- this will probably sort you out.
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Sorry, I don`t agree with some of you. Agressive front braking means, as far as I know, that something very dangerous was about to happen. I believe it is impossible to have no vibration, shaking and instability when you need to avoid an accidente, or when you are trying to save your life. When adrenaline enters your veins, front brakes!
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I must be one of the few that use both brakes....
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I must be one of the few that use both brakes....
Not really, there are those who have no choice :)
I use all three brakes.
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;D
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I also use front and rear brakes, when it is possible.
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I don't think you have much of a choice, do you? Both front and rear brakes are linked above 12mph, I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not that up on the 10+ models.
By the way, thanks for being here. We appreciate having a multinational membership.
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Mr. Virginia, the integrated C14 ABS is not a perfect mechanism. Using only the front brakes, you add less than 75% of the potential of the rear. Using only the rear, you add less than 50% of the front. It is written at the manual. Actually, this is my first ABS bike and that`s why I am interested to the subject, And thanks, considering me one multinational member, you make me very proud.
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I use both brakes nearly 100% of the time ( use the back brake solo when entering a curve if I have exceeded my comfort level), a learned habit since driving bikes with either brake shoe stopping power or a single front caliper with a brake shoe at the rear. I was simply testing the brakes ( a controlled, alone on road stopping exercise) with aggressive braking when I started feeling the vibrations coming from the front end on my last ride. The front end seems stable as a rock with braking and cornering. Its just a feeling through the grips with the braking. I read many of the posts about cleaning the rotors, position of rotor in relation to the caliper, etc. and I'll try this and see what happens and then discuss the issue with the service dept at AlamoCycle Plex when I take the bike in for the recall.
Thanks to you guys for your ideas
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So you are using both whether you want to or not it seems to me. Kawasaki did not link the brakes on the 08/09 models on purpose. They said that it would ruin the fun of the bike.... Sorry to all you guys with the 10s on up :P
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
The above is very interesting reading if you haven't read it already.
By the way, you don't have to call me Mr. Virginia. Jim is fine or Zathras or Robin....depending on my mood.
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My bike is 09 as well. Around 9000 mil. At the odometer, I was having the same symptoms only when I use front brake slytly coming to a stop. Hard braking was fine. My dealer have replaced the rotors under warranty. Then, at around 15000 mil. Same thing, again new and improved rotors this time.
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Forgot to mention, mine does not have an ABS .
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Very interesting the information, Jim, about the absence of link between the front an d rear brakes, but, at the brazilian manual, we can read, at page 130 that "The K-ACT helps to distribute correctly the braking force between the front and rear, in order to mantain a stable position of the bike. When pressing the front brake lever, the front right and left calipers are accionated and, also the rear brake. When pressing the brake pedal, the rear brake and the front right caliper are accionated. " In addition, we use one hand and one foot to brake, so, different forces are used to and it is very difficult to balance hand and foot to get 100% from both brakes. Also, at page 43, it talks about the distribution of the braking forces among front and rear whem the ABS 1 or 2 is in use. So, according to Kawasaki's brazilian manual, they are linked and called 1- Standard Mode and 2-Combined Improved Mode.
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I think the 11+ models all come standard with the linked business. The 10's had it as an option. 08/09s only had no abs or abs...no linking. With linked brakes, I don't think it makes much difference if you use the lever or the rear brake, it's distributed according to how you've set the mode button. It's all very magical to me on how that works. Suffice it to say we haven't seen many problems (mechanical/electrical), if any, on that system. Some despise it but it is what it is unless Kwak central decides to change it in an up coming model.
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this thread delivers :D
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Since it only happens during hard braking could it be the rear abs kicking in as the back end lightens up?
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Since it only happens during hard braking could it be the rear abs kicking in as the back end lightens up?
I think the kicking is caused by the ABS itself, as with the lever punching the hand, cause the system is controlling and distributing forces to the brakes, activating and releasing in milliseconds, maintening the trajectory the most stable possible.
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Well I went to the dealer at AlamoPlex in San Antonio for the rear brake recall ( #2) yesterday and told them about my problem with the vibration ( pulsing) with braking. When I made the appointment, I told them I wanted them to measure run out on the rotors ( front and back) to look for warping. They did the recall, both technician and foreman tested the bike, measured the thickness and checked for warping of the rotors.
Run out on the rotors .007" and thickness is 4.95 mm. Both measurements in spec. They said the ABS kicking in is causing the vibration( pulsing). I have owned this bike since new for the last 4 years and something has changed. I will try cleaning the rotors s suggested by Brian and see what happens. They told me that the cost of checking the rotors would be $94 if there were no abnormalities requiring warranty work, but after all the work they did, the cost was "no charge". Go AlamoPlex...I have always been treated well by these guys despite the fact that I did not buy either of my bikes from them ( Concours and GSXR).
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Well I went to the dealer at AlamoPlex in San Antonio for the rear brake recall ( #2) yesterday and told them about my problem with the vibration ( pulsing) with braking. When I made the appointment, I told them I wanted them to measure run out on the rotors ( front and back) to look for warping. They did the recall, both technician and foreman tested the bike, measured the thickness and checked for warping of the rotors.
Run out on the rotors .007" and thickness is 4.95 mm. Both measurements in spec. They said the ABS kicking in is causing the vibration( pulsing). I have owned this bike since new for the last 4 years and something has changed. I will try cleaning the rotors s suggested by Brian and see what happens. They told me that the cost of checking the rotors would be $94 if there were no abnormalities requiring warranty work, but after all the work they did, the cost was "no charge". Go AlamoPlex...I have always been treated well by these guys despite the fact that I did not buy either of my bikes from them ( Concours and GSXR).
And while you're at it, try cleaning abs sensors. I've had a similar problem with abs kicking in on my truck, by removing and cleaning all sensors problem was solved!
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Well I went to the dealer at AlamoPlex in San Antonio for the rear brake recall ( #2) yesterday and told them about my problem with the vibration ( pulsing) with braking. When I made the appointment, I told them I wanted them to measure run out on the rotors ( front and back) to look for warping. They did the recall, both technician and foreman tested the bike, measured the thickness and checked for warping of the rotors.
Run out on the rotors .007" and thickness is 4.95 mm. Both measurements in spec. They said the ABS kicking in is causing the vibration( pulsing). I have owned this bike since new for the last 4 years and something has changed. I will try cleaning the rotors s suggested by Brian and see what happens. They told me that the cost of checking the rotors would be $94 if there were no abnormalities requiring warranty work, but after all the work they did, the cost was "no charge". Go AlamoPlex...I have always been treated well by these guys despite the fact that I did not buy either of my bikes from them ( Concours and GSXR).
It would also be worthwhile to go to harbor freight, and buy one of their inexpensive dial indicators. They work pretty good, but are not real durable like a name brand. Measure the rotor runout Yourself, and if You have access to a micrometer, also measure the thickness of the rotors at several points. Thickness variation in the rotor as it sweeps the pads will cause a vibration also. Sometimes, a more severe vibration is caused by thickness variation, instead of TIR (Total Indicated Runout)
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I had a very similar experience with my 09. JamminJere cleaned my rotors with one of these:
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=100 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=100)
Totally fixed the problem. Just insert into your drill motor and gently place it against your rotors with the wheel off the ground so it can spin. Did a great job of cleaning the brake pad residue off the rotors and stopped the vibration under aggressive breaking.
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Ive had pretty good luck with the rotor hone on a couple of our bikes with this problem. Used at a fairly low rpm, you do have to loosen and flip the rotors to do both sides. Then flip back over again, and re-torque. This is done with the wheel on the axle on jack stands, or with the front end up and the calipers removed and out of the way. The trick is finding the right spot on each s ide of the wheel and the correct pressure to start the wheel spinning slowly so you are getting an even hone around the rotor. You can help keep the wheel spinning with your free hand or have someone help.
JJ
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Thanks for the info, I'll try it.
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I use slightly different materials and equipment but it amounts to the same method Jerry uses and I too have had good success with it. Mine looks like this-
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/CleaningRotors.jpg)
It is a paint removing disk mounted in a hand drill and used on the rotors as they spin slowly in a wheel balancer. The rotors have to be flipped around one time, just as with Jerry's method, to get both sides. The rotors and wheel will turn as soon as the sanding disk is touched to the rotor and it gives a very nice random pattern on the rotor.
It won't fix a warped rotor of course but it does work very well to clean the rotors once a year or so or everytime the brake pads or a front tire is changed.
Brian
Ive had pretty good luck with the rotor hone on a couple of our bikes with this problem. Used at a fairly low rpm, you do have to loosen and flip the rotors to do both sides. Then flip back over again, and re-torque. This is done with the wheel on the axle on jack stands, or with the front end up and the calipers removed and out of the way. The trick is finding the right spot on each s ide of the wheel and the correct pressure to start the wheel spinning slowly so you are getting an even hone around the rotor. You can help keep the wheel spinning with your free hand or have someone help.
JJ
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Thanks for the pics, Bri, yep except for my drill being red, that looks exacly the same! :)
JJ
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Ah, so you have the second- fastest drill color, huh?
;D
By the way, the rig I use is capable of reaching around behind the rotor so both sides could be done without unbolting and flipping the rotors. I just don't know of anyone other thank Kirby who has the brass to actually try it because when the tool wanders off the rotor a bit it is going to hit the inside of the wheel and it is a paint remover.... And I don't trust Kirby to do it ether.
Brian
Thanks for the pics, Bri, yep except for my drill being red, that looks exacly the same! :)
JJ
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I do not agree that empirical solution, but with sandpaper coachbuilder and oil elbows.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/CleaningRotors.jpg (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/CleaningRotors.jpg)
MGvalerio. 8)