Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: sgilbert14 on October 02, 2012, 02:15:41 PM
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I was out for a ride the other day and noticed a bit louder then normal exhaust sound and it seemed to have bit less power when passing. Seeing that it was time for plugs, oil, cleaning the air filter etc.. I decided to check the valves. I did this in the Spring with no problems. I pull the bike apart and check and adjust the valves just as the book instructs. I put enough bike together to give it a try and I got a nasty valve chatter. Take it apart and go at it again, found #2 exhaust was a bit tight but checked them all, put enough together to start it and the chatter is still there! Is there something else I should check besides the valves? I set the exhaust at 8 and the intakes at 7 as I see others have done. Maybe I messing up something. Will dig around here for ideas but any help.ideas would be great.
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Cam chain makes a lot of noise. Might want to check the tentioner.
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I think I may have a clue to all my problems. Reading others post I see that things do not always line up right when setting the timing marks. Checked my bike and that's what is going on so I have been setting the gap while the valves had some pressure on them. Should I just turn the bolt enough to get the pressure off the valves or is there something else??? Thanks.
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I always do mine by the service manual method, pulling the side cover and turning crank with a wrench to line up the camshaft sprockets as directed.
Others just make sure the cam lobes are pointed away from the followers and adjust from there.
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That's how I was doing it but when I line up the timing marks the lobes are not fully releasing the valves so when I am adjusting them it is not correctlt done. So now I am thinking that the timing or something else is off, maybe ? I have learned a ton on the bike but still a long way to go.
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I like to turn the motor until the cam lobe points directly away from the follower for each pair of valves. Takes a little longer, since I don't do two pairs at a time, as the manual instructs, but I know I'm on the base circle for each adjustment.
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I don't care about spending more time on it so I think I will steel your way and just make sure that they are adjusted right. Thanks a ton.
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I like to turn the motor until the cam lobe points directly away from the follower for each pair of valves. Takes a little longer, since I don't do two pairs at a time, as the manual instructs, but I know I'm on the base circle for each adjustment.
+1... I just do the bump. 8)
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What year of bike and how many miles are on it?
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92 with just under 34k
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I haven't heard of any valve issues other than the 86 model year. I have an 87 with 75,000 and it's ok.
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I like to turn the motor until the cam lobe points directly away from the follower for each pair of valves. Takes a little longer, since I don't do two pairs at a time, as the manual instructs, but I know I'm on the base circle for each adjustment.
On a 4 cylinder OHC it just don't get any easier than this.... Now on the other hand when we are working on a 20 cylinder you bet your sweet tushy that we roll the engine over to exact crank positions so that we don't waste time and energy. Another point that bears mention as it happens is to make sure that you don't get your intake & exhaust clearance backwards and that your not getting your SAE and Metric readings crossed up either as that can make an engine clatter like the mad hatter... Other than that check your timing chain adjuster to make sure that it is not sticking as that makes an engine rattle; but worry not as these engines will almost NEVER jump timing.
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Maybe it is something else?
I went back through all the valves again, put enough bike back together and tried to give it a go. It started but I killed it in less then 5-10 secs because the noise was still there. I tried it once more with coils pulled so it would start and the noise is more like metal hitting metal in the area of cyl 3-4. Pulled it all apart again, pulled the plugs, left the valve cover off and turned it over and it was quite as ever. Lightly put the plugs in, no cover, and the noise is back. So that rules out hitting the valve cover but what else should I go after?
When checking the valves I had each lob facing up, screw driver in place and the feeler with some, but not heavy friction. I am using the .07 for the intake (ones towards the air cleaner I hope) and .08 for the exhaust. So, what in the hell am I screwing up? Should I do the adjustmets with nothing but the feeler so that I am not pushing down on the thing even slightly?
I can't belive this is driving me so crazy after all the other stuff that I have done on cars and bikes. HLEP!!!!!!!!
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A plug missing the crush washer?
Plugs out quiet. Plugs in noisy. I'd say plugs. The correct plug is being used, right?
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.07 and .08??? Isn't it .007 and .008? .07 would make a heck of a clatter!
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Gap was right I just did not type the 2nd "0" Checked the plugs and the washers are in place but I am going to put in the old set as a check once I go through it all again.
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Good deal, but ya never know....seen it happen before.
Don't forget to ensure the spark plug well seals are in place when reinstalling the cover...don't axe how I know...
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Well, I went back to the method in the book and at both crank positions I found at least 1 set of intake and exhaust valve off. Some just a bit but #3 intacke was bad. After that I decided that if I was this far into the thing I might as well check everything so I pulled the right cover and checked the chain, adjuster znd looked for anything that should be and shouldn't be there. Now I have nice stream of red gasket goop on both covers drying for the morning. Love the goop gaskets and they work great and a lot cheaper then factory.
How thick should the intack gasket be? I am thinking that maybe it is time to replace the gaskets for the cover and plugs.
Thanks for the help and I hope this works!
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Red Gasket Goop...
What pray tell is Red Gasket Goop?
Let's just hope that your not speaking about silicone in place of fiber gaskets; many times fiber gaskets are used to set up a specific clearance between parts and another thing is you really don't want is little gobs (balls) of silicone floating around inside your engine looking for an oil passageway to obstruct.
Intake Gasket? No such thing; please explain.
As to the Valve Cover and well as Plug Well Gaskets you will not be making those as they are made of rather thick rubber like material...
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OK, first it looks like I may have messed up because I was using silcone for the side covers. So, I will be ordering the right ones before I get it running. The valve cover gasket seems to be fine and there is no way I would have used anything instead of them. So, I will get the gasket set for the side covers and take the goop out og the equation! Thanks for the advice and it could have been a bad mistake.
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Just order the gaskets! 6 days downtime but better then what could have been!
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Just order the gaskets! 6 days downtime but better then what could have been!
Good... Cause we really do have your best interest in mind. While Silicone does indeed have its place it is the last and least used sealant in my arsenal and I work on many types of marine equipment on a daily basis; right now I'm staring at 52 cylinders worth of diesel engines and that's just the back half....
While the covers you removed don't normally even need to be removed thus many people will cement them on to prevent leaks; leaks that likely would not even appear if the surfaces are cleaned properly. Be sure to remove all trace of old gasket and what I like to do is use a simple spray adhesive such as made by 3M lightly on one side of the gasket and the removable part. That's right neatly glue the gasket to the cover and then lightly OIL the gasket when you put it back on the engine this way when and if you need to remove it later you just might do it without any damage whatsoever.
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Well, I guess I'm a terrible connie owner, because I have been using gray RTV sealant on the side cover since the first valve adjust. However, I always make sure both surfaces are clean and oil free. And I use it very sparingly. I have very little squeze out, if any at all. Been working fine for 76,000 miles. Just sayin silicone is fine when used properly. ;D
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Yes the key word here is "sparingly"
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I have used it for a few years pn my old bike but the idea of a clog oil port is enough to ge the gaskets. Now seeing that I have a few days before they get here I am thinking of checking the oil screen as well. Never did this before so I hope it is not too much of a pain?
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I have used it for a few years pn my old bike but the idea of a clog oil port is enough to ge the gaskets. Now seeing that I have a few days before they get here I am thinking of checking the oil screen as well. Never did this before so I hope it is not too much of a pain?
No harder than it is to drop about a baker's dozen 6 mm bolts; but in order to drop the oil pan you need to drop the exhaust header and in order to drop the header you need to drop...... Well you get the picture. In dropping the pan you will also be looking at another gasket as well as some o-rings that need to checked/watched are in the correct position in the pan to motor interface. If you've been neat with the silicone as another poster has stated I'd still sleep at night but if you've been sloppy with the stuff and had a lot of squeeze out when using the stuff then you've had a lot of squeeze "in" and that could be worrisome.
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Still have the gasket on the way and I think I will keep the screen for the spring pre ride list. How I used the silicone is I clean both surfaces and then add a layer to the cover only. I get it as uniformed and smooth as I can and then let this dry overnight. Befreo I install trhe cover I check and clean anything that could break off and clean off all edges with the razoe blade. After this I have a solid layer on the cover and I can install it with anything oozing out or into anything. Used this on my 750 for 3 years without issue but just the idea of an issue scared me enough to get the gaskets.
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I've used Permatex Ultra Blue on my side cover for 75,000 miles and 22 years. Sparingly.
What I've done is apply the silicone, lightly seat all the bolts. Let sit overnight. Tighten the bolts the next day.
In the future though, with the added knowledge on how to re-use gaskets, I'll do that. At least you can tighten the bolts right away and be done with no need to allow time for the sealant to cure.
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... because I have been using gray RTV sealant on the side cover ...
Gray RTV? Are you sure you aren't using Yamabond or Hondabond? These are actually butyl rubber and not Silicone. Those are what I use to replace any gasket that doesn't require a "special" gasket. Wipe a little on both surfaces, then assemble a few minutes later and be done. It to can get into passages but you have a little more control on its application.
Do not let this send you on a wild goose chase, but....
If your tap is still there after all of this, I have something you could look at that SISF wants me to look at on my motor after a conversation with him. I got a motor of unknown origin to replace the one that blew back in June from a bad crank bearing #3. The valves are set correct, and I have since added a manual CCT. I still have a tap that is coming from the top end, seemingly near piston 1. Short of piston slap or a wrist pin being bad (and I think the sound would come from a lower point and would go bad fast), mine is perhaps a rocker arm that is worn on the pad that rides on the cam lobe. The only way to check this is to pull the camshafts out. Next time I open it will be to inspect the lobes as it might tell we which one it is (if this is the problem). Otherwise it is a new engine for me. Right now it is just an "around town" bike and the sound hasn't changed, so i'm just waiting for the cold weather to give me a reason. At a minimum, since the valve cover is already off, get a bright light and a magnifying glass to inspect the lobes close up.
Hopefully it is just your valves. You never need to take the ign cover off if you do the starter bump method. It is extremely simple.
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I've used Permatex Ultra Blue on my side cover for 75,000 miles and 22 years. Sparingly.
What I've done is apply the silicone, lightly seat all the bolts. Let sit overnight. Tighten the bolts the next day.
That in a nutshell is the correct way to use silicone if your going to use silicone.
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. Pulled it all apart again, pulled the plugs, left the valve cover off and turned it over and it was quite as ever. Lightly put the plugs in, no cover, and the noise is back. So that rules out hitting the valve cover but what else should I go after?
What's the part # of the plugs you're using? NGK ????? or whatever.
Plugs out, no noise, plugs in = noise.
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WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The bike was to the paint of turning it over again and the noise was worse. This time I did the hose in the ear and slowly went through each part of the motor. Why does every sound seem to come from the top of the engine? Turns out what I was hearing is the generator chain tensioner. The guide is broke on the top and along the inside edge and the noise that I have been hearing is the F*&^*& thing bouncing off the clutch housing. So, now I have to replace the tensioner but at least the clutch housing is market but ok. Bad thing is that I have been going after ghost for 3 days. Good thing isthat it could have been really bad if this went out someplace on the back roads that I like to ride.
Now does anyone know where I can buy the part?????? Doesn't look like you have any options but to buy the whole thing.
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Congrats on the relatively less painful diagnosis.
Any parts house/dealer can order it up.
My local dealer matches Ron Ayers pricing, so I can get the better price and still support the local dealer.
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I took the bike a 2nd slow going after by checking out wear areas around the tensioner found that it was pushed back as far as the bolts would allow. Now the slide on the top is still worn and the inner edge is gone, but by moving the thing forward as far as possible and lock tighten the bolts I have cleared up the slap against the clutch and the noise is gone. My gasket set should be here in a few days and I will see how things hold up then. Any ideas on this fix would be great and this is one area that I have not touched on the bike so I don't know if it has been played with or not.