Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: greycobra on September 29, 2012, 11:49:28 AM
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Since MCE is closed today thought I would ask if anyone has an idea how to resolve it.
They are going on a '12 Connie. Got to the point where you install the 60 mm. bolt in the upper engine mount. (the right side) I can get the bolt started just fine but, about 3/8th's of an inch before it would tighten I run into severe resistance. Feels like the bolt threads have run out and the bolt shoulder is hitting the motor mount threads.
I have looked for any misalignment between the motor mount points to make sure that nothing slipped out of place and all looks good. I can put the original bolt back in with out issue. Also checked the length of the shipped bolts to make sure they are correct. Eye balled the thread/shoulder length and it appears to be correct to accommodate the added thickness of the Cage mount.
Any ideas? Thanks in advance.
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I had the same issue and ended up stripping the threads out of the aluminum in the engine. DO NOT force it. I still have to install a Heli-coil to get it to torque correctly.
The motor mount is off a bit, and binds on the new bolt causing it to miss-align in the threads. loosen the motor mount, and see if you can get enough clearance. Also, if you are on the center stand, make sure the front wheel is completely straight. The center stand is directly attached to the engine, and if the wheel is turned, the engine can shift a slight bit when the mounts are loosened.
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Caffeinated,
Started this project on the side side stand. I'll get it on the center stand tomorrow and give your suggestions a try.
Which motor mount are you saying to loosen. I have the 13 some inch bolt out and of course the mentioned bolt is currently out. The left side is still untouched.
Yes, I quit as I did not want to deal with what you are Aluminum and steel don't always mix well.
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Caffeinated,
Started this project on the side side stand. I'll get it on the center stand tomorrow and give your suggestions a try.
Which motor mount are you saying to loosen. I have the 13 some inch bolt out and of course the mentioned bolt is currently out. The left side is still untouched.
Yes, I quit as I did not want to deal with what you are Aluminum and steel don't always mix well.
Loosen the upper front right side mount bracket. I believe there are three bolts holding it in place. Once they are loosened you should be able to wiggle the bracket a bit to get it centered. If you look closely, you will see where the threads of the original bolt dug into the mounting brackets hole.
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I installed mine 2 days ago too. I ran into the exact same problem. I ended up backing the bolts out and tried to run the factory bolts back in to clean the threads. It was a little tough so I chased the threads with my tap & Die set to clean them up which did the trick. The threads are 10mm by 1.25 if anybody wants to know. I would recommend doing this because you probably already stripped your threads. You can buy just the 10mm by 1.25 tap for probably under 20 bucks. I would also buy the die to clean up your bolts. It's also a 10mm by 1.25.
I then ran the supplied bolts in without the cage and they went in all the way just fine. So this is what a figured out. If you put the front cage on and have the rear part of it attached to the back mounting point below the gas tank, and then try to attach the front engine bolt, it puts leverage on those engine mounting bolts not allowing the bolt to run in straight. You have to put the front engine mount bolt in with just the front part of the cage without the rear attached. This will elevated any unwanted leverage on those bolts. After you do that you can now attach the very back bolt under the gas tank.
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Thanks alot you guys,, so handlebars straight, on centerstand, and start from the front and work back...
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I installed mine 2 days ago too. I ran into the exact same problem. I ended up backing the bolts out and tried to run the factory bolts back in to clean the threads. It was a little tough so I chased the threads with my tap & Die set to clean them up which did the trick. The threads are 10mm by 1.25 if anybody wants to know. I would recommend doing this because you probably already stripped your threads. You can buy just the 10mm by 1.25 tap for probably under 20 bucks. I would also buy the die to clean up your bolts. It's also a 10mm by 1.25.
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+1
Something else I noticed... the supplied (with the Cage) bolt is long enough that if you did eat a thread or 2, the new bolt is long enough to get deep enough to engage the previously unused threads in the engine. The factory install left about 3 threads on the inside (use a flashlight and you can see this).
I ate threads as Caffeinated did, and was less worried about that after I realized this. Should get you back to factory specs.
Of course, cleaning the red locker out before you try the install will likely eliminate eating threads (and you'll be smarter than me, in the process).
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The red Kawi locker was my issue cleaned out the threads and had no further trouble.
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Caffienated said to try loosening the two upper mount bolts in an attempt to get the bolt holes properly lined up.
My question now is how the heck do you access these bolts. For the life me I cannot figure it out and I have a shop manual.
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Caffienated said to try loosening the two upper mount bolts in an attempt to get the bolt holes properly lined up.
My question now is how the heck do you access these bolts. For the life me I cannot figure it out and I have a shop manual.
I used a long (7 or 10") extension, and weaved it through whatever was in the way. I've got a 2011, so if you have a Gen1 or a California version, I'm not sure what's in the way.
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I installed my canyon cage today and wanted to thank all of you for the tips in this thread. Took about 1.5 hours, front and back and they look great. Fairing was not remeoved. We did break an allen wrench when using the breaker bar (I guess that's where it gets its name?), but fortunately we had another one.
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Tried to install mine yesterday and it was a no-go. Right side went, though I had the problem mentioned earlier about not being able to install the bolt completely. Problem was too much thread lock gunk. Cleaned that out and bolt went home smoothly. Left side hit a wall. Motor mount bolt will not budge. Ruined two allen drivers and am starting to round out the hex in the bolt. I think my last option is a stuck/damaged bolt remover. Will have to wait until next weekend, though. Late last night I threw in the towel and reverted back. Half a day wasted.
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- perhaps support the engine with a jack to get the necessary alignment right with the various mounting bolts.
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I supported the engine and used a jack handle as a breaker bar. You may try heating the bolt, maybe that will help with the thread locker.
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Hey guys, sorry I just saw this thread this morning. It sounds like you guys got the problem figured out, though. If the hardware begins to "stick", NEVER force it. If you guys ever need replacement hardware, you can always order it from us as it's really tough to find this hardware at local hardware shops.
Also, if you're ever not sure about something during the install, it's always better to stop where you're at and give us a call. We have a tech here that can help answer any questions you have. It's better to be safe than sorry!
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I wasn't sure if heat would help but I can put some heat on it if it will. The right side gave with a lot of muscle and there was resistance over the entire thread until the bolt was out. Thread lock covered THE ENTIRE THREAD SURFACE! Left side will not budge and now my allen driver won't engage the hex head enough to turn it before slipping. I'm using a breaker bar that will give me enough torque to turn the bolt, I just can't engage the bolt now.
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I literally used a 3' breaker with the floor jack handle. It would be best to use a thread tap to clean the threads on the engine mounts.
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Hey guys, sorry I just saw this thread this morning. It sounds like you guys got the problem figured out, though. If the hardware begins to "stick", NEVER force it. If you guys ever need replacement hardware, you can always order it from us as it's really tough to find this hardware at local hardware shops.
Also, if you're ever not sure about something during the install, it's always better to stop where you're at and give us a call. We have a tech here that can help answer any questions you have. It's better to be safe than sorry!
Reading this tread has me starting to wonder......
Red Thread locker is usually high strength and designed for permanent installation (at least the Loctitte brand). The recommended removal procedure is to use a touch to heat the area to 260 deg F before trying to remove the bolt.
I ordered a set of Canyon cages and am wondering if I need a torch to get these installed. Does anyone have a factory shop manual? Does it make any recommendations for removing these bolts?
Thanks
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Reading this tread has me starting to wonder......
Red Thread locker is usually high strength and designed for permanent installation (at least the Loctitte brand). The recommended removal procedure is to use a touch to heat the area to 260 deg F before trying to remove the bolt.
I ordered a set of Canyon cages and am wondering if I need a torch to get these installed. Does anyone have a factory shop manual? Does it make any recommendations for removing these bolts?
We had similar issues with the top bolts being very/surprisingly difficult to remove on my bike. We did not use heat. I think we actually did have to use additional leverage on the wrench, most of the time getting the bolt out.
They did have LOTS of threadlock on them. I have no idea why they had to be so incredibly "in there", even at 1/4 the effort they should never come out on their own. When we installed the Canyons, I did not use any thread lock at all on the replacement bolts, although some was still left in the engine threads and when tightening the bolts, you could tell that stuff was in there.
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I didn't have any problems with mine but I used an allen socket set instead of allen wrenches.
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We used an allen socket head with a breaker bar and broke the first one but had a spare. Then we ground off all the red locktite on the original bolt and put it back in and took if out again and then cleaned off more locktite. It's important to get all of the old locktite out of there so you don't strip the thread.
Before you take a torch to it, try a hair dryer.
We used blue locktite on the new bolts (the CCs will have to be removed for valve adjusts, etc)
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I'm using an allen socket with a breaker bar--or I was untill I ruined two of them.
Is a hair dryer going to get hotter than the engine does? I would think you'd need more heat.
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I'm using an allen socket with a breaker bar--or I was untill I ruined two of them.
Is a hair dryer going to get hotter than the engine does? I would think you'd need more heat.
I'd personally be careful using heat, especially because the Loctite is pretty deep in there and it's tough stuff. Your best bet, as previously mentioned, would be to purchase a tap and just clean it that way if you really want to be thorough. Also, when you remove the original bolt, a good idea is to clean it then reenter it and take it back out again. That will help clean some of the residual Loctite but it won't take care of it completely. Your best bet is definitely going to be using a tap. It's a good idea to get as much of that original Loctite out of there because the hardware we supply is such high grade that it can strip those aluminum engine points if you're not careful, as some people have learned the hard way. Don't forget, you can always call us directly and speak to myself or the Tech if you have any questions.
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I'm not talking about getting the Locktite out, I'm talking about getting the original engine mount bolt out. It won't budge. Right side came out with effort and I was easily able to clean out the residual thread lock. Left side is frozen solid in place. Will heating the engine mount bolt do anything to free it up?
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I don't think it would hurt it unless you melted it.
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I'm not talking about getting the Locktite out, I'm talking about getting the original engine mount bolt out. It won't budge. Right side came out with effort and I was easily able to clean out the residual thread lock. Left side is frozen solid in place. Will heating the engine mount bolt do anything to free it up?
Ohhh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood you and got your question mixed up with someone else that was asking about removing the residual Loctite once you actually get the bolts out. As VirginiaJim said, I don't think heating the bolt itself would hurt (as long as you don't completely roast the thing) but I also don't think it would help all that much. I suppose it's worth a shot, though. I'll call my contact at Kawasaki Corporate and see if he has any tips to loosening that hardware. Once I have a chance to talk to him I'll be sure to share my findings.
This is slightly off-topic but I think the reason some people are having trouble with this and others aren't is due to the actual amount of Loctite used on your individual bike. I'm assuming the Loctite on their bolts is added by hand which means there's going to be varying amounts on every individual bike. Some will have more, some will have less. I think this has a direct correlation with how tough that hardware is to remove. Not like this helps anyone, though. It's just an interesting theory.
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In reading this thread it seems that the 2nd gen bikes are having more of an issue with this than the 1st gens.
:-X
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Don't know if that's true, Conrad, but mine's a 2009 model. When I took the right side bolt out, the entire thread surface was covered in red Locktite. And there was so much residual gunk in the engine mounting hole, I couldn't see all the way through it.
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I just don't understand why Kawasaki thought so much locktite was necessary. Really- is there any risk of the bolts coming loose without tons of thread lock? How about without any??
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Instead of heating the bolt maybe if you start the bike & run it until the fan comes on then try to loosen the bolts.
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But there wouldn't be any flames that way..
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I wasn't sure if heat would help but I can put some heat on it if it will. The right side gave with a lot of muscle and there was resistance over the entire thread until the bolt was out. Thread lock covered THE ENTIRE THREAD SURFACE! Left side will not budge and now my allen driver won't engage the hex head enough to turn it before slipping. I'm using a breaker bar that will give me enough torque to turn the bolt, I just can't engage the bolt now.
Had a similar problem on my 2010 RHS. My allen socket with a breaker bar started to round out the inside of the hex head and the bolt was not turning.
I then used an impact driver with the allen socket and that moved it after a couple of good wacks.
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Success. But it didn't come easy (or cheap). Finally got the left side engine mount bolt out using an impact wrench and a set of bolt removers from Sears called Grip Tite drivers. Didn't use any flame--sorry, Jim. On the plus side, I know have a set of Grip Tite drivers and an impact wrench!
I would warn anyone attempting this install that you will be way ahead of the game if you have an impact wrench. If you're just using a breaker bar, be sure you have a good lock between your allen driver and the bolt. Mine slipped the first time I tried to turn it and all of my woes (and tool purchases) that followed were a result of that. The impact wrench really turns this into a fairly quick job.
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I would warn anyone attempting this install that you will be way ahead of the game if you have an impact wrench.
I'm getting ready to do this finally. What is the ft lbs rating of the impact wrech you used?
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I would warn anyone attempting this install that you will be way ahead of the game if you have an impact wrench.
I'm getting ready to do this finally. What is the ft lbs rating of the impact wrech you used?
I don't have an impact wrench nor was one needed when I installed my Canyon Cages. I was ready for the bolts to be hard to get out but in my case they were not.
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I don't have an impact wrench nor was one needed when I installed my Canyon Cages. I was ready for the bolts to be hard to get out but in my case they were not.
Me neither. I've put mine on and off several times and never had a problem.
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I have an electric impact wrench with a rating of 350 ft. lbs. of torque. It took a full one second on the trigger before the bolt spun out. Believe me when I say the left side was TIGHT!
After the initial bolt removal, all is good. I can remove and reinstall with no problems, though both sides had significant thread lock residue in them at first.
Having done it once, I have no doubt I could do it again in minutes. The most time consuming part now is removing the plastic. I did the "plastic surgery" that allows me to take the plastic off without removing the bars.
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- imho , normally , would hesitate to use an impact wrench on engine mounting bolts which thread into the aluminium parts of the engine.
- but it seems that the threadlock used was excessive on some bikes ... ouch.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to use some sort of lubricant or anti-seize compound the first time. Put the bolts in-out a few times then clean the threads before torqueing. Maybe Ryan at MCE could add it as a cautionary note to the instructions.
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I was just reading through the previous posts. Short of buying an impact maybe try an allen socket in a breaker bar, put enough torque on it till it's just short of breaking the bolt or socket then rap fimly with a hammer about 2 inches up the breaker bar. It acts like an impact wrench, sometimes it works, but not definitely, especially with the gratuitous use of red locktite.
We used to have to remove a pulley from older model combines that were red locktited on. Had to heat the whole 25 pound pulley glowing red and then use a massive puller just to get it to budge...I have hated red locktite ever since.
Good luck gentlemen.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to use some sort of lubricant or anti-seize compound the first time. Put the bolts in-out a few times then clean the threads before torqueing. Maybe Ryan at MCE could add it as a cautionary note to the instructions.
Man, that red Loctite is nasty stuff! I can certainly update the instructions, though and add a note in there for this. Thanks!
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I just don't understand why Kawasaki thought so much locktite was necessary. Really- is there any risk of the bolts coming loose without tons of thread lock? How about without any??
And I am still wondering why there is ANY locktite on the bolts, much less the tons they put on them.
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If you would have had a C10 you would understand why as they had a tendency to fall out. I guess Kwak went the other way a bit too much with our bikes. They all sat around a table and said 'We like red.' and there you go.
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Mine is a 2011,
First off, I did my research, read all the posts that I could find here and on COG and identified the problem areas such as bolt removal and refitting.
I also looked at the fairing mod posts as it made sense to me to be able to take the fairing off and put it on for servicing without having to remove the cages.
I decided before I purchased the Canyon Cages from MCE that I would fit them with the fairings off, then mod the fairing and fit with the cages on the bike.
I used a breaker bar to crack the top bolts then a ratchet to remove them, they were very tight - I did not use any heat
I never had a problem aligning the bolts when bolting the cages on however I did spend some time cleaning each bolt hole thread very thoroughly, I did not use a thread tap as I could not get one locally, I used the blue loctite in case I had to remove them at some point in the future.
When fitting the fairings back on the first time I found it awkward at first however I have removed a refitted them a few times now and find it very easy and takes no longer than without the cages fitted.
Some photos:
Right Side:
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-8Z7H376/0/S/PC230100-S.jpg)
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-NN3w2XQ/0/S/PC230106-S.jpg)
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-zftHHGZ/0/S/PC230120-S.jpg)
Left Side:
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-s7s7M7H/0/S/PC230102-S.jpg)
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-PPVKNNs/0/S/PC230108-S.jpg)
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-zSFfQBB/0/S/PC230119-S.jpg)
Fairing Mod: - Same on both sides - Left side shown
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Canyon-Cage/i-c5C89DS/0/S/PC230112-S.jpg)
Cheers
Paul
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Mine is a 2011,
First off, I did my research, read all the posts that I could find here and on COG and identified the problem areas such as bolt removal and refitting.
I also looked at the fairing mod posts as it made sense to me to be able to take the fairing off and put it on for servicing without having to remove the cages.
I decided before I purchased the Canyon Cages from MCE that I would fit them with the fairings off, then mod the fairing and fit with the cages on the bike.
I used a breaker bar to crack the top bolts then a ratchet to remove them, they were very tight - I did not use any heat
I never had a problem aligning the bolts when bolting the cages on however I did spend some time cleaning each bolt hole thread very thoroughly, I did not use a thread tap as I could not get one locally, I used the blue loctite in case I had to remove them at some point in the future.
When fitting the fairings back on the first time I found it awkward at first however I have removed a refitted them a few times now and find it very easy and takes no longer than without the cages fitted.
Nice write up and pictures! Next time I have to take the plastic off I think I'll do this mod.
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Mine is a 2011,
First off, I did my research, read all the posts that I could find here and on COG and identified the problem areas such as bolt removal and refitting.
I also looked at the fairing mod posts as it made sense to me to be able to take the fairing off and put it on for servicing without having to remove the cages.
I decided before I purchased the Canyon Cages from MCE that I would fit them with the fairings off, then mod the fairing and fit with the cages on the bike.
I used a breaker bar to crack the top bolts then a ratchet to remove them, they were very tight - I did not use any heat
I never had a problem aligning the bolts when bolting the cages on however I did spend some time cleaning each bolt hole thread very thoroughly, I did not use a thread tap as I could not get one locally, I used the blue loctite in case I had to remove them at some point in the future.
When fitting the fairings back on the first time I found it awkward at first however I have removed a refitted them a few times now and find it very easy and takes no longer than without the cages fitted.
Cheers
Paul
Well done Paul. Isn't your coolant a bit low?
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Well done Paul. Isn't your coolant a bit low?
Conrad,
The fluid is in the lower part between the indicator lines on the fluid bottle, I think it is better with the fluid level being a bit lower in the hot weather.
I had a wildlife incident on a overnight trip last year and the bike was in for repairs, the photo you refer to was taken the day after I picked the bike up from the repair when I fitted the canyon cages, the radiator had been replaced along with most of the plastic and the bike serviced so the fluid level was OK, I went on a 9,000km ride the following week with temperatures as high as 50c without problem, with the bike serviced again when I returned, the bike shop reported no problem with the coolant levels.
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Kangaroo-Collision/i-xjJCtdn/0/S/P9300111-S.jpg)
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Kangaroo-Collision/i-FDV5F3g/0/S/P9300113-S.jpg)
(http://highett.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Kangaroo-Collision/i-FgkvXmQ/0/S/P9300114-S.jpg)
Cheers
Paul
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Conrad,
The fluid is in the lower part between the indicator lines on the fluid bottle, I think it is better with the fluid level being a bit lower in the hot weather.
I had a wildlife incident on a overnight trip last year and the bike was in for repairs, the photo you refer to was taken the day after I picked the bike up from the repair when I fitted the canyon cages, the radiator had been replaced along with most of the plastic and the bike serviced so the fluid level was OK, I went on a 9,000km ride the following week with temperatures as high as 50c without problem, with the bike serviced again when I returned, the bike shop reported no problem with the coolant levels.
Cheers
Paul
I never noticed it before but it would appear that the coolant bottle is a little different on the gen 2 bikes. Either that or my CRS is kicking in, again. ;)
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For what it's worth, I installed mine on my 2012 C14 this evening.
I was quite concerned about the reports of red locktite, but am pleased to report that I was able to get the bolts out of mine with a ~15 inch socket wrench. It was tight, but I didn't need a breaker bar or anything other than using a bit of my extra poundage.
When I got them out, they each had about 3/8ths of an inch band of the red stuff.
Now, if I can figure out how to tighten the front suport bracket nylon bolts... Looks like a trip to Harbor Freight is in order, to get a box-end ratchet...
Jeff
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Harbor Freight tools are generally crap. Go to Sears. For the money you're spending on the Cages and considering the labor, the extra few bucks are worth it.
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Harbor Freight tools are generally crap. Go to Sears. For the money you're spending on the Cages and considering the labor, the extra few bucks are worth it.
+1 Craftsman ratcheting box end wrench made getting that front bolt on and off a piece of cake.
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+1 Craftsman ratcheting box end wrench made getting that front bolt on and off a piece of cake.
I wouldn't say it is cake- but it beats the HELL out of the alternative (a non-ratcheting one)! Yes, the first time I installed was with a regular box-end. OMG- it took forever.
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I know this is an old topic, but I am just getting around to installing these and I found that PB Blaster does a great job at eating away the red Kawi thread locker. I sprayed it into the bolt holes from behind liberally a few times and let it penetrate and bolts broke loose wih no issue. Then I sprayed it into the holes and on the bolts and ran them in and out of the threads several times getting almost all of the thread locker out. Maybe this will work for someone else. I didn't want to go buy the tap to chase the threads.
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I know this is an old topic,
Old topics are often the best ones!
but I am just getting around to installing these and I found that PB Blaster does a great job at eating away the red Kawi thread locker. I sprayed it into the bolt holes from behind
I can't recall being able to get behind the engine bolts, but it has been a while since I did it and I have a really poor memory :)
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I know this is an old topic, but I am just getting around to installing these and I found that PB Blaster does a great job at eating away the red Kawi thread locker. I sprayed it into the bolt holes from behind liberally a few times and let it penetrate and bolts broke loose wih no issue. Then I sprayed it into the holes and on the bolts and ran them in and out of the threads several times getting almost all of the thread locker out. Maybe this will work for someone else. I didn't want to go buy the tap to chase the threads.
Welcome to the forum!