Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: martin_14 on August 30, 2012, 02:58:59 AM
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have any of you heard it? Early in the morning, bike cold. Press the start button and it starts, but it rattles for about 2-3 seconds. As soon as (and this is only theory from my part) the oil flows, the rattle fades out. After only 10 seconds you can rev the bike a little (2-3k rpm) without any rattle. But this noise really bothers me and I don't know if it is my bike only. My dealer, which has earned my trust, says that it's normal in this bike.
I was thinking of recording it and placing the video/audio for you folks and give me your opinion. My guarantee is about to run out and I don't want $urpri$e$.
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They all do it, & yes, it's annoying. You would think that they would have the tensioner thing figured out by now.
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I have an 09 with 21 thousand miles, no rattle. If it started to rattle, I would be concerned as well.
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This is one of those things that really is normal and they ALL do it. Well, except for Brian's bike. He installed a manual chain tensioner.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=8103.msg122922#msg122922 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=8103.msg122922#msg122922)
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Come now, Martin, as long as you've owned this bike and as long as you've been here, you're just now coming up with this question? Quite frankly, I'm gobsmacked that you're asking this one. But not to worry, it's all normal. The old girl is telling you she's alive and functioning.... ;) :)
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My 08' did not rattle until after 1st valve check. With 87Kmiles and 4 valve checks, it even rattles after parking for a while. Figure it must not be damaging with that many miles. Runs just like new after the noise clears, sometimes 5-10 seconds . Replacing with mechanical tensioner is only cure, but requires checking often. Fresh oil always lessens the effect too.
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gobsmacked? WoW
gob‧smacked British English spoken informal
very surprised or shocked
WORD FOCUS: surprised
very surprised: amazed, astonished, astounded, dumbfounded, staggered, flabbergasted, gobsmacked BrE informal, speechless, be lost for words, can't believe your eyes/earssurprised
➔ See also surprised
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Stick around, you might learn a few things. Just finished watching Wheeler Dealers....
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gobsmacked? WoW
gob‧smacked British English spoken informal
very surprised or shocked
WORD FOCUS: surprised
very surprised: amazed, astonished, astounded, dumbfounded, staggered, flabbergasted, gobsmacked BrE informal, speechless, be lost for words, can't believe your eyes/earssurprised
➔ See also surprised
The word of the day? I must say that I've never heard that word before. Can I say that I'm gobsmacked that I've never heard of gobsmacked before?
If you snuck up on someone and smacked them in the gob, would they be gobsmacked twice?
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Possibly..
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Come now, Martin, as long as you've owned this bike and as long as you've been here, you're just now coming up with this question? Quite frankly, I'm gobsmacked that you're asking this one. But not to worry, it's all normal. The old girl is telling you she's alive and functioning.... ;) :)
Sorry... won't happen again... :-[
believe it or not, I don't remember having read any big thread about it. You know, where after 4 or 5 posts people use the K-word and start waving their FOBs and pointing at the dyno oil as the culprit of all evil. Then Steve starts playing with barbie dolls and fotographing them in provocative outfits hugging his FOB in suggestive manners...
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Steve is another story entirely..... The man is in his own world. However, this forum welcomes characters of all types. Wouldn't be as fun, otherwise.
That rattle has been with us from day one and as W14 states, some don't have it all. Mine has been rattling pretty much since I've bought it in the summer of 2007. I've got 50k on it and no problems to speak of. I've tried different oils, filters, kept bike on the side stand, kept bike on the center stand. Not much change at all. At one point it got more quiet than normal but now it's getting back to the same noise. I don't worry about it any more as it hasn't caused any harm. There were some early threads in the previous incarnation of this forum that were quite lengthy and speculative on the source of the noise, probably before your time here. But it all comes down to that some bikes do it and some don't and there is no harm from it that we're aware of.
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Yeah, all dat dare stuff can be distracting.
The rattle bothered me only because I wondered what was causing it. My bike did it only after sitting for hours, and then only when started on the sidestand. If started on the centerstand or with me holding the bike up straight, there was either no rattle or a very faint one. I did an entire write- up on this including pictures and Kirby's input but alas, it went off to forum heaven in the great digital shake up of 2011.
This is the short version: the automatic chain tensioner is extended partially by spring and partially by hydraulic pressure (tapped into the engine's oil galleys). Overnight the oil leaks out- the piston is merely a tight fit in a smooth bore but there is no seal. So until the tensioner is refilled with oil and enough pressure is built (in the tensioner itself, not the entire hydraulic system) the cam chain is loose. As it only rattles when the bike is tilted to the left, I believe the cam chain is simply bouncing along the cylinder wall casting along its normal path. I changed mine to a mechanical cam chain tensioner and poof- no more rattle. I only adjust mine during major maintenance at 25K intervals so it really isn't much of an issue but the automatic unit is of course maintenance free.
I recommend people just ignore it because the manual CCT adds maintenance but if it bothers someone enough, changing the CCT will absolutely cure that rattle.
Brian
Sorry... won't happen again... :-[
believe it or not, I don't remember having read any big thread about it. You know, where after 4 or 5 posts people use the K-word and start waving their FOBs and pointing at the dyno oil as the culprit of all evil. Then Steve starts playing with barbie dolls and fotographing them in provocative outfits hugging his FOB in suggestive manners...
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Yeah, you gotta' watch Jim and his English English speech. He throws 'whist's around like that is a real word. He is a bad influence I tells' ya'.
That's OK, the Limeys think 'gotten' is a made- up word too so always try to use it as much as possible to show you are speaking proper Colloquial English.
Brian
gobsmacked? WoW
gob‧smacked British English spoken informal
very surprised or shocked
WORD FOCUS: surprised
very surprised: amazed, astonished, astounded, dumbfounded, staggered, flabbergasted, gobsmacked BrE informal, speechless, be lost for words, can't believe your eyes/earssurprised
➔ See also surprised
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Yeah, you gotta' watch Jim and his English English speech. He throws 'whist's around like that is a real word. He is a bad influence I tells' ya'.
That's OK, the Limeys think 'gotten' is a made- up word too so always try to use it as much as possible to show you are speaking proper Colloquial English.
Brian
As in: "He'da gotten gobsmacked if'n he talked like that round these here parts."?
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Sort of like that- you could really confuse things if you could work a 'G'day' in there someplace. A 'WHEN SUDDENLY' could also be a nice touch.
Maybe something like this: I was wandering through the back garden (back yard in real speak) WHEN SUDDENLY I was gobsmacked at how these colonists can spoil (means ruin in real English) what is shaping up to be a lovely (means 'nice') G'day (not sure of the meaning but seems to be connected with Barbie having shrimp) by speaking. So I went indoors (means 'inside'), worked on a project by breaking it down to bits (means 'take apart') until it was spoiled (still means 'ruined') and having to bin it (means 'throw it away').
Eh what Gov?
Brian (means 'Brian' except a lot of people misspell it 'Brain')
As in: "He'da gotten gobsmacked if'n he whilst talking talked like that round these here parts."?
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I don't think that's a misspelling. More of Freudian slip, methinks.
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Sorry... won't happen again... :-[
believe it or not, I don't remember having read any big thread about it. You know, where after 4 or 5 posts people use the K-word and start waving their FOBs and pointing at the dyno oil as the culprit of all evil. Then Steve starts playing with barbie dolls and fotographing them in provocative outfits hugging his FOB in suggestive manners...
I did that back when I was attending photography classes as part of a homework exercise on "product lighting". Perhaps now that i shoot real people in the real studio I should have Tiffany or such pose with my mad pow-ah FOB (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/LR%20700/SRW_1497-Edit.jpg)
Steve is another story entirely..... The man is in his own world. However, this forum welcomes characters of all types. Wouldn't be as fun, otherwise.
That rattle has been with us from day one and as W14 states, some don't have it all. Mine has been rattling pretty much since I've bought it in the summer of 2007. I've got 50k on it and no problems to speak of. I've tried different oils, filters, kept bike on the side stand, kept bike on the center stand. Not much change at all. At one point it got more quiet than normal but now it's getting back to the same noise. I don't worry about it any more as it hasn't caused any harm. There were some early threads in the previous incarnation of this forum that were quite lengthy and speculative on the source of the noise, probably before your time here. But it all comes down to that some bikes do it and some don't and there is no harm from it that we're aware of.
Unfortunately I have to act different outside of the forum and be the normal, career-minded, quiet, reserved type. You wouldn't recognize me. Hope to shake your hand one day.
But of course the pow-ah of KiPass has changed me tremendously (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
If a Kawi doesn't rattle take it to the shop and let the warranty service manager know something is wrong - its trying to become a HONDA!
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All is right with the world.....
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Mine always rattles if started while leaning on the kickstand, if I start it while on the centerstand it doesn't rattle.
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Mine always rattles if started while leaning on the kickstand, if I start it while on the centerstand it doesn't rattle.
Mine pretty much acts the same, always has from day 1.
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It will eventually.
The tensioner has a seal that is supposed to retain oil inside it under pressure.
Over time the seal weakens and the pressure gets released.
It's not really an issue w.r.t. reliability unless yer in the habit of starting the bike and vrooming straight off rather than letting her warm up for a few seconds or minutes.
If it REALLY worries you then buy a new tensioner and fit it.
Waste of money IMHO.
Being a ratchet type tensioner one day it will go quiet (moves forward a notch) and you will start panic-ing that it DIDN'T do the startup rattle. <LOL>
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~30,000 miles on my 10 and it has rattled on every cold start since new.
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~30,000 miles on my 10 and it has rattled on every cold start since new.
Don't expect it to stop at 60,000 if its anything like my '10
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Mine doesn't have a seal, just a tight fit between a ground piston and reamed aluminum (aluminium) housing. It looks like this:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Autotensionerexplodedview.jpg)
The oil will always leak out given more than just a couple of hours no matter what viscosity or type used. The piston is bound to leak but given that the hydraulic fluid is motor oil and the fit is really quite close, it is a slow leak to be sure and more than adequate for the job. The rattle does not hurt anything but it does scare and / or annoy some people.
Brian
It will eventually.
The tensioner has a seal that is supposed to retain oil inside it under pressure.
Over time the seal weakens and the pressure gets released.
It's not really an issue w.r.t. reliability unless yer in the habit of starting the bike and vrooming straight off rather than letting her warm up for a few seconds or minutes.
If it REALLY worries you then buy a new tensioner and fit it.
Waste of money IMHO.
Being a ratchet type tensioner one day it will go quiet (moves forward a notch) and you will start panic-ing that it DIDN'T do the startup rattle. <LOL>
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Ya, I was wondering if 5x40 oil viscosity was too thin when cold and might cause the rattle in my 08.
guess I'll live with it, tho it didn't seem to rattle when I used 15X40 Rotella
maybe my imagination
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Ya, I was wondering if 5x40 oil viscosity was too thin when cold and might cause the rattle in my 08.
guess I'll live with it, tho it didn't seem to rattle when I used 15X40 Rotella
maybe my imagination
Been using 5W40 Rotella for a long time. My last oil change I went with Valvoline 4T 10W40 Motorcycle oil. No change in start up rattle.
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Mine doesn't have a seal, just a tight fit between a ground piston and reamed (aluminium) housing. It looks like this:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Autotensionerexplodedview.jpg)
The oil will always leak out given more than just a couple of hours no matter what viscosity or type used. The piston is bound to leak but given that the hydraulic fluid is motor oil and the fit is really quite close, it is a slow leak to be sure and more than adequate for the job. The rattle does not hurt anything but it does scare and / or annoy some people.
Brian
Looks exactly like the tensioner on my zx14. If it is then there is another solution that automatically adjusts and is also maintenance free. Its a modified z x 1 2 r tensioner. it is entirely spring loaded, not hydraulic at all. And uses a much finer ratcheting mechanism. After installing it my bike doesn't rattle at all anymore.
Just a thought.
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Funny thing but the part number for the ZX 14 and the C-14 CCTs are different. But they seem to interchange as I am using a ZX 14 mechanical CCT in my C-14. I do not know what the difference is, and I cannot say that they are interchangeable but it would seem that way.
Brian
Looks exactly like the tensioner on my zx14. If it is then there is another solution that automatically adjusts and is also maintenance free. Its a modified z x 1 2 r tensioner. it is entirely spring loaded, not hydraulic at all. And uses a much finer ratcheting mechanism. After installing it my bike doesn't rattle at all anymore.
Just a thought.
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Well, I said that the oil type and viscosity would not matter but I did not mean that there would be no change. I said it badly the first time and not much better this time- perhaps I can explain.
The oil will leak out of the CCT (cam chain tensioner) no matter what viscosity that oil is, especially when the oil is warm. That said, thicker oil will leak more slowly than thinner oil, especially when it is cold. :-) So let's say that particular 5W-40 oil takes 12 hours to leak out of the CCT when the engine and oil are fully heated. Using a 15W-40 weight oil will slow that process so that it might take 18 hours to leak down. So the thicker oil will not prevent the start- up rattle but it will push it off to a later time and if you start the bike w/in the longer time period the rattle will not be there with the thicker oil. Also a thicker oil will come up to full pressure more quickly on start up so even if the rattle is there it might be noticeably shorter than when using the thin oil.
So oil type / weight is not a preventative or cure but it very well could change how and when the rattle appears. Still, I would not worry about it and would use any oil you are comfortable with, especially if that oil is w/in or close to the parameters specified by Kawasaki. If thicker oil calms the start- up rattle and you like that, then by all means continue to use that oil just for that reason. (seriously, not sarcastically)
Brian
Ya, I was wondering if 5x40 oil viscosity was too thin when cold and might cause the rattle in my 08.
guess I'll live with it, tho it didn't seem to rattle when I used 15X40 Rotella
maybe my imagination
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Martin, do you actually own a C14? :)
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Martin, do you actually own a C14? :)
naah, the cousin of my sister's boyfriend's aunt's friend told me about them. Never ridden one, though :'(
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You really should ride one, but stay off the black ones...they're the slowest. ;)
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If mine rattled like that all the time I would paint it dark green with bright yellow trim and put some kind of farm implement on the back. ;D
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If mine rattled like that all the time I would paint it dark green with bright yellow trim and put some kind of farm implement on the back. ;D
Or perhaps disable two of the cylinders, paint it chrome, and throw a Harley badge on it?
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Mine never rattles (well, I never hear it).
I always install my ear plugs, then get on the bike and stand it up straight before starting it. Then when it lights off, and the Two Bros dual exhaust awakens the neighborhood, it all sounds just right. ;) 8)
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Or perhaps disable two of the cylinders, paint it chrome, and throw a Harley badge on it?
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/eek.gif)
Just the badge alone will slow that bish down tremendously
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You really should ride one, but stay off the black ones...they're the slowest. ;)
You're missinformed. Black ones are just polite and care about other people's ego. They let you think that they can't go faster when, in fact, they are just cruising around, not even trying 8)
About the blackness: I booked the next service for next Thursday and I'm having a serious talk with my wallet about powder coating the rims in black. Oh, that ZG is a contagious pest... ;)
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You're right about him being a pest. He is a virus of the first rank when it comes to black bikes. Don't listen to him or he'll infest you to the point of painting everything black.
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The zx 14 and the zx12 tensioners side by side.
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About the blackness: I booked the next service for next Thursday and I'm having a serious talk with my wallet about powder coating the rims in black. Oh, that ZG is a contagious pest... ;)
;D ;D ;D
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11.6 on my SilverDammit? nuttin but a pipe :) At 6000 Elev wit da bags
is Black Faster?
jus sayin:)
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11.6 on my SilverDammit? nuttin but a pipe :) At 6000 Elev wit da bags
If you are saying 1/4 mile, I have several documents from the web averaging 10.76@126 MPH as the best stock C14 times. By "pipe", I suspect you mean muffler, and that will make little to no performance difference.
is Black Faster?
No
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Well, they certainly look the same and it is unlikely Kawasaki or any other mfg. would vary something like the CCT bore size by, say, 0.10 mm between models so they probably are interchangeable.
By the way, way back in the olden days Kawasaki designed a really clever 3- ball Sprague type self adjusting CCT for the KZ 1300 (the six cylinder). The only problem was that the balls dug into the shaft (easy boys!) after a bunch of miles and the CCT would suddenly retract and some valves would 'interrupt' some pistons. The 'fix' for the problem was to use a ZX 11 CCT, which looked exactly like the one you show in your photo- maybe this is a lesson we have to learn a few times?
Brian
The zx 14 and the zx12 tensioners side by side.
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If you are saying 1/4 mile, I have several documents from the web averaging 10.76@126 MPH as the best stock C14 times. By "pipe", I suspect you mean muffler, and that will make little to no performance difference.
But have YOU ridden the 1/4 mile at 10.76? My best time has been 11.76 at 6000ft elevation, Colorado thank you, and "da pipe' is a slip on Staintune, so bike is actually stock.
Apparently, I didn't make my intentions clear, was just ribbing the owners of the Black ones:)
'Scuse me if I offended you:)
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If you are saying 1/4 mile, I have several documents from the web averaging 10.76@126 MPH as the best stock C14 times. By "pipe", I suspect you mean muffler, and that will make little to no performance difference.
But have YOU ridden the 1/4 mile at 10.76? My best time has been 11.76 at 6000ft elevation, Colorado thank you, and "da pipe' is a slip on Staintune, so bike is actually stock.
Apparently, I didn't make my intentions clear, was just ribbing the owners of the Black ones:)
'Scuse me if I offended you:)
He is always offended by all things anti-bazooka.
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Now, that's an avatar, Pokey! :thumbs:
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+1. Me likey!
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But have YOU ridden the 1/4 mile at 10.76?
OMG no. I have not even tried :)
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Now, that's an avatar, Pokey! :thumbs:
I thought it was time I posted a pic of me.
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Right..... ::)