Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: martin_14 on August 21, 2012, 08:15:20 AM
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I mentioned before how a German factory test driver taught me to use the rear brake in order to alleviate the strong sensitivity of the C14 to fore/aft weight shift due to gas inputs.
Well, this weekend I drove from Switzerland to Italy through the famous San Bernardino Pass and had the chance to practice, and I think I nailed it. I could all but eliminate abrut reactions from the bike while gunning it at the exit of the curves (a Ferrari 575 in front and a Nissan GTR behind kept the game high). The weight of the bike is still there (there's so much you can do with physics), but the rear brake trick to tame the chassis while going on the gas really works. It requires practice, but it's a very rewarding excercise.
I like the San Bernardino Pass because it seems like the people who paved this old Roman road looked at the shortest way from one point to the next one and just filled it with curves. Some of them are trouly unnecessary, but the result is that you have a lot of run off areas in case you cook it. The bike won't survive, but if you go ATGATT it will only mean a few broken bones. Compared to most Alpine passes, that's an improvement.
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Trail braking is great once you get the technique down. :thumbs:
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Man I sure wish we had roads like that. i am on the Canadian Praries. Flat Straight.
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I trail brake, but with the front, not the rear. More so on the gsxr, less so on the C14.
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I mentioned before how a German factory test driver taught me to use the rear brake in order to alleviate the strong sensitivity of the C14 to fore/aft weight shift due to gas inputs.
Well, this weekend I drove from Switzerland to Italy through the famous San Bernardino Pass and had the chance to practice, and I think I nailed it. I could all but eliminate abrut reactions from the bike while gunning it at the exit of the curves (a Ferrari 575 in front and a Nissan GTR behind kept the game high). The weight of the bike is still there (there's so much you can do with physics), but the rear brake trick to tame the chassis while going on the gas really works. It requires practice, but it's a very rewarding excercise.
I like the San Bernardino Pass because it seems like the people who paved this old Roman road looked at the shortest way from one point to the next one and just filled it with curves. Some of them are trouly unnecessary, but the result is that you have a lot of run off areas in case you cook it. The bike won't survive, but if you go ATGATT it will only mean a few broken bones. Compared to most Alpine passes, that's an improvement.
That looks like an awesome road. I rented a BMW 318i and took E43/13 south through there (from Frankfurt) when I was visiting many years ago. If I had known about the San Bernardino Pass road, I would have taken that as well.
I would be interested to hear how your trail braking tactics work with a newer GTR1400, with the linked brakes. I find mine tends to cause the nose to dive just a little plus a quick little pull to the right on the bars, which is unsettling to me when running hot through a corner.
I wonder what the guy behind you though when your brake lights kept coming on as you were powering out of the corner (unless he knew about trail braking).
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I would be interested to hear how your trail braking tactics work with a newer GTR1400, with the linked brakes. I find mine tends to cause the nose to dive just a little plus a quick little pull to the right on the bars, which is unsettling to me when running hot through a corner.
Sorry, but mine is an '08, so no linked brakes. I should have put that somewhere in the post, as Jim advised... ;D
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Sorry, but mine is an '08, so no linked brakes. I should have put that somewhere in the post, as Jim advised... ;D
I already knew that. I was just commenting that I wonder how you would do with linked brakes. If you get the chance to demo a newer one, let us know. :)
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I already knew that. I was just commenting that I wonder how you would do with linked brakes. If you get the chance to demo a newer one, let us know. :)
I've trail braked on several bikes with linked brakes. First of all, if you are using the rear pedal only you are getting enough rear bias not to matter. Second, if you are braking so hard that it is creating problems you are braking too hard going into a curve. Trail braking on the street should be fairly mild braking. If you are into the corner too hot then you have other problems and trail braking is the wrong tool for the job.
Further, I would be very careful recommending this to anyone unless you know they are an above average rider (meaning ABOVE AVERAGE - not just thinking they are). Rear braking into a curve is a very good way to low side if you are not a very good rider already in the twisties.
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I already knew that. I was just commenting that I wonder how you would do with linked brakes. If you get the chance to demo a newer one, let us know. :)
Keep in mind that there are different settings for the linking on the 2nd gen. Strong and medium (or perhaps medium and weak). In the lower setting, you are certainly getting more rear than front. If you are just using it for trail braking, I don't think it would be a problem (although I really don't know, since I am nowhere near that good).
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Sorry, but mine is an '08, so no linked brakes. I should have put that somewhere in the post, as Jim advised... ;D
:)
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The last trackday I did I learn't about trail braking using the front brake only. I was a little confused until it was explained and I practiced it.
Basically the idea is to hang onto a little front brake as you enter a corner. This keeps the front suspension compressed slightly which addresses some stability, and more importantly shortens the wheelbase making for quicker turn in. At least that's how I remember it.
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The last trackday I did I learn't about trail braking using the front brake only. I was a little confused until it was explained and I practiced it.
Basically the idea is to hang onto a little front brake as you enter a corner. This keeps the front suspension compressed slightly which addresses some stability, and more importantly shortens the wheelbase making for quicker turn in. At least that's how I remember it.
You've got me there :o
Maybe I'm not describing trail braking. Well, I'm not sure what I'm describing, in the sense that I don't know what's the name for it. The guy who taught me this was a colleague hauling a$$ and scraping pegs in a K1600GT while I was following him with my bike. We swaped bikes and he just took off from me. When we stopped again he told me that the C14 is way more sporty but the harsh reaction when going from braking to gas was too unsettling, and told me to use the rear brake to soften things down.
Basically, I was talking about the exit of the curve, not the entry. When coming into the curve I brake hard (both front and rear) before leaning and gradually release both brakes. About the apex, front brake is completely released, but I keep a hair of pressure on the rear, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how tight the curve is and therefore how low my speed is. The lower the speed, the more rear brake I need to control how the power is unleashed when I get on the gas and upsets the chassis.
Due to the duolever arrangements, the K-line of BMWs don't have this issue, which makes them nicer in this regard.
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On exit...really? I've never had an issue on exit, just rachet (or roll) on the gas.
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I'm not a track racer but I have a old friend that is , he also teaches , he said he never uses the rear brake.
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...he said he never uses the rear brake.
I could post just a :popcorn: and be done with it, but I have many reasons to think that your friend is wrong, chief among which, the rear brake is there for quite a few reasons. We all know that the perfect braking is just when the rear tire is about to leave the ground. But that is a theoretical maneuver and a full stop is just one of the things a brake system is there for.
I don't know your friend, but I know racers and the engineers behind them in a few categories, Superbike being my favorite. I trust them and I learnt from them to rely in all the means available to have a blast on a bike. One of the first things I learnt was that, to go fast, you have to brake a lot. If the rear brake was of no use, one could save the weight and cost. Yet they keep putting them on bikes and not for marketing.
Back to the rear brake application on the exit of a hairpin just while gunning it, my suggestion is to get to a road with some hairpins and try the technique out. If it doesn't do anything for you, ditch what I said. It works for me and clearly makes me a faster rider. Even better, I feel more confident attacking tight curves or doing U-turns. Every now and then I read the CDA board and so many drops happen at low speed (it happened to me with my previous bike) that I thought I needed to improve something. This did the trick.
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I'm not a track racer but I have a old friend that is , he also teaches , he said he never uses the rear brake.
Lend your old friend your Connie and have him do some low speed parking lot maneuvers, throw in some sand, maybe a lil gravel and an incline or two. No rear brake use allowed.
Do you have drop protection installed on your bike?
I agree with Martin. They don't put rear brakes on bikes just because they can.
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I thought rear brakes were a holdover from HD.
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I thought rear brakes were a holdover from HD.
Well there is that, after so many went over the handle bars using those pesky front brakes and all.
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I use my rear brake all the time, no argument there.
My query was using on the exit of a corner as you accelerate out once your past the apex. This is new to me and I guess I just have to read a little bit more to understand it.
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I did a track day with Sportbike Track Time last month. One of the first things they told us in the novice group was to forget that you have a rear brake, you dont need or want it on the track. I am guessing that they may teach use of rear brake later in Intermediate or Advanced classes but in Novice, dont use it!
I was perfectly happy not using it as I only barely use it on the street, just enough to keep it in muscle memory in case I ever want to use it. I can't imagine what it would do on corner exit under power.
Matt
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Lend your old friend your Connie and have him do some low speed parking lot maneuvers, throw in some sand, maybe a lil gravel and an incline or two. No rear brake use allowed.
Do you have drop protection installed on your bike?
Gee I could swear the title of this was NAILING HAIR PINS
I guess your thinking about HAIR pins that fell out of your hair while your in a parking lot?
I live on 2.5 acres the back yard is a figure eight road , 1/3 is sand I drive on it all the time.
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Applying a bit of rear brake on the exit as you accelerate is a dirt bike trick that really helps.......in the dirt. I question it's practicality on the pavement but then again pavement is really just high traction dirt right?
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guys, I'm really not sure if I explained the technique properly, so I'll try again...
I never rode a dirt bike and anything with less than perfect friction coefficient asphalt scares me a lot. I'm talking about good road conditions, dry weather, on a hairpin (those tight Z curves going up or down a mountain side, like this (http://www.motoitinerari.com/traversata-alpi/passo-dello-stelvio.jpg)). I am talking about that moment between braking into the curve and going on the gas to accelerate out of it. When you brake, the weight is on the front, and when you accelerate it is on the rear wheel. That transition, that weight transference and the pitch change, is the aspect in which the C14 doesn't score very high. It is heavy, the drive train has backlash and the injection is not as refined as it could. It is easy to experience if you close and open the throttle quickly. Cable play magnifies this. It's like those SUVs that roll a lot and between curves they have to change the roll angle before tire contact patches find their grip, slip angle and so on.
Front brake has just been released and my right hand is on the gas now. So, in order to tame that weight transfer and do it less abrupt when the power finally goes from the right hand to the rear contact patch and starts shifting the attitude of the bike, I apply a bit of rear brake. That tames the way in which power goes to the rear wheel. As soon as the bike is [now smoothly] planted on the rear wheel and the rear suspension sag has been used, I release the brake. The whole thing probably happens within a second.
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hmmmm..gonna have to give that a try tomorrow. I understand exactly what you are trying to explain. If you make a u turn and stay in the left lane and apply lots of throttle the bike really wants to go skyward.
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Martin that sounds sweet I have got to try it!
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All this talk about cornering and I had to go ride Blood Mountain and WolfPen Gap yesterday. Not sure of the technique I used. I do know I had a hell of a time and would have needed bail money if caught. ;D
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Martin, I appreciate you bringing this technique up. We should have more of this. Thanks!
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Trail braking... rear brake. 8)
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Martin, I appreciate you bringing this technique up. We should have more of this. Thanks!
(http://mimg.ugo.com/201101/7/5/2/163257/cuts/bicenennial-man-andrew_480_poster.jpg)
One is glad to be of service.
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Trail braking... rear brake. 8)
Nope. Trail braking is not limited to the rear brake.
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Nope. Trail braking is not limited to the rear brake.
No it's not... But I'll use rear brake over front 75% of the time. Don't fear the rear brake.
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Street Savvy - Motorcycle Trail Braking
Mastering The Art Of Post-Perpendicular Deceleration
By Tim Carrithers, In the beginning, they taught you that braking and cornering don't mix. Get it done while you're perpendicular to the pavement. Now, after a few thousand miles of seat time, that same approach can get in your way. What if you need to fine-tune cornering speed after the bike is arced in and carving? Welcome to the fine art of trail braking.
Getting it wrong can be painful and expensive. Getting it right can make you smoother, faster and safer by putting cornering speed under much more precise control-especially in the dreaded decreasing-radius corner, or a blind one that opens up to reveal something you need to slow down for. Things change between that first braking marker and the arrival of Mr. Apex. And when proximity reveals a different picture, some deft trail braking lets you adapt accordingly.
As in any braking situation, forward weight transfer helps the front tire get a grip. Once you're leaned over, it's easier to write a check the contact patch can't cash, so don't overdo it. More lean angle means less rubber on the road, but a bit of forward weight transfer also compresses the fork a bit, steepening steering geometry and making the bike easier to turn.
It's a simple concept, but proper execution is complicated because it all comes down to feel. Heavy braking still happens when you're straight up and down, but carrying the brakes deeper into a bend lets you see more of it before choosing the best trajectory. Once you're steering, gradually lighten your lever pressure smoothly until you've reached the apex-a.k.a. the tightest part of the turn. At that point, you should be off the brakes and picking up the throttle for the exit.
Should you find yourself in too hot, or be surprised by something unexpected mid-corner, don't snatch at the lever. Pick the bike up slightly before lightly applying more front brake. You can also add a touch of rear brake, which will help you decelerate and steady the chassis. The front brake might be strong enough to lift the rear tire off the ground when you're straight up and down, but the rear brake is surprisingly effective once you're leaned over. And you're less likely to lose the front end if you overdo it.
When you're done trail braking, don't drop the lever like a hot potato. Easing off the lever lets the fork rebound gradually
Yeah the above sounds great for a true sport rider , on a race bike, but the Connie is not a race bike and I'm to old to slide on pavement, ouch.
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Rear braking is mentioned in this Concours test also-
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rFY945smxRI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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I started experimenting with trail braking on the track after my first really slow track day on my SV650. After 35 track days it has become automatic not only on the track but everyday riding on all my bikes.
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I find the ABS on my 2012 certainly leads me to trail brake longer and harder than on previous bikes. Still wash off majority of speed upright but dipping into the corner under brakes isn't a problem.
The linked brakes on the other hand, well, if I'm dragging the rear brake into a corner, so the front is already engaged, not so bad. It's when in a corner and already looking to the apex to start accelerating, if I want to settle down the rear with a light touch (so with no brakes engaged) then that initial tiny "grab" on the front from the linked system can be mildly offputting.
Not recomended for the novice rider because, as already mentioned, your tires start writing checks for grip they can't keep and while the ABS will prevent a lockup, it won't stop a washout.
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Not recomended for the novice rider because, as already mentioned, your tires start writing checks for grip they can't keep and while the ABS will prevent a lockup, it won't stop a washout.
That's exactly why I liked the brakes on my old R1200RT. They were semi-linked, meaning when using the front brake lever, a bit of braking pressure would also be applied to the rear, while using the rear brake pedal would not activate the front brakes. Neat.
In practice, it means you only need the lever to stop the bike, with the HECU applying as much pressure as needed in the rear without locking up. For spirited riding, you still had full control on the rear for minute adjustments.
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<snip...>
The linked brakes on the other hand, well, if I'm dragging the rear brake into a corner, so the front is already engaged, not so bad. It's when in a corner and already looking to the apex to start accelerating, if I want to settle down the rear with a light touch (so with no brakes engaged) then that initial tiny "grab" on the front from the linked system can be mildly offputting.
<... snip>
:goodpost:
That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier.
Martin, do you release then re-apply the rear before throttling up? Or do you just leave the rear engaged, dragging it through the corner until you throttle up?
I was playing around with leaving pressure on the rear until I throttled up, and it does keep the bike more stable through tight turns, but I would expect the brake wear would go up exponentially if I did this all the time.
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:goodpost:
Martin, do you release then re-apply the rear before throttling up? Or do you just leave the rear engaged, dragging it through the corner until you throttle up?
I was playing around with leaving pressure on the rear until I throttled up, and it does keep the bike more stable through tight turns, but I would expect the brake wear would go up exponentially if I did this all the time.
Mmm... I haven't thought of that. Come to think of it, I do keep my right foot on the pedal all the time; on left turns it's easier, on right turns I might duck my foot a little if I'm leaning hard. But in general, I stay on the brake. Taking to a test driver, he was pointing out something that I should have seen: this is not a technique to brake the bike in the curve in case somethin midturn happens (curve getting tighter, obstacle, etc.). The proper reaction to something like that is leaning further, not braking.
Hovering the rear brake enables one to smoothen the bike's reactions when going from braking to gas.
I really like this discussion. Writing about it made me research and pay more attention when driving, and I'm getting better at it. I guess it's a way to compensate for my lack of confidence when leaning the bike, so I have to look for other ways to perfect the way I take curves... :-\
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Last year when I did the Ticket to Ride Event, I trail braked with the N1K. Was very intuitive and the feedback was perfect. Next bike out was the C14 and it was a totally different experience. The control was where I wanted it but the nose dive was unnerving..I still went with the C14 obviously but am intent on mastering the braking aspect on this bike. I have a long way to go
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The control was where I wanted it but the nose dive was unnerving..
Look into adjusting the preload on your front shocks.
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Look into adjusting the preload on your front shocks.
Or maybe add Ohlins... ?? ;)
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Look into adjusting the preload on your front shocks.
Will more than likely do this after my learning curve gets to where adjusting is needed...I looked into this early on but decided to hold off. Good tip..Thanks!
Much easier than my other bike where springs and viscosity changes are needed..
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Or maybe add Ohlins... ?? ;)
Not everyone has a extra house payment laying around to buy suspenders but just keep rubbing it in there okay. ;)
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Not everyone has a extra house payment laying around to buy suspenders but just keep rubbing it in there okay. ;)
:rotflmao: :stirpot: :grouphug: