Hard to find oil leak.....

[emjayw]

Hello, after returning last week from a 2100 mile quick trip through Colorado I found one or two drops of oil on the floor under it each day.  Today I removed the bottom panel and used starting fluid to thoroughly degrease the area where it appears to be concentrated.  It appears to be from the area directly behind the upper portion of the shifter mounting plate.  This is a tough area to get into and clean but I've used most of a can of cleaner to get it dry in there.  I'll check later tonight to see if any seepage has occured and where exactly it's coming from before I dig any further.  This area was pretty damp in there so it's been seeping for a while.  I've already checked the clutch pushrod seal and that's dry.  So is the shift shaft.  I realize that pretty much points to the water pump area but I'll give it until tomorrow before I open it up any more.  Any thoughts?,  Comments?  I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has been "into" this area and what you found.  My '01 has just 21K on it and did not leak a drop before I made this trip.  (if it did leak, it was so little that it didn't get anything "wet", just dirty and greasy)
Thanks,  Mike in TX

[snarf]

Take a close look from underneath your bike; look upward to the bottom of you waterpump.  There is a small weep hole that oil can leak out of. 
Or you shifter seal is leaking.  I just replaced my waterpump because of this.  I could have just replaced the o-ring, but it was on an 86 son I figured wth

[emjayw]

Yep, that's the culprit.  Only took a 2 minute run to make that hole start weeping.  Which O-ring were you alluding to Snarf?  I'd like to think that a low-mileage bike like this could get by without a pump swap, but I'd rather be safe than do it twice.  Mike

[MAN OF BLUES]

IT'S not an o-ring, it is a shaft seal.
92049-1416 Water Pump Seal All years

92055-1271 Water Pump O-ring
92055-1424 Large O-ring
these o-rings are the one for the pilot where it fits into the block and one for the cover on the waterpump

[Summit670]

Don't forget the o-ring on the water pipe that connects to the pump.

Also, you don't need to pull the water pump cover if you don't want to.  Just pull the whole assy out.

As reference for others, you can take a mirror and then look up in that area with a flashlight when it is dark outside.  Easy to see things that way.  I used a 6" dia mirror fyi.

And, when you put that new seal in, make sure to seal it with some Loctite because the fit is somewhat loose compared to what it should be.  I suppose you could go to a bearing supply house with the pump in hand and let them measure it for a seal that fits.  Maybe they have a slightly larger O.D. seal.

Oh, note the direction of the seal when you remove.  I believe the "open" end of seal goes toward the motor because it keeps oil in the motor.

[MAN OF BLUES]

..... I suppose you could go to a bearing supply house with the pump in hand and let them measure it for a seal that fits.  Maybe they have a slightly larger O.D. seal.
.....

already went down that road, i deal with designing seals into products frequently, went thru all of my seal manufacturers with the shaft / bore / thickness/ and type data, also with the generic seal number imprinted on the oem seal (Kaw buys it, they don't manufacture the seal..) and that is all you have for a replacement.
I found an "odd" seal oversized by .0005" on the o.d. (which would have been perfect....) once, but when i tried to purchase it, it was listed as "discontinued" by the supplier....  no joy.

[snarf]

Thanks for catching that MOB. I was getting ready to go out on a floor call and I was trying to hurry. My bad.

[emjayw]

Thanks for all of the good info.  All pieces are ordered and I'm holding off on an oil change until I do the deed.  I'll report here when she's back together and tight.  Mike in TX

[pzak95]

Is this a seal that is pressed into the the engine block or something on the pump itself? My bike is leaking oil in the same area. Hope its something relatively simple like a seal rather than the bevel gear gasket. Did the 7th gear mod just over a year and 7K miles back. Thats quite a job. Rather not tear all that apart again. My scoot has just over 107K mi. on it. Still running the original water pump. Am I running on borrowed time?

Pat

[SteveJ.]

Still running the original water pump. Am I running on borrowed time?

Pat

Some would say you are. Mine has 151k on it, and I've been told I should do a preemptive strike on it.

[Charliedog]

I'm about to order a new water pump, which come w/ the two o-rings, but I cannot find the shaft seal part number 92049-1416 on any of the online microfiche.  Where does this go, or where should I be looking for it?  TIA

Charliedog
Bristol, TN

[Charliedog]

A followup question:  I've been studying the service manual and I see the clutch slave cylinder has to be removed when replacing the water pump, can this be done without draining the hydraulic fluid out of it first?  Also, what's the torque spec on the bolts holding it in place, I don't see that in the service manual?  TIA

Charliedog
Bristol, TN

[CRocker]

Yep, that's the culprit.  Only took a 2 minute run to make that hole start weeping.  Which O-ring were you alluding to Snarf?  I'd like to think that a low-mileage bike like this could get by without a pump swap, but I'd rather be safe than do it twice.  Mike

I started to smell burning oil when I came to a stop this week...I have removed the belly pan...but I have not cleaned the underside of the engine yet...so, it's just oily and nasty...and I can't see any point of origin of the leak...but, I have let the bike ('88 with 51k) idle in the garage (with the door open!) for fifteen minutes without a drop showing up underneath the engine...anyone have any input?  Still thinking water pump???

Thanks in advance!

[MAN OF BLUES]

I'm about to order a new water pump, which come w/ the two o-rings, but I cannot find the shaft seal part number 92049-1416 on any of the online microfiche.  Where does this go, or where should I be looking for it?  TIA

Charliedog
Bristol, TN

you won't find it in any micro-fiche....that's why I gave the number for it here......

If you bought a NEW pump, you don't need the seal, it's already installed in the pump, you'll see it, it's the one sealing the rotating shaft......

A followup question:  I've been studying the service manual and I see the clutch slave cylinder has to be removed when replacing the water pump, can this be done without draining the hydraulic fluid out of it first? 

sure, just don't pump the clutch lever by accident....

[redzgrider]

I know it's been a while since I changed my pump, but i don't recall pulling the clutch slave to do so. Even if you do have to pull it, you probably don't need to crack the line or fitting, so no need to drain or bleed afterward.

[dvitous]

I ordered water pump seals from Murph.

But my leak wasn't water pump seals... although it was a good maintenance exercise.

My leak was where the neutral switch connection comes through the cases.  I bought a new one, but there's a hard oil line that needs to come off to get at it, and didn't feel like messing with it yet.


Here's a look at it - looking up from under the left side.  Southeast of the oil site glass.  Brass fitting w/ rubber boot.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/I-nSygRcDbgExdIhgnUUew09a6CW4-wkFaT-XiwmG0E?feat=directlink

[CRocker]

I started to smell burning oil when I came to a stop this week...I have removed the belly pan...but I have not cleaned the underside of the engine yet...so, it's just oily and nasty...and I can't see any point of origin of the leak...but, I have let the bike ('88 with 51k) idle in the garage (with the door open!) for fifteen minutes without a drop showing up underneath the engine...anyone have any input?  Still thinking water pump???

Thanks in advance!

Now I have the plastic off...and the area cleaned up...and after a 25 mile ride...it looks like I have a twofer!  Clear fluid seems to be leaking from the clutch slave...and oil appears to be coming out of the external oil line right in front of the gear pattern molded into the case...the bolt seems tight...so, I am thinking it must be the sealing washers???  I haven't found this oil line that passes just below the sight glass on the fiche yet...can anybody tell me what it does?

I have a used clutch slave as a spare...should I rebuild it before I put it on?  Or, should I put it on and take a chance?

Any and all input is appreciated...

Thanks!

[MAN OF BLUES]

remove and replace the copper washers on the banjo bolt fitting, and rebuild your spare slave prior to installing it. Doing the job once beats doing it twice.....

[CRocker]

Now I have the plastic off...and the area cleaned up...and after a 25 mile ride...it looks like I have a twofer!  Clear fluid seems to be leaking from the clutch slave...and oil appears to be coming out of the external oil line right in front of the gear pattern molded into the case...the bolt seems tight...so, I am thinking it must be the sealing washers???  I haven't found this oil line that passes just below the sight glass on the fiche yet...can anybody tell me what it does?

I have a used clutch slave as a spare...should I rebuild it before I put it on?  Or, should I put it on and take a chance?

Any and all input is appreciated...

Thanks!

Thanks to all!  After using the "white foot spray powder" technique...I have discovered that my leak is coming from the clutch slave cylinder housing...but, since there is no loss of fluid in the m/c, should I assume it is the pushrod seal leaking and the oil just draining out of the slave housing?

Again, thanks in advance!

[emjayw]

Lots of great information in this thread.  As promised, I yanked my Water Pump this week and replaced the offending seal.  Thanks for posting that part# as I'm sure big Kaw wouldn't let me at it.  I used an upside-down large 1/2" drive socket to drive the seal in, then painted the edge with red loctite (just enough to "seal"  the groove between it and the pump body.  Unless your pump and cooling system are in bad shape, don't split the pump, just pop the bad seal out with a small screwdriver (it comes out easy) and clean up the area under it with alcohol and Q-tips before installing the new one.  Bleeding the system was a breeze too.  To drain for pump removal: Remove the bolt on the pump and try to catch all of the coolant with a large shallow pan, then also open the bleed screw at the bottom of the output line behind the exhaust pipe and that'll be all you need out of the system.  (about 3 qts.)  Remove the outside line between the radiator and the pump to make enough room for working.  When you fill it back up, go slowly and after 2 qts. are in, open the bleed bolt on the pump until only coolant comes out (no air).  If you haven't done it already, remove the gas tank and open the bleeder on the thermostat housing.  I put a 12" length of hose on it and ran it to a catch bottle while I continued filling through the radiator very slowly until the coolant flowed from the bleeder without air.  All told it took about 3 qts. of Honda's coolant to bring the bike back on line, including refilling the recovery tank.  After all the work, I have no leaks and am well satisfied with my work.  Thanks for all the good advice and help.  BTW: the slave cylinder doesn't need bled, just remove the 3 bolts evenly and it'll push itself out. Mike in TX