Poll

Have you tried the "TPS Calibration" Procedure?  What are your findings?  (After you vote here, Describe your actual findings in a post, and please note the mileage you believe the issue started, and the current mileage on your bike.)

Gen 1, Throttle Issues Before, Running Smooth After.
2 (2.7%)
Gen 1, Throttle Issues Before, No Change.
1 (1.3%)
Gen 1, Throttle Issues Before, Running Rough After.
0 (0%)
Gen 1, Throttle OK Before, Running Smooth After.
3 (4%)
Gen 1, Throttle OK Before, No Change.
10 (13.3%)
Gen 1, Throttle OK Before, Running Rough After.
0 (0%)
-------------------------------BREAK-------------------------------
0 (0%)
Gen 2, Throttle Issues Before, Running Smooth After.
7 (9.3%)
Gen 2, Throttle Issues Before, No Change.
1 (1.3%)
Gen 2, Throttle Issues Before, Running Rough After.
0 (0%)
Gen 2, Throttle OK Before, Running Smooth After.
1 (1.3%)
Gen 2, Throttle OK Before, No Change.
2 (2.7%)
Gen 2, Throttle OK Before, Running Rough After.
0 (0%)
-------------------------------BREAK-------------------------------
0 (0%)
Engine WARM when calibration sequence was run.
11 (14.7%)
Engine COLD when calibration sequence was run.
13 (17.3%)
Have you unplugged your battery, and the issues started AFTER the battery unplug?
1 (1.3%)
Have you unplugged your battery, but the issues started BEFORE the battery unplug?
2 (2.7%)
After Calibration FUEL MILEAGE INCREASED (Assuming same riding style)
2 (2.7%)
After Calibration FUEL MILEAGE DECREASED (Assuming same riding style)
0 (0%)
Did your Idle INCREASE?
1 (1.3%)
Did your Idle STAY THE SAME?
15 (20%)
Did your Idle DECREASE?
3 (4%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Author Topic: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)  (Read 73312 times)

Offline jimmymac

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2014, 07:20:35 PM »
screwed, without the benefit of a reach around. 

stud insertion and removal.

The third member

old dry gloves and the grip warmers


Do I need to go back and find more? 8)
The grass isn't always greener.

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2014, 07:30:51 PM »
screwed, without the benefit of a reach around. 

stud insertion and removal.

The third member

old dry gloves and the grip warmers


Do I need to go back and find more? 8)

Must recalibrate my mind.  Do I turn myself on, twist my throttle twice, turn myself off, and then rev my motor? 8)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2014, 08:19:00 PM »
And you must do it with one eye shut..  Preferably after at least two shots of Vodka.
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Offline Stephen.G.Fiddes

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2014, 09:09:24 PM »
Must recalibrate my mind.  Do I turn myself on, twist my throttle twice, turn myself off, and then rev my motor? 8)

Best if your significant other does it for you  ::)
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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2014, 09:35:49 PM »
Best if your significant other does it for you  ::)
Well, she has the diagnostic equipment I don't, so that may be the way to go, kinda like getting "flashed", if ya get my drift ;)

Offline martin_14

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2014, 02:16:42 AM »
Now lets say you have an un-calibrated system.  For this demo we'll use TPS 25% TPS 100% (This is what I did in the video, by setting the throttle lock to ~25% and running the calibration.)  Now the ECU and TPS are mismatched.  The ECU see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 200CC's of fuel in.

[CHART 3]
ECU     0% - 1.46V - 200CC
ECU   25% - 2.04V - 275CC
ECU   50% - 2.62V - 350CC
ECU   75% - 3.20V - 425CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC


The ECU is now programmed to see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 200CC's of fuel in.  Because it's a simple computer, it cannot detect a negative percentage, so when you close the ACTUAL THROTTLE, the ECU is still putting out it's current minimum amount of fuel set for TPS 25%, because according to the ECU's calibrated programming, TPS 25% = ECU 0%  Thus when you close the throttle completely, and the ECU is still putting out TPS 25% of fuel, but the Throttle is a 0%, you run into an extremely rich condition, thus making the engine run rough and inefficient.

[CHART 4]

                             Correct
                             Fuel CC
TPS    0% = 0.68V  100CC    ECU OUT OF RANGE - 200CC   - RICH CONDITION  (HESITATION OCCURS HERE due to incomplete combustion)
TPS  25% = 1.46V  200CC    ECU     0% - 1.46V - 200CC    - Correct A/F Mixture (SPIKE IN RPMs OCCURS HERE)
TPS  50% = 2.23V  300CC    ECU   33% - 2.23V - 232CC    - Lean condition, less power, requiring slightly more throttle, using more fuel to maintain speed
TPS  75% = 3.01V  400CC    ECU   67% - 3.01V - 364CC    - Less lean condition, but still down on power, requiring slightly more throttle so on...
TPS 100%= 3.78V  500CC    ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC    - Proper A/F mixture


Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking... I'm not an engineer.


Stephen, it took me a while but I think that I found the mistake in your logic. I marked the sentence that leads to the mistake. As one can see from Chart 3, the ECU is not programmed to
"see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS voltage is 1.46V"
but instead, the ECU is programmed to
"see that when the TPS voltage is 1.46V, the throttle is fully closed" --> although in our example it isn't because we stopped it from closing by using a Go-Cruise.

Hence, any voltage below the 1.46 threshold will be seen by the ECU still as 0% throttle opening (because it cannot deal with negative %) and will be injecting the fuel for that throttle opening, which as Rembrandt pointed out, is idle. Therefore, although the throttle is slightly open (between 0% and 20%), the ECU thinks that it's fully closed and it injects too little (just enough for idle) --> lean condition. In fact, if the 100% throttle opening is correctly calibrated, the bike will run lean up until that point, all over the throttle opening range.

I added a table below, and also an example in which the WOT has been incorrectly calibrated. In particular, a case in which at the time of calibrating the full open throttle, the throttle was opened only to 80%, so the ECU learns that 4V mean 100% throttle opening. The bike will then run rich.

For my table, I assumed that the voltages go from 0V at closed throttle, to 5V at wide open throttle. I also assumed that at closed throttle the engine needs 1 cm³ of fuel (to keep it at idle), and at WOT it needs 20 cm³.

BTW, I am an engineer, but that's no guarantee, is it?  ;D

Regarding Rembrandt's measurements, of course the voltages stay the same. It's not important the voltages that the ECU sees, what's important is how it converts them to throttle opening.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 03:10:04 AM by martin_14 »
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Offline copdocpvd

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2014, 07:48:29 AM »
I'm surprised this isn't in the service manual or owner's manual.  My car (Chrysler 300c) requires the same procedure when replacing a battery, and it's also part of "re-setting" the adaptive transmission (you pull a specific fuse, replace it, do the TPS re-set, and it starts fresh instead of granny shifting all the time).

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Offline martin_14

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2014, 08:22:04 AM »
bump.

After analysing the theory behind it, I gave a try to this procedure. Sure enough, I noticed a few things:

- idle went down by about 150 rpm. I like it at 1150 and it went down to 1000. Same temperature, etc. It just went down.

- hesitation is gone. Period. I have been fighting this phenomenon since day 1 and been nothing but frustrated. When I first got the bike I was amazed at how tame it was, but after a while I wanted a 1352 cc engine (which I paid for), not a 600 cc. So flies out, PCV in. Power and torque were restored, specially under 4000 rpm, but the hesitation (coughing) continued. That off-on throttle counter-explosion that bothered me every single time. Next I added a throttle tamer. Better, but absolutely still there. It just got easier to avoid it by being gentle, but I don't like being gentle when I'm chasing (or, more often than not, being chased by) my friends in their bikes. Now it's solved. I just can't get her to do it. It's great.

- I have to sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.

Me happy.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 02:35:39 AM by martin_14 »
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Offline Stephen.G.Fiddes

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2014, 08:29:33 AM »
<snip>

- I have sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.

Me happy.

LOL! I had the same thought when I went riding after I did this. 
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Offline Stephen.G.Fiddes

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2014, 08:34:51 AM »

Stephen, it took me a while but I think that I found the mistake in your logic. I marked the sentence that leads to the mistake. As one can see from Chart 3, the ECU is not programmed to
"see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS voltage is 1.46V"
but instead, the ECU is programmed to
"see that when the TPS voltage is 1.46V, the throttle is fully closed" --> although in our example it isn't because we stopped it from closing by using a Go-Cruise.

Hence, any voltage below the 1.46 threshold will be seen by the ECU still as 0% throttle opening (because it cannot deal with negative %) and will be injecting the fuel for that throttle opening, which as Rembrandt pointed out, is idle. Therefore, although the throttle is slightly open (between 0% and 20%), the ECU thinks that it's fully closed and it injects too little (just enough for idle) --> lean condition. In fact, if the 100% throttle opening is correctly calibrated, the bike will run lean up until that point, all over the throttle opening range.

I added a table below, and also an example in which the WOT has been incorrectly calibrated. In particular, a case in which at the time of calibrating the full open throttle, the throttle was opened only to 80%, so the ECU learns that 4V mean 100% throttle opening. The bike will then run rich.

For my table, I assumed that the voltages go from 0V at closed throttle, to 5V at wide open throttle. I also assumed that at closed throttle the engine needs 1 cm³ of fuel (to keep it at idle), and at WOT it needs 20 cm³.

BTW, I am an engineer, but that's no guarantee, is it?  ;D

Regarding Rembrandt's measurements, of course the voltages stay the same. It's not important the voltages that the ECU sees, what's important is how it converts them to throttle opening.

Re-read this and it makes sense.  Ill blame the almost 2 hours I had into making that chart and my brain was starting to hurt lol. I will update it as to not pollute the interwebz with bad info.
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Offline Stephen.G.Fiddes

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #110 on: September 23, 2014, 08:52:41 AM »
Below is the updated chart 3 and 4 with updated explanation between each.

Finally had a chance to read through everything...  Had a 200 mile round trip to Hood River for work yesterday.



Anyways, OK...

So Rembrandt, you have the KDS equipment. Good to know, and if you don't mind, I'm going to pick apart the test procedure a bit, and someone PLEASE tell me if my thinking on this is wrong. I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but I am going to break this down Barney style to make sure we're working on common assumptions/ facts (if they are)

THE GLOWING LINES ARE THING'S I AM NOT 100% SURE ON. I WILL CHANGE/ UNGLOW THEM UPON CONFIRMATION.

The TPS, much like a volume knob on a guitar/ computer speakers/ etc, reads from 0%, to 100% (unless you are a kid in a garage band, then it goes to 11...). 

TPS:  (25-75% values determined with an interpolation calculator, for demonstration purposes only, these are NOT hard tested values.  0 and 100% values are tested per Rembrant using KDS above, may vary slightly between bikes)   

[CHART 1]   [THESE VALUES NEVER CHANGE EVER!]
TPS    0% = 0.68V
TPS  25% = 1.46V
TPS  50% = 2.23V
TPS  75% = 3.01V
TPS 100%= 3.78V

These TPS numbers represent 0% throttle opening, and 100% throttle opening. These Voltage numbers represent to the ECU how open the butterflies are. For the engine to run properly, the engineers have determined that it needs a certain air/ fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. The ECU reads the voltage from the TPS, and interpolates the Min/ Max voltages into percentages.  The ECU then takes this percentage, and tells the injectors to spray in the appropriate amount of fuel for that percentage of the throttle being open. The amount of fuel per volt is (from my understanding) hard-programmed into the ECU, and cannot be changed without flashing the ECU.  (At this point it goes from 'TPS throttle 0%', to the 'ECU throttle 0%' based on the voltage that the ECU is reading as 0%)

Now for all intensive purposes, lets say that the ECU tells the injectors to spray the following amounts of fuel per Volts: (FUEL CC's ARE MADE UP NUMBERS IN MY HEAD FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY!!!)

[CHART 2]   [THESE VOLTAGES CAN CHANGE BASED ON THE CALIBRATION TO THE ECU. THE CC'S PER ECU PERCENTAGE NEVER CHANGES! (<<Edited to be correct info)
ECU     0% - 0.68V - 100CC
ECU   25% - 1.46V - 200CC
ECU   50% - 2.23V - 300CC
ECU   75% - 3.01V - 400CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC


Now lets say you have an un-calibrated system.  For this demo we'll use TPS 25% TPS 100% (This is what I did in the video, by setting the throttle lock to ~25% and running the calibration.)  Now the ECU and TPS are mismatched.  The ECU see that when the throttle is fully closed (at idle), the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 100CC's of fuel in. (We know that in reality this is not the case, and that will be explained below)

[CHART 3]
ECU     0% - 1.46V - 100CC
ECU   25% - 2.04V - 200CC
ECU   50% - 2.62V - 300CC
ECU   75% - 3.20V - 400CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC


The ECU is now programmed to see that when the throttle is fully closed (at idle), the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, Therefore it needs to spray 100CC's of fuel in.  Because it's a simple computer, it cannot detect a negative percentage. When you close the throttle completely, the ECU is putting out it's current amount of fuel for idle, set for TPS 25% (1.46V - 100CC), because according to the ECU's calibrated programming, TPS 25% = ECU 0%.  Remember, the ECU cannot read negative percentages, so if ECU 0% (idle) is 1.46V, when you go below that (to TPS 0%, TRUE idle) it still sprays 100CC's of fuel.  Now the bike is idling great. But as you open the throttle between TPS 0% and 25, it will still be spraying it's minimum 100CC's of fuel.  That is not NEARLY enough to satisfy the thirst of the cylinders when that much air is going in.  This costs lots of power, and can cause the bike to hickup, or even die. 

[CHART 4]

                             Correct
                             Fuel CC
TPS    0% = 0.68V  100CC    ECU OUT OF RANGE - 100CC   - LEAN CONDITION  (HESITATION OCCURS HERE due to insufficiant combustion)
TPS  25% = 1.46V  200CC    ECU     0% - 1.46V - 100CC    - A/F Mixture starts to finally increase (SPIKE IN RPMs OCCURS HERE)
TPS  50% = 2.23V  300CC    ECU   33% - 2.23V - 232CC    - Lean condition, less power, requiring slightly more throttle, using more fuel to maintain speed
TPS  75% = 3.01V  400CC    ECU   67% - 3.01V - 364CC    - Less lean condition, but still down on power, requiring slightly more throttle so on...
TPS 100%= 3.78V  500CC    ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC    - Proper A/F mixture





By properly calibrating the system, the ECU is reading the correct butterfly opening, therefore is putting the correct amount of fuel in. 


Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking... I'm not an engineer.


[EDITED 23SEP2014 to have updated numbers and explanation regarding CHART 3 and 4]
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Son of Pappy

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #111 on: September 23, 2014, 02:16:54 PM »
bump.

After analysing the the theory behind it, I gave a try to this procedure. Sure enough, I noticed a few things:

- idle went down by about 150 rpm. I like it at 1150 and it went down to 1000. Same temperature, etc. It just went down.

- hesitation is gone. Period. I have been fighting this phenomenon since day 1 and been nothing but frustrated. When I first got the bike I was amazed at how tame it was, but after a while I wanted a 1352 cc engine (which I paid for), not a 600 cc. So flies out, PCV in. Power and torque were restored, specially under 4000 rpm, but the hesitation (coughing) continued. That off-on throttle counter-explosion that bothered me every single time. Next I added a throttle tamer. Better, but absolutely still there. It just got easier to avoid it by being gentle, but I don't like being gentle when I'm chasing (or, more often than not, being chased) by my friends in their bikes. Now it's solved. I just can't get her to do it. It's great.

- I have sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.

Me happy.

Nice!!!! :)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2014, 02:48:57 PM »
Well, I guess if everyone is doing it, I might as well too..
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Offline tomp

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #113 on: September 23, 2014, 02:54:56 PM »
Well, I guess if everyone is doing it, I might as well too..
Brian said he was going to try it, but I don't remember ever seeing a report.  I tried it and it did drop the idle down a little, but I never had any problems per se, before the recalibration. 
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Offline Stephen.G.Fiddes

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2014, 03:02:11 PM »
<snip>

 but I never had any problems per se, before the recalibration.

Then you probably wont notice a difference.  This seems to only help bikes that have a really choppy or hesitant throttle. 

That said, It's mechanical and electronic components working together. In a perfect wprld, these would be completely set from the factory, but there's no exact number.  Some throttles will be at .68V, some may be at .70V at idle. I ASSUME (read; Ass-u-me) that at the factory they program the ECU to read .68V (or whatever the actual number is) as closed/ Idle, and if there's any variance from that, thats where the issues will start. But some bikes naturally are exactly dead on...  I could be COMPLETELY wrong on that tho... and Probably am.
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Offline tomp

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2014, 03:24:52 PM »
Yep, the only change I saw was the idle drop, I mentioned.  Realized that trying the technique wouldn't hurt anything, and if something had been off, it may have even been corrected.  The 30 seconds spent was ok for me.  Who knows, it could have added 20HP if done on the third Thursday of the Month at 11:58PM.  Could have been another secret mother Kawi was hiding... ;D ;D
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #116 on: September 23, 2014, 04:07:51 PM »
I'm not having any issues with my bike except that it's too fast.
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Offline tomp

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2014, 04:12:22 PM »
I'm not having any issues with my bike except that it's too fast.

Just pull two sparkplug wires off the plugs, and too fast problem will be solved
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Offline gPink

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #118 on: September 23, 2014, 04:21:45 PM »
...or repaint it.

Offline tomp

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Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #119 on: September 23, 2014, 04:28:45 PM »
...or repaint it.
More expensive than the plug wires.   ;D tp
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