Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: rrman1 on June 29, 2014, 09:31:38 PM
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last nite bike started losing power, heard noise like chain hitting something maybe, noise quit after a minute or less, power decreased to a stop. engine tried to start once or twice but didn't. just changed oil, had just gassed up. no noise now like chain. bought 01 c10 w 4800 mi., now has 7500. ran perfect until this. put 100k plus on 75 z1 900, it jumped time twice and got valves, this was different, 900 was instantly gone. this was gradual over a few minutes, not long.. thank you for any ideas.
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You said you "JUST" gassed up right? Look in that general direction first! If the engine was starving for fuel you might very well hear some very odd sounds as the cylinders die out and cause unbalance. Did you turn to reserve and perhaps fill your carbs fill of trapped water? Did you perhaps get a load of $hitty fuel? Drain the fuel from the carb bowls and see what comes out.
An 01 with 4800 miles it nothing but that in itself can cause problems too; too much sitting around can cause issues...
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thanks t cro. will check fuel. sure hope its that simple.
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I had two float needles (carbs 2 & 3) at once get crap on them right after getting gas on the Eastern Shore a few years back and wouldn't seat to slow the fuel filling the bowls while running. As long as it was reved up it would stay running (using the excess gas). Anything below that and it would sputter then cut off. A real pain to start back up. After many flushings on the side of the road I got them cleared somewhat. When I got home, they got pulled and cleaned along with the tank and petcock being dumped and washed out. There was sand and grit in the bowls.
BTW, there was a hurricane the week before which probably added a lot of crap to the fuel storage tanks out there. Note to self: don't buy gas in a recent hurricane or flooding area - ever. The bikes got at least a 200 mile cruising range for god's sake.
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will check, rfh87 thanks for help. will be back home tomorrow.
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found prob. no fuel as you said. cranks and runs w start fluid into air box. relieved. now to disconnect hoses and find tro. thanks for help. i'm back in the saddle again. almost. in phil's words;(my 2nd cousin): happy, happy, happy.
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Kind of sounds like the problems i had just a short while ago, every time i filled the tank up the bike would run a few miles, some times 10 miles then stall and leave me stranded, quick temporary fix to get you off the road is to ''check for fuel line kinks'' ''open the gas cap'' ''drain out some fuel''. if it happens again try any of them fixes and try to start the bike.
there was just something about my bike and the emissions system that made my bike go bonkers every time i filled the tank, i think it had to do with the vacuum some how and of coarse me probably over filling the tank to many times.
not sure if i understood your post right, Did this happen shortly after filling up the gas tank?
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5 min after filling up.
thanks for help
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bike runs as long as start fluid sprayed into intake. no fuel coming thru the petcock in any position. pulled petcock out of tank. air blows thru large orifice, not small one(vacuum hookup?). any ideas on what to do next? a friend thinks petcock may be operated by a vacuum diaphram, thus the vacuum? line. thanks for any help.
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petcock positions are prime, run, reserve.
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The Prime does not require vacuum from the engine for fuel to flow.
If you have no fuel flowing while on Prime then your issue is in the gas tank or in the petcock..
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bike runs as long as start fluid sprayed into intake. no fuel coming thru the petcock in any position. pulled petcock out of tank. air blows thru large orifice, not small one(vacuum hookup?). any ideas on what to do next? a friend thinks petcock may be operated by a vacuum diaphram, thus the vacuum? line. thanks for any help.
Blockage is in the hose between the tank and the carbs?
Switch petcock over to the prime position do you have any fuel coming out of the fuel nipple on the cock?
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nothing in any position out of petcock. removed petcock. blew into gas output orifice. air passed out filters or sounded like it. ???
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nothing in any position out of petcock.
Did ya try opening the gas cap to see if perhaps your tank is not venting properly?
Sounds to me like your problem is in the petcock itself though...
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i did try to start w gas cap open.
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i'll disassemble petcock and see what it looks like. thanks to all.
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i did try to start w gas cap open.
Well that about covers it then if your not getting fuel from any position of the petcock and you've tried this with the gas cap open then your problem is in the petcock. Going off the idea that the last thing you did was take on a load of fuel right before the trouble started it sounds like you got something fugly in your cock...... :-[
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Murph Kits is the problem solver http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_94&products_id=140 (http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_94&products_id=140)
i think he has a rebuild kit to but if you just get the petcock its a bolt on and go solution.
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have fuel out petcock now in prime. filled glass. fuel looks good. going to empty carb bowls and refill and try again. it was trying to crank and runs w start fluid in airbox. thanks for help. dont know why fuel started, dont care.
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have fuel out petcock now in prime. filled glass. fuel looks good. going to empty carb bowls and refill and try again. it was trying to crank and runs w start fluid in airbox. thanks for help. dont know why fuel started, dont care.
I'd be cautious and need to know why as it might do it again.....
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dumped all fuel from tank and carbs. filled w fresh fuel. got bike running by spraying start fluid and carb cleaner in air box. it will run as long as you do this. kept it running several minutes this way. it started running w/o the spraying. rode bike two days total 200 plus miles. each day it made loud noise when start button pressed like hammer hitting on side of engine. then it would crank and run pretty good, but not as smooth as it should. now when start is pressed, engine will not turn over at all. battery is charged. could a cylinder full of fuel cause this? starter is trying to turn engine but engine wont move. could cylinder full of fuel cause the hammering sound when starting? thanks for help.
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dumped all fuel from tank and carbs. filled w fresh fuel. got bike running by spraying start fluid and carb cleaner in air box. it will run as long as you do this. kept it running several minutes this way. it started running w/o the spraying. rode bike two days total 200 plus miles. each day it made loud noise when start button pressed like hammer hitting on side of engine. then it would crank and run pretty good, but not as smooth as it should. now when start is pressed, engine will not turn over at all. battery is charged. could a cylinder full of fuel cause this? starter is trying to turn engine but engine wont move. could cylinder full of fuel cause the hammering sound when starting? thanks for help.
Yes and dont do it again. Oh boy this does not sound good. Normally you smell fuel if a cylinder is full. I think something else is going on.
Pull the spark plugs and do a bent rod test but make sure you cover the cylinders with a rag in case fuel shoots out (and you light it on fire all at the same time.) See if you can turn the engine backwards with the rear wheel and in gear. Hope fully it is just a bad starter chain.
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forgot to mention, small amount of fuel on ground day it would not turn over. thanks for help. will remove plugs, etc.
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forgot to mention, small amount of fuel on ground day it would not turn over. thanks for help. will remove plugs, etc.
Oh boy.. now it sounds more likely it was hydro-locked. hopefully you did not bend a rod. If you did not bend a rod- do not start it up again.
Pull the carbs off and ship them out for repairs and consider your self very very lucky.
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No reply for a few days on the outcome of the rod test(s). Given the last few posts I would be surprised if there were not a couple bent rods. Keeping an engine running on ether/carb sprays is never a good idea either.
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I agree and have to assume the engine is most likely toast therefore no reason to come back here to update us with the outcome.
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no fuel in cylinders. bent rod test next. still wont turn over. batty is good.
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You say "battery is charged", but have you inspected the connections? Just covering all the bases. Make sure they are fully contacting and clean, this bike likes a lot of current when starting. Check this and piston height.
That "bang" as a bad sign though. My red bike had it happen to it. I got about 25k out of it before the #3 rod bearing went (which is a trait of this motor). If you have a leaky petcock and weak float needles, gas will get by them. If you keep the bike on the centerstand gas WILL flow into the carbs , then engine, and raise the oil level (check this too). If you keep it on the sidestand, gas will most of the time pour onto the floor from the airbox (and maybe burn the house down).
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thanks for help. #4 has bent rod. no fuel in cylinders, or water. doesnt explain engine not turning does it? what is easiest way to turn engine manually? rolling down hill releasing clutch no help, short distance only.
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... doesnt explain engine not turning does it?
Sorry for your loss, but actually, it does. How much is it off? Most likely the rod is contacting the piston skirt or the blocks piston bore hole if I remember my mechanics right. If you spin it, you'll break things. Also, I think it is only rods 2 and 3 that can be replaced by dropping the oil pan. 1 and 4 have too much other stuff in the way. If you're up for a motor replacement, they can be found for around $500 on eBay. You can do it in a weekend, or spread it out over a few weeks like I did in the evenings. At least it gives you easy access to service a bunch of things.
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thanks for help. #4 has bent rod. no fuel in cylinders, or water. doesnt explain engine not turning does it? what is easiest way to turn engine manually? rolling down hill releasing clutch no help, short distance only.
With no spark plugs in have you tried putting the motor in top 6th gear and turning the rear wheel by hand?
Also removing the left side pulser cover will reveal a large hex head that you can put a wrench to; but don't put too much pressure here as if you've already busted up something on the inside then you can likely make it worse.....
With the known fact you've got a petcock fuel flow issues coupled with your statement of several starting attempts resulting in a loud bang; you've damaged your motor and if your not well versed in mechanics you need to turn this over to a better hand...
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If you consider buying a replacement engine, be careful. Make sure it also doesn't have bent rod(s). Without being able to test it, there is always a risk, even from a running bike.
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thanks for help. #4 has bent rod. no fuel in cylinders, or water. doesnt explain engine not turning does it? what is easiest way to turn engine manually? rolling down hill releasing clutch no help, short distance only.
I told you how to turn the engine over early on in one of my first posts.
Pull the spark plugs and do a bent rod test but make sure you cover the cylinders with a rag in case fuel shoots out (and you light it on fire all at the same time.) See if you can turn the engine backwards with the rear wheel and in gear.
You do realize that engine is pretty much a paper weight now. Toast! or Bricked! or many other words that mean 'Bye bye motor' :( :doh: :banghead:
You could try and repair it but the easier and better and cheaper choice is usually to just try and find a replacement but make sure you dont buy another engine that also has a bent rod.
I hope others learn from your experience. Overflow tubes are the only real prevention from bending a rod.
That engine had 7,500 miles on it. That is a darn shame.
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many thanks to all who have helped me with my bike.
can you explain how the bike was running when i parked it and the next time i tried to crank it, it would not turn over at all? dont recall any noises during this attempt to crank. also would like to prevent re-occurance with next engine. any advice. what is the common cause of hydrolock in this engine, which i take it is not uncommon? also, how does a tank of bad gas contribute? thanks.
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Floats gets stuck and petcock fails to shut off. Unlike your old Z1 these carbs do not have overflow tubes in the bowls so the gas runs right into the cylinder.You hit the starter and the rod is bent. Having the carbs modded to overflow tubes eliminates that possibility.
Wayne
PS I have a 74 Z
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Floats gets stuck and petcock fails to shut off. Unlike your old Z1 these carbs do not have overflow tubes in the bowls so the gas runs right into the cylinder.You hit the starter and the rod is bent. Having the carbs modded to overflow tubes eliminates that possibility.
Wayne
PS I have a 74 Z
:goodpost:
There is your answer.
I already answered your prevention question before you asked it. Can you not see or read any of my posts?
Overflow tubes are the only real prevention from bending a rod.
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to kzz1king..............thanks for the explanation.
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sounds like the carbs were designed by an idiot.
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I believe it was a regulatory thing. EPA didn't want raw gas being possibly dumped, so Ma Kaw sewed up the overflow nipples.
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I believe it was a regulatory thing. EPA didn't want raw gas being possibly dumped, so Ma Kaw sewed up the overflow nipples.
All but spot on... In effort to meet EPA regs the evaporation factor needed to be omitted.... As long as all is working properly no harm no fowl but with age many factors change and sadly many motors suffered for it....
Go easy boys the realization of knowing you likely fubar'ed your own engine is a bitter pill to swallow....
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found engine in flint mi. working on getting it here to n. ga. thanks for all the help. sure i'll need some more. it has modified carbs w drains. maybe this wont happen again. it was a great 2500 miles and i am dying to get back on it.
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At least you have a good winter project. You'll gain a very good understanding of where things are for maintenance later. The hardest (frustrating) thing I encountered is the spring-loaded push pin that keeps the driveshaft attached. That thing can be a little tricky. Do some reading on it. Also, don't just bolt the engine back in, check to see if it needs shimming.
Drain all of the fluids from the old engine. You may even want to flush the coolant with water so you won't have anti-freeze everywhere.
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sounds like the carbs were designed by an idiot.
Get with the times old man... you are what? 65?
Vacume actuated petcocks have been on bikes since mikuni's became obsolete, late 70's... the vac actuation was the answer to fuel delivery upon demand, with the CV carbs proliferation... we got fuel injection today, callin azz on the design of a 30 year old design is pretty rediculous. It was driven by the technology of the times... my 78'KZ1000Ltd has mic,s and drains, and metal float needles.... it works. So do my 88' CV carbs, work that is, and they have rubber tipped needles... and my C14 has injectors.... and they work...
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many thanks to all who have helped me with my bike.
can you explain how the bike was running when i parked it and the next time i tried to crank it, it would not turn over at all? dont recall any noises during this attempt to crank. also would like to prevent re-occurance with next engine. any advice. what is the common cause of hydrolock in this engine, which i take it is not uncommon? also, how does a tank of bad gas contribute? thanks.
and the real irony to me is that I did a you tube video on this very event, fully explained, props, the whole works just to help STOP connies from being destroyed by hydrolocks. I've done my best to get the info out there; it's a sad event to kill a connie engine over something so easily prevented. Steve
Concours ZG1000 hydrolock rod test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W6k3pTdAXw#)
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thanks for help. #4 has bent rod. no fuel in cylinders, or water. doesnt explain engine not turning does it?
th explanation is in the hydrolock events that occured for a couple days before the final event. The rod was bent on the first event , then bent again on the subsequent event til it can't resist bending while just running / starting. Finally it's touching the cylinder wall, and the engine is locked up. This is exactly what had happened to the first bike I had to change a rod in. Steve
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Just to clarify and ensure a correct diagnoses..... How did you do the bent rod test without turning the engine over?
I know it can be done but.......How did you do it?
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Just to clarify and ensure a correct diagnoses..... How did you do the bent rod test without turning the engine over?
I know it can be done but.......How did you do it?
Unless it stopped with a piston at tdc they all would be partially up/down and you can measure them where they are at. There are only two different sets of measurements if there are no bent rods.
Take a peak at SISF video.
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removed plugs. inserted long screwdriver w small tight rubber hose on it to mark measurements. compared 1 to 4 and 2 to 3, top of piston to top of valve cover. #4 shorter than #1 by 3/16. #4 rod bent. explained under THE BIKE-C10 TECHNICAL QUESTIONS. HOW TO CHECK FOR BENT RODS. also post on p.3 by steve shows utube video of procedure.
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So sorry to hear that you bent a rod.
What plans do you have? Search for a used engine?
http://tinyurl.com/pb7ale2 (http://tinyurl.com/pb7ale2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcqaTJcsMFg&list=UUKqM1osolIY_lQf_kKy4kBw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcqaTJcsMFg&list=UUKqM1osolIY_lQf_kKy4kBw)
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found engine in flint mi. trying to figure out the getting it part w seller. $400 w carb mods done, 33k mi.
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rrman, I'm less than 100 miles from you, if you need any help with swapping out the engine let me know. I'd be happy to help you.
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What a great offer, that's one of the reasons that make this board great
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Oops. Never mind.
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Good job! ;)
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roundhound, thanks for the offer. found shane cloer in calhoun at newly opened SIX4 MOTOWORKS who is doing the whole job including pulling engine. a good friend, a new freind, told me about shane, who taught auto mechanics a gordon high for several years. friend said ford dealer calls shane on occasion for help. saw video of golf cart shane put a 350 chevy in running across the parking lot. couldnt even see engine in cart. he's had it a few days. cant wait to get back riding. just saw your post.