Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Stephen.G.Fiddes on December 04, 2013, 09:36:32 AM
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Hoping to get a sticky out of this post. I have seen a lot of threads asking a lot of questions about the installation of the MC Enterprises Canyon cages. I thought I would share my experience, and also sum-up a lot of the information I've seen in other threads to try to make it a little more clear and concise all in one place. I also like to help people learn how to figure things out for themselves because a lot of times problems have a simple answer, and I firmly believe the better educated people are about how things work, and reasons behind why things are the way they are, the better experience in this world for everyone.
This is for a 2010+ (Gen 2) Concours 14.
As always, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR BROKEN/ DAMGED PARTS IF THEY BREAK, OR IF YOU USE LESS THAN TOP-QUALITY TOOLS! This is just a guideline to share my experience, which was fairly problem free.
Because the engine is a stressed part of the frame, and the center stand is attached to the engine, it's best to put the bike up on the center stand before you start. This will help alleviate as much stress as possible on the motor mount points, and make your life much easier.
The first issue I would like to address is the rear (Extra long) motor mount bolt. I've seen a lot of posts in my searching asking about alignment, thread usage, etc. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of this, so I will try to explain as best possible.
When you remove the hollow factory long bolt at the back of the engine (by removing the 17mm socket nut on the left side just below the tire/ load data sticker see in instructions) you'll notice that at the opposite end (right side of the bike now...) there is a place for an allen wrench. DO NOT TURN THIS (Unless you are dropping the engine etc) That allen head turns the entire motor mount bolt (Cause it's all one piece). As you remove the factory bolt, you'll notice a hex portion just below the bolt-head. This hex-portion goes into a piece that holds the motor and the frame tightly together to factory spec. If you were to turn the rear motor mount bolt, you would change the tension/ space between the motor and the frame. With the motor being a stressed part of the frame on this bike, any space in there can lead to frame flex, and crash. Being too tight and you'll start breaking expensive parts that your wife will have a canary about paying for. This is why you don't want to turn the rear bolt. rather, just slide it out.
Now looking at the bolt that MCE included in the kit, you'll notice that it too has a hex portion part-way down the bolt shaft, at the head end (yeah yeah get your 13 year old minds out of the gutter....). Just like the factory bolt, this serves the same purpose. That hex portion needs to be lined up so it properly slides into the hex part of the motor mount so the bolt properly protrudes the other end. If you need to do so, put it through (Right to left) without the crash cages and look to see how everything lines up. It's pretty simple once you see it yourself.
After you have followed the rest of the instructions, and are ready to put the nut on the left side, there's a few things to note. First make sure that the bolt is indeed protruding at least 5/8 inch (Like the instructions say). Then the sleeve that fits over the bolt needs to be installed. Look at both ends. You'll notice one is completely flat, and the other is machined about 1/2 inch deep. The machined part goes towards the outside. This is so that the special nut can grip the threads deep inside the sleeve. Because of how the nut is designed, (From my understanding from research, MCE PLEASE Correct me if I'm wrong) it does not need to have all of the threads contacting the bolt threads. Mine has about 1/4 inch of threads unused. (Note, you may have to put slight pressure on the right side cage to make sure it's fully seated against the frame, and the bolt properly pushed through as well. May be beneficial to have a buddy help you do this, then bring you a beer afterwards, although the actual help is not absolutely necessary.)
Now onto the front motor mounts. I've seen a whole slew of bad things said about these. With proper care and tools, they're not a problem.
First off, skip harbor freight, home depot, sears, etc. Buy snap-on. (Or equivilant) Period. (Craftsman is not snap-on quality. It's made in china, same as harbor freight) Anything else and you risk breaking it. Also, don't use a ball-head hex tool. That can snap off inside the bolt-head and cause you even more headache. For a normal home project, made in china I would say is fine, but there's a lot at stake here, and potentially over $1,000 in damage. You can afford a $15 socket for this (or however much they cost, My father in law was a machinist, so he had a set or 4 of top-quality tools for me to use).
The tool that's most important to be high quality is the allen socket. Make sure it's a good solid fit. It will still twist a tiny bit inside the bolt while removing, but the effect will be less. Impact grade is best. Pair this up with a 1/2" drive breaker bar, and a 1/2" drive 6-8" extension and you should be set.
A lot of people have mentioned using heat to loosen the Kawasaki lock-tite when removing the front bolts. I advise against using a torch or heat gun as these are not easily controlled as to where the heat goes (it can go more places than you actually want it to go.) Instead, you can warm the engine up to operating temp (optional), and use a sacrificial screwdriver tip heated up red hot, and touch the bolt head. A soldering iron also works for this. It may take a while if you don't have the engine nice and warm first. (Don't burn yourself, it hurts...)
FOR (Insert phrase of choice here) SAKE! DO NOT FORGET THE BASIC RULE OF RIGHTY-TIGHTY LEFTY-LOOSEY THAT YOU LEARNED AS A PRESCHOOLER!!! If you forget this, you WILL be breaking important things in really expensive parts, and your wife won't like the bill.
Use a nice long cheater on your breaker bar (I used a 4' piece of square tubing) and gently apply even pressure from the mid-end of your cheater. DO NOT impact or jolt it (IE: Hammer, air gun, etc). This will encourage breaking important stuff in expensive parts (IE: Bolt in motor mount). It may let out a 'pop' as the lock-tite breaks free. After that you can just use the breaker bar by itself. It will feel like your damaging something initially. (It may help to have a friend watching the bolt/ hex socket to make sure you're not doing too much damage to the bolt, although some twisting in the bolt head will occur. Hard metal tool, vs less hard metal bolt head, LOTS of torque, something's gotta give.)
As you get closer to getting the bolt out (As it gets easier; the threads still need to be catching tho. If they're not, you risk damaging expensive parts.), turn it back to the right a bit (This time with a slight jolt) to free the hex-head from the socket-cap bolt, then continue to remove the bolt.
After the bolt is removed, take a can of air (Or air compressor if you own one like me) and blow the loose thread-locker out. Clean off the bolt threads too. Your best option next is to use a Tap and tap-handle, but if you don't have one, I will give an alternative.
VERY CAREFULLY Run a long tap (Cannot verify the thread pitch at this time) through the motor mount. You want to be extra sure that you DO NOT SEE ANY METAL SHAVINGS. If you do, stop, back up, and even more carefully start over. You risk messing the threads up in your really expensive parts and having to explain that to your wife.
If you don't feel like spending money on a tap and die set, (Or if you're too lazy to go to the shed to get one of the 5 sets you own like me) you can clean off the factory bolt and VERY CAREFULLY thread it partially back in and out, each time blowing the loose thread locker out with compressed air. that should get it clean enough.
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: IF YOU ENCOUNTER ANY HARD RESISTANCE (a little is normal due to the thread locker) DO NOT! DO NOT! DO NOT! FORCE IT!!!! Don't force anything on this step. If you do, the hard metal bolt can possibly dig into the soft metal threads on the motor mount and destroy the threads, causing thousands of dollars in damage for you to explain to your wife. The best way to install these (or at least get them started) is by hand (What I did is use a ratchet extension as a screwdriver to help get past the fairing, I did not remove the plastic. too lazy when I was working in the cold.) Unless you're a big green guy that has some serious anger management issues, you're not going to cross-thread the bolt and damage the threads.
After you have everything assembled, it's a good idea to go through and apply thread-locker accordingly, and frequently check the bolts for tightness to make sure nothing comes loose when it's not supposed to (Like the MCE instructions say to...)
I think I covered everything that I've seen brought up, or that I think could pose an issue for people. Feel free to mention anything else or ask any other questions and I will try to update this post (or maybe a mod can after the edit button goes away for me?) I really hope this helps. Other than that, the instructions are very straight forward, clear, and easy to understand so good job MCE!
Also a side note: I love my wife with everything I've got. For some reason, she just doesn't like paying lots of money for a stupid mistake... :o
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I have been thinking about getting the Canyon Cages and have been reading the different post about the install. It sounds like that front motor mount bolt is fastened with red Locktight, if that is the case then why isn't everyone simply putting a small torch to the bolt to loosen up the Locktight? I have read that some people do it but apparently like you not everyone is. If you did heat it you wouldn't need the Snap On tool or the monster breaker bar and would surely lessen any chance of breaking parts. I just think that this should be an absolute must use for this installation as even Locktight says must use heat to take apart.
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The reason I didn't add the "Heat" to it is because I am not a huge fan of having an open flame of a propane or mapp-gas torch near all the heat-sensative stuff in that confined space. While yes, Heat does help loosen the lock-tite, the amount of heat put out by a torch could easily melt other components under (IE, all the rubber hoses in the vicinity, esp on the right side)
I suppose one could take a sacrificial screwdriver (or other similar piece of metal) and heat it up red hot and touch it to the bolt to heat it up that way. It would take longer to heat it up but less risk of melting other components.
EDIT: Not to mention most people do not have a hose for their torches, if they have one. Most just have the $8 twist the knob, use an ignition source, and fire comes out the end of the stick at the top of the propane/ mapp canister style torch.
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Hoping to get a sticky out of this post. I have seen a lot of threads asking a lot of questions about the installation of the MC Enterprises Canyon cages
Nice write up.
+1 on the using good quality tools, especially, the allen socket to prevent stripping the bolt heads. I was able to get the engine mount bolts out fairly easily using a 16 inch, 1/2 inch drive breaker bar. I must be one of the lucky ones. To clean out the old Kawi thread locker I used a brass bore brush from a gun cleaning kit. I am less likely to damage the threads that way. Finally, install everything by hand. It is very difficult to cross thread the engine bolts by hand.
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Instead of a torch you can hold a soldering iron against the hex bolt head for a bit & that will help soften up the lock-tite, Safer than trying to get in there with an open flame!!!! :thumbs:
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Wow!
Very excellent write up. As I read it, I shuddered at all the things that could have gone wrong back when I did my install. I used Craftsman and/or Harbor Freight, with a 2 foot cheater bar. Used no heat, no air hose, no taps, no dies...nothing. Took me probably 20 minutes to install fronts and the rears, all by myself. And that's counting having to do it twice because I forgot the Loctite the first time.
I did have the foresight/luck to have the bike on the center stand first, thereby avoiding any possible mis-alignment that might have been cause by side-stand leaning. You might want to include that in your write up. It's probably wise to keep the frame...the entire bike...as free from leans and twists as possible while doing the install.
Sometimes it IS better to be lucky than good! At least in my case.
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Instead of a torch you can hold a soldering iron against the hex bolt head for a bit & that will help soften up the lock-tite, Safer than trying to get in there with an open flame!!!! :thumbs:
:doh: why didn't I think of that.....
Wow!
Very excellent write up. As I read it, I shuddered at all the things that could have gone wrong back when I did my install. I used Craftsman and/or Harbor Freight, with a 2 foot cheater bar. Used no heat, no air hose, no taps, no dies...nothing. Took me probably 20 minutes to install fronts and the rears, all by myself. And that's counting having to do it twice because I forgot the Loctite the first time.
I did have the foresight/luck to have the bike on the center stand first, thereby avoiding any possible mis-alignment that might have been cause by side-stand leaning. You might want to include that in your write up. It's probably wise to keep the frame...the entire bike...as free from leans and twists as possible while doing the install.
Sometimes it IS better to be lucky than good! At least in my case.
Thank you! Totally forgot about that common mistake too. I tried to get everything but no one can be perfect haha. I'll throw that up.
You got lucky lol (Or you're just that good). I've seen reports of people breaking off allen heads, stripping the bolts, stripping the threads at the motor mount, etc. Doesn't sound like my idea of a good time!
My rears only took me about 5 minutes per side. The fronts took me quite a bit longer.
Thanks for all the refinement ideas guys! I'm glad that we have the opportunity to get this all in one place for people to not have to search around a whole lot like I did to find the answers. Hopefully we can get a couple more people in here with their ideas as well (MCE Rick?!)
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Sorry...mine's a 2010.
Then that is interesting. I have wondered if the /\/\ega application of threadlock was just limited to certain years or production runs. Haven't spotted a pattern yet except it is apparently not an issue with gen1 ( 2008-2009).
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Thanks for the write-up! I always greatly appreciate when people give well-articulated notes on our products.
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Although Ryan says it's not necessary to take off the middle fairing(s), I personally recommend that they come off when you're installing it for the first time. To mount the fairing off and on while keeping the cages on there's a photo that Ryan showed me, that shows where to use a hacksaw to cut off about an inch of plastic near the vents.
Only one cut is needed for the 2010 fairing (not two as the picture would indicate). It was a lot of physical effort on my end just to crank off those engine bolts. I used a hex nut socket, with a 8" extender, with a 18" long socket wrench with a swivel head.
Rather then fear scratching the fairings, removing them made a lot of sense. Plus the cut on the fairings makes it easier to refill the coolant reservoir and change out the air filter.
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8) installed the Canyon Cages front, with pegs, and rears in a 1.5hrs (rears took 20min both sides). Heat a wire barrel brush, red and blue lock tight were needed as well. Just a little tedious installing the braces inside the fins other than that all went well.
Having the pegs allowed for up to 10 hrs. in the saddle on a recent trip to the Rockies.
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AlbertaDoug, just got my Canyon Cages yesterday and started reading the threads on this forum and the other as well. Yea, I know I should have done that first. I have to say that after reading everything I'm torn about starting this project. Seems like some, like you, have a pretty easy time with the install but for some it's been a cluster. I have just about everything in my arsenal to tackle the job but...The last thing I want to do is break a motor mount or F something up really bad. I really like the way the cages look on the bike and also look forward to the confidence they will give me once they are on. Are most folks having a pretty easy time with this or should I give up and send them back before I mess my pride and joy up? I have a second gen 2010 if that makes any difference. I always did all my own work on my old C10 but the C14 is a whole new ball game.
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With the info from this thread I was able to find the confidence to do the install. I used a small torch to focus(tucked a small piece of sheet metal in to protect pieces from the heat)the heat on the engine mount bolts( after I broke a Allen socket). The 30 cal wire brush cleaned the remaining thread lock out of the threads to allow for easier reinstall of motor mount bolts. Patience is the key to installing the braces.
I too was a little hesitant but couldn't justify $110.00/hr shop rate.
The first post of this tread from Stephan helped.
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AlbertaDog, thanks for the reply. I walked through the steps visually yesterday and it all looks pretty simple. I'm going to press on after I gather a few things for the job.
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How many mounting points are on one side of the bike for the canyon cages on a 2010 or post bike.
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How many mounting points are on one side of the bike for the canyon cages on a 2010 or post bike.
2... One at the engine mount, and one back by the swingarm pivot.
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2... One at the engine mount, and one back by the swingarm pivot.
? Maybe I misread his question... but I believe there are three, not two. Two at engine mount points and one at the swingwarm pivot.
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? Maybe I misread his question... but I believe there are three, not two. Two at engine mount points and one at the swingwarm pivot.
There's only 2 mounts on each side, rear upper engine mount and front upper engine mount. The canyon cage has a second brace up front but it just connects back to itself, to the top part of the cage.
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There's only 2 mounts on each side, rear upper engine mount and front upper engine mount. The canyon cage has a second brace up front but it just connects back to itself, to the top part of the cage.
OK, I see what you mean. Technically yes, there are only two points... although it looks like three and uses three bolts on each side.
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Well I keep worrying that it wouldnt work on the left side with my cruise control being like this:
(http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/images/Entire%20left%20side.jpg)
And I cant find pictures on line of the install showing this area.
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Well I keep worrying that it wouldnt work on the left side with my cruise control being like this:
And I cant find pictures on line of the install showing this area.
Outstanding- that is one fine looking C-14. ;)
Canyon Cages cannot be installed on a C-14 that has a Rostra installed on the left side, as shown in that photo. So for any of us that do have a Rostra actuator installed there, we are outta' luck for a Canyon Cage install.
My plan is to move the actuator to the rear (Easy Boys!) of the bike on the left side so the Canyon Cages can be installed. Most likely just under the left saddlebag; once the yellow connector retainer is painted black I think the whole actuator will <more or less> disappear on the bike. Of course that assumes I do not end up with a ZX exhaust system on the bike....
Brian
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I read you saying you wanted to place it back there in other threads. I already painted the yellow thing black, it blends right in inside the fairing now.
Bummer - I wanted to put on the cages too. :(
Maybe if your successful and it doesn't show so much and you post pics. . . ;)
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Does it matter if it's a gen 1 or gen 2 bike? I was just about to install the rostra and then the canyon cages...
Outstanding- that is one fine looking C-14. ;)
Canyon Cages cannot be installed on a C-14 that has a Rostra installed on the left side, as shown in that photo. So for any of us that do have a Rostra actuator installed there, we are outta' luck for a Canyon Cage install.
My plan is to move the actuator to the rear (Easy Boys!) of the bike on the left side so the Canyon Cages can be installed. Most likely just under the left saddlebag; once the yellow connector retainer is painted black I think the whole actuator will <more or less> disappear on the bike. Of course that assumes I do not end up with a ZX exhaust system on the bike....
Brian
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I believe the picture shown is a Gen 1 and mine is a Gen 2, they are both pretty much the same where that comes in.
But hey, if you remove the fairing and install the cages and the Rostra to ensure fit, it could happen ;)
Try it and take pics for everyone's knowledge.
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I do not believe so. The Rostra is just in the way of the Canyon Cages. Or vice- versa depending on which one you installed first :-)
This bike really is tight (Easy Boys!) for space. At first it seems OK but then when you start to farkle it up, suddenly there just is not much room for the stuff you thought was small in the first place. And it ends up with having to make choices- my air horn and alarm system is where some people put the Rostra actuator (under the top / right fairing cover). So putting the Rostra there is just not an option as I cannot find enough space to mount the aux. horn and alarm system anywhere else. There is almost zero room under the saddle on this bike, and not too much under the fairings. For me, the Canyon Cages were the last added and there just was not enough room given the previous, and well- liked farkles (HIDs, PC III, Stebel horn, alarm system, comm. system and various wiring additions (heated clothes, USB power supply, etc,. etc.))
Of all the farkles mentioned though, the Rostra can be mounted (Boys!) externally on the bike so that may be where mine ends up.
Brian
Does it matter if it's a gen 1 or gen 2 bike? I was just about to install the rostra and then the canyon cages...
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On Gen-2 bikes the Rostra fits nicely under the top right faring and the cable runs across the front of the tank and loops perfectly down the left side and up to the throttle. Leaves plenty of room for the canyon cages.
In another thread I told someone that the canyon cages and the rostra do not interfere. Obviously I was wrong if the rostra is mounted on the left side.
In any case I have a Gen-2 bike with both a Rostra and Canyon Cages and all is good.
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Yep, that will work just as well on a Gen.1 bike too. But as I said, that area under the top / right fairing is already full of air horn and alarm system so I cannot move my Rostra there.
Brian
On Gen-2 bikes the Rostra fits nicely under the top right faring and the cable runs across the front of the tank and loops perfectly down the left side and up to the throttle. Leaves plenty of room for the canyon cages.
In another thread I told someone that the canyon cages and the rostra do not interfere. Obviously I was wrong if the rostra is mounted on the left side.
In any case I have a Gen-2 bike with both a Rostra and Canyon Cages and all is good.
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I have a Gen 2 with a vent tank? from the fuel system mounted on the right side under the fairing. Maybe I could remove that and reposition there. Thank you.
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Here's what it looks like in there.
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/sreinschmidt/2011-06-16_11-25-54_352.jpg)
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/sreinschmidt/2011-06-16_11-26-07_804.jpg)
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That is not a result of a Gen. 1 or Gen. 2 bike, it is because you have a California model (rather than the 49 state model). Some people have removed the charcoal filter but I cannot speak intelligently about it as I have a 49 state bike.... so someone else will hopefully chime in here as to what to remove / what to plug.
Brian
I have a Gen 2 with a vent tank? from the fuel system mounted on the right side under the fairing. Maybe I could remove that and reposition there. Thank you.
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If my memory serves me correctly, there is a generous space behind the battery compartment, is there a reason the Rostra can't be installed there?
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Well, I would not say 'cannot' but it is inside the frame and routing the wires and throttle cable out of there would be tough. And that space is only available on Gen. 1 models without ABS- that is where the ABS pump goes on all model C-14 that have it, which is all Gen. 2 bikes.
Also, it would be quite difficult to mount the Rostra (Easy Boys!) inside that compartment.
Brian
If my memory serves me correctly, there is a generous space behind the battery compartment, is there a reason the Rostra can't be installed there?
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Well, I would not say 'cannot' but it is inside the frame and routing the wires and throttle cable out of there would be tough. And that space is only available on Gen. 1 models without ABS- that is where the ABS pump goes on all model C-14 that have it, which is all Gen. 2 bikes.
Well, technically, there are some 2010 (which is gen2) bikes without ABS, since it didn't come standard until 2011. But certainly true for all the 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014's, and probably MOST of the 2010's.
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Well, I would not say 'cannot' but it is inside the frame and routing the wires and throttle cable out of there would be tough. And that space is only available on Gen. 1 models without ABS- that is where the ABS pump goes on all model C-14 that have it, which is all Gen. 2 bikes. Also, it would be quite difficult to mount the Rostra (Easy Boys!) inside that compartment. Brian
I should have waited until this was posted to remove the tank last night and see if there was room. I believe about six inches back there may be enough room but as you say, wow very difficult place to work and getting wires back there . . .
I forgot to properly click down my red clip on the fuel line and didn't even think about it until it was aaaalllllll buttoned up and wiped down. Maybe after my workout tonight I can remove everything and do the job right the second time :)
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I have a Gen 2 with a vent tank? from the fuel system mounted on the right side under the fairing. Maybe I could remove that and reposition there. Thank you.
That's what I did. I removed the vapor canister then plugged the green line and filtered the Blue line. Mounted the Rostra actuator and the Stebel compressor* in that area. Engine runs fine, no change in performance nor any obvious change in mpg.
*Stebel separated into compressor and horn connected by a hose. Horn is down in fairing with an exit hole in front of the radiator.
(http://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8rpGcN4/0/L/i-8rpGcN4-L.jpg) (http://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8rpGcN4/0/O/i-8rpGcN4-O.jpg)
(http://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-XtrHGmd/0/X3/i-XtrHGmd-X3.jpg) (http://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-XtrHGmd/0/O/i-XtrHGmd-O.jpg)
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I got my canyon cages installed yesterday. No problems at all. The right side motor mount bolt was a little tight but once it broke loose with the break over bar it came right out. The threads were nice and clean. The left side was real easy to get out. I did support the engine before I started the job but honestly I don't think it was needed. Thanks for all the tips and advice. Reading this thread helped me a lot.
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I got my canyon cages installed yesterday. No problems at all. The right side motor mount bolt was a little tight but once it broke loose with the break over bar it came right out. The threads were nice and clean. The left side was real easy to get out. I did support the engine before I started the job but honestly I don't think it was needed. Thanks for all the tips and advice. Reading this thread helped me a lot.
Glad it helped!
I wonder if supporting the engine made the bolts easier to remove? Just a thought. Meh, people have been doing it without supporting the engine for a long time, BUT if it helps, why not?
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I wonder if supporting the engine made the bolts easier to remove? Just a thought. Meh, people have been doing it without supporting the engine for a long time, BUT if it helps, why not?
I didn't support the engine doing mine- it didn't seem to need it. Although it was a ***** to remove those bolts- but I am quite sure that was due to over-application of thread lock (seems common on 2011+ models). Anyway, probably enough other engine mounts to keep it in place (not sure though, I didn't pour through the factory manual to see).
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I didn't support the engine doing mine- it didn't seem to need it. Although it was a ***** to remove those bolts- but I am quite sure that was due to over-application of thread lock (seems common on 2011+ models). Anyway, probably enough other engine mounts to keep it in place (not sure though, I didn't pour through the factory manual to see).
Yeah the amount of thread locker on there was insane...
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Very good writeup by the OP.
Has anyone tried this on a 2014-2015 yet ?
I have a set of cages on the way for my 2015 C14 and reading this makes me nervous as hell. Almost to the point of not even attempting it.
One question, what does this line mean:
As you get closer to getting the bolt out (As it gets easier; the threads still need to be catching tho. If they're not, you risk damaging expensive parts.), turn it back to the right a bit (This time with a slight jolt) to free the hex-head from the socket-cap bolt, then continue to remove the bolt.
Catching what ?
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Very good writeup by the OP.
Has anyone tried this on a 2014-2015 yet ?
I have a set of cages on the way for my 2015 C14 and reading this makes me nervous as hell. Almost to the point of not even attempting it.
One question, what does this line mean:
Catching what ?
Welcome to the forum JTX! I had no problem on my 2010. I wouldn't think there is any difference between Gen-2 bikes 2010-2015. On mine the engine bolts had a lot of what looked like orange thread locker and they were very tight. After I got the bolts out, I carefully cleaned the threads and when I put them back in I used blue, non-permanent, Loc-Tite. Just make sure you don't cross thread them. I've had the cages off and back on several times since then and no problems.
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Welcome to the forum JTX! I had no problem on my 2010. I wouldn't think there is any difference between Gen-2 bikes 2010-2015. On mine the engine bolts had a lot of what looked like orange thread locker and they were very tight. After I got the bolts out, I carefully cleaned the threads and when I put them back in I used blue, non-permanent, Loc-Tite. Just make sure you don't cross thread them. I've had the cages off and back on several times since then and no problems.
Thanks for the welcome!
What I'm concerned about is the removal process more than anything. I've pretty much assumed I will need to clean the threads on both the mount holes and the bolts before inserting the new bolt. Because there should really be no resistance when you re install the bolts until the bolt begins to tighten at the end.
It appears that not everyone use heat, and Im not sure why because we know theres a thread locker on it.
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Welcome to the forum JTX! I had no problem on my 2010. I wouldn't think there is any difference between Gen-2 bikes 2010-2015. On mine the engine bolts had a lot of what looked like orange thread locker and they were very tight. After I got the bolts out, I carefully cleaned the threads and when I put them back in I used blue, non-permanent, Loc-Tite. Just make sure you don't cross thread them. I've had the cages off and back on several times since then and no problems.
I had the same type of install on my 2013. The bolts had Orange thread locker on then. This color leads me to believe that it is Kawasaki's own brand of thread locker, and is different from the Permatex Red Loctite that many are referring to. When taking the engine mount bolt out, I used a quality hex, and a 3/8'' breaker bar. No problems what so ever. As mentioned above, I then cleaned the bolt threads, and in addition, I also re-tapped the engine to make sure there was nothing fouling the threads. Blue loctite was applied when reassembled.
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I had the same type of install on my 2013. The bolts had Orange thread locker on then. This color leads me to believe that it is Kawasaki's own brand of thread locker, and is different from the Permatex Red Loctite that many are referring to. When taking the engine mount bolt out, I used a quality hex, and a 3/8'' breaker bar. No problems what so ever. As mentioned above, I then cleaned the bolt threads, and in addition, I also re-tapped the engine to make sure there was nothing fouling the threads. Blue loctite was applied when reassembled.
+1 I used a Craftsman 3/8" drive hex socket, made sure it was fully seated and had no problem at all.
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No heat ? I think the key is to not force it if it is real tight... apply more heat from what I am reading.
+1 I used a Craftsman 3/8" drive hex socket, made sure it was fully seated and had no problem at all.
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No heat ? I think the key is to not force it if it is real tight... apply more heat from what I am reading.
No I didn't apply any heat. I'm not sure how you would. These bolts are into the engine, I would be very reluctant to use a torch in there.
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No I didn't apply any heat. I'm not sure how you would. These bolts are into the engine, I would be very reluctant to use a torch in there.
Wow that just goes against everything I know about mechanics, and thread locking compound............
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No I didn't apply any heat. I'm not sure how you would. These bolts are into the engine, I would be very reluctant to use a torch in there.
Could you leave the socket on to contain and direct the heat from a pencil tip torch?
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It never even occurred to me to use heat. I first did it with the MC bathroom bars. I had no idea there could potentially be a problem. I just used my Craftsman sockets (I know not a Snap-On but I've never broken one in several decades of use) and a cheater bar. Applied torque and they just came out. It wasn't until I had them out that I even knew Kawi used a locking compound. I'm guessing whatever compound they use it is designed to allow the bolt to be removed for servicing. Just a matter of torque. Have people been breaking off bolts?
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No heat ? I think the key is to not force it if it is real tight... apply more heat from what I am reading.
I didn't use any heat. Just what others said. Use a quality tool, long breaker bar, make sure things are seated well, and go for it. It was not easy, but they all came off intact.
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It never even occurred to me to use heat. I first did it with the MC bathroom bars. I had no idea there could potentially be a problem. I just used my Craftsman sockets (I know not a Snap-On but I've never broken one in several decades of use) and a cheater bar. Applied torque and they just came out. It wasn't until I had them out that I even knew Kawi used a locking compound. I'm guessing whatever compound they use it is designed to allow the bolt to be removed for servicing. Just a matter of torque. Have people been breaking off bolts?
On another forum, I'm seeing reports of broken bolts and rounded out/stripped hex heads, yes. So I found your guys forum, and the great writeup at the top of the thread, so I posed the question about heating.
I really really really really don't want a broken bolt in the engine mount.
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On another forum, I'm seeing reports of broken bolts and rounded out/stripped hex heads, yes. So I found your guys forum, and the great writeup at the top of the thread, so I posed the question about heating.
I really really really really don't want a broken bolt in the engine mount.
I hear that! Because that would really really really really suck! Don't know what to tell you. Rounded head or stripped hex heads are remedied by good tools and making sure the socket or hex is fully seated. But broken bolt in the engine is another mater. Good luck and let us know how it turned out.
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Well, I have pretty good craftsman tools here, not junk anyway. I put a good hex socket on my 3 foot bar, and tried to break them loose with moderate force and they didn't budge.
These bolts are secured with a threadlock compound.
Damaging things is not worth the bars. So I might just skip it unless my local dealer will do it without charging me for 3 or 4 hours of labor at their 80$+ rate.
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Well, I have pretty good craftsman tools here, not junk anyway. I put a good hex socket on my 3 foot bar, and tried to break them loose with moderate force and they didn't budge.
These bolts are secured with a threadlock compound.
Damaging things is not worth the bars. So I might just skip it unless my local dealer will do it without charging me for 3 or 4 hours of labor at their 80$+ rate.
Kawasaki put WAY too much threadlock (or way too strong, or both) on the bolts. EVERYONE complains they are way too difficult to remove. All I can tell you is that the forum has had dozens and dozens and dozens of people install the fallover protection and I don't recall ever reading a single post about the bolts actually breaking.
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Kawasaki put WAY too much threadlock (or way too strong, or both) on the bolts. EVERYONE complains they are way too difficult to remove. All I can tell you is that the forum has had dozens and dozens and dozens of people install the fallover protection and I don't recall ever reading a single post about the bolts actually breaking.
It's why I'm going to try to heat it before I give up.
I might also go get a snapon hex bit, extension, and breaker bar. I bet it wont flex like my craftsman does =D
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It's why I'm going to try to heat it before I give up.
I might also go get a snapon hex bit, extension, and breaker bar. I bet it wont flex like my craftsman does =D
So please clear this up for me. You're worried about breaking a bolt off while loosening it, so your options are to try once more or have no protection?
I hate to say this, and I'll never tell the story, but I have first hand experience on how well they Canyon cages protect the bike.
Obviously I am not an experienced mechanic, but I have been around the block once or twice. And I can say that a bolt breaking on removal is not as common as on installation. I'm sure it is possible, but I would assume that it would be on a lesser grade of a bolt. Being an engine mounting bolt, I would say that it is a hardened bolt, designed for this stress that it will endure and that it isn't your standard butter bolt from the local hardware store.
When I put my cages on, by myself, I didn't measure the torque of its tightness. I had read the same stuff on these forums about the nightmare installs, and knew that I needed to be smarter than the object I was working with. With using a decent quality tool(s) I put all my effort into making the bolt turn the way it should. Meaning that I kept proper alignment on everything, while I was putting everything I had into moving that breaker bar in the intended motion. And with a "snap", the bolt was turning.
I cleaned the threads on both surfaces and reapplied blue loctite on instalation.
A day later, I unwillingly tested the usefulness of the CC. So to answer my own question from my opening of this post, I would definitely go with the try again option.
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I contacted my local dealer today where i purchased the C14 and they gave me a very reasonable rate to install them ( under 200$ ) , so I'm going to let them them do it.
I just don't have the beefy tools needed to do it and they have the means to fix anything that might go wrong.
The replies in the thread are appreciated.
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I read on other forum the post on canyon cages nightmare. Well I did not read it well enough and bought a set for my 09. Yes it was a little hassle installing them. The front bolt is a major pain. Anyway my question is when installing the front bolt, instead of going through the melting of the lock tight again what would be wrong with using anti seize and a lock washer. I am leaning that way.
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Good morning, Jerry. I haven't installed the cages but from what I've read here and on the cog site the problem was with the type and quantity of thread locker that the factory used. I think that once the bolts are clean and the threads have been chased and cleaned you should be able to run the bolt in by hand. Use blue thread locker and retorque as required.
Gary
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What G said...
I think that it's been the folks with the inferior Gen2 bikes who have had all the issues with the thread lock stuff. I had zero issues with the install of the CCs on my '08. Besides, if you make a cut in the fairings you will not have to remove any CCs bolts in order remove the fairings when work is required.
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Somewhere in that nightmare thread, I think someone said even with the cut in fairing you still have to pull cages to run the valves?? I have no idea, never got enough miles to run valves. Sold my 08 at 16,000 and the new one has 15,000 on it. But I will go with the blue lock tight.
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Or you could have left them on the shelf in the garage so you didn't have to worry about it. :)
That is great advise. Where were you before I started pulling plastic? LOL
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I just want to get this thing buttoned up. Made several changes to it since Jan 1st. Only have a couple hundred miles on it and too many hours of work. I want to ride this thing.
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Just did a CC install on a 2012 yesterday. Took about 1/2 hour total with 2 of us working it. Had no problems what so ever. Used a 2' breaker bar with Craftsman 3/8 drive hex socket and they came right out. Put the new bolts in with blue loctite. Easy peazy.
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Glad I didn't read any of these threads before I installed mine. Of course none of these existed since I got in on the original group buy. I don't recall having any issues with my install, but then again I have installed tip over bars on many bikes before the Concours. I install the bars and then never tip over. That is my philosophy and I am sticking to it.
I have the Mondo lights and "eham, cough cough", Kuryakyn Highway Pegs mounted on mine.
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I'm going to install my cages tomorrow and I need the torque spec for the front motor mount and rear mount on a 2012 connie,i read the past posts and i got 2 different torque specs.This might help some of the riders wanting to install canyon cages,I did a 200 mile ride today and when I got home I pulled the bike up on to its center stand and got my ratchet out and Hex bit and the front motor mount bolts came right out.so I'm guessing that the heat from the 200 mile ride made the the lock tight soften up.
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Hope this helps
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Or maybe try this instead.
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Or maybe try this instead.
This is the one 44 ft lb for the front motor mount it has the m--10 bolt,thanks for the help and info.