Author Topic: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?  (Read 12276 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2015, 05:11:07 PM »
There are basically two types of motorcycle steering oscillation: high speed and low speed. The low speed type is usually seen around 40- 50 MPH, and is seen as a slow, steady wobble of the handlebars that diminishes with either a speed increase or decrease. Very common on motorcycles and often taken care of with nothing more than damping of the steering or just learning to ignore it. It is not dangerous, will not increase with speed or any input to the vehicle (acceleration, deceleration, turning).

A high- speed oscillation is something entirely different; it is an oscillation that is 'fed' by the dynamics of the motorcycle's movement and will almost always increase with speed. It can and often increases with a shift in load on the bike; this is the classic failure mode: the bike starts to oscillate at high speeds (let's call it 60 MPH and higher) and the rider reacts with a sudden and complete reduction in power (closes the throttle). This in turn puts a weight bias on the front wheel, or moves the center of force on the wheels forward, and often INCREASES the speed and amplitude of these oscillations, sometimes resulting in an uncontrolled 'steering stop to stop' front wheel movement (i.e., a tank slapper) that never has a good outcome.

Motorcycles are carefully designed to avoid high speed oscillations, starting with the geometry of the steering, and ending with aerodynamic testing. Most motorcycles are built in such a way as to make them self- damping and thereby avoiding the dreaded 'tank- slapper'. There are exceptions: a lot of liter sport bikes come with steering dampers for that very specific reason- to damp the high speed oscillations incurred by the aggressive steering geometry and the short wheelbase. Neither of which apply to the C-14 by the way.

Just my own personal opinion but a sport touring motorcycle should be stable to any speed the rider cares to or can reach. If anyone ever suffers a steering oscillation on something like a sport tourer, I would strongly suggest that person find and correct the root cause of such oscillation before riding it at anything above secondary road speeds: maybe 45 MPH or so. It is probably nothing but tire wear and / or balance but again, it should never happen and it should never be tolerated, accepted or ignored.

So to directly answer your question: yes, high- speed wobble can turn into a tank- slapper and I believe that should be avoided.

Brian

Oh so many variables,

i already had the front tire off as i did a rotor replace and checked the front bearings. the steering stem seams fine. Both front and back tire have the cup on the right side. i was not too worried about it but now since i have a trip coming up that will take about a 6 hour ride and burn through some mountain roads, i am wondering if it would be best to just get new tires so i won't have not cornering issues or un-predictability.

what is the worst that wobble can turn into, tank slapper? I have been riding since the 90s so i am no expert but also never experience this before.
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Offline LandRocket

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2015, 05:18:37 PM »
i think it sounds like a tire replacement is in my future. This will allow me to just start over and remove three recommendations.

1: tire pressure to 42
2: redo the front tire install
3: new tires.

it was a high speed wobble ever so lightly that started at 90mph. letting off the throttle removed it. 80 mph feels stable and no issues.

i asked this question already but i want to make sure every one here knows this is a lowered bike using Muzzy's 1inch and a 1inch raise on the forks. Could this also be a agitator?

Offline angelo

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 05:43:17 PM »


i asked this question already but i want to make sure every one here knows this is a lowered bike using Muzzy's 1inch and a 1inch raise on the forks. Could this also be a agitator?

Of course it can.  Start with the tires and go from there.  I am sure there is an appropriate procedure for the lowering link (never did it before).  Wouldn't hurt to triple check measurements on the forks and their raising. 

Let us know how you like the new PR4's and how stable the bike was at 120 mph.

Offline maxtog

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2015, 05:49:38 PM »
i asked this question already but i want to make sure every one here knows this is a lowered bike using Muzzy's 1inch and a 1inch raise on the forks. Could this also be a agitator?

I have Muzzy 1" lowering link rear and 1" lowered front and have never had any high-speed wobbling of any type on the C14, at any speed, over almost 5 years.  Granted, I am no speed-demon.

I should point out that 1" raising the fork tubes is not the "correct" matching amount for lowering the rear by 1".  The forks are angled, so the amount you have to raise them should be MORE.   I computed it with geometry to be 1 1/8".  I doubt it matters THAT much, and I certainly don't think it would contribute to any potential wobbling issue.  Just something I thought I would mention.

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Offline LandRocket

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2015, 06:06:38 PM »
angelo,

i was looking at the metzeler tire as i have them on my Triumph but dam.. after watching the PR4 video on their web site, it looks like it would be a better tire. Of course that is the ideal of it i guess.

So if i changed rotors on that tire, could it have affected its balance? I did not rebalance that tire, i also did not feel any issues in front balance either while riding.

Sorry so many questions, just getting the general census from every one to make an informed decision. Either way i will start with tires first. Some one i know has their personal tire preference but over all it loos like most folks here go for the PR4s or any PRs?

Offline angelo

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2015, 06:13:08 PM »
I apologize, my bad for mentioning a brand name.  But, yes, tires first is the way to go IMO and others, it seems.

Like I said on page one, blah blah blah, I learned my lesson on that.   ;)


Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2015, 08:00:59 PM »
PR4 or PR3 you can't go wrong...
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Offline connie14boy

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2015, 09:22:21 PM »
PR4 or PR3 you can't go wrong...

+1    PR4's are great all around tires.

Offline maxtog

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 10:31:43 PM »
+1    PR4's are great all around tires.

+2 PR4GT!
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline LandRocket

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2015, 06:57:40 AM »
I am sold! PR4's it is.. . I will update every one of my progress including pictures as this progresses. Hopefully we all can learn form this as i feel this is a dangerous situation that needs a solution in the event some one else has this issue.

Offline gPink

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2015, 07:10:49 AM »
Check the manual for the proper axle/ pinch bolt tightening sequence.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2015, 01:09:27 PM »
I could redo the install but what is it i am looking for? the install went smooth and to my knowledge i did not miss anything.

when you do the install, lube everything sparingly, tighten the axle and nut using 2 wrenches, many people say to tighten the pinch bolts on the nut to hold it from rotating, i disagree as it clamps too hard on the tubular section of the nut, pinches it down, and causes galling in the threads, and then, nothing is insuring the axle is truly central between the forks, and may be offset to one side... leave the pinch bolts loose, they get tightened last...and after you fit the calipers on and tighten them, prior to tightening the bottom pinch bolts, spin the tire vigorously, and clamp the front brakes on, repeat this about a dozen times. Then tighten the pinch bolts to spec.

it doesn't take much to offset the rim tire disc assembly to one side but a few thousandthes of an inch, and doing brake thing acts to centralize the assembly moreso than anything. I tap on each end of the axle also with a plastic mallet, then you will see just how much freeplay there really is on that axle.
even tho its tight and under compression, doesn't mean its central.

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Offline Rhino

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2015, 01:50:20 PM »
when you do the install, lube everything sparingly, tighten the axle and nut using 2 wrenches, many people say to tighten the pinch bolts on the nut to hold it from rotating, i disagree as it clamps too hard on the tubular section of the nut, pinches it down, and causes galling in the threads, and then, nothing is insuring the axle is truly central between the forks, and may be offset to one side... leave the pinch bolts loose, they get tightened last...and after you fit the calipers on and tighten them, prior to tightening the bottom pinch bolts, spin the tire vigorously, and clamp the front brakes on, repeat this about a dozen times. Then tighten the pinch bolts to spec.

it doesn't take much to offset the rim tire disc assembly to one side but a few thousandthes of an inch, and doing brake thing acts to centralize the assembly moreso than anything. I tap on each end of the axle also with a plastic mallet, then you will see just how much freeplay there really is on that axle.
even tho its tight and under compression, doesn't mean its central.

I like this idea. I've used a method outlined in the Honda manual for my old VTX which was to bounce the front fork a couple of times by moving forward then hitting the front brakes, then tighten the pinch bolts. But this makes much more sense to me to center relative to the calipers.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2015, 04:52:12 PM »
I got a free ride to Yamaha school by the dealership I was working for as my second job, back in 1974.. because he had nobody that knew anything, being a new dealer, formerly owned a Montessa "store".. and couldn't fix them either..
during the education process (I was there to learn modifications to 2 smoke engines, piston port and rotary( kaw had rotary induction) I also learned a lot...
disc brakes were infants, and developed greatly, but  well before floating discs came out, this was an issue... now, today, with the close tolerance positioning of even the floaters, it goes full circle.. we see this when we see people scrubbing and cleaning the floater buttons.. and that does make differences in brake shudder and efficency.. even tho they float, there are still axial tolereances that create issue, when you mate up multiple parts, it exacerbates the issue..

I been centralizing front wheels for 40 years in this manner, and yet to NOT see improvements doing it.
jmho

I'm old.

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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2015, 05:50:33 PM »
Yeah, and you're ugly too....  ;)

I appreciate you going over the procedure to install a wheel. :goodpost:
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2015, 07:31:06 PM »
Certainly changing the bike's basic geometry can, and usually will, result in different handling characteristics. The lowering links probably are not a problem but the forks may well be the culprit; when you raise the forks (lower the front of the bike), you not only changed the trail distance but also decreased the steering angle as well as shortened the wheelbase of the bike. This is exactly what is done to make motorcycles quicker to steer but also less stable.

Given this information, I would suggest taking out perhaps 1/2 of the front end lowering (dropping the forks 1/2" down in the triple clamps) and very carefully see if the situation improves. The next obvious step would be to bring the front end all the way back to stock height and again carefully test the bike's reaction to higher speeds.

Please bear in mind that if this is the cause of the wobble, when you abruptly close the throttle at speeds high enough to cause that wobble, you are effectively straightening the steering angle even more when the weight transfers forward; this is exactly what exacerbates a wobble into a potential tank slapper so do be careful.

Brian

i think it sounds like a tire replacement is in my future. This will allow me to just start over and remove three recommendations.

1: tire pressure to 42
2: redo the front tire install
3: new tires.

it was a high speed wobble ever so lightly that started at 90mph. letting off the throttle removed it. 80 mph feels stable and no issues.

i asked this question already but i want to make sure every one here knows this is a lowered bike using Muzzy's 1inch and a 1inch raise on the forks. Could this also be a agitator?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline LandRocket

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2015, 07:37:41 PM »
MAN OF BLUES,

I did none of thee above on my install, i know i did the breaks per manual but the tire install was just stick it on there, tight one side to hold the nut in place and then torque the other. It makes perfect sense that there could be a bit of off center on the tire with out following your directions. I am still changing the tires but on the install i will follow your steps  like i am trying to land a plane.

Offline LandRocket

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2015, 07:51:20 PM »
B.D.F.,

i will consider lowering to 1/2 but i want to change the tires anyways and redo my install so i think i will just do that first. As for the my response to the event, it was not a scary situation but it made me pay attention. I felt it in the steering and then in the rear, happened twice in about a two min period, after that i did not go above 80.  Both times i just let off the throttle a little but not abrupt. Not sure if this helps with diagnosis but just wanted to have all the facts of how it went down.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2015, 08:56:26 PM »
as BDF noted, shutting down dosent rapidly stopi it and may make it worse....btdt...slaping occured...it'll exponetialy put you into a slapper., just saying as I have been there...many times I've clicked down a cog, and cranked it up more... not a suggestion, but an experience...
go back thru your install, and try what I offered.. also clean your discs with a scrubby pad, and brake kleen..

should work.. been 120+mph, 2 up, and was smooth... till I started getting kidney punches from momma...

I've nevernexperienced this on the 14, but have on the C10, and my KZ... just noting.

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Offline LandRocket

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Re: 08 front and rear weave or wobble... is this common?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2015, 06:38:20 PM »
Just to keep things alive, i gone ahead and ordered a throttle lock the Vista Cruise.

i am going to do the tire change myself as i do not trust my local bike shop for repairs. They charged me almost 300 for a oil change, forget that...  They also said when i bought this bike it was serviced... front rotors were warped and the final gear was almost dry. I lost trust in them after that. I have always been the DIY guy any ways. Figured motorcycle tires would be easy and i know the job is done right.

anyways recommendations on a good bead breaker and balancer?

Thanks every one.