Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Stephen.G.Fiddes on September 11, 2014, 08:45:56 AM
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SOLVED! See answer below, Post #2.
Ok, so the thread title tells you that I already know basically what it is... here's the symptoms.
-12k Miles, oil changed every 3k so far, will be 5k at next oil change. Last change was at 10k miles.
-BMC (K&N) Air filter
-Stock everything else important
-Modified the throttle tube to be like a throttlemeister, helped with the "snatch", but still experience all of the symptoms.
-Symptoms are 10x worse when cold, but also very present when the engine is at proper temp, or running hot (traffic etc)
-Have NOT changed the spark plugs yet. On my 650 the book said change them every 7k miles, I did every 15k miles and even then they looked perfect... I know every bike is different but I never noticed any change in how it ran with the new plugs because they looked almost new when they came out.
-Throttle cables are properly tightened
- The common dead spot at low RPM when slow starting (IE: With cars in front of me) Even with the idle raised.
- When engine braking then getting back on the gas (IE, approaching a corner) the bike hesitates. It's almost like you twist the throttle to open the butterflies, but the throttle forgets that when you twist it it's supposed to accelerate, and when it finally does, it tries to make up for lost time and it hits with power hard and all at once... Not exactly what you want when cornering...
- Recently I have noticed a popping when going from engine braking to light throttle (slowing down from 45 to 35 using engine braking)
- Surging under accelleration between 1500 and 4k RPM in 1st-3rd at light throttle opening.
I think I've narrowed it down to either Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) [NOT TMPS for those who think TPS means tire pressure sensor...) or throttle body synchronization. I've noticed it from about 1000 miles, and it seems to be getting worse. That leads me to believe it's the throttle bodies, BUT, I'm not 100% sure. I have an appointment in a couple weeks at a reputable dealer (ZG takes his bike there too) to diagnose the issue, and make sure it's not the TPS (should be covered by warranty) , but I don't want to pay dealer prices for something that is not covered by warranty (TB Sync). I'd just as soon spend the money on a vacuum gauge and do it myself if that's what it is.
Anyone else experienced any of the above and found a reliable solution?
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Sure sounds like the TPS.
No idea, none whatsoever if this will work, but I would try it if for nothing else curiosity. Turn the bike on, do not start it. Twist the throttle on full, roll off full, do it twice. Turn off bike, turn back on and start. Go for a ride and see if it works. Report back and tell me I am a motorcycle god, or worthless POS ;) FWIW, this works on GSs that have a similar problem with the TPS, ECU will read the full on/off position and do a rest to the current values. Same holds true when calibrating the PCV or PCIII.
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Sure sounds like the TPS.
No idea, none whatsoever if this will work, but I would try it if for nothing else curiosity. Turn the bike on, do not start it. Twist the throttle on full, roll off full, do it twice. Turn off bike, turn back on and start. Go for a ride and see if it works. Report back and tell me I am a motorcycle god, or worthless POS ;) FWIW, this works on GSs that have a similar problem with the TPS, ECU will read the full on/off position and do a rest to the current values. Same holds true when calibrating the PCV or PCIII.
I am a firm believer in "If it seems stupid but it works, it ain't stupid!"
So far, this isn't looking stupid... I'm a bit blown away... Granted, My engine was still hot, but there was a noticeable difference between when I parked at taco-hell, and when I left (after doing the procedure twice for good measure)
I will get back to you when the engine is cold (Likely tomorrow morning when I leave for work) and see how it goes. If it's fixed, I am going to change the thread title and suggest it goes into the FAQ section, as I know this is common!
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Well if it works, SOP will have to bypass "Hero Member" and go directly to "ZGGTR GOD".
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Good luck!
I'll be watching this one.
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UPDATE:
Just took it for a spin around the block. Engine had 1 bar on the hot-o-meter (AKA the area around the C was dark). I did a very hard start on it, harder than I ever do... Backed it out of my driveway, started the engine, waited 3 seconds, and started off. (Normally the shortest I let it warm up is starting the engine and sit on the bike while I'm punching GPS data in and logging my start mileage for the day)
Initially it was hesitant, but it was an appropriate amount of hesitation for a cold engine. Not NEARLY the amount that it would choke up before. Nothing more than I would expect, nothing more than I have experienced on other EFI or Carb'd bikes. I just feathered the clutch, and it kept right on running, where it definitely would have died before, Even on an uphill start about 10 seconds into riding with a still cold engine)
After taking the long way through my neighborhood around the block, I hit a curvy area a little harder (for a neighborhood) and the throttle was buttery smooth, through curves that the engine would normally choke up at even hot. Only "Hesitation" in power was the shaft-drive catching up (similar to a chain picking up the slack, but obv. more-so with the shaft drive)
I am fully confident that this has solved the problem, and will be cancelling my appt at the dealership in a few days (to make sure this actually fixes it)
Thanks SOP! I guess you are a Motorcycle god! :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:
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Good deal!! ;D Glad I good be of help and hope the fix is permanent.
It would be nice if others with a similar issue could give it a shot, see how it works for them.
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Good deal!! ;D Glad I good be of help and hope the fix is permanent.
It would be nice if others with a similar issue could give it a shot, see how it works for them.
I would encourage anyone that is less than happy with their throttle response to give it a shot... I know there's a lot of people out there.
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This site DELIVERS!!! :salute:
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This site DELIVERS!!! :salute:
+1 :thumbs:
Chet, how did you know this would recalibrate the TPS?
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UPDATE 2:
I tried so hard to kill it this morning. Did everything i knew that would cause it to die when i started. It. Kept. Running.
Throttle response is so much better, bike seems to be running smoother, my butt dyno says it has more power, and SO FAR my MPGs seem to have gone up. Very confidence inspiring having the throttle react exactly as it should.
I dont absolutely hate riding this bike anymore... Because it was not fun before constantly being scared of how it would react with every touch of the throttle. Smooth as butter now!
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+1 :thumbs:
Chet, how did you know this would recalibrate the TPS?
An ECU is an ECU, figured if it worked on the GS, maybe it would work here. I guess you could just call it blind luck or experience :)
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Now we're all gonna try this to see what happens.
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Now we're all gonna try this to see what happens.
Got that right! My throttle response is ok so I don't expect anything but its so simple I'm going to try it anyway before I ride home tonight.
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I mentioned it to the guy at my shop (EDR Performance) and he was blown away. He's gunna try it on the FZ09 when they get another one in because that's notorious for being a rough bike on the throttle. We'll see what happens with that!
He did bring up a very good point, that I'm actually curious on... "Did the dealer forget to do that when they built the bike out of the crate?"
Now my question is, is this a procedure that Dealers are supposed to do? Next question, does it get reset when the battery is removed? All things to ponder...
EDIT: Just talked to the guys at Hillsboro Motosport (the dealer I purchased the bike from) and they were just as blown away as EDR, and will be using that info to help others! Good Job SOP. :finger_fing11: :finger_fing11: :finger_fing11: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :hail: :hail: :hail:
Edit 2: I just did this with only partially closing the throttle, and it ran like rotten turd again. Super rich too. Re-did it properly and smooth as butter. Video coming later.
Im seriously absolutely blown away!
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Edit 2: I just did this with only partially closing the throttle, and it ran like rotten turd again. Super rich too. Re-did it properly and smooth as butter. Video coming later.
Very strange. It seems like this should be documented in the at least the service manual.
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I've owned several bikes that had this procedure in the owner's manual, as needing to be done after a battery replacement. Strange that is it is needed to resync the TPS, but not listed in the manual. Can't hurt to try this out on any FI engine.
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http://youtu.be/6tdkwHXydy4 (http://youtu.be/6tdkwHXydy4)
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this forum is amazing, thanks guys!
BTW... I'll have to have a talk with my dealer about this one, not to tell him, like others mentioned, but to ask him if he knew about it, which I suspect he does. Because every time I have some play on the throttle cables I adjust them exactly as they're supposed to be, and the bike still has the hesitation. I have PCV and throttle tamer. But every single time I pick it up from the service and I told him about the issue, the bike runs super smooth. The tech that works on my bike (really knowledgeable guy, and very humble) never mentioned this.
Inquiring minds...
In any case, SOP: you've got a spot in the Who's Who in ZGGTR.org :hail:
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Thanks guys..Even a blind Kirby finds a nut now and again ;)
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Do you think it is necessary to turn the bike off and back on again after rolling the throttle twice? It seems like that step shouldn't be required (just a guess).
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No idea Max, just seems to make sense for the ECU to remember the setting during shut down. When I am reflashing my F250 part of the procedure is to tkey off after flash, back on and start. Same holds true for the GS procedure.
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No idea Max, just seems to make sense for the ECU to remember the setting during shut down. When I am reflashing my F250 part of the procedure is to tkey off after flash, back on and start. Same holds true for the GS procedure.
I look at it this way. When you install a program onto your computer (or God forbid, windows updates...) it needs to be shut down and re-booted to see the changes. I think that's whats happening there.
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UPDATE 2:
I tried so hard to kill it this morning. Did everything i knew that would cause it to die when i started. It. Kept. Running.
Throttle response is so much better, bike seems to be running smoother, my butt dyno says it has more power, and SO FAR my MPGs seem to have gone up. Very confidence inspiring having the throttle react exactly as it should.
I dont absolutely hate riding this bike anymore... Because it was not fun before constantly being scared of how it would react with every touch of the throttle. Smooth as butter now!
That's great! You know what else? Check your mirror, I think that you're actually better looking today. ;)
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That's great! You know what else? Check your mirror, I think that you're actually better looking today. ;)
Dangit, now i have 7 years of bad luck.... I guess i still look goofy....
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Dangit, now i have 7 years of bad luck.... I guess i still look goofy....
Maybe you just need to be recalibrated? Check with your SO. :)
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Even a blind Kirby finds a nut now and again ;)
You really shouldn't talk about Brian that way, he's different for sure, but he's not a nut (except mybe for that razor thing he's got goin on).
...joking aside...very well done Son of..er... SoP! :chugbeer: :thumbs: :chugbeer:
(http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n2/hunnybunnnz/new%20album/compliments%20for%20Singsnap/ClappingSmilieExcellent.gif)
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OK...so I saw Stephen's video out on facey books. Thought to myself, self, this seems to be the exact same issue that I am having. Being an adventurous sort; I gave it a shot.
Short story, made even shorter, the "recalibration", seems to have worked. ;D
What it leads me to, is, when starting, as you grab the throttle, prior to pressing the starter button, would a partial throttle opening also cause it to go out of cal when starting... ???
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As an aside. My idle speed has dropped to 1100 rpm, down from 1300.
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As an aside. My idle speed has dropped to 1100 rpm, down from 1300.
Just adjust the idle back up... lol
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I believe that 1100 is where it should be. I bumped it up a while ago when I was having some battery problems.
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OK...so I saw Stephen's video out on facey books. Thought to myself, self, this seems to be the exact same issue that I am having. Being an adventurous sort; I gave it a shot.
Short story, made even shorter, the "recalibration", seems to have worked. ;D
This thread is absolutely fascinating. Could be the "best kept secret ever"?
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We're not real good at keeping secrets here. :finger_fing11:
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This thread is absolutely fascinating. Could be the "best kept secret ever"?
Ya know, I'm actually curious if this is intended to be a secret kept, or if it's an unintended side effect in the ECU... It's not in the service manuals, From what I've heard even dealers don't do this, it's kindof strange...
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Sweet news!
I'll do this next time I ride, just for S and G's.
I have never touched the throttle before starting my bike.
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I tried this procedure yesterday before heading out for a nice cool ride @ 42f. I can't say that I noticed any differences but I haven't had any issues with my bike and the way it runs (knocking on wood).
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I tried this procedure yesterday before heading out for a nice cool ride @ 42f. I can't say that I noticed any differences but I haven't had any issues with my bike and the way it runs (knocking on wood).
I've seen a couple comments that people tried it when the engine was cold and it made a small difference, then when they stopped on their ride, did it again (engine completely warm) and there was a marked improvement.
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I've seen a couple comments that people tried it when the engine was cold and it made a small difference, then when they stopped on their ride, did it again (engine completely warm) and there was a marked improvement.
I'll give this a try the next time I'm out and about. :thumbs:
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This is ALL experimental at this stage so if people try this, It'd be good to know the following
Were you unhappy with your throttle activity before?
Was your bike warm or cold?
Were you happy with your results/ did you notice any change?
Did you do it a second time under different conditions that made it better?
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2012 bike here...
- not exactly happy with the throttle response before. quite snatchy when rolling from a closed throttle at any speed. i thought it was because i never synched the throttle bodies (50,000+km, valve clearance done).
- (before) cold, performs very well. hot, not so well.
(after) good throttle response, engine hot or cold.
- never noticed any snatchy feel when rolling the throttle on (from closed) at any speed.
- never did the procedure a second time.
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This thread is absolutely fascinating. Could be the "best kept secret ever"?
+1 Seems like this should be in the user manual and definitely in the service manual.
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2012 bike here...
- not exactly happy with the throttle response before. quite snatchy when rolling from a closed throttle at any speed. i thought it was because i never synched the throttle bodies (50,000+km, valve clearance done).
- (before) cold, performs very well. hot, not so well.
(after) good throttle response, engine hot or cold.
- never noticed any snatchy feel when rolling the throttle on (from closed) at any speed.
- never did the procedure a second time.
YAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!
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Just saw this thread and absolutely no doubt about it, I should turn away and just keep going..... but.....
I am not following this: If you folks are saying the bike powers on in the 'calibration' mode, wouldn't opening the throttle, say, 1/3 of the way and horribly miss- calibrate the TPS? Also, it would be considered a poor idea I think for anything to simply enter any kind of calibration mode without the operator knowing it and even being required to do something to enter that mode. Lastly, why would re-calibration be needed so often?
With all due respect to everyone, this just does not make any sense to me. Anything electronic that I have ever seen that could be calibrated in any way requires direct, distinct user input to 1) get into that mode and 2) to actually change anything that will be used for future reference, and finally 3) it is always acknowledged that something was done so the user ('recalibrator' I guess in this case) is made aware that the task was completed.
And just for reference, a very common device that does require throttle calibration, a Power Commander, absolutely requires both initiation and interaction upon the part of the user to accomplish this.
Just as food for thought, if the bike did power up in 'calibration' mode, there would be C-14's all over the place horribly miss- calibrated because they were powered up, the throttle tinkered with (but not carefully fully opened and closed) absolutely by mistake.
Sorry -not trying to rain on anyone's parade, and if this procedure 'works' for you then great. I just do not see this as a viable method or anything any mfg. would code into a device to allow change without specific intention on the part of the user. Further, how would anyone know he / she actually did accomplish anything without some kind of feedback (nothing complex, just for example the generic red LED on the dash blinking twice perhaps)?
If this were a legitimate procedure, why would it not be in the manual? If it is in the service manual, can anyone point towards it? And if it were that easy to enter calibration mode and actually calibrate the throttle, it would certainly be in the manual to go through that procedure in the event the throttle had previously been miss- calibrated.
Brian
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Hey Brian, here's a link to what has been mentioned on this thread, concerning TPS reset procedure, for BMW motorcycles. Google shows links to similar procedures for other makes, too.
In BMW's case, it has to be done after replacing or disconnecting the battery. Just saying, and the video posted earlier shows that the reset does work. As to why it isn't in the owner's or service manuals, I don't know, but I tried it over the weekend per the video, and it did work as reported.
Not starting a pi$$ing match, but have known about this reset procedure for years, from other makes I've owned. tomp
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=636 (http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=636)
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No, no- No pi$$ing contest. Just stating my concern and thoughts about this procedure. And as always, more than willing to learn- I have been around here a long time and always look for knowledge, especially if it comes in the way of a correction because that means I thought I had knowledge but was wrong- far worse than simply not knowing.
Checked out the BMW thread and there are two big differences there- one is it only works after a battery disconnect / reconnect and the second is that it takes more than one turn of the throttle apparently. Both of those things go a long way to making the procedure make sense to me and both would prevent the accidental miss- calibration of the throttle position sensor through anything even approaching normal use.
One other thing I would point out: the EPA would never allow such a simple method to miss- calibrate a road use vehicle. In fact, the FJR's imported into this country have to have their fuel calibration ability literally removed to be EPA certified. To adjust the mixture on an FJR sold in the US, one must jumper the ECU to re- enable that ability. Look up the 'Barbarian mod' and 'FJR' and it will turn up immediately.
Again, we are just talking here so no need to be wary about disagreeing with me. In fact, I would appreciate being pointed toward any documentation on any model motorcycle that this procedure will work on, especially any Japanese motorcycle.
Brian
Hey Brian, here's a link to what has been mentioned on this thread, concerning TPS reset procedure, for BMW motorcycles. Google shows links to similar procedures for other makes, too.
In BMW's case, it has to be done after replacing or disconnecting the battery. Just saying, and the video posted earlier shows that the reset does work. As to why it isn't in the owner's or service manuals, I don't know, but I tried it over the weekend per the video, and it did work as reported.
Not starting a pi$$ing match, but have known about this reset procedure for years, from other makes I've owned. tomp
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=636 (http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=636)
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You make some good points Brian. Would love to hear a definitive response from mother kaki.
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Spock - Fascinating! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ#)
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Funny, hear the word once, it makes sense to the brain. Hear it that many times and it becomes a confusing jumble of letters. "fast nating" What the heck is a nating, and is it faster than a C14?
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Brian: I believe it is required to turn the throttle twice for it to take effect. You also have to shut off and re-turn on the bike for it to take effect so its not like its easily undone or mis-calibrated. Im willing to try later as I've already un-calibrated and re-calibrated with no ill effects. I do know that this has definately made a huge difference for me, and while it may not be in the service manual, it does work, as many have noted since this thread began.
Its an electronic device. They do the dumbest things at times.
Again, not to start a pi$$ing match.
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Will youse guize chillax? :-) We are just talking here, nobody is going to go nuts or even get cranky. No contest of any kind and nothing is personal. Besides, Jim will ride heard over us and stop us from making a mess even if we try, right Jim? ;)
Electronics, especially those that are coded (programmed) really do not do anything they were not programmed to do. If there is a calibration procedure in a C-14 for the throttle position, it is there because someone wrote it and then burned it into every single ECU ever made for these bikes. That is exactly my point- this absolutely cannot be some kind of 'back door' (Easy Boys!) that no one meant to exist but allows us to cleverly tinker with the air / fuel mixture. And if there is a calibration mechanism, I believe that 1) you could not get there without a very specific sequences of events more complicated than turning the ign. on and off, even turning the throttle twice, and 2) there would be some kind of feedback that you had accomplished such a recalibration.
And of course, the others reasons I already stated.
But again, I am happy to find out when I am wrong because it is an opportunity to learn something new and get rid of 'bad knowledge'. So by all means, let's find some documentation about this.... and I do not mean a thread on a different forum; something in the way of a manufacturer's documentation works great for me. And not limited to Kawasaki- any Japanese vehicle mfg. doing this would be absolutely fascinating to me. German is OK but not so great- they really do write some poor software- look up the revision list of, say, a BMW K1200GT and you will be amazed at how many releases there were (and it is probably ongoing).
Brian
Brian: I believe it is required to turn the throttle twice for it to take effect. You also have to shut off and re-turn on the bike for it to take effect so its not like its easily undone or mis-calibrated. Im willing to try later as I've already un-calibrated and re-calibrated with no ill effects. I do know that this has definately made a huge difference for me, and while it may not be in the service manual, it does work, as many have noted since this thread began.
Its an electronic device. They do the dumbest things at times.
Again, not to start a pi$$ing match.
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...let's find some documentation about this.... and I do not mean a thread on a different forum; something in the way of a manufacturer's documentation works great for me. And not limited to Kawasaki- any Japanese vehicle mfg. doing this would be absolutely fascinating to me.
Brian
If I have time tonight I will go through this procedure and check and see if it actually works.
I can connect the KDS and check my TPS readings, and then "calibrate" the TPS manually, and check the readings again. Further to that, I could actually "calibrate" it incorrectly, and then check the readings again and see what the ECU has to say for itself;).
It's not documentation, but it's as close a test as I can do to prove the theory or not.
I suppose it is possible for the TPS readings to vary slightly at both the 0% and 100% ends of the scale from bike to bike? When you install a PCV that is designed for your particular motorcycle, it comes pre-set to the OEM TPS open and closed voltages. They are however adjustable...but any that I've ever installed only had to be adjusted by a couple hundredths of a volt on either end of the scale. Even if you leave them un-adjusted, there is no difference...well, nothing that the common man can tell by listening to or riding the motorcycle. That I have tested, numerous times.
Rem
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Outstanding! I would absolutely accept that kind of data as proof; exactly as you say, you should be able to "calibrate" it to, say, 1/2 throttle as WOT and then back to actual WOT over and over again if this works. Even if you miss by 10%, it would be incredibly obvious as there would be a huge change in the interpreted value of the throttle position sensor.
Great idea- I look forward to hearing what you find. One of the best things to happen around 'here' was you getting KDS and looking in all the nooks and crannies and then reporting the info. Good stuff, and thanks for sharing.
I know on the Power Commanders they have to be calibrated on both ends of the throttle scale: 0% (idle, when fully warm) and 100% throttle. The ones I have done vary about 2%. But it is a very deliberate procedure that requires a computer be plugged into the PC and each step of calibration (change) requires user interaction and acknowledgement.
Brian
If I have time tonight I will go through this procedure and check and see if it actually works.
I can connect the KDS and check my TPS readings, and then "calibrate" the TPS manually, and check the readings again. Further to that, I could actually "calibrate" it incorrectly, and then check the readings again and see what the ECU has to say for itself;).
It's not documentation, but it's as close a test as I can do to prove the theory or not.
<snip>
Rem
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FWIW, Here's the FAQ's on the JuiceBox TPS recalibration. Similar to what has been discussed here, but with the engine running. FAQ #4 is the referenced one. 0% to 100% to 0%...simple...
http://www.twobros.com/Perf_Products/Juice_Box_Pro/JuiceBox-FAQ.htm (http://www.twobros.com/Perf_Products/Juice_Box_Pro/JuiceBox-FAQ.htm)
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Exactly- a simple, user- interactive process that could not possibly be executed by mistake or without the user's absolutely direct input needed. That is exactly my point.
By the way, the Power Commander is similar except the user has to hit the 'calibrate' button at both 0% and 100% throttle openings and the new numbers will be input into the columns so it is obvious when it has been done.
Brian
FWIW, Here's the FAQ's on the JuiceBox TPS recalibration. Similar to what has been discussed here, but with the engine running. FAQ #4 is the referenced one. 0% to 100% to 0%...simple...
http://www.twobros.com/Perf_Products/Juice_Box_Pro/JuiceBox-FAQ.htm (http://www.twobros.com/Perf_Products/Juice_Box_Pro/JuiceBox-FAQ.htm)
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Outstanding! I would absolutely accept that kind of data as proof; exactly as you say, you should be able to "calibrate" it to, say, 1/2 throttle as WOT and then back to actual WOT over and over again if this works. Even if you miss by 10%, it would be incredibly obvious as there would be a huge change in the interpreted value of the throttle position sensor.
Great idea- I look forward to hearing what you find. One of the best things to happen around 'here' was you getting KDS and looking in all the nooks and crannies and then reporting the info. Good stuff, and thanks for sharing.
Ok, so my lovely wife took over the BBQ so I could execute this important test...lol. She's so awesome...lol.
Ok, I did four checks with the KDS:
1. Checked my TPS readings when initially turning the bike on.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
2. Did full calibration as described on page one of this thread, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .69v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
3. Did partial calibration...twisted the throttle 0-50% twice, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
4. Did second partial calibration...twisted throttle 0-75% twice, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
Now, it should be noted that my 0% reading varies slightly between .66v and .69v depending on how hard I close the throttle. This is why aftermarket devices like the PCV have adjustable settings for 0% and 100%. Although the voltage readings of the individual TPS units will all be the same, the 'actual' closed and open throttle voltages will vary from bike to bike slightly due to throttle cable adjustments, idle settings, throttle body cleanliness? etc, etc.
I should also mention that my C14 is/was working perfectly fine...no complaints. It does display some throttle snatch, but I think this is pretty common with these FI set-ups. I think it has something to do with the transition from the IAP map to the TPS map, but that's just a guess based on where it happens on my particular bike.
I'm not saying that this TPS calibration doesn't work...but the numbers above show what my bike did before and after this procedure.
HTH,
Rem :o
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Works for me- thanks! And say thanks to your wife too :-)
Brian
Ok, so my lovely wife took over the BBQ so I could execute this important test...lol. She's so awesome...lol.
Ok, I did four checks with the KDS:
<snip>
I'm not saying that this TPS calibration doesn't work...but the numbers above show what my bike did before and after this procedure.
HTH,
Rem :o
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Been out and about, come back and, well nice to see some form of science being brought in. I won't can't dispute anyones findings or results. I can wish we had a KDS on hand for those having success to see the numbers on the KDS. Rem, do you have a PCV on board? Curious as to an apples to apples result.
Brian, it may not be published for the very reason to pointed out, EPA and all that nanny state stuff. As a curious sort, I would almost expect you to place a line on your throttle and a corresponding line on the throttle housing, warm the bike up, shut it off, try the procedure at say %50, turn the key off, start the bike and take a ride. See if anything happened. Nothing lost in trying. If memory serves me right you have a PC3 installed? So it may not be the same variable to validate what happens on other bikes, but then again???
Again, no doubt in my mind it has worked for at least one member and results like that are hard to attribute to the placebo effect a say, new farkle has on an owner.
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Been out and about, come back and, well nice to see some form of science being brought in. I won't can't dispute anyones findings or results. I can wish we had a KDS on hand for those having success to see the numbers on the KDS. Rem, do you have a PCV on board? Curious as to an apples to apples result.
Brian, it may not be published for the very reason to pointed out, EPA and all that nanny state stuff. As a curious sort, I would almost expect you to place a line on your throttle and a corresponding line on the throttle housing, warm the bike up, shut it off, try the procedure at say %50, turn the key off, start the bike and take a ride. See if anything happened. Nothing lost in trying. If memory serves me right you have a PC3 installed? So it may not be the same variable to validate what happens on other bikes, but then again???
Again, no doubt in my mind it has worked for at least one member and results like that are hard to attribute to the placebo effect a say, new farkle has on an owner.
I'm running a custom flashed FI ECU, so no, don't have a PCV installed anymore.
The PCV would show the same numbers I posted above, as it is reading the same TPS that the FI ECU is.
I have seen bikes with PC3's and PC5's running poorly because their TPS calibrations were way off. Once set properly, they always perform better. I'm talking adjustments like 10% or more. If they're off by only a percent or two, I don't really ever see any noticeable difference, other than maybe the idle changing by a hair or two.
If the procedure is working for some folks, then that's great...seriously. If an issue can be fixed that easily, it is definitely worth being happy about imho.
Rem 8)
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Rem I agree, just being the guy who wants variables consistent for the purpose of validating findings. I like knowing why something worked, that it worked is great, and would be happy that it worked. Like Brian, I would be un happy not knowing how it worked, and would wonder why after all these years we never knew this existed, hence the skeptical approach.
Leaves me wondering even deeper, seeing as how the Euro bikes have the narrow band O2 sensor, how does the Euro ECU differ from the rest? Is it the same?
I bet Guhl may have some kind of answer as they have seen the innards of the 1s and 0s...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tdkwHXydy4#t=65 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tdkwHXydy4#t=65)
Went back and rewatched the video. He messes up the calibration buy starting with the throttle partially open, and you will notice that the idle speed is still the same both times, but he said it was running richer, allowing for the instant RPM rise. It is that the throttle movement doesn't create a smooth acceleration of the engine. Recalibrating brings the throttle movement and the acceleration back in sync with one another.
It SEEMS, that the 0 and 100% voltages would remain the same as Rem showed, but the movement in between was somehow altered, causing the choppy acceleration when out of calibration. The recalibration smoothed everything out again.
Are there stepper motors or secondary sensors at work here that are actually being aletered and/or restored through the open close throttle movements?
I DON'T KNOW, just wondering, that's all... tomp
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No, nothing mechanical can be changed in any way by altering any readings or electronic sensor reports. The throttle position sensor merely reports the radial position of the throttle rod to the ECU, which then uses that data to pick a cell from a look- up table and inject (Easy Boys!) the correct amount of fuel and perhaps set the timing. Changing the calibration of that sensor would result in electronic changes only, nothing mechanical.
The way the throttle position sensor is calibrated at the factory is to set the idle, read the resistance of the TPS sensor and physically rotate it until it reports the correct reading. The service manual will report that the TPS cannot be calibrated but that is not true; it is just not supposed to be calibrated by US in the field. In fact, there are elliptical slots where the screws anchor it for exactly that adjustment.... and they are 'paint locked' at the factory, exactly like the fast idle cam that "cannot" be adjusted either.
Brian
<snip>
Are there stepper motors or secondary sensors at work here that are actually being aletered and/or restored through the open close throttle movements?
I DON'T KNOW, just wondering, that's all... tomp
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The ECU's are different between the bikes sold in the US and Canada, and the rest of the world, and as you mention, the O2 sensor is the major difference. Our bikes do not have them so the ECU would generate a fault if it tried to gather data from them. Besides that, our ECU's and the [non US / Canada] bikes have different part numbers for the ECUs.
But I do not think that makes any different at all to what this thread is about.
Brian
<snip>
Leaves me wondering even deeper, seeing as how the Euro bikes have the narrow band O2 sensor, how does the Euro ECU differ from the rest? Is it the same?
<snip>
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It SEEMS, that the 0 and 100% voltages would remain the same as Rem showed, but the movement in between was somehow altered, causing the choppy acceleration when out of calibration. The recalibration smoothed everything out again.
Are there stepper motors or secondary sensors at work here that are actually being altered and/or restored through the open close throttle movements?
I DON'T KNOW, just wondering, that's all... tomp
Not trying to stir anything up either, maybe the placebo effect, maybe not...but I'm not sure what the test voltages Remb' put up prove or disprove, as it's what the ECU does with that information that counts right? I mean the "calibrate TPS procedure ", if it indeed does anything, isn't going to change the output of a sensor but it may change what is done with that information in the ECU. Right?
No, nothing mechanical can be changed in any way by altering any readings or electronic sensor reports. The throttle position sensor merely reports the radial position of the throttle rod to the ECU, which then uses that data to pick a cell from a look- up table and inject (Easy Boys!) the correct amount of fuel and perhaps set the timing. Changing the calibration of that sensor would result in electronic changes only, nothing mechanical.
On a bike with the flies still in (even if reflashed) couldn't a "Calibrate TPS procedure" (again if it really does anything) change how the secondaries open? (stepper motors right?)
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I should also mention that my C14 is/was working perfectly fine...no complaints. It does display some throttle snatch, but I think this is pretty common with these FI set-ups. I think it has something to do with the transition from the IAP map to the TPS map, but that's just a guess based on where it happens on my particular bike.
By the way what's an IAP map? I assume it's something to do with idle?
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By the way what's an IAP map? I assume it's something to do with idle?
Intake Air Pressure... More than you ever want to know about Motorcycle FI systems. The whole book is there, but it links to p58 where the IAP is discussed. tp
http://books.google.com/books?id=wC2dThrY2BMC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=motorcycle+IAP+map&source=bl&ots=jglWURwYdg&sig=TJPc44CtwW1FtvteVYb9akjv-GQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eW0XVIvzPKri8gGTgoGwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=motorcycle%20IAP%20map&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=wC2dThrY2BMC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=motorcycle+IAP+map&source=bl&ots=jglWURwYdg&sig=TJPc44CtwW1FtvteVYb9akjv-GQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eW0XVIvzPKri8gGTgoGwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=motorcycle%20IAP%20map&f=false)
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Not trying to stir anything up either, maybe the placebo effect, maybe not...but I'm not sure what the test voltages Remb' put up prove or disprove, as it's what the ECU does with that information that counts right? I mean the "calibrate TPS procedure ", if it indeed does anything, isn't going to change the output of a sensor but it may change what is done with that information in the ECU. Right?
Well, in order for the ECU to make it's calculations based on where the throttle position is at any given time, it needs to know what voltage is zero (closed throttle), and what voltage is 100% (WOT). The sweep of the TPS...between 0-100% is what the FI ECU is reading. In order to change that 'sweep' data, you would have to change the voltage outputs at 0% and 100% for the ECU to see any change. Does that make any sense? So, all things being relative...if the closed throttle voltage and the wide open throttle voltage don't change, then nothing within the sweep between the two would change either.
By the way what's an IAP map? I assume it's something to do with idle?
Idle Air Pressure. The C14 (and other FI Kawasaki models) actually run on two fuel maps. The engine runs on the IAP map from 0% throttle position to approximately 10% throttle position at which time the ECU switches over to the TPS map. There is a MAP sensor attached to the throttle bodies that is reading the pressure below the throttle plates. This data is compared with the outside air pressure (sensor under the seat).
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Yes, you are correct. In processing the analog signal (the voltage sent by the sensor) into digital data that the ECU would actually use, there could be a coefficient in there or possibly even an algorithm to 'map' (and skew) the entire plot of the analog input to the digital map.
But that would defeat the purpose of displaying the information from the KDS because you would be looking at unmodified data that was modified by the ECU without being able to see the actual ECU used data. Put another way, if there was an electronic calibration algorithm, and the diagnostic software did not show it, what would be the point of looking at the raw data feed? That would be like watching the pressure inside the tire with a diagnostic tool only to have the actual TPS sensor alter that reading by compensating with temperature, which is does, and then feed it to the KiPass ECU: you could test the system but would have no idea what data should be showing on the LCD because it was altered after your test point.
Brian
Not trying to stir anything up either, maybe the placebo effect, maybe not...but I'm not sure what the test voltages Remb' put up prove or disprove, as it's what the ECU does with that information that counts right? I mean the "calibrate TPS procedure ", if it indeed does anything, isn't going to change the output of a sensor but it may change what is done with that information in the ECU. Right?
<snip>
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So what happens when the battery is disconnected and then connected? I'm going to bring my old past Prius into the mix... I replaced the throttle body assembly cause it was going whacko with the idle and it was setting codes that indicated the TB assembly was the culprit. I replaced it with a used TB and it ran like :censored: so I figured the car needed to be rebooted and disconnected the battery and connected it back. It then ran fine. Seems that the TB recalibrated itself to the ECU or vice versa and it worked fine until I traded it in a 100k miles later.
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Unless it had nothing to do with the throttle position sensor at all. I had a Ford Expedition that would 'seek' the lowest possible idle after the ECU was disconnected.... and it would run slower and slower until it got a shot of throttle and ran too fast. It would repeat this cycle over and over again in smaller and smaller increments until viola! a steady idle. All it was was the ECU probing (Easy Boys!) for the low idle threshold of the engine. A typical digital 'learning' tool but usually we (the end user) cannot see them actually work. Then again, Ford has always been rather..... plain in their execution.
And go easy on the technical jargon, would ya'? (I had to look up 'whacko'). ;D
Brian
So what happens when the battery is disconnected and then connected? I'm going to bring my old past Prius into the mix... I replaced the throttle body assembly cause it was going whacko with the idle and it was setting codes that indicated the TB assembly was the culprit. I replaced it with a used TB and it ran like :censored: so I figured the car needed to be rebooted and disconnected the battery and connected it back. It then ran fine. Seems that the TB recalibrated itself to the ECU or vice versa and it worked fine until I traded it in a 100k miles later.
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I want my Mikuni carbs and Holley 875's back. I understand all of the wonderful things FI does for mileage, warm up, altitude changes, and EPA compliance; but it is now virtually impossibe to understand, much less work on the systems, without computers and an engineering degree. OK, rant over. I do like that I can get in my car or on my bike and just crank and go, though...
Someone please explain what is happening with the definite changes in throttle response in the posted video. That is what this thread is really all about, but we still don't have an answer/understanding of the outcome from actions taken there. Thanks, tom
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I do like that I can get in my car or on my bike and just crank and go, though...
Well that's just it isn't it?...lol. I remember turning my high beam headlights on with my left foot too...good grief...how archaic...lol.
Seriously though, the 'new' EFI equipment...ECU and throttle position sensors, injectors, MAP sensors, etc on all these motorcycles in the past decade or so has made them super reliable. Yes you need special tools to work on them...but that's also because they so rarely ever need work in the first place....and why there are discussions about how incompetent dealerships are...lol.
Rem 8)
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Well that's just it isn't it?...lol. I remember turning my high beam headlights on with my left foot too...good grief...how archaic...lol.
Like new cars with the new fangled push button starters. My dad's 52 Chevy had a little black on button the dash to start the engine. I believe my 55 Plymouth Belvedere was the same. Just a key and no FOB.....
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Idle Air Pressure. The C14 (and other FI Kawasaki models) actually run on two fuel maps. The engine runs on the IAP map from 0% throttle position to approximately 10% throttle position at which time the ECU switches over to the TPS map. There is a MAP sensor attached to the throttle bodies that is reading the pressure below the throttle plates. This data is compared with the outside air pressure (sensor under the seat).
This makes sense, thanks Remb'.
Well, in order for the ECU to make it's calculations based on where the throttle position is at any given time, it needs to know what voltage is zero (closed throttle), and what voltage is 100% (WOT). The sweep of the TPS...between 0-100% is what the FI ECU is reading. In order to change that 'sweep' data, you would have to change the voltage outputs at 0% and 100% for the ECU to see any change. Does that make any sense? So, all things being relative...if the closed throttle voltage and the wide open throttle voltage don't change, then nothing within the sweep between the two would change either.
Yes, you are correct. In processing the analog signal (the voltage sent by the sensor) into digital data that the ECU would actually use, there could be a coefficient in there or possibly even an algorithm to 'map' (and skew) the entire plot of the analog input to the digital map.
But that would defeat the purpose of displaying the information from the KDS because you would be looking at unmodified data that was modified by the ECU without being able to see the actual ECU used data. Put another way, if there was an electronic calibration algorithm, and the diagnostic software did not show it, what would be the point of looking at the raw data feed? That would be like watching the pressure inside the tire with a diagnostic tool only to have the actual TPS sensor alter that reading by compensating with temperature, which is does, and then feed it to the KiPass ECU: you could test the system but would have no idea what data should be showing on the LCD because it was altered after your test point.
This part not so much. The sensor is going to show the same voltage (within certain tolerances for temp and battery condition etc) but if there really is a "TPS procedure effect" then somewhere is a modified table that says what voltage is a closed throttle and what voltage is an open throttle. In the video he purposely used a throttle lock to set an artificially high closed throttle setting (let's pick a voltage say 1.4 volts or whatever, but more than .68 V ) and then use the real WOT (let's say 3.78 V) and it ran...jumpy... I guess what I'm saying is looking at the voltages from the sensor before and after a "TPS Calibration procedure" doesn't really show anything useful using a KDS or a voltmeter. Obviously a simple On/off ignition with a couple of full throttle pulls in between isn't going to change the sensors function. Am I making sense? It seems that what we want to find with the KDS is a map or table that is significantly changed before and after the procedure is performed. Maybe it jumps from the IAP map to a TPS map at a different point based on what it thinks is a 10% throttle opening is based on a higher voltage because of the bad calibration? I just don't see where the raw data from the sensor could show anything useful (in this instance on this subject {the existance or non existance of a TPS calibration effect}), and I wish I was smart enough to figure out why both of you (who are both smarter than I am ) do? To my limited thinking ability :-\ this is like testing the input voltage to an old time tube radio (since we seem to be suddenly talking about old stuff as well ;D)with a tube removed and then replacing the tube and checking the input voltage again and saying the tube isn't needed because the input voltage didn't change, still 115 VAC.
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Well that's just it isn't it?...lol. I remember turning my high beam headlights on with my left foot too...good grief...how archaic...lol.
Rem 8)
Ah sweet memories. I can still hear the click click of turning the high beams on..also remember using the choke..
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Ah sweet memories. I can still hear the click click of turning the high beams on..also remember using the choke..
Depending on the outside temp, pull the choke lever half or all the way out, and slowly press the lever back in, as the engine warmed. Also Pouring hot water on the engine and radiator, before we had antifreeze. Can't remember if the engine ever froze up, but probably did occasionally...
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Ah sweet memories. I can still hear the click click of turning the high beams on..also remember using the choke..
Three on the tree...
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Three on the tree...
My dad always shifted from 1st to 3rd, thinking he was saving gas and the engine by avoiding 2nd. Learned it from his dad.
Dad is 98 now, and hasn't driven in five years. Gave his last car to me, I gave it to my son. Yep, great memories.
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I just wish Brian would go old school and give it a try. The old "Trial and error" methodology. Nothing fancy smancy about it, unless of course he has some kinda Mary Jane Tinklepants kinda burl wood under his side stand ;)
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Well, I am kinda' delicate. And it IS cold outside (down in 50's F !). But on top of everything else, I think Cory did the better try 'cause he has data feedback that I do not have.
But besides all that, I think we are in a good place here- we have discussed it pretty thoroughly, various people have tested it and gotten various results. Others will chime in and after a while, the majority will speak so we will have a good result. Hey, it works for elections, right? ;)
Brian
I just wish Brian would go old school and give it a try. The old "Trial and error" methodology. Nothing fancy smancy about it, unless of course he has some kinda Mary Jane Tinklepants kinda burl wood under his side stand ;)
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Ok, so my lovely wife took over the BBQ so I could execute this important test...lol. She's so awesome...lol.
Ok, I did four checks with the KDS:
1. Checked my TPS readings when initially turning the bike on.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
2. Did full calibration as described on page one of this thread, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .69v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
3. Did partial calibration...twisted the throttle 0-50% twice, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
4. Did second partial calibration...twisted throttle 0-75% twice, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v
Now, it should be noted that my 0% reading varies slightly between .66v and .69v depending on how hard I close the throttle. This is why aftermarket devices like the PCV have adjustable settings for 0% and 100%. Although the voltage readings of the individual TPS units will all be the same, the 'actual' closed and open throttle voltages will vary from bike to bike slightly due to throttle cable adjustments, idle settings, throttle body cleanliness? etc, etc.
I should also mention that my C14 is/was working perfectly fine...no complaints. It does display some throttle snatch, but I think this is pretty common with these FI set-ups. I think it has something to do with the transition from the IAP map to the TPS map, but that's just a guess based on where it happens on my particular bike.
I'm not saying that this TPS calibration doesn't work...but the numbers above show what my bike did before and after this procedure.
HTH,
Rem :o
Finally had a chance to read through everything... Had a 200 mile round trip to Hood River for work yesterday.
Anyways, OK...
So Rembrandt, you have the KDS equipment. Good to know, and if you don't mind, I'm going to pick apart the test procedure a bit, and someone PLEASE tell me if my thinking on this is wrong. I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but I am going to break this down Barney style to make sure we're working on common assumptions/ facts (if they are)
THE GLOWING LINES ARE THING'S I AM NOT 100% SURE ON. I WILL CHANGE/ UNGLOW THEM UPON CONFIRMATION.
The TPS, much like a volume knob on a guitar/ computer speakers/ etc, reads from 0%, to 100% (unless you are a kid in a garage band, then it goes to 11...).
TPS: (25-75% values determined with an interpolation calculator, for demonstration purposes only, these are NOT hard tested values. 0 and 100% values are tested per Rembrant using KDS above, may vary slightly between bikes)
[CHART 1] [THESE VALUES NEVER CHANGE EVER!]
TPS 0% = 0.68V
TPS 25% = 1.46V
TPS 50% = 2.23V
TPS 75% = 3.01V
TPS 100%= 3.78V
These TPS numbers represent 0% throttle opening, and 100% throttle opening. These Voltage numbers represent to the ECU how open the butterflies are. For the engine to run properly, the engineers have determined that it needs a certain air/ fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. The ECU reads the voltage from the TPS, and interpolates the Min/ Max voltages into percentages. The ECU then takes this percentage, and tells the injectors to spray in the appropriate amount of fuel for that percentage of the throttle being open. The amount of fuel per volt is (from my understanding) hard-programmed into the ECU, and cannot be changed without flashing the ECU. (At this point it goes from 'TPS throttle 0%', to the 'ECU throttle 0%' based on the voltage that the ECU is reading as 0%)
Now for all intensive purposes, lets say that the ECU tells the injectors to spray the following amounts of fuel per Volts: (FUEL CC's ARE MADE UP NUMBERS IN MY HEAD FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY!!!)
[CHART 2] [THESE VOLTAGES CAN CHANGE BASED ON THE CALIBRATION TO THE ECU. THE CC'S PER ECU PERCENTAGE NEVER CHANGES! (<<Edited to be correct info)
ECU 0% - 0.68V - 100CC
ECU 25% - 1.46V - 200CC
ECU 50% - 2.23V - 300CC
ECU 75% - 3.01V - 400CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC
Now lets say you have an un-calibrated system. For this demo we'll use TPS 25% TPS 100% (This is what I did in the video, by setting the throttle lock to ~25% and running the calibration.) Now the ECU and TPS are mismatched. The ECU see that when the throttle is fully closed (at idle), the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 100CC's of fuel in. (We know that in reality this is not the case, and that will be explained below)
[CHART 3]
ECU 0% - 1.46V - 100CC
ECU 25% - 2.04V - 200CC
ECU 50% - 2.62V - 300CC
ECU 75% - 3.20V - 400CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC
The ECU is now programmed to see that when the throttle is fully closed (at idle), the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, Therefore it needs to spray 100CC's of fuel in. Because it's a simple computer, it cannot detect a negative percentage. When you close the throttle completely, the ECU is putting out it's current amount of fuel for idle, set for TPS 25% (1.46V - 100CC), because according to the ECU's calibrated programming, TPS 25% = ECU 0%. Remember, the ECU cannot read negative percentages, so if ECU 0% (idle) is 1.46V, when you go below that (to TPS 0%, TRUE idle) it still sprays 100CC's of fuel. Now the bike is idling great. But as you open the throttle between TPS 0% and 25, it will still be spraying it's minimum 100CC's of fuel. That is not NEARLY enough to satisfy the thirst of the cylinders when that much air is going in. This costs lots of power, and can cause the bike to hickup, or even die.
[CHART 4]
Correct
Fuel CC
TPS 0% = 0.68V 100CC ECU OUT OF RANGE - 100CC - LEAN CONDITION (HESITATION OCCURS HERE due to insufficiant combustion)
TPS 25% = 1.46V 200CC ECU 0% - 1.46V - 100CC - A/F Mixture starts to finally increase (SPIKE IN RPMs OCCURS HERE)
TPS 50% = 2.23V 300CC ECU 33% - 2.23V - 232CC - Lean condition, less power, requiring slightly more throttle, using more fuel to maintain speed
TPS 75% = 3.01V 400CC ECU 67% - 3.01V - 364CC - Less lean condition, but still down on power, requiring slightly more throttle so on...
TPS 100%= 3.78V 500CC ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC - Proper A/F mixture
By properly calibrating the system, the ECU is reading the correct butterfly opening, therefore is putting the correct amount of fuel in.
Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking... I'm not an engineer.
[EDITED 23SEP2014 to have updated numbers and explanation regarding CHART 3 and 4]
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Thank you sir, for that. To me, the exact %'s and cc's don't really matter that much. That is the explaination I was seeking, and from the video creater, no less. I thought that was what was happening and even if every # isn't perfect, I am understanding the recalibration purpose, now. Again, Thank You Sir... tomp
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The ECU is now programmed to see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, Therefore it needs to spray 200CC's of fuel in. Because it's a simple computer, it cannot detect a negative percentage, so when you close the ACTUAL THROTTLE, the ECU is still putting out it's current minimum amount of fuel set for TPS 25%, because according to the ECU's calibrated programming, TPS 25% = ECU 0% Thus when you close the throttle completely, and the ECU is still putting out TPS 25% of fuel, but the Throttle is a 0%, you run into an extremely rich condition, thus making the engine run rough and inefficient.
Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking... I'm not an engineer.
Haha...don't worry, I'm only laughing here because we're having a fun and interesting discussion. This is quality stuff.
Ok, so...just to clarify...the FI ECU fuel map(s) are in percentages....not volts. Forget about the TPS volts for a second...the volts do not determine how much fuel is injected.
The FI ECU converts the TPS volts into percentages so that it knows exactly how far the throttle plates are open.
If you were able to calibrate the ECU so that 1.46v was 0%, then the ECU would inject the amount of fuel at 0% in the fuel map....which is @ idle.
I hope that helps.
Rem :o
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Haha...don't worry, I'm only laughing here because we're having a fun and interesting discussion. This is quality stuff.
Ok, so...just to clarify...the FI ECU fuel map(s) are in percentages....not volts. Forget about the TPS volts for a second...the volts do not determine how much fuel is injected.
The FI ECU converts the TPS volts into percentages so that it knows exactly how far the throttle plates are open.
If you were able to calibrate the ECU so that 1.46v was 0%, then the ECU would inject the amount of fuel at 0% in the fuel map....which is @ idle.
I hope that helps.
Rem :o
So I was close... ish...
So in reality it would be?
CORRECT
Fuel CCs
TPS 0% = 100CC ECU OUT OF RANGE - 100CC - Idle correct A/F, Lean until 25% throttle turn
TPS 25% = 200CC ECU 0% - 1.46V - 100CC - Correct A/F Mixture (SPIKE IN RPMs OCCURS HERE)
TPS 50% = 300CC ECU 33% - 2.23V - 232CC - Lean condition, less power, requiring slightly more throttle, using more fuel to maintain speed
TPS 75% = 400CC ECU 67% - 3.01V - 364CC - Less lean condition, but still down on power, requiring slightly more throttle so on...
TPS 100%= 500CC ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC - Proper A/F mixture
If it's running lean, then that wouldn't explain why I was smelling fuel out of the exhaust when I started it...
EDIT: I'm going to go back through my math steps again with that new knowledge after I get caught up on work here. May be tomorrow morning.
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Ok, so...just to clarify...the FI ECU fuel map(s) are in percentages....not volts. Forget about the TPS volts for a second...the volts do not determine how much fuel is injected.
The FI ECU converts the TPS volts into percentages so that it knows exactly how far the throttle plates are open.
If you were able to calibrate the ECU so that 1.46v was 0%, then the ECU would inject the amount of fuel at 0% in the fuel map....which is @ idle.
I hope that helps.
Rem :o
Yes, it helps me a bunch, I think. I thought that was what I was trying to say earlier.
However we still don't have any hard data (from the KDS or anywhere else) as to if the "TPS Calibration procedure" is changing anything or just what it is changing right? All we have hard data on is the sensor voltage.
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Yes, it helps me a bunch, I think. I thought that was what I was trying to say earlier.
However we still don't have any hard data (from the KDS or anywhere else) as to if the "TPS Calibration procedure" is changing anything or just what it is changing right? All we have hard data on is the sensor voltage.
Well, the lack of hard data is almost data in itself isn't it?
If there was a calibration procedure, it should definitely be in the service manual following an ECU change, and it isn't there. I actually have two ECU's...one is a spare from another 2010 model C14 that I bought when I was first flashing my ECU(s). I've swapped them in and out of my C14 many times, and I've never calibrated anything. If the FI ECU needs to be calibrated to the TPS in order for it to work properly, then there's no way that I should be able to install a used FI ECU out of a wrecked bike in my 2010 C14 and have it run showroom smooth.
I'm not trying to give the original poster a hard time or anything...lol, I'm just throwing some realism into the mix of optimism and skepticism...lol.
That's all just my opinion of course...maybe my C14 isn't running well and I think it is? Anything is possible...we all 'feel' things differently on these bikes that are mostly all the same.
Maybe we'll all learn something new here.
Rem :o
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That is what I was trying to address earlier- the KDS system would not be useful if it reported a sensor's position but that data was in any way 'massaged' or changed by the ECU. What the diagnostic software would have to report is the actual data [as used] by the ECU; if there were an electronic calibration mode, it would not be useful to show the technical the raw data without the calibration included or in a separate column. So Cory has already given you 'the poop' as the ECU reads it.
Just to add another bit of information: the throttle position sensor has circular slots where it bolts to the throttle body linkage. Those are there to adjust the sensor to 'read correctly' and.... wait for it..... calibrate the sensor to the installation on the bike. The factory does the adjustment, then uses the <glue- paint> to lock the sensor in that position. They would not do that if there was an electronic adjustment.
And finally, if there were such a calibration procedure, it would not only be in the manual, it would be in bold letters so the technicians working on the bike could correct all the miss- adjusted bikes that unwitting or unable customers got too first :-) Why would Kawasaki keep it a secret from them? How would they find out about this calibration procedure so they could work on the bike?
Again, not arguing or disputing anyone's' findings, just pointing out how I believe the system works and why, plus what I have found in other systems.
Brian
Yes, it helps me a bunch, I think. I thought that was what I was trying to say earlier.
However we still don't have any hard data (from the KDS or anywhere else) as to if the "TPS Calibration procedure" is changing anything or just what it is changing right? All we have hard data on is the sensor voltage.
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You posted while I was still typing I guess but more or less, yeah, what you said.
;) ;D
Brian
Well, the lack of hard data is almost data in itself isn't it?
If there was a calibration procedure, it should definitely be in the service manual following an ECU change, and it isn't there. I actually have two ECU's...one is a spare from another 2010 model C14 that I bought when I was first flashing my ECU(s). I've swapped them in and out of my C14 many times, and I've never calibrated anything. If the FI ECU needs to be calibrated to the TPS in order for it to work properly, then there's no way that I should be able to install a used FI ECU out of a wrecked bike in my 2010 C14 and have it run showroom smooth.
I'm not trying to give the original poster a hard time or anything...lol, I'm just throwing some realism into the mix of optimism and skepticism...lol.
That's all just my opinion of course...maybe my C14 isn't running well and I think it is? Anything is possible...we all 'feel' things differently on these bikes that are mostly all the same.
Maybe we'll all learn something new here.
Rem :o
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Well, the lack of hard data is almost data in itself isn't it?
<snip>
Maybe we'll all learn something new here.
I think the only way to get hard data would be to do a dyno run with it. That would give us a REAL look at all of the data...
I wonder if my shop will donate some dyno time for science... (Yeah right... lol)
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Actually, a dyno is not really what is wanted here- an O2 sensor log from a "miss- calibrated" C-14, coupled with the same bike "correctly calibrated" would be ideal. Now if we could only find someone with an O2 sensor on a C-14 that can collect that data and likes to tinker..... Let me think, who could that be..... ::)
:rotflmao:
Brian
I think the only way to get hard data would be to do a dyno run with it. That would give us a REAL look at all of the data...
I wonder if my shop will donate some dyno time for science... (Yeah right... lol)
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Actually, a dyno is not really what is wanted here- an O2 sensor log from a "miss- calibrated" C-14, coupled with the same bike "correctly calibrated" would be ideal. Now if we could only find someone with an O2 sensor on a C-14 that can collect that data and likes to tinker..... Let me think, who could that be..... ::)
:rotflmao:
Brian
Hahahahahaha.....it actually took me a second to catch on here...duh...lol.
We'll see...lol. I was just digging through all the closets tonight trying to locate all of my Firstgear long underwear and my heated vest, etc. It's starting to cool off here and everybody is all but putting their bikes away, and here I am planning my riding for the next two months like it's the start of spring already...lol.
I may do some more tuning (and tinkering) this fall if I have time.
Rem :o
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Well, the lack of hard data is almost data in itself isn't it?
I have to agree with the two of you until I experience something different. Maybe I'll try to mis-adjust mine both ways to see if I can recreate ....anything?
I'll disconnect the battery and reconnect power, then with an improvised throttle lock I'll try the procedure with an approximately 25% open throttle as the closed position.
test results..
then regardless of results
repeat the procedure but use 3/4s open as WOT
and test results..
..just not today...maybe tomorrow. Please someone feel free to beat me to it. :finger_fing11:
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Hahahahahaha.....it actually took me a second to catch on here...duh...lol.
We'll see...lol. I was just digging through all the closets tonight trying to locate all of my Firstgear long underwear and my heated vest, etc. It's starting to cool off here and everybody is all but putting their bikes away, and here I am planning my riding for the next two months like it's the start of spring already...lol.
I may do some more tuning (and tinkering) this fall if I have time.
Rem :o
Cheers mate! I've been riding year round for 5 years, this coming winter (can take it's time coming) will be my second winter on the concours... Don't miss the days of no wind protection at all lol
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Cheers mate! I've been riding year round for 5 years, this coming winter (can take it's time coming) will be my second winter on the concours... Don't miss the days of no wind protection at all lol
Dead Mans Pass!! I love winter riding ;D
(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo2/SFCMAIN/CHETMAINWARING/Feb%202014%20ID%20ADV%20Scout%20Trip/CBM_0127.jpg) (http://s356.photobucket.com/user/SFCMAIN/media/CHETMAINWARING/Feb%202014%20ID%20ADV%20Scout%20Trip/CBM_0127.jpg.html)
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Brian, why the hesitation? NOT calling you out, but, if nothing happens, why not do it? Genuine question? Yes, genuine. There are those who think the moon landing was actually filmed in a studio set. Prove or disprove (at least to your satisfaction) by action and not theory. I wish I still had my C14 to do the procedure myself. I am super curious (and naturally want to think I stumbled on something unique, a first of sorts). For a friend if nothing else, just do it, please?
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Dead Mans Pass!! I love winter riding ;D
(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo2/SFCMAIN/CHETMAINWARING/Feb%202014%20ID%20ADV%20Scout%20Trip/CBM_0127.jpg) (http://s356.photobucket.com/user/SFCMAIN/media/CHETMAINWARING/Feb%202014%20ID%20ADV%20Scout%20Trip/CBM_0127.jpg.html)
What tyres are you using on those bikes? Do you have studs in them?
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What tyres are you using on those bikes? Do you have studs in them?
...and who is your buddy back there in the distance..and who is taking the picture...questions, questions, enquiring minds etc etc.
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We were using the Aerostitch screw in studs, I was on the over pass taking the pics (OMG, just nasty plowing through the chunked up snow), buddy was taking pictures. Tires were knobbies of a variety, 2 F800GSs and a 1200GSA. Yes, I will do this again, studs made travel at 45ish feel planted and confident. Lesson learned? Once you are on clear pavement, stop and pull the studs, they will eventually migrate into the tire/tube and give you a flat. I learned that the hard way 2 days prior as I wanted to do a run to see how it would impact traction on a non icy surface, other than a really cool sound I felt safe at highway speeds and noticed no loss of traction at these speeds.
Brian, I was ballsy enough to do the studs, the LEAST you could do??
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Wow Chet, I can see my [not frolicking] with this thing is really tasking you. Hey, if it really does mean something to you, I will do it and report my results.
But to directly answer your question, I do not believe it works and therefore am not interested in it enough to spend any time on it. There are thousands, maybe millions of things I simply do not believe 1) actually are as they are perceived to be ('Never take the key out of the ignition, it is bad ju-ju') or are not caused by what is thought to cause them ('Kill the virgin, grow the corn'). The world has to make sense to me and this 'hidden calibration' technique does not on quite a few levels and for several reasons, all mentioned earlier in the thread.
Now, that said, if you want me to give it a shot (an honest shot), no problem. It won't take long and will be, I believe, quite obvious if it does recalibrate the throttle. And of course if it does work, I will be a convert forever, go to the meetings and everything and praise the gods of throttle position sensors for all time. :-) Lemme see if I can sneak out later and tweak my bike (Easy Boys!).
Brian
Brian, why the hesitation? NOT calling you out, but, if nothing happens, why not do it? Genuine question? Yes, genuine. There are those who think the moon landing was actually filmed in a studio set. Prove or disprove (at least to your satisfaction) by action and not theory. I wish I still had my C14 to do the procedure myself. I am super curious (and naturally want to think I stumbled on something unique, a first of sorts). For a friend if nothing else, just do it, please?
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Dead Mans Pass!! I love winter riding ;D
(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo2/SFCMAIN/CHETMAINWARING/Feb%202014%20ID%20ADV%20Scout%20Trip/CBM_0127.jpg) (http://s356.photobucket.com/user/SFCMAIN/media/CHETMAINWARING/Feb%202014%20ID%20ADV%20Scout%20Trip/CBM_0127.jpg.html)
I ride all year round even in Colorado but not on roads with ice or snow. Studs must make a huge difference because without them, this is just nuts.
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Tweak away, yes, I am that curious.
I ride all year round even in Colorado but not on roads with ice or snow. Studs must make a huge difference because without them, this is just nuts.
On the return trip we intended to beat the sunset, didn't happen, we watched the temp gauge hover at 33, just as the sun was setting the flurries started in, still at 33. Sun goes down, no good spot to pull off safely (yes, I said safely). The third member of our party had headed west to meet up with his lady friend. Somehow we allowed him to leave with the cordless driver we used for the stud insertion and removal. Yes, we were as the saying goes, screwed, without the benefit of a reach around. Slowed down to a safe (er) speed, repeated the words ride relaxed, it's just like mud, (a million times). It started snowing for real, hands got cold from wiping the snow off of my visor (Hippo hands work great with plain old dry gloves and the grip warmers on). We stopped at an overpass (no snow, brakes worked there) to put on dry, insulated gloves. Continued on. The worst part? Getting passed by a truck doing 45ish, wind blast pushed me several feet sideways. Needless to say I was scared stiff and frozen with fear. No pun intended... Made it through the pass, temps got to 35, felt almost balmy as the sweat started thawing. Dennys never looked so good. Moral of the story? I don't have one, maybe Brian can come up with something witty after he gives the procedure a try?
FWIW, true story.
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screwed, without the benefit of a reach around.
stud insertion and removal.
The third member
old dry gloves and the grip warmers
Do I need to go back and find more? 8)
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screwed, without the benefit of a reach around.
stud insertion and removal.
The third member
old dry gloves and the grip warmers
Do I need to go back and find more? 8)
Must recalibrate my mind. Do I turn myself on, twist my throttle twice, turn myself off, and then rev my motor? 8)
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And you must do it with one eye shut.. Preferably after at least two shots of Vodka.
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Must recalibrate my mind. Do I turn myself on, twist my throttle twice, turn myself off, and then rev my motor? 8)
Best if your significant other does it for you ::)
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Best if your significant other does it for you ::)
Well, she has the diagnostic equipment I don't, so that may be the way to go, kinda like getting "flashed", if ya get my drift ;)
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Now lets say you have an un-calibrated system. For this demo we'll use TPS 25% TPS 100% (This is what I did in the video, by setting the throttle lock to ~25% and running the calibration.) Now the ECU and TPS are mismatched. The ECU see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 200CC's of fuel in.
[CHART 3]
ECU 0% - 1.46V - 200CC
ECU 25% - 2.04V - 275CC
ECU 50% - 2.62V - 350CC
ECU 75% - 3.20V - 425CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC
The ECU is now programmed to see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 200CC's of fuel in. Because it's a simple computer, it cannot detect a negative percentage, so when you close the ACTUAL THROTTLE, the ECU is still putting out it's current minimum amount of fuel set for TPS 25%, because according to the ECU's calibrated programming, TPS 25% = ECU 0% Thus when you close the throttle completely, and the ECU is still putting out TPS 25% of fuel, but the Throttle is a 0%, you run into an extremely rich condition, thus making the engine run rough and inefficient.
[CHART 4]
Correct
Fuel CC
TPS 0% = 0.68V 100CC ECU OUT OF RANGE - 200CC - RICH CONDITION (HESITATION OCCURS HERE due to incomplete combustion)
TPS 25% = 1.46V 200CC ECU 0% - 1.46V - 200CC - Correct A/F Mixture (SPIKE IN RPMs OCCURS HERE)
TPS 50% = 2.23V 300CC ECU 33% - 2.23V - 232CC - Lean condition, less power, requiring slightly more throttle, using more fuel to maintain speed
TPS 75% = 3.01V 400CC ECU 67% - 3.01V - 364CC - Less lean condition, but still down on power, requiring slightly more throttle so on...
TPS 100%= 3.78V 500CC ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC - Proper A/F mixture
Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking... I'm not an engineer.
Stephen, it took me a while but I think that I found the mistake in your logic. I marked the sentence that leads to the mistake. As one can see from Chart 3, the ECU is not programmed to
"see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS voltage is 1.46V"
but instead, the ECU is programmed to
"see that when the TPS voltage is 1.46V, the throttle is fully closed" --> although in our example it isn't because we stopped it from closing by using a Go-Cruise.
Hence, any voltage below the 1.46 threshold will be seen by the ECU still as 0% throttle opening (because it cannot deal with negative %) and will be injecting the fuel for that throttle opening, which as Rembrandt pointed out, is idle. Therefore, although the throttle is slightly open (between 0% and 20%), the ECU thinks that it's fully closed and it injects too little (just enough for idle) --> lean condition. In fact, if the 100% throttle opening is correctly calibrated, the bike will run lean up until that point, all over the throttle opening range.
I added a table below, and also an example in which the WOT has been incorrectly calibrated. In particular, a case in which at the time of calibrating the full open throttle, the throttle was opened only to 80%, so the ECU learns that 4V mean 100% throttle opening. The bike will then run rich.
For my table, I assumed that the voltages go from 0V at closed throttle, to 5V at wide open throttle. I also assumed that at closed throttle the engine needs 1 cm³ of fuel (to keep it at idle), and at WOT it needs 20 cm³.
BTW, I am an engineer, but that's no guarantee, is it? ;D
Regarding Rembrandt's measurements, of course the voltages stay the same. It's not important the voltages that the ECU sees, what's important is how it converts them to throttle opening.
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I'm surprised this isn't in the service manual or owner's manual. My car (Chrysler 300c) requires the same procedure when replacing a battery, and it's also part of "re-setting" the adaptive transmission (you pull a specific fuse, replace it, do the TPS re-set, and it starts fresh instead of granny shifting all the time).
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bump.
After analysing the theory behind it, I gave a try to this procedure. Sure enough, I noticed a few things:
- idle went down by about 150 rpm. I like it at 1150 and it went down to 1000. Same temperature, etc. It just went down.
- hesitation is gone. Period. I have been fighting this phenomenon since day 1 and been nothing but frustrated. When I first got the bike I was amazed at how tame it was, but after a while I wanted a 1352 cc engine (which I paid for), not a 600 cc. So flies out, PCV in. Power and torque were restored, specially under 4000 rpm, but the hesitation (coughing) continued. That off-on throttle counter-explosion that bothered me every single time. Next I added a throttle tamer. Better, but absolutely still there. It just got easier to avoid it by being gentle, but I don't like being gentle when I'm chasing (or, more often than not, being chased by) my friends in their bikes. Now it's solved. I just can't get her to do it. It's great.
- I have to sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.
Me happy.
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<snip>
- I have sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.
Me happy.
LOL! I had the same thought when I went riding after I did this.
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Stephen, it took me a while but I think that I found the mistake in your logic. I marked the sentence that leads to the mistake. As one can see from Chart 3, the ECU is not programmed to
"see that when the throttle is fully closed, the TPS voltage is 1.46V"
but instead, the ECU is programmed to
"see that when the TPS voltage is 1.46V, the throttle is fully closed" --> although in our example it isn't because we stopped it from closing by using a Go-Cruise.
Hence, any voltage below the 1.46 threshold will be seen by the ECU still as 0% throttle opening (because it cannot deal with negative %) and will be injecting the fuel for that throttle opening, which as Rembrandt pointed out, is idle. Therefore, although the throttle is slightly open (between 0% and 20%), the ECU thinks that it's fully closed and it injects too little (just enough for idle) --> lean condition. In fact, if the 100% throttle opening is correctly calibrated, the bike will run lean up until that point, all over the throttle opening range.
I added a table below, and also an example in which the WOT has been incorrectly calibrated. In particular, a case in which at the time of calibrating the full open throttle, the throttle was opened only to 80%, so the ECU learns that 4V mean 100% throttle opening. The bike will then run rich.
For my table, I assumed that the voltages go from 0V at closed throttle, to 5V at wide open throttle. I also assumed that at closed throttle the engine needs 1 cm³ of fuel (to keep it at idle), and at WOT it needs 20 cm³.
BTW, I am an engineer, but that's no guarantee, is it? ;D
Regarding Rembrandt's measurements, of course the voltages stay the same. It's not important the voltages that the ECU sees, what's important is how it converts them to throttle opening.
Re-read this and it makes sense. Ill blame the almost 2 hours I had into making that chart and my brain was starting to hurt lol. I will update it as to not pollute the interwebz with bad info.
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Below is the updated chart 3 and 4 with updated explanation between each.
Finally had a chance to read through everything... Had a 200 mile round trip to Hood River for work yesterday.
Anyways, OK...
So Rembrandt, you have the KDS equipment. Good to know, and if you don't mind, I'm going to pick apart the test procedure a bit, and someone PLEASE tell me if my thinking on this is wrong. I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but I am going to break this down Barney style to make sure we're working on common assumptions/ facts (if they are)
THE GLOWING LINES ARE THING'S I AM NOT 100% SURE ON. I WILL CHANGE/ UNGLOW THEM UPON CONFIRMATION.
The TPS, much like a volume knob on a guitar/ computer speakers/ etc, reads from 0%, to 100% (unless you are a kid in a garage band, then it goes to 11...).
TPS: (25-75% values determined with an interpolation calculator, for demonstration purposes only, these are NOT hard tested values. 0 and 100% values are tested per Rembrant using KDS above, may vary slightly between bikes)
[CHART 1] [THESE VALUES NEVER CHANGE EVER!]
TPS 0% = 0.68V
TPS 25% = 1.46V
TPS 50% = 2.23V
TPS 75% = 3.01V
TPS 100%= 3.78V
These TPS numbers represent 0% throttle opening, and 100% throttle opening. These Voltage numbers represent to the ECU how open the butterflies are. For the engine to run properly, the engineers have determined that it needs a certain air/ fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. The ECU reads the voltage from the TPS, and interpolates the Min/ Max voltages into percentages. The ECU then takes this percentage, and tells the injectors to spray in the appropriate amount of fuel for that percentage of the throttle being open. The amount of fuel per volt is (from my understanding) hard-programmed into the ECU, and cannot be changed without flashing the ECU. (At this point it goes from 'TPS throttle 0%', to the 'ECU throttle 0%' based on the voltage that the ECU is reading as 0%)
Now for all intensive purposes, lets say that the ECU tells the injectors to spray the following amounts of fuel per Volts: (FUEL CC's ARE MADE UP NUMBERS IN MY HEAD FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY!!!)
[CHART 2] [THESE VOLTAGES CAN CHANGE BASED ON THE CALIBRATION TO THE ECU. THE CC'S PER ECU PERCENTAGE NEVER CHANGES! (<<Edited to be correct info)
ECU 0% - 0.68V - 100CC
ECU 25% - 1.46V - 200CC
ECU 50% - 2.23V - 300CC
ECU 75% - 3.01V - 400CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC
Now lets say you have an un-calibrated system. For this demo we'll use TPS 25% TPS 100% (This is what I did in the video, by setting the throttle lock to ~25% and running the calibration.) Now the ECU and TPS are mismatched. The ECU see that when the throttle is fully closed (at idle), the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, therefore it needs to spray 100CC's of fuel in. (We know that in reality this is not the case, and that will be explained below)
[CHART 3]
ECU 0% - 1.46V - 100CC
ECU 25% - 2.04V - 200CC
ECU 50% - 2.62V - 300CC
ECU 75% - 3.20V - 400CC
ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC
The ECU is now programmed to see that when the throttle is fully closed (at idle), the TPS Voltage is 1.46V, Therefore it needs to spray 100CC's of fuel in. Because it's a simple computer, it cannot detect a negative percentage. When you close the throttle completely, the ECU is putting out it's current amount of fuel for idle, set for TPS 25% (1.46V - 100CC), because according to the ECU's calibrated programming, TPS 25% = ECU 0%. Remember, the ECU cannot read negative percentages, so if ECU 0% (idle) is 1.46V, when you go below that (to TPS 0%, TRUE idle) it still sprays 100CC's of fuel. Now the bike is idling great. But as you open the throttle between TPS 0% and 25, it will still be spraying it's minimum 100CC's of fuel. That is not NEARLY enough to satisfy the thirst of the cylinders when that much air is going in. This costs lots of power, and can cause the bike to hickup, or even die.
[CHART 4]
Correct
Fuel CC
TPS 0% = 0.68V 100CC ECU OUT OF RANGE - 100CC - LEAN CONDITION (HESITATION OCCURS HERE due to insufficiant combustion)
TPS 25% = 1.46V 200CC ECU 0% - 1.46V - 100CC - A/F Mixture starts to finally increase (SPIKE IN RPMs OCCURS HERE)
TPS 50% = 2.23V 300CC ECU 33% - 2.23V - 232CC - Lean condition, less power, requiring slightly more throttle, using more fuel to maintain speed
TPS 75% = 3.01V 400CC ECU 67% - 3.01V - 364CC - Less lean condition, but still down on power, requiring slightly more throttle so on...
TPS 100%= 3.78V 500CC ECU 100% - 3.78V - 500CC - Proper A/F mixture
By properly calibrating the system, the ECU is reading the correct butterfly opening, therefore is putting the correct amount of fuel in.
Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking... I'm not an engineer.
[EDITED 23SEP2014 to have updated numbers and explanation regarding CHART 3 and 4]
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bump.
After analysing the the theory behind it, I gave a try to this procedure. Sure enough, I noticed a few things:
- idle went down by about 150 rpm. I like it at 1150 and it went down to 1000. Same temperature, etc. It just went down.
- hesitation is gone. Period. I have been fighting this phenomenon since day 1 and been nothing but frustrated. When I first got the bike I was amazed at how tame it was, but after a while I wanted a 1352 cc engine (which I paid for), not a 600 cc. So flies out, PCV in. Power and torque were restored, specially under 4000 rpm, but the hesitation (coughing) continued. That off-on throttle counter-explosion that bothered me every single time. Next I added a throttle tamer. Better, but absolutely still there. It just got easier to avoid it by being gentle, but I don't like being gentle when I'm chasing (or, more often than not, being chased) by my friends in their bikes. Now it's solved. I just can't get her to do it. It's great.
- I have sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.
Me happy.
Nice!!!! :)
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Well, I guess if everyone is doing it, I might as well too..
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Well, I guess if everyone is doing it, I might as well too..
Brian said he was going to try it, but I don't remember ever seeing a report. I tried it and it did drop the idle down a little, but I never had any problems per se, before the recalibration.
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<snip>
but I never had any problems per se, before the recalibration.
Then you probably wont notice a difference. This seems to only help bikes that have a really choppy or hesitant throttle.
That said, It's mechanical and electronic components working together. In a perfect wprld, these would be completely set from the factory, but there's no exact number. Some throttles will be at .68V, some may be at .70V at idle. I ASSUME (read; Ass-u-me) that at the factory they program the ECU to read .68V (or whatever the actual number is) as closed/ Idle, and if there's any variance from that, thats where the issues will start. But some bikes naturally are exactly dead on... I could be COMPLETELY wrong on that tho... and Probably am.
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Yep, the only change I saw was the idle drop, I mentioned. Realized that trying the technique wouldn't hurt anything, and if something had been off, it may have even been corrected. The 30 seconds spent was ok for me. Who knows, it could have added 20HP if done on the third Thursday of the Month at 11:58PM. Could have been another secret mother Kawi was hiding... ;D ;D
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I'm not having any issues with my bike except that it's too fast.
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I'm not having any issues with my bike except that it's too fast.
Just pull two sparkplug wires off the plugs, and too fast problem will be solved
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...or repaint it.
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...or repaint it.
More expensive than the plug wires. ;D tp
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Do you know how hard it is to get to the plugs and wires?
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Do you know how hard it is to get to the plugs and wires?
You have to remove the tupperware to get to the plugs, so I guess, go ahead and paint.
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Yep, I did say that and I even thought of a method to sort of have the throttle end up in the same place. I just have not gotten to it yet- busy as hell with getting ready for winter, family issues (all good, just time consuming) and dealing with a [new to me] vehicle that is throwing problems at me faster than I can throw them back. But as I said, I will try this calibration thing- as my bike runs well now, I really can only look for poorer running but that too would be evidence.
There is another gentleman out there who has O2 sensors on his bike and he (I do not.... yet) and he would the the ideal candidate to test out this idea as he can produce data as a result. If the throttle really does recalibrate, he should note the mixture changes immediately. Further, he should be able to make them both more lean and then more rich at will simply by hedging the throttle position information in the ECU one way and then the other. But I will not call him out on this.... :-)
Brian
Brian said he was going to try it, but I don't remember ever seeing a report. I tried it and it did drop the idle down a little, but I never had any problems per se, before the recalibration.
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Then you probably wont notice a difference. This seems to only help bikes that have a really choppy or hesitant throttle.
That said, It's mechanical and electronic components working together. In a perfect wprld, these would be completely set from the factory, but there's no exact number. Some throttles will be at .68V, some may be at .70V at idle. I ASSUME (read; Ass-u-me) that at the factory they program the ECU to read .68V (or whatever the actual number is) as closed/ Idle, and if there's any variance from that, thats where the issues will start. But some bikes naturally are exactly dead on... I could be COMPLETELY wrong on that tho... and Probably am.
Actually, the TPS numbers are set in the ECU, and the TPS is set mechanically on the side of the throttlebodies. The TPS actually has nothing to do with the idle of the engine. The idle is set by the screw adjuster that sets where the throttle plates stop. The ECU then controls the amount of fuel for the idle speed using the IAP map (Idle Air Pressure). Unlike the TPS fuel maps, the IAP map is controlled by RPM and pressure differential across the throttle plates. So, when you adjust the idle cable/screw, you're adjusting the throttle plates, which changes the air flow across them....thus changing the pressure differential.
This is what is taking place from closed throttle to approximately 10% throttle, so the TPS is not utilized until the throttle is twisted 10% open.
See, the fuel mapping in these ECU's is a little more crude than most people realize. The changes the ECU can make are not infinite. The ECU only adjusts TPS fueling approximately every 7% of throttle rotation. This is why there is an IAP map in the first place to control the idle. If the ECU tried to use the TPS map to control idle, it would be far too crude, and a quarter turn on the adjuster might not do anything....a full turn on the adjuster might not do anything.
So, if that isn't too confusing, it's easy to see why the closed throttle TPS voltage variances are really irrelevant with regards to idle. As I said earlier...several factors are going to effect that voltage...throttle cables, throttle plate linkages/pivots, throttlebody cleanliness, etc. When I checked mine, several times, the closed throttle TPS voltage varied between .66v and .69v, and it made no changes in the idle. As I said above, the ECU doesn't care what that voltage is until the throttle is 10% open or more.
And besides, 0.03v changes in TPS voltages aren't really going to change anything, because the ECU is looking for bigger differences.
Clear as mud?...lol,
Rem
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Well, I guess if everyone is doing it, I might as well too..
LOL!
I have just been watching with interest. I have no such hesitation or issues on my 2011 C14, so I don't want to press my luck. But I will be sure to try this voodoo if such issues arise.
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There is another gentleman out there who has O2 sensors on his bike and he (I do not.... yet) and he would the the ideal candidate to test out this idea as he can produce data as a result. If the throttle really does recalibrate, he should note the mixture changes immediately. Further, he should be able to make them both more lean and then more rich at will simply by hedging the throttle position information in the ECU one way and then the other. But I will not call him out on this.... :-)
Brian
If you hook me up with some clam chowdah, then I'll do some testing for ya...lol.
Another thing to consider that I don't think has been mentioned. If you incorrectly calibrated a TPS....like what was done earlier, so that 25% of throttle was actually set to zero, and 100% was still 100%, you would effectively create a very quick turn throttle...I'm not going to ge my protractor out....lol, but lets say it would go from being a 1/4 turn throttle to being a 1/5 turn throttle, and I didn't see that in the video....
Just something to ponder eh?...
Rem...
Over here thinkin' and stuff :o :o :o
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Serious question, what is the other side saying in regards this new, apparently effective, technique?
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:popcorn:
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bump.
After analysing the theory behind it, I gave a try to this procedure. Sure enough, I noticed a few things:
- idle went down by about 150 rpm. I like it at 1150 and it went down to 1000. Same temperature, etc. It just went down.
- hesitation is gone. Period. I have been fighting this phenomenon since day 1 and been nothing but frustrated. When I first got the bike I was amazed at how tame it was, but after a while I wanted a 1352 cc engine (which I paid for), not a 600 cc. So flies out, PCV in. Power and torque were restored, specially under 4000 rpm, but the hesitation (coughing) continued. That off-on throttle counter-explosion that bothered me every single time. Next I added a throttle tamer. Better, but absolutely still there. It just got easier to avoid it by being gentle, but I don't like being gentle when I'm chasing (or, more often than not, being chased by) my friends in their bikes. Now it's solved. I just can't get her to do it. It's great.
- I have to sell this bike. I will kill myself. I'm so happy with how the engine responds, specially when I see small gaps in traffic that I usually gave up on because of the stupid hesitation. Now I just take them, because the bikes shoots forward every time I touch the gas. It's exhilarating.
Me happy.
Martin, did you perform the procedure on your bike after it was warmed up or before?
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Serious question, what is the other side saying in regards this new, apparently effective, technique?
Which other side?
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Yeah, what Jim said.... who is, or who are the 'other side'? Did we pick teams or something?
I thought it was just people talking about how a mechanism might or might not work on a C-14. ??
Brian
Serious question, what is the other side saying in regards this new, apparently effective, technique?
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I know just the place- best chodah in the state. They use cream and butter rather than milk and [I don't even want to think about the butter replacement]. Thick, outstanding clam chowdah. The best clam cakes too- no spitting shell when eating them. So you're on.....
Just a thought but here is what I would LOVE to see: show a short plot of the A/F mixture with your bike running at, say, 2,500 RPM as it does normally. The 'calibrate' the throttle but set it so closed is really 10% open. Then again show the A/F mixture at the same speed and load if possible; it should be very significantly off. It would be even better if you could find out what cells you are using in the ECU for these running parameters but I don't know if that is available or not. But I do believe you can capture throttle position, engine speed, and mixture, right? If so, that alone will show a drastically 'wrong' setting if you can recalibrate the throttle.
Brian
If you hook me up with some clam chowdah, then I'll do some testing for ya...lol.
Another thing to consider that I don't think has been mentioned. If you incorrectly calibrated a TPS....like what was done earlier, so that 25% of throttle was actually set to zero, and 100% was still 100%, you would effectively create a very quick turn throttle...I'm not going to ge my protractor out....lol, but lets say it would go from being a 1/4 turn throttle to being a 1/5 turn throttle, and I didn't see that in the video....
Just something to ponder eh?...
Rem...
Over here thinkin' and stuff :o :o :o
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Yeah, what Jim said.... who is, or who are the 'other side'? Did we pick teams or something?
I thought it was just people talking about how a mechanism might or might not work on a C-14. ??
Brian
Brian is correct.. Our brother site in the UK has picked up on this as well. Bully for them! (standard disclaimer: I'm not advocating this witchcraft in TPS recalibration, however it does appear to be benign and the only possible injury that may occur is a wrist sprain. Of course I do advocate doing this in the privacy of your garage with no one watching.)
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Brian is correct.. Our brother site in the UK has picked up on this as well. Bully for them!
Probably cause I posted it up on the Face-Space. I know there were a couple UK guys that chimed in on that thread going bonkers cause it worked.
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Actually, the TPS numbers are set in the ECU, and the TPS is set mechanically on the side of the throttlebodies. The TPS actually has nothing to do with the idle of the engine. The idle is set by the screw adjuster that sets where the throttle plates stop. The ECU then controls the amount of fuel for the idle speed using the IAP map (Idle Air Pressure). Unlike the TPS fuel maps, the IAP map is controlled by RPM and pressure differential across the throttle plates. So, when you adjust the idle cable/screw, you're adjusting the throttle plates, which changes the air flow across them....thus changing the pressure differential.
This is what is taking place from closed throttle to approximately 10% throttle, so the TPS is not utilized until the throttle is twisted 10% open.
See, the fuel mapping in these ECU's is a little more crude than most people realize. The changes the ECU can make are not infinite. The ECU only adjusts TPS fueling approximately every 7% of throttle rotation. This is why there is an IAP map in the first place to control the idle. If the ECU tried to use the TPS map to control idle, it would be far too crude, and a quarter turn on the adjuster might not do anything....a full turn on the adjuster might not do anything.
So, if that isn't too confusing, it's easy to see why the closed throttle TPS voltage variances are really irrelevant with regards to idle. As I said earlier...several factors are going to effect that voltage...throttle cables, throttle plate linkages/pivots, throttlebody cleanliness, etc. When I checked mine, several times, the closed throttle TPS voltage varied between .66v and .69v, and it made no changes in the idle. As I said above, the ECU doesn't care what that voltage is until the throttle is 10% open or more.
And besides, 0.03v changes in TPS voltages aren't really going to change anything, because the ECU is looking for bigger differences.
Clear as mud?...lol,
Rem
Ok, well now I'm really confused as to why this works... I know your above post has been stated before earlier in this thread, but that one made sense to me. (maybe cause I just had my coffee...) Looks like I need to update the chart... Again...
Unless... Unless... Maybe by doing this calibration, the ECU knows better where the throttle is, so it can change maps smoother?
EDIT: I love this thread and all the information being tossed around... I'm learning a ton and it's making me really think.
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Bingo! That is my interest in its entirety- I want to know what is going on so I understand how it works (the ECU and the possibility of calibration). I do not care about the running characteristics and how they change, at least not yet, but I have to understand how this calibration function, well, functions. That is why I gave the reasons I did for thinking it does not actually work- not because I really care if it does work or not, and not to argue with anyone but according to my experience (and I have written a lot of commercial machine code and a lot of 'calibration' procedures), common sense and understanding of how things are done according to convention, this would be something between a bad idea and a disaster for any manufacturer to have machinery in the field that owners could make such fundamental adjustments to without sufficient barriers.
And that is why I specifically recommended [the guy I will not mention again] do some specific tests because they will yield data in the form of air / fuel ratios and especially, any changes in them. Things like 'it runs a bit better' are not really what I look for in 'definitive'.
Remember, 'Kill the virgin, grow the corn' worked for millennia because everyone could clearly see that it worked. And over and over again too boot.
Brian
<snip>
EDIT: I love this thread and all the information being tossed around... I'm learning a ton and it's making me really think.
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Which other side?
I shoulda said "Sides", as in COG or other forums.
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I shoulda said "Sides", as in COG or other forums.
I posted it in the other forum, guys have been having good luck with it. All credit is being given, and it appears that all of the actual research is being done here (which is good cause the notes all flow rather than being split in 2 places). Once we have a definitive "Why" I will post that in the thread on the COG forum too. (once again, giving credit where credit is due).
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No credit required, I have all I need in knowing what I know. I got so much help from this forum (old time one, and current) I like knowing I gave something new and unique back and it was just on a hunch.
Like Brian and others, I am curious as to how this isn't part of any manual. Maybe I should rush out and get a patent? ;) JK of course.
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Not to worry Chet, all the credit for all of.... this..... is yours! ;D Figure out the secret code to 1) activate power reverse and even better 2) activate the supercharger and you could be the next president of the US of A! Which no sane person would want to be but that is another matter. ;)
But I just have that inherent need to know how and why something works, not just that it does. And if this sequence does in fact do anything (and I am not saying it does not, just need to see some data) then I will have to know if this is a built- in feature or some type of flaw in the ECU that just happens to live on in the software. Just as an example, perhaps this is a calibration feature that was supposed to be used by the mfg. and whatever ends the function is either not working or not present.
I think I have a favor or two left with Kawasaki and if this ends up being an open loop, I will try and pursue this one with them. I still cannot imagine for the life of me why they would purposely put in anything like this and not document it as it is absolutely going to cause problems that dealers cannot readily fix due to its being undocumentated.
Brian
No credit required, I have all I need in knowing what I know. I got so much help from this forum (old time one, and current) I like knowing I gave something new and unique back and it was just on a hunch.
Like Brian and others, I am curious as to how this isn't part of any manual. Maybe I should rush out and get a patent? ;) JK of course.
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OK, I read to about p5, then got tired and figure I'd jump in with something stupid - if it's already been discussed, please disregard...
I've replaced a fair amount of TPS sensors in automotive applications over the years. I've never seen the adjustment point be from zero to 5v, or 0 closed, 5v open. Usually the closed position is around .6 to .8v . TPS's can also be adjusted to trick the ecu abit, typically by adjusting them to the higher side of the spec. This will typically help throttle response, raise auto trans shift points, etc.
I think the difference between auto applications and this ( a more rudimentary system) is that current auto stuff has tps's and also pedal position sensors, so that's comparing the 2 sensors to see that the throttle is doing what the input is calling for . In the case of the c-14 with throttle cables you have a manual input and the TPS just converts that to information for the ECU. I haven't looked at the c-14 TPS, but if it's non - adjustable then to me it would require calibration electronically. Improper calibration would be the same as an adjustable TPS being improperly adjusted during initial installation. Steve
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I haven't looked at the c-14 TPS, but if it's non - adjustable then to me it would require calibration electronically. Improper calibration would be the same as an adjustable TPS being improperly adjusted during initial installation. Steve
Steve, the factory TPS is adjustable...the holes are slotted. As Brian mentioned earlier, it would be set at the factory, and paint marked. They would set it so the correct voltage is indicated at WOT/100%, and then closed throttle or 0% would fall somewhere within the correct range for the ECU to see.
And that is why I specifically recommended [the guy I will not mention again] do some specific tests because they will yield data in the form of air / fuel ratios and especially, any changes in them. Things like 'it runs a bit better' are not really what I look for in 'definitive'.
Brian
Haha...
Unfortunately, I'm still having a little bit of a hard time with all of this and I'm not sure I can do any further testing. I've already shown that the ECU is seeing the same TPS voltages before and after TPS calibrating, and that has sort of been debunked already...lol.
I'm not sure this is going to make any sense or not, but I'm still finding this all very confusing as to how it is supposed to work....or furthermore, how the TPS would get out of calibration in the first place?
As mentioned previously...this calibration apparently only works on bikes that have a "choppy" or "hesitant" throttle. The procedure appears to do nothing on bikes that are already working fine (including my own 2010 C14). See, this is the part I have a problem with....why does it do nothing with bikes that are already working fine? If a calibration procedure will "correct" mistakes, then the same procedure performed in reverse (sort of) would un-correct the throttle, and cause a problem, no?
So, to add to that....what exactly is the trigger to put the bike/ECU into TPS calibration mode? Turning the ignition on? I don't think so. Turning the throttle twice and then turning the ignition off? Or, is the first twist of the throttle the trigger and then the second twist is the calibration?
In knowing what the ECU does with the TPS feedback, it's hard for me to grasp why/what would change to make the bike hesitate or become choppy? Also, in knowing that the TPS feedback does not effect the engine idle, why are people seeing changes in engine idle with this TPS calibration?
Why are there guys on the COG forum experiencing smoother shifting transmissions after performing this TPS calibration?
Somebody, somewhere has a lot of explaining to do...lol.
Hey BDF, I'm not sure how I'd even test this with my ECU/Logbox/wbO2 set-up....suggestions?...lol.
Rem :o
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And the UK forum...
Mass hysteria possibly? Possibly the act of moving the throttle cables does something? Haven't had a chance to try it on mine yet and probably won't until Sunday.
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OK, maybe it's all snake oil - but this IS the proceedure BMW uses. When I saw this thread on the other site I posted that it's the same as my 1200lt uses for calibration. Then I come here and see that SOP posted that it's the same for the GS, so some ecu's use this system and apparently based on results, kaw does too>
Rem - you mention why doesn't this recalibration mess up a good running bike - that seems simple to my mind, because when you sweep the tps on an already calibrated bike you haven't changed anything. So do an experiment like to OP did - purposely do a sweep with the TPS not going to base idle, and mess up the calibration on a properly calibrated bike. If things change, then you have to agree that there is truth to the system needing this sweep calibration.
One last point - I have been told that toyota throttle sensors have 2 hall effect sensors in each unit. (there are 2 sensors, but I cant swear they're hall effect, it just seems like a pot to me) The sensors work to monitor each other. if they get out of sync for 2 seconds or more, it fires a fault code. Well, it's supposed to anyway. I wonder if the kaw TPS is like that - does it have 2 outputs to the ECU? Steve
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Rem - you mention why doesn't this recalibration mess up a good running bike - that seems simple to my mind, because when you sweep the tps on an already calibrated bike you haven't changed anything. So do an experiment like to OP did - purposely do a sweep with the TPS not going to base idle, and mess up the calibration on a properly calibrated bike. If things change, then you have to agree that there is truth to the system needing this sweep calibration.
One last point - I have been told that toyota throttle sensors have 2 hall effect sensors in each unit. (there are 2 sensors, but I cant swear they're hall effect, it just seems like a pot to me) The sensors work to monitor each other. if they get out of sync for 2 seconds or more, it fires a fault code. Well, it's supposed to anyway. I wonder if the kaw TPS is like that - does it have 2 outputs to the ECU? Steve
Hey Steve,
I've already tried it on my own C14, several different ways, and I couldn't cause any changes. This is what I meant when I asked why doesn't it cause a problem on a good working C14?
I believe the TPS has only one input (5v) and one output (I forget the full range, but it's like 0.5v-4.0v). The ECU will throw an error code (#11) if the TPS gives a reading that is outside of the given full range.
I'm curious as anybody else is here and would like to know what works if it works, etc? I just need a little more info is all;).
Rem :o
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Will having adjusted the throttle cables or changed the throttle tube fit into the mix anywhere?
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Thinking alike...scary.
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Yes, absolutely: if it is indeed a calibration method, then it must be capable of miss- calibrating the system too. If it can only calibrate the system resulting in making it better, then that in and of itself speaks of 'magic' and would convince me that it does not work at all. Any / all adjustments (or calibrations) are capable of being in the right place as well as any number of incorrect places.
As to the shifting smoother thing.... well, I think that just proves the power of good suggestion, preconceived notions and finding the expected results. :-)
Well, as I understand this from Chet and others, the "calibration method" is to:
1) turn on ignition (but not start bike)
2) Open throttle fully
3) close throttle
4) open throttle fully
5) close throttle
6) turn off ignition
This apparently ends the procedure if I am following it correctly. Some people have mentioned opening / closing the throttle three (3) times rather than two.
What I think you can or will see on your O2 feedback is an altered mixture. Let's just suppose this does calibrate the throttle: that would mean if done incorrectly, it would miss- calibrate the throttle, right? Well, if you do the above things but go from 10% to 100% throttle, that should badly miss-calibrate the throttle settings, especially on the low end. If that happens, you should see your mixture change, lean I think, at low throttle settings. And then by again calibrating the throttle, the correct mixture should be restored, which your O2 sensor should show. At least that is how it seems like it would have to work to me.
You (Rembrant) and I have our own beliefs and they may be right or wrong but I <think> it is pretty easy to prove or disprove what this undocumented 'calibration' system is doing, or prove that it does nothing. Of course, I am saying it would be easy and asking you to do it so take my ideas with a grain of salt :-) I will also try this but will have to get the Power Commander software onto a new tablet to tie into my PC III or I will not be able to get the throttle to the same point twice (something like 10% from fully closed, but it has to be done two times). But we have all had our say, and I do not think there is any more room for logic or reasoning out whether this works or not and just move on to the collection of 30 seconds of data in two conditions ("calibrated" and "miss- calibrated"). At least good data collection would do it for me; I am sure some will debate this forever (hey- we're still figuring out the magic thingy that is KiPass, right? ;D ).
Brian
Steve, the factory TPS is adjustable...the holes are slotted. As Brian mentioned earlier, it would be set at the factory, and paint marked. They would set it so the correct voltage is indicated at WOT/100%, and then closed throttle or 0% would fall somewhere within the correct range for the ECU to see.
Haha...
Unfortunately, I'm still having a little bit of a hard time with all of this and I'm not sure I can do any further testing. I've already shown that the ECU is seeing the same TPS voltages before and after TPS calibrating, and that has sort of been debunked already...lol.
I'm not sure this is going to make any sense or not, but I'm still finding this all very confusing as to how it is supposed to work....or furthermore, how the TPS would get out of calibration in the first place?
As mentioned previously...this calibration apparently only works on bikes that have a "choppy" or "hesitant" throttle. The procedure appears to do nothing on bikes that are already working fine (including my own 2010 C14). See, this is the part I have a problem with....why does it do nothing with bikes that are already working fine? If a calibration procedure will "correct" mistakes, then the same procedure performed in reverse (sort of) would un-correct the throttle, and cause a problem, no?
So, to add to that....what exactly is the trigger to put the bike/ECU into TPS calibration mode? Turning the ignition on? I don't think so. Turning the throttle twice and then turning the ignition off? Or, is the first twist of the throttle the trigger and then the second twist is the calibration?
In knowing what the ECU does with the TPS feedback, it's hard for me to grasp why/what would change to make the bike hesitate or become choppy? Also, in knowing that the TPS feedback does not effect the engine idle, why are people seeing changes in engine idle with this TPS calibration?
Why are there guys on the COG forum experiencing smoother shifting transmissions after performing this TPS calibration?
Somebody, somewhere has a lot of explaining to do...lol.
Hey BDF, I'm not sure how I'd even test this with my ECU/Logbox/wbO2 set-up....suggestions?...lol.
Rem :o
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What I think you can or will see on your O2 feedback is an altered mixture. Let's just suppose this does calibrate the throttle: that would mean if done incorrectly, it would miss- calibrate the throttle, right? Well, if you do the above things but go from 10% to 100% throttle, that should badly miss-calibrate the throttle settings, especially on the low end. If that happens, you should see your mixture change, lean I think, at low throttle settings. And then by again calibrating the throttle, the correct mixture should be restored, which your O2 sensor should show. At least that is how it seems like it would have to work to me.
Brian
Haha...ok, ok...I'll see what I an do this weekend. I'm on the road and living in "The cage" for a couple days;).
Gives me too much time to ponder these deep technical topics...lol.
Rem
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I just tried to mess up the calibration on my bike. I did the same thing as the PO did in his video, with vice grips taking the place of his cruise control :o. Bottom line, no change at all. Just more fodder for the gristmill. Steve
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I just tried to mess up the calibration on my bike. I did the same thing as the PO did in his video, with vice grips taking the place of his cruise control :o. Bottom line, no change at all. Just more fodder for the gristmill. Steve
Did you take it for a ride afterwards? I'd be willing to bet you'd feel a difference. I didn't take a video of my ride after mis-calibrating it but it died right off the line.
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Let the bestus clam chowdah be your reward..... :-)
I have some distinct ideas depending on what you can do and what data you can gather with that Woolich setup. Let me know if you want to chat about it before hand. I really do think it can be done in less than a half- day easily.
I too will try it but I cannot measure air / fuel ratios, only note how the bike tends to run before / after and then after again.
Brian
Haha...ok, ok...I'll see what I an do this weekend. I'm on the road and living in "The cage" for a couple days;).
Gives me too much time to ponder these deep technical topics...lol.
Rem
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Did you take it for a ride afterwards? I'd be willing to bet you'd feel a difference. I didn't take a video of my ride after mis-calibrating it but it died right off the line.
I did. it ran exactly the same as prior to messing with it. I had warmed the engine and had the idle stabilized at 1k before doing the deed, and it was exactly the same afterwards. Seriously, no change for my bike, and yes, i can tell the difference on things like this. Steve
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I did. it ran exactly the same as prior to messing with it. I had warmed the engine and had the idle stabilized at 1k before doing the deed, and it was exactly the same afterwards. Seriously, no change for my bike, and yes, i can tell the difference on things like this. Steve
Before you replied i went out and tried to "un-calibrate" mine and have it die. It didnt... I was surprised... It worked perfectly as it did before. So I tried un-calibrating it again and still worked great...
So now we have a few big WTFs...
Why could i un-calibrate it before, and it went back to being super choppy, but now it still works great...
There is most definately a difference because it would randomly die before i did the calibration.
I also wonder if as mentioned before, maybe it has to do with battery disconnect?
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Martin, did you perform the procedure on your bike after it was warmed up or before?
after, why? ???
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I don't know if it was mentioned, but the TPS relaibration is needed on the BMW's after the battery has been disconnected, so maybe once the computer sees the TPS range it records it and holds it til it's powered down next time, at least on the beemers. Steve
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Yeah, I mentioned the BMW recal several pages back. I've done the recal before on a BMW of mine. Saw technique again on a BMW site post on choppy erratic acceleration problems with a boxer engine. Was done to recal the TPS... May have nothing in common with the C14, but it did make a change in the OP's video on this thread, with his C14. . .
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Yeah, I mentioned the BMW recal several pages back. I've done the recal before on a BMW of mine. Saw technique again on a BMW site post on choppy erratic acceleration problems with a boxer engine. Was done to recal the TPS... May have nothing in common with the C14, but it did make a change in the OP's video on this thread, with his C14. . .
But it didn't have a change last night... I wonder if there's a limited amount of calibrations you can do on a single battery unplug?
Before you replied i went out and tried to "un-calibrate" mine and have it die. It didnt... I was surprised... It worked perfectly as it did before. So I tried un-calibrating it again and still worked great...
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Remember that simply turning the key to on is only part of it. The red ignition on/off switch needs to be in the on/run position, too. Should hear the fuel pump pressure up, then do the throttle movements. Key On is just an accessories mode until the ignition on/off switch is turned tp on. Wonder how I know this???
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Remember that simply turning the key to on is only part of it. The red ignition on/off switch needs to be in the on/run position, too. Should hear the fuel pump pressure up, then do the throttle movements. Key On is just an accessories mode until the ignition on/off switch is turned tp on. Wonder how I know this???
I just tried it both with the red switch on and off, and neither one un-calibrated it... Going to dig around for some more info...
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Few observations:
1. On military aircraft we use torque stripes to indicate that QA has observed torquing of that particular bolt making it easy to see if that bolt has either a) not yet been torqued or b) tampered with. I bet KHI uses torque stripes similarly.
2. Ejection seat designs and avionics use air data collection systems. These air data sensors allow for minor drift over the component's life and can be recalibrated but will reject changes it knows are outside the bounds of reason, say 3-5% of the initial set point. Perhaps that is what you guys are seeing when you try to "uncalibrate."
3. It's not a sure thing that the volt/throttle-% curve is linear. While the two end points may or may not change with a recalibration the points in between may have been built to a best-fit curve based on an average of flow characteristics of several reference intake assemblies. There are manufacturing tolerances for the TBs, intake runners, etc. that the KHI engineers would have to take into account when making fuel/ignition maps. Since driveability is based on the mid-points rather than the end points, a recal algorithm could have more effect on the mid-points than the end points.
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Man, this thread is getting better and better with every post. It's the knowledge and growth through confusion that counts the most...Just went out and cranked the bike just to listen to the sound. BTW, a quick twist of the wrist took the engine from 1000 to 10,000RPM, in a snap. Again, I do love this bike. tomp
FWIW, I joined the UK GTR1400 forum tonight. Always open to more info on this great motorcycle. tp
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Man, this thread is getting better and better with every post. It's the knowledge and growth through confusion that counts the most...Just went out and cranked the bike just to listen to the sound. BTW, a quick twist of the wrist took the engine from 1000 to 10,000RPM, in a snap. Again, I do love this bike. tomp
FWIW, I joined the UK GTR1400 forum tonight. Always open to more info on this great motorcycle. tp
Before I started this thread mine would choke up if I tried to do that throttle snap lol...
To the aircraft mechanic: I'll have to re-read all of that tomorrow to make sense out of it... my brain is done for today. lol
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Before I started this thread mine would choke up if I tried to do that throttle snap lol...
To the aircraft mechanic: I'll have to re-read all of that tomorrow to make sense out of it... my brain is done for today. lol
Seriously, I didn't understand a thing he said, either. Not a dummy, just not educated in his field. Now if this were about sales and marketing, well. . . tp
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but he pointed at something that I've been thinking myself for a couple of days now.
Stephen tried the calibration and worked, as it did in mine. I don't know if he's a gullible person (I don't think so, since he seems to be inquisitive and open) but I'm an engineer and I drive motorcycles by profession and it's part of my work to analyse these things from a subjective point of view, and later on some other guy will validate objective with subjective data.
My bike changed. There's no way around it. I'm so happy with how it is now, that I won't mess with it. I will not try to un-calibrate it.
But... Stephen managed to un-calibrate it before, and now he can't. So it got me thinking. What if the un-calibration procedure (or normal de-calibration with time, mileage, use) happens within a certain range, like 5% of the proper setting? If we try to cheat the ECU by too wide a margin, it won't bite. It will keep the previous, existing setting.
Maybe you (Stephen) would like to try with the GoCruise or similar, adjusting it just a little bit off?
Or, like others mentioned, this can only work if we disconnect the battery, but I think Stephen managed to do the un-calibration before without resorting to that.
Interesting, indeed.
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I also wonder if as mentioned before, maybe it has to do with battery disconnect?
To those that are playing with this but don't want to mess with their battery: you may be able to accomplish the same thing (if it's anything at all to do with anything...there, was that vague enough?) by pulling fuse number two from the #2 fuse block which is the power for the ECU. Pull the fuse and count to..10(?).. and re-insert the fuse and then try the mis-calibrate procedure or the re-calibrate procedure as desired.
:popcorn:
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Martin, did you perform the procedure on your bike after it was warmed up or before?
after, why? ???
I tried the procedure on my bike but it wasn't warmed up. I didn't notice any differences what so ever. I was told that I need to warm the bike first. I keep forgetting to give that a go. The weather around here has been perfect for riding and I've been busy doing that.
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3. It's not a sure thing that the volt/throttle-% curve is linear. While the two end points may or may not change with a recalibration the points in between may have been built to a best-fit curve based on an average of flow characteristics of several reference intake assemblies. There are manufacturing tolerances for the TBs, intake runners, etc. that the KHI engineers would have to take into account when making fuel/ignition maps. Since driveability is based on the mid-points rather than the end points, a recal algorithm could have more effect on the mid-points than the end points.
Actually, the volt/throttle-%/TPS curve is linear. I've checked it during previous tests long before this discussion ever started, and the two end points do not change either, unless you physically adjust the TPS on the side of the throttlebodies. Keep in mind that the throttle and TPS rotation is only a quarter of a complete revolution. If the TPS output was not linear in such a short sweep, the throttle response would be extremely erratic.
The fueling table/graph in he ECU is actually very simple....much more simple than people realize. The voltage output of the TPS points to a specific percentage column in the fuel table. Now, the percentage line of the columns is not linear...it is very flat until approximately 10-15% throttle opening, at which point it starts to curve up. Once the throttle hits approximately 50%, the line is almost straight up. This is because past 50% throttle, the increase in RPMs is so fast, the ECU does not have time to make a lot of changes.
If you were able to un-calibrate the TPS electronically, you would see more than just a hesitation in the throttle, you would see wild RPM swings and very erratic throttle response....overheating, knocking, stalling, etc. I don't think anybody has reported these symptoms have they?
I suspect what is happening with the two full rotations of the throttle is that people are freeing-up stuck or sticky throttle cables, or perhaps dirt and debris is lodged inside the throttle tube housing, or between the throttle and the handlebar, etc. I doubt most sport touring bikes ever get the throttle pegged to WOT a couple times in a row, so in doing this, I could see a "re-calibration" of the mechanical components happening...they will get dirty/sticky over time. I'm just speculating of course;). This would explain why you cannot un-calibrate it once it's been calibrated, and why it would have no effect on a good working C14.
Rem :o
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snip...
I suspect what is happening with the two full rotations of the throttle is that people are freeing-up stuck or sticky throttle cables, or perhaps dirt and debris is lodged inside the throttle tube housing, or between the throttle and the handlebar, etc. I doubt most sport touring bikes ever get the throttle pegged to WOT a couple times in a row, so in doing this, I could see a "re-calibration" of the mechanical components happening...they will get dirty/sticky over time. I'm just speculating of course;).
Rem :o
Some sure do! ;)
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I suspect what is happening with the two full rotations of the throttle is that people are freeing-up stuck or sticky throttle cables, or perhaps dirt and debris is lodged inside the throttle tube housing, or between the throttle and the handlebar, etc. I doubt most sport touring bikes ever get the throttle pegged to WOT a couple times in a row, so in doing this, I could see a "re-calibration" of the mechanical components happening...they will get dirty/sticky over time. I'm just speculating of course;).
I'm sure a lot of Austrian constabularies would disagree with you ;D
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I doubt most sport touring bikes ever get the throttle pegged to WOT a couple times in a row,
Almost every day. 8)
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Rem must mean the feejer guys.
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<snip>
If you were able to un-calibrate the TPS electronically, you would see more than just a hesitation in the throttle, you would see wild RPM swings and very erratic throttle response....overheating, knocking, stalling, etc. I don't think anybody has reported these symptoms have they?
My symptoms (see OP)
-Hesitation
-Stalling (caused me to set the bike down one time)
-Erratic Throttle Response
-Surging
-Poor Fuel Mileage (I seem to have debunked this, but it could have to do with the fact that I'm riding with much more confidence now too... My last long trip was a couple MPG better tho, same route as usual down I84 from Portland to Hood River.)
-I can't comment on the heating, it seems to run a bit cooler, but it's also been cooler weather now here starting around the time this thread was started.
I suspect what is happening with the two full rotations of the throttle is that people are freeing-up stuck or sticky throttle cables, or perhaps dirt and debris is lodged inside the throttle tube housing, or between the throttle and the handlebar, etc. I doubt most sport touring bikes ever get the throttle pegged to WOT a couple times in a row, so in doing this, I could see a "re-calibration" of the mechanical components happening...they will get dirty/sticky over time. I'm just speculating of course;). This would explain why you cannot un-calibrate it once it's been calibrated, and why it would have no effect on a good working C14.
Rem :o
You've never seen me pull onto the freeway from a ramp signal... =D
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Ok, here's what I'm going to do tomorrow. I'll note any idle speed changes.
1. Ride around the block (about 20 miles) to get the feel of the throttle (I'm not having any issues, though)
2. Turn off the bike and twist the throttle fully twice
3. Ride around the block again
4. Turn off the bike and go through the procedure noted here
5. Ride around the block and note any differences when I get back.
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Be sure to ride the same direction. You wouldn't want to unwind anything.
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Be sure to ride the same direction. You wouldn't want to unwind anything.
;D
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I'm a creature of habit. Riding in the wrong direction would be wrong.
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I'm a creature of habit. Riding in the wrong direction would be wrong.
How do you determine which direction is right in the first place?
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Ok, here's what I'm going to do tomorrow. I'll note any idle speed changes.
1. Ride around the block (about 20 miles) to get the feel of the throttle (I'm not having any issues, though)
2. Turn off the bike and twist the throttle fully twice
3. Ride around the block again
4. Turn off the bike and go through the procedure noted here
5. Ride around the block and note any differences when I get back.
Judging by what others are seeing as a result of this procedure, I expect you'll see impressive results. It appears as though Mr. Steve in Florida and myself are the only ones so far that have tried this procedure with zero change.
I've been reading all the reviews and replies, and not only does it make your engine run better, but it appears to make the transmission shift smoother, and in at least one case, we have a C14 that is cornering better as well.
Please do keep us posted.
Rem :o
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Judging by what others are seeing as a result of this procedure, I expect you'll see impressive results. It appears as though Mr. Steve in Florida and myself are the only ones so far that have tried this procedure with zero change.
I've been reading all the reviews and replies, and not only does it make your engine run better, but it appears to make the transmission shift smoother, and in at least one case, we have a C14 that is cornering better as well.
Please do keep us posted.
Rem :o
See post #35. I couldn't detect any differences when I tried this procedure either.
But I did notice that I'm considerably better looking now than I was before I did the procedure. I know, I know, that's hard to believe.... ;)
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Outstanding. This procedure is starting to sound a lot like sex.... only good!
Going to try it on my bike later today. The calibration that is.... not sex.
Brian
Judging by what others are seeing as a result of this procedure, I expect you'll see impressive results. It appears as though Mr. Steve in Florida and myself are the only ones so far that have tried this procedure with zero change.
I've been reading all the reviews and replies, and not only does it make your engine run better, but it appears to make the transmission shift smoother, and in at least one case, we have a C14 that is cornering better as well.
Please do keep us posted.
Rem :o
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Outstanding. This procedure is starting to sound a lot like sex.... only good!
Going to try it on my bike later today. The calibration that is.... not sex.
Brian
Why not try both Brian? :)
Perhaps it'll turn out better than in the past and you can call it good?
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Outstanding. This procedure is starting to sound a lot like sex.... only good!
Going to try it on my bike later today. The calibration that is.... not sex.
Brian
Either way, could be interesting.
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"Gooder", not just "Good". ;)
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Well, I will never be sure but I <think> Kirby has had sex on my bike and I gotta say that just ruins it for me. I don't want to be too graphic here but the clue I found was..... dust on the seat, which is exactly what mummies leave behind.... as far as I have heard.
Brian
Why not try both Brian? :)
Perhaps it'll turn out better than in the past and you can call it good?
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:o mummy tracks?
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Outstanding. This procedure is starting to sound a lot like sex.... only good!
Going to try it on my bike later today. The calibration that is.... not sex.
Brian
Whoa here! You mean certain things don't get larger with this procedure?
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Stephen, can you create a poll for the ones that have tried this procedure? I'd like to see the difference between the gen1 and gen2 bikes and whether it was perceived
seemed to work or not. I'd set it up but I'm getting ready to walk out the door..
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FWIW, a lot of positive post calibration results from members of the UK 1400 site. Same thread is running there now, too. tomp
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Wow, careful on this one boys- this may well turn out to be a lot more Rorschach test than calibration procedure results test.
Are you going to put in categories for shifting, cornering, headlight brightness, etc.?
;) ;D ::) ???
Brian
Edited to add: longitude, latitude, temperature, humidity and the last time you made a sizable donation to the local religious institution.
Stephen, can you create a poll for the ones that have tried this procedure? I'd like to see the difference between the gen1 and gen2 bikes and whether it seemed to work or not. I'd set it up but I'm getting ready to walk out the door..
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Maybe the success rate goes along lines of the magnetic field? We're gonna' need a bigger pole....
Brian
FWIW, a lot of positive post calibration results from members of the UK 1400 site. Same thread is running there now, too. tomp
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We're gonna' need a bigger pole....
Brian
I believe most here would like a bigger pole...
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Well, I will never be sure but I <think> Kirby has had sex on my bike and I gotta say that just ruins it for me. I don't want to be too graphic here but the clue I found was..... dust on the seat, which is exactly what mummies leave behind.... as far as I have heard.
Brian
:o mummy tracks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5EE42So7I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5EE42So7I)
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Maybe the success rate goes along lines of the magnetic field? We're gonna' need a bigger pole....(easy boys)
Brian
FIFY
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Outstanding Jim- what would we do without you? We'd be a mob... just a mob. Instead of the highly refined.... mob that we are now.
Thanks!
Brian
FIFY
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Sure it shouldn't be IFFY, as this whole thread has shown iffy results? Just a ponder.
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I'm not sure I'd call them iffy results just yet. Too many are receiving positive results. The jury is still out.
Outstanding Jim- what would we do without you? We'd be a mob... just a mob. Instead of the highly refined.... mob that we are now.
Thanks!
Brian
I don't want to contemplate me not being here... :'(
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I'm not sure I'd call them iffy results just yet. Too many are receiving positive results. The jury is still out.
I agree. Just a play on words (FIFY and IFFY). Seems the UK riders are getting lots of positive results, with just a few nay sayers. Something is happening, we just don't know what or why, just yet.
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I recently did this to my bike & yeah I think it def helped smooth fuel delivery a lot. Went out for a ride with my wife & hell yeah the bike was much smoother. Pulled away from stops nice & smooth. Parking lot maneuvers were much better. My wife even commented on how much smoother it was. It used to choke, caugh, choke some more until around 3-3.5k then it would finally respond smoothly. Not sure what it did or how it did it but to ME there was a noticable difference.
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Well, the English are known for making things run well, especially if it involves electrics or electronics....
[grinnin', duckin' and runnin']
Brian
<snip>
Seems the UK riders are getting lots of positive results, with just a few nay sayers.
<snip>
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Well, the English are known for making things run well, especially if it involves electrics or electronics....
[grinnin', duckin' and runnin']
Brian
Hee Hee. . . Your middle name isn't Lucas by any chance, is it...
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As in Joseph Lucas, AKA 'The Prince of Darkness'? Nope.
Brian
Hee Hee. . . Your middle name isn't Lucas by any chance, is it...
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As in Joseph Lucas, AKA 'The Prince of Darkness'? Nope.
Brian
OK, just wondering. . . tp ;D ;D
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Woah, this thread blew up today.
Jim, Lemme see if I can jump on this pole.... err... Poll making.
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I tried it today. Absorutely no change. Which is good because my 08 has run flawlessly for 128,896 miles.
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I tried it today. Absorutely no change. Which is good because my 08 has run flawlessly for 128,896 miles.
:hail:
I'm at half that and felt like a hero, until now...
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I'm going to give this a shot on my Silverado. Can't hurt, can it?
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Absolutely not- no harm at all. I've been trying it on everything- my boiler, toilet, wood stove and even the neighbor's dog (she didn't care for the part where I twisted her throttle at all though). No changes or successes yet (though the dog now runs the other way when I call her) but I remain hopeful....
Brian
I'm going to give this a shot on my Silverado. Can't hurt, can it?
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I'm going to give this a shot on my Silverado. Can't hurt, can it?
Nope...it's a Chevy. :rotflmao:
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Might be enough to trigger a recall.
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Rode and got a baseline on how the bike was responding to the throttle and where the idle was set. Turned the bike off, twisted the throttle twice and then started the bike. No change in anything. Turned off the bike again and did the procedure spelled out here....no change in anything that I can detect. I've never had any issues with the throttle response on this bike except for once when it hiccuped earlier in the year on I85. Changed the filter on the pump and it hasn't happened again. Other than the hiccup, the bike has been stellar throughout 60k miles of riding. The bike has ABS and the throttletamer installed. Cables appear to be adjusted correctly.
Excellent poll BTW. :thumbs:
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Tried this on my bike today but as it was running correctly and very well already, I tried to knock it out of correct adjustment. Opened the throttle about 1/4" at the grip edge, then did the 'calibration' sequence, using that 1/4" throttle open point as 'closed' for both cycles. It made no difference in the way the bike runs or idled as far as I can tell.
Brian
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Tried this on my bike today but as it was running correctly and very well already, I tried to knock it out of correct adjustment. Opened the throttle about 1/4" at the grip edge, then did the 'calibration' sequence, using that 1/4" throttle open point as 'closed' for both cycles. It made no difference in the way the bike runs or idled as far as I can tell.
Brian
Ain't life strange, Brian? Seems nothing is ever completely predictable... Unsure why some can seem to confuse the system and then correct, like in the video, and others can't. We may never know why. . . .tomp
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Maybe but I really need a predictable, repeatable world around me. I just cannot accept the mystical of any degree or type. So I tend to believe that all things work according to 'the rules', even if we (or I) do not understand all of them (the rules).
And I absolutely agree that we may never know what is going on in this case as it applies to different people and their bikes. ??
And anyway, if this is some kind of magic, it appears that it must be white magic as it does not seem possible to make a bike run worse for having done it. The only two possible outcomes are 1) better or 2) the same. ;)
Brian
Ain't life strange, Brian? Seems nothing is ever completely predictable... Unsure why some can seem to confuse the system and then correct, like in the video, and others can't. We may never know why. . . .tomp
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I tried it today for giggles.....Warm bike. What I have been experiencing before this was, hard to get smooth shifts, that is nice and easy throttle and no head bobbing....bike shifts smooth, just hard to make it seemless. I noticed when trying the Econ mode last Saturday it shifted without me trying so hard to make it a smooth transition, no head jerk if you will. I would normally just try to short shift or get to 4k or so then shift. Now it transitions more smoothly if you will. I also had a nice straight to go to WOT and it just roared and pulled. Don't remember it sounding like that before! LOL Hope this makes sense.....again the bike shifted fine, just hard on me before the recalibration to make it nice. Here is a better explanation.
Imagine riding 2 up and when shifting she would hit your helmet. Now will not happen. Make sense????? Hard to explain stuff sometimes in writing.
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It seems to have worked on the truck- I noticed it most when turning a corner in town. Used to lurch when it went from idle to on the gas again, abrupt throttle opening. She's smooth now. Haven't been out on the bike yet, but my bike didn't have any real problems anyway.
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Oh, the mysteries of life and motor vehicles, filled with magic and electronics, that even the designers don't understand.
FWIW, Read about any Rx drug in a PDR, and you will learn that most all action descriptions start with, "This drug works in an unknown manner..." Guess drugs and motor vehicles have a lot in common.
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I was talking to a guy the other day about doing a certified Iron Butt ride...
He's been going on about every year I've known him, but hasn't done one yet.
I said, "well, if it was easy, then everybody would be doing it"...lol.
He says, "Oh, I've done it before, just not a certified ride..."
I said, "without certification, it doesn't exist...lol".
Haha...that was the end of the conversation unfortunately...lol.
Rem :o
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I was talking to a guy the other day about doing a certified Iron Butt ride...
He's been going on about every year I've known him, but hasn't done one yet.
I said, "well, if it was easy, then everybody would be doing it"...lol.
He says, "Oh, I've done it before, just not a certified ride..."
I said, "without certification, it doesn't exist...lol".
Haha...that was the end of the conversation unfortunately...lol.
Rem :o
Kinda like, "Without pictures, it never happened." Especially effective when crashing on a dirt bike in front of other riders. Normally they are all laughing and pointing so much, they forget to take out the cameras, so, no pics, it never happened. Ask me how I know. . .tp
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Looks like several Positive results, many no changes, and zero negatives. A win win in most books.
Is there a similar poll on the other forums? If so, similar results? Fully getting the no pics/documentation it never happened (2 1286 mile day trips in a seven day period, documented, never filed, THEY happened, and plenty of off road off bike occurrences that never made primetime digits), but based on what I am seeing SOMETHING is happening and it APPEARS nothing negative. Surely there must be some type of empirical data out there.
Brian, any luck with MJTP at Mama Kaw?
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Suggestion, and not an easy one to follow. Someone with a bike that is running as the OPs before "Calibration", hook the KDS up, run a diagnostic. Do the procedure, re check numbers.
Another, easier idea. KDS, in hand, get a base reading as it stands on a warm bike. Do the procedure with a throttle lock stopping the throttle say %20 from true closed. Without moving the throttle lock, check to get another reading. Remove the throttle lock, third set of readings, and finally, do the procedure again, and get a final reading.
%20 may be too large of a variance, so maybe %10?
No dog is this mess, again, just curious...
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Have not contacted them on this. At this point, the "data" coming in is so... er, "unorganized" that I have no idea what to tell them? If I was to say 'there is a thought that there is a calibration procedure for the ECU regarding throttle position that involves no feedback during or after the calibration process, seems to work less than 1/2 of the time, never results in any negative changes but sometimes positive ones (again, less than 1/2 of the time), and may cause smoother shifting and better cornering' I am afraid it might be looked upon with a jaundiced eye. I mean, the whole think kinda' sounds like throwing salt over your shoulder, right? It does no harm, may do some good and often seems to do nothing.
But hey, if it works for some, by all means do it (either the 'salt over the shoulder' or the 'throttle calibration' thing). I just cannot bring this to professionals with a serious expectation. Which is why I have said right along, data would be great and I do not know of any. ??
Brian
Looks like several Positive results, many no changes, and zero negatives. A win win in most books.
Is there a similar poll on the other forums? If so, similar results? Fully getting the no pics/documentation it never happened (2 1286 mile day trips in a seven day period, documented, never filed, THEY happened, and plenty of off road off bike occurrences that never made primetime digits), but based on what I am seeing SOMETHING is happening and it APPEARS nothing negative. Surely there must be some type of empirical data out there.
Brian, any luck with MJTP at Mama Kaw?
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Skip the cornering and shifting bit, throw in KIPASS is awesome, and you should receive a round trip ticket to the mother ship :)
If the other forums are having similar reports and someone could crunch the numbers I would think you may have the ammo you seek.
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We know that something/changes are going on with this procedure. Too many positive results to all be a placebo effect. If this is the case, someone(s) at Kawasaki has to be aware of the whats and why fors, concerning the procedure. No reason to keep it a secret, if it has been designed as a corrective technique, at least no reason I can see. We know other companies use something similar for TPS correction, so why not by Kawi for the 14, and possibly other models in their line up of motor vehicles... ?
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Shhhhhhhhh, I just saw a green (subdued, with HP2 on the side) helicopter flying over. I better put the German, Austrian, and Italian bikes under cover, I think they may be onto me ::) The Honda and Yami don't run, so they should be safe 8)
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This 'seems' to be working with people that are having issues with the throttle. Those that aren't don't get any better results from the procedure. I'm thinking that there is something to it. The only entity that could confirm it is Kwakers.
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Suggestion, and not an easy one to follow. Someone with a bike that is running as the OPs before "Calibration", hook the KDS up, run a diagnostic. Do the procedure, re check numbers.
Another, easier idea. KDS, in hand, get a base reading as it stands on a warm bike. Do the procedure with a throttle lock stopping the throttle say %20 from true closed. Without moving the throttle lock, check to get another reading. Remove the throttle lock, third set of readings, and finally, do the procedure again, and get a final reading.
%20 may be too large of a variance, so maybe %10?
I've done all this already, and posted the readings and results, and they were more or less dismissed...lol. It was mentioned that the actual TPS voltages don't really matter...it's "what the ECU does with them"....whatever that means, I'm not really sure.
At the end of the day, I'm glad there are guys that are getting their bikes working much better using this calibration method.
I guess I'll just wait and see if somebody posts up why some C14 riders are seeing good results.
Rem :o
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I suggest that this could be about some sort of mechanical hangup in the throttle system - grip, cables, throttle shaft and spring, etc.; due to dirt or grime. The full turn procedure merely "clears" the mechanical hangup.
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That idea might have some merit. Thinking about how the sensors work on these things, they are nothing more or less than a long electrical path with a variable placement of the pick-up. When the pick-up is close to one side, the voltage will be very low. At the other end, the voltage will approach full voltage (usually 5 volts but that does not really matter). And everywhere in-between those points, the voltage will vary in proportion to the travel of the pick-up.... or so it is supposed to work. These units are sealed and usually have a pair of wipers along with the contact (the pick-up); one wiper on either side. These wipers pick up any dust or debris given off by the wear of the contact and the resistance element.
Now most of us use throttles on vehicles w/in a fairly narrow range for the most part. And at least some people simply do not use full throttle or even close to it often or perhaps more than rarely. So- it is common to find these sensors with both a wear pattern in a very small portion of the travel as well as debris piled up on both sides of the wiper's limited travel. Now that debris is conductive, and depending on how it builds up, it could and will change the resistance of the entire sensor (not just the area where the debris actually is). So.... it is possible that two or more full sweeps of the throttle serve to clean the face of the resistance element and restore it to the same value it had when stock.
For whatever it is worth, this not only makes sense to me but I believe IS happening on some level for everyone who does not twist the throttle to the WOT position each and every ride. Also, as these are very inexpensive sensors, some are probably better sealed than others so it would have more of an effect on some vehicles. And lastly, it also would explain why this operation cannot cause a bike to run poorly and only improve things if or when it does anything at all.
And if you guys want to throw and old, logic based guy like me a bone (Easy Boys! Not THAT kind!), let's stop calling it a "recalibration" and rather a throttle cycling or something. 'Cause I still do not believe it is, or ever was, any kind of recalibration.
Just a thought....
Brian
I suggest that this could be about some sort of mechanical hangup in the throttle system - grip, cables, throttle shaft and spring, etc.; due to dirt or grime. The full turn procedure merely "clears" the mechanical hangup.
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Well, your thoughts make sense, except that I, for one, use the full throttle daily, and my bike has had the "snatchy" throttle from day one. Now's 99% gone. I have to admit that I don't know why... :-\
As a bike owner, I don't really care, but as an engineer it's driving me nuts.
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Tried this on my bike today but as it was running correctly and very well already, I tried to knock it out of correct adjustment. Opened the throttle about 1/4" at the grip edge, then did the 'calibration' sequence, using that 1/4" throttle open point as 'closed' for both cycles. It made no difference in the way the bike runs or idled as far as I can tell.
Brian
Interesting. It seems as if those of us with great running 08's, like you Jim, and myself, don't see the astounding changes purported, and no change in idle.
BUT, did you actually do the procedure during a ride, with the bike fully up to temp? And then further ride it as a comparo?
I did, and the ONLY thing I found/felt might have changed, was a minute change in the start off ride smoothness, kinda like when we took all the slack out of our throttle cables way back when to make the takeoff smoother, less lurchy. Other than that, I did not attempet to trick the bike by radically changing throtle positions to emulate a new setpoint out of the existing range. Might be something specific between our original programs, and programs applied to later issue bikes. I dunno. I do feel a slight change, and it seems smoother on lof speed controlled takeoffs and manouvers, but that is all. In my book its not a busted myth, and I have to say it is "plausable" a-la-mythbusters.
It was free, didn't degrade my performance, and worthy of trying it, and riding it in a comparo. Simply doing the technique, and listening to idle, ain't telling squat, you have to ride it and try it during a ride. After its done, there is no way to go back to what it "was" to compare again, so the first time changes are what have to be judged.
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More food for thought. The PCIII and PCV both require "Calibration", it gets the readings from the TPS and it makes a difference, those same readings are being read/sent to the ECU. Maybe there is a procedure during assembly that has been skipped on some bikes? Maybe the bikes with PCs installed unwittingly reset (For Brian ;) )the ECU to the correct reading.
The TPS is a critical part of the ECU and FI. It doesn't take much to make things bad.
Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off? Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle to WOT.
I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?
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To add..
You may recall my reporting a couple years ago of sever Kirby damage down the the wire bundle 3 inches from my TPS, where I had to do on bike harness repair up in there using liquid tape, and electrical tape to restore damaged insulation on those wires. Each wire had bare, and in some cases gnawed strands, possibly reducing their integrety by a small percentage.. we see that often times the plugins also go thru some degraded performance, and may become resistive again, therefore it may have been this effect that was remedied.... folks might want to unplug and replug that harness to see effects also prior to recal procedures... my situation was damage on the TPS side of the connector, therefore my repair was a bit difficult at that time... reaching in there and patching stuff....not fun, but fixed.
Ymmv
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Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off? Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle...
Hey!!! I shower every second thursday, whether I need it or not >:(
;D
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Interesting. It seems as if those of us with great running 08's, like you Jim, and myself, don't see the astounding changes purported, and no change in idle.
BUT, did you actually do the procedure during a ride, with the bike fully up to temp? And then further ride it as a comparo?
Just out of curiosity, do you or anybody else have any reason to explain why the bike's temperature would have anything to do with a throttle calibration? I'm trying to understand why there would be a correlation between throttle position and engine temperature...
Just curious. I keep following this thread, waiting for somebody to offer up some type of logical explanation, other than what they "feel" in how the engine runs.
More food for thought. The PCIII and PCV both require "Calibration", it gets the readings from the TPS and it makes a difference, those same readings are being read/sent to the ECU. Maybe there is a procedure during assembly that has been skipped on some bikes? Maybe the bikes with PCs installed unwittingly reset (For Brian ;) )the ECU to the correct reading.
The TPS is a critical part of the ECU and FI. It doesn't take much to make things bad.
Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off? Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle to WOT.
I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?
The Dynojet products (PCIII & PC5) don't send or write any information to the ECU. They are more or less dumb, and exist and operate all on their own. They do read the throttle position for reference, but they don't do anything with the TPS voltages, and they don't manipulate the signal in any way. All they do is modify the signal the ECU sends to the injectors...nothing more.
And, like I've mentioned several times previously in this thread, the ECU isn't as smart as people think it is. The TPS signal, nor the ECU's reading of it, is anywhere even close to the resolution of a 1-1000 scale. It's more like a 1-14 scale, that's it. The ECU's fuel map table has only 14 columns (I forget exactly, but I think it's 14). So, the TPS .68v to 3.68v scale is only divided into 14 by the ECU...it's really quite crude...and the PC products are even less refined (they have more like 10 columns). Even if it was off by 1.5%, it wouldn't make any difference that the common man would notice.
Kawasaki would set the WOT TPS voltage first, then the 0% throttle voltage will fall within the correct range...it may vary by several percent on any given bike...it really doesn't matter at that point.
HTH,
Rem
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Gee, didn't you like my logical explanation? :'( You know, the one about wiping the entire surface of the potentiometer with the internal (Easy Boys!) wiper?
;D
Brian
<snip>
Just curious. I keep following this thread, waiting for somebody to offer up some type of logical explanation, other than what they "feel" in how the engine runs.
<snip>
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Gee, didn't you like my logical explanation? :'( You know, the one about wiping the entire surface of the potentiometer with the internal (Easy Boys!) wiper?
;D
Brian
Hahaha...yes, that, and the quote below actually make sense to me...lol.
I suggest that this could be about some sort of mechanical hangup in the throttle system - grip, cables, throttle shaft and spring, etc.; due to dirt or grime. The full turn procedure merely "clears" the mechanical hangup.
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Yep. The bike was already ridden when I did the [not a re-calibration but that is what some are calling it] procedure. :-) Although as Cory pointed out, that would not make any difference other than to set a different 0 (zero) point if the engine was cold enough to engage the fast idle cam and the user was trying to use the idle position of the throttle as a reference point, which I was not doing.
And as you say, my bike has always run correctly and very well- there is nothing to fix on my bike so I was not even bothering to look for that. I was instead trying to miss- calibrate ::) the works by setting 0 (zero) position at about 1/4" open. I used a piece of tape to return the throttle to that exact position (such as my mark I eyeballs are capable of) repeatedly. Now if anything did respond and react to this procedure, the ECU would have thought that the actual idle point was quite a long way from where the throttle is when it really idles- and that absolutely would have forced the bike to run poorly indeed. But it did not. And I have to say I cannot see any way any calibration procedure could only have the capacity to calibrate the system 'correctly'; if it can actually be calibrated, I would have badly miss- calibrated my bike.
But all of this is merely what I found and again, not data or evidence of any kind. Just more empiracal 'stuff' for the heap really. Data would consist of O2 readings showing the difference of the 'before' and 'after', or put another way, 'calibrated' and 'miss- calibrated'.
Brian
Interesting. It seems as if those of us with great running 08's, like you Jim, and myself, don't see the astounding changes purported, and no change in idle.
BUT, did you actually do the procedure during a ride, with the bike fully up to temp? And then further ride it as a comparo?
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Yes, Power Commanders do require a calibration and when one is performing that, one is both extremely aware that it is being done and there is feedback that it actually has been done, on both ends of the throttle position. This is one of several problems I have with this "secret procedure" to re-calibrate the TPS on the bike: it could be done accidentally and that would be disastrous.
But at any rate, no one has to convince me or satisfy me that this actually works. We are all merely discussing it here and not arguing. Besides, I do not want to 'win' but would much rather find out why some people are finding this procedure makes a difference and my original thoughts being right or wrong is irrelevant.
Brian
More food for thought. The PCIII and PCV both require "Calibration", it gets the readings from the TPS and it makes a difference, those same readings are being read/sent to the ECU. Maybe there is a procedure during assembly that has been skipped on some bikes? Maybe the bikes with PCs installed unwittingly reset (For Brian ;) )the ECU to the correct reading.
The TPS is a critical part of the ECU and FI. It doesn't take much to make things bad.
Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off? Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle to WOT.
I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?
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Hey Martin, I thought for sure you were going to tell him engineers make up simple numbers too 'cause making up complicated numbers is harder (Easy Boys!).
:rotflmao:
Brian
Hey!!! I shower every second thursday, whether I need it or not >:(
;D
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I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?
I have asked the only guy I know that is deeply into these ECU's, and he has not responded in over a week or so. His non-response may be an answer in itself, but I'll wait patiently to hear back regardless. Whatever the answer is, I will be sure to share it with everybody;).
Rem
If anybody knows Ivan of Ivan's Performance in NY, he would definitely know the answer. I've talked to him several times over the years, but 'm not calling him to ask...and he doesn't do email;). He has his own custom made ECU software which is quite involved, so if anybody knows, he would;).
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Just read through the COG posts, curious as to what the UK guys are saying, but I am not interested in yet another forum. Anyone care to share?
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http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4437.0 (http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4437.0)
Here ya go.... UK site thread...
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gotta register to look
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Didn't know that, I am a member. FWIW, lots of great folks and info in things not discussed here. Sign up, what's to lose??? tp
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Very good people. They don't post as much as us but very good info that is sometimes cross posted here.
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REM:
Sorry if my chart was offensive... Wasn't intended to be... As Brian said, we need fuel readings.
At the same time, if you ran the tests at 25% throttle, that could be outside of a "Safety net" if it's in there, as others have mentioned.
And as far as the engine temp goes, I don't know why it would matter when you did the calibration, but it could matter what you experience right off the bat... Engines always chug for the first bit while they're cold if you put a load on them. Some of us don't always have time to let the engine fully warm up before taking off. Not that anyone on here needs that explanation.. Just continuing to dig my own grave... lol
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Very good people. They don't post as much as us but very good info that is sometimes cross posted here.
Being they are 5-8 hours ahead of us, it's sometimes hard to keep a conversation going. Found the same with other brand/model forums based across the pond too.
FWIW, some of the best info I have gained over the years, has been on BMW forums from members from OZ and NZ. Those guys LOVE their motorcycles... tp
Stephen, from post 1, I have believed your video showed something more than dirty pots and cables. Maybe someday we will finally know what that something is. You proved a change in the video. Have you retried the test at the test change baseline, so as to replicate the RPM acceleration difference? Your fan, tomp
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gotta register to look
Good luck. Just wasted 15 minutes trying to register. Is it 1352, 1352cc, or 1352 cc, or 1,352 etc? Do I use ZG/GTR as model, C14, ZG 1400???? Yes, as frustrated as Kirby trying to crack a nut >:(
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Good luck. Just wasted 15 minutes trying to register. Is it 1352, 1352cc, or 1352 cc, or 1,352 etc? Do I use ZG/GTR as model, C14, ZG 1400???? Yes, as frustrated as Kirby trying to crack a nut >:(
1400 is the correct answer. I tried those others, too....Need to keep it simple. GTR 1400= 1400, try that.
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1400 is the correct answer. I tried those others, too....Need to keep it simple. GTR 1400= 1400, try that.
Wow, so they want uninformed members joining? I will try ONE more time...
And, thank you :)
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Try recalibrating your mouse: turn the computer on, then push the mouse forward as far as it will go, then reverse it as far as it will go. Do this two times and turn the computer off. Then when you restart the computer, it will run faster and you will be able to get into the UK forum.
Sorry Chet, just could not resist.... :rotflmao:
Brian
Good luck. Just wasted 15 minutes trying to register. Is it 1352, 1352cc, or 1352 cc, or 1,352 etc? Do I use ZG/GTR as model, C14, ZG 1400???? Yes, as frustrated as Kirby trying to crack a nut >:(
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OK Brian, remember they are all asleep at this time.... 1400=1400, not 1352 or any thing else. Remember they are Brits.
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Try recalibrating your mouse: turn the computer on, then push the mouse forward as far as it will go, then reverse it as far as it will go. Do this two times and turn the computer off. Then when you restart the computer, it will run faster and you will be able to get into the UK forum.
Sorry Chet, just could not resist.... :rotflmao:
Brian
I tried pushing the mouse, but the tail broke.. I couldn't find the power button so I turned off the main circuit breaker. After being chased around the house (twice, in each direction) I run faster (than my wife). When I got back in the house I was a new member in the UK forum ;D Not convinced that these steps actually had anything to do with being accepted, so we will need other non members do the same thing. Just remember to enter in an incorrect engine size for the bike :o
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You know it's not about accuracy, but about keeping computer troll systems from being a part of their group. Nice bunch, over there, for sure. Don't go if you don't want to join, like I did... tp
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You know it's not about accuracy, but about keeping computer troll systems from being a part of their group. Nice bunch, over there, for sure. Don't go if you don't want to join, like I did... tp
Yup!! No issues, just venting a bit...
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Yeah, been dealing with them on and off for years. Almost fluent in the language although sometimes the individual use of some words still throw me.
I joined that forum quite a while ago and stop by now and then. And yep, seems like a nice enough group but again, their talking about destinations and various local situations falls short of a Yank's understanding a lot of the time. This is not to imply that I follow what is going on on this forum though.... :-)
Brian
OK Brian, remember they are all asleep at this time.... 1400=1400, not 1352 or any thing else. Remember they are Brits.
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Yeah, been dealing with them on and off for years. Almost fluent in the language although sometimes the individual use of some words still throw me.
I joined that forum quite a while ago and stop by now and then. And yep, seems like a nice enough group but again, their talking about destinations and various local situations falls short of a Yank's understanding a lot of the time. This is not to imply that I follow what is going on on this forum though.... :-)
Brian
When you get my age, you take time to listen to others, and make sure you don't miss anything important, before you are just ashes and dust. I love to visit with folks from all over the world, now. It was just a distant dream when I was young. Today, a reality, thanks to this interweb thing.... tp
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REM:
Sorry if my chart was offensive... Wasn't intended to be... As Brian said, we need fuel readings.
At the same time, if you ran the tests at 25% throttle, that could be outside of a "Safety net" if it's in there, as others have mentioned.
Stephen,
Nossir, nothing has been offensive in any way, and I didn't mean to sound too gruff about any of this stuff either;)./.
All is good on this end;). Carry on folks...I'm just along for the ride;).
Rem :o
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Tomp: i did try to un-cal and -re-cal it but to no change. Havent had any time to mess with it tho because of work (yay being self employed... Either dead ir slammed, and slammed more recently... Business is a good problem to have tho!)
Im out of town for the next week, away from the connie :(
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I'm home, and (mostly) caught up on work stuff... Front end of my bike is coming apart soon if there is anything people want me to look at/ post pictures of regarding this. (Not sure there really is anything but I'll be in there anyways doing some electrical/ headlight work)