Author Topic: Changed oil, better results.  (Read 36649 times)

Offline Buzzard63

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2014, 08:59:58 AM »
  What exactly do you riders mean by "notchy shifting"?
[/quote]Never experienced it? Years ago, I had just purchased a used VFR800, a known fine motorcycle. I changed the oil, filling it with Rotella synthetic, which I use in nearly everything. Right out of the garage, the shifting is crap, feels like I filled up with a combo of oil and sand. I changed the oil again, to Mobil 1 10/40 MC oil, the shifting is fine, silky smooth. I still use Rotella in most everything else, fine oil. The VFR had other needs. Ever been inside a modern M/C motor/transmission? Shifting is not just gears sliding across a shaft and dogs engaging. The shift forks have protrusions that move within grooves in the shift drum, the shift forks slide on their own shafts, the shift drum rotates as the shift pawls engage the pins, etc, etc. Anywhere in this scenario a special need for lubricity may arise. Tolerances, material surfaces, and forces from unexpected directions may be unique to a bike. Yeah, I know, TMI.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 09:42:12 AM »
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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2014, 02:24:55 PM »
  What exactly do you riders mean by "notchy shifting"?
Never experienced it? Years ago, I had just purchased a used VFR800, a known fine motorcycle. I changed the oil, filling it with Rotella synthetic, which I use in nearly everything. Right out of the garage, the shifting is crap, feels like I filled up with a combo of oil and sand. I changed the oil again, to Mobil 1 10/40 MC oil, the shifting is fine, silky smooth. I still use Rotella in most everything else, fine oil. The VFR had other needs. Ever been inside a modern M/C motor/transmission? Shifting is not just gears sliding across a shaft and dogs engaging. The shift forks have protrusions that move within grooves in the shift drum, the shift forks slide on their own shafts, the shift drum rotates as the shift pawls engage the pins, etc, etc. Anywhere in this scenario a special need for lubricity may arise. Tolerances, material surfaces, and forces from unexpected directions may be unique to a bike. Yeah, I know, TMI.
Never to much info, just takes more effort to arrive at the correct conclusion(s). I am no engineer but all those tranny parts seem to me to require protection from high pressure metal to metal contact to preserve their useful life more than lubricity to make them function smoothly. I think crankshaft, rod bearings and and camshafts bearings and lobes have a higher need for lubricity. If the oil was bad enough to make the tranny act up then the engine would be in trouble. I suspect the cause of hard shifting, if that is what is meant by notchy" could be a dragging clutch.

I have a 99 VFR800 with 124,541 miles on it, the latest 79 put on today. It still runs and shifts as nice as the day I bought it. I have always used Rotella Synthetic.
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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2014, 03:56:06 PM »
I run Royal Purple Max Cycle 10-40 in all my bikes, good stuff.  :cool:

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2014, 05:10:06 PM »
For me, the C-14 really stands out among motorcycles in its sensitivity to oil and the oil's effect on shifting.

Hard to explain but on my bike, it goes like this: Say it takes 5 lbs. of force to shift the transmission between gears. So I try to put 10 lbs. of force on the shifter when I shift. But sometimes, I really only put 7 or 8 lbs. of force because.... well, because my feet are poorly calibrated :-)  Now when the bike shifts smoothly, it makes no difference. But when it gets 'notchy', it tends to drag and hang up mid- way in the shifting movement. It is sufficient to get my attention when it gets notchy, otherwise I do not think about shifting. Also, instead of one smooth mechanical motion, it feels like it has little lumps or 'notches' in some part of the mechanism where the shifting tends to resist and hang up. It would be like turning a crank on something like a boat winch and having a little sand on the gears.... it would feel 'notchy' in your hand. It feels like there is sand in the groove of the shifter drum on the bike and the follower is bumping into the grains of sand and has to climb over them to continue to move. Changing the oil makes a surprising difference in the quality, smoothness and ease of shifting this bike, or at least that is what I find.

Also, it is not just dirty or old oil that causes this notchy shifting; I find Rotella 5W-40, the synthetic stuff (new type) causes (or is that allows?) the bike to shift poorly right from the day it is put in. The old Rotella 5W-40 was much, much better.

I believe what is happening is that shifting causes direct metal- to- metal contact (as opposed to virtually all the engine's lubrication for example) and the newer oils have less contact lubricants in them; these are usually called the 'EP' or extreme pressure additives and are almost always ZDDP in motor oil. Final drive or rear end lube (easy boys!) has a lot of EP additive in it and at least part of that is sulfur based, which is what makes it smell so strongly. But back to motor oil.... adding a splash of ZDDP into the motor oil seems to help quite a bit with shifting the C-14 but I find the brand and type of oil is still the most important thing.

Brian

This topic really baffles me. In 422,000 miles on 20 or so bikes I have never noticed shifting problems related to oil. I've had hard or no shifting due to master cylinder leaks or shift lever maladjustment. The term "notchy shifting" perplexes me since in my mind the shift mechanism works by cogs sliding into "notches" thus "notchy" is a good thing when you are talking about shifting quality. What exactly do you riders mean by "notchy shifting"?
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Offline jimmymac

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 05:27:47 PM »
I can't stand it anymore!!!
I got sucked in again. I'm gonna try the Mobile Delvac in the new ZX14. I already changed it yesterday, but haven't ridden it yet. I have very cheap access to it at work.
Too bad the Wix filters are so high. ::)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 05:31:22 PM »
The parts sliding in the transmission and the rotating parts of an internal combustion engine are lubricated in fundamentally different ways. The shifting is as you describe, two metal surfaces sliding against one another with an extreme lubrication package (ZDDP, moly, graphite, sulfur) acting like tiny little ball bearings between them. Things like engine bearings (main bearings, rod bearings) cam lobes and almost everything else use hydrodynamic lubrication; the parts never actually touch. So an oil can be very good, excellent and even outstanding at one and lousy at the other at the same time. And in fact, as the same oil gets better at one, it almost always loses ground on the other one; ZDDP will actually <cause> an increase in wear in the hydrodynamic bearings if too much is used.

I doubt you are interested but I think I can give a quick overview of hydrodynamic lubrication while waiting for the A/C to take hold and before the wine takes hold.  :o :D   Think of a crankshaft journal rotating inside a main bearing shell. The two surfaces are very smooth and very close- no more than 3 to 5 thousandths of an inch gap (diametral, not radial so it is 1/2 of that on either side). Now picture the oil that is in contact with the the crankshaft surface- it has virtually no movement relative to that crankshaft, which means it is moving at the same velocity as the crankshaft surface. But the oil in contact with the bearing shells also has no movement relative to the shells, which means that that oil is not moving, just as the bearing shell is not moving. So the film of oil that is only 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch thick has a gradient of velocity across it: one surface is not moving and the other surface is moving very rapidly. Now that gradient, where the oil is, and MUST, shear, has a pressure gradient in it as well, caused by those very shear forces. Those shear forces are all around the crankshaft and do not do anything for anyone other than to use power to shear the oil in the first place (which is why it gets hot). But here comes the key.... when we also push on the crankshaft, we knock it out of the center of the bearing, and the exact same amount of shearing force is now made up in a small gap..... which means there is less oil to shear and it must absorb more force where it is thinner (less oil having the same shear force means the oil must shear faster where the gap is less). That increase in shear forces pushes back on the crankshaft and viola! we have a hydrodynamic bearing. As the engine tries its best to push the crankshaft down (mostly down in a vertical engine), the shearing force increases and resists the crankshaft moving downward until the forces balance and the crankshaft is merrily spinning away, with TONS of force on it, literally, without ever touching the bottom of the bearing housing. If taken to extremes, as the oil film gets thinner, the forces increase until the chains of oil are forced out of the way (unlikely) or the oil simply gets so hot it vaporizes (likely) at which point a main bearing failure is almost inevitable.

The best analogy of a hydrodynamic bearing I have heard is that it works exactly like water skiing- the faster you go, the more force is generated and the less the skis sink in the water. The rotating part of the bearing is literally oil- skiing on top of the bearing shells.

Remember those old commercials for STP where the Sumo wrestler could not pick up the screwdriver once it was coated with STP thereby proving how slipper it was? Yeah, it does not and never did work like that and that 'test' was meaningless as far as showing the qualities of a motor oil.

Brian (cooler here now! where is my wine?)

Never to much info, just takes more effort to arrive at the correct conclusion(s). I am no engineer but all those tranny parts seem to me to require protection from high pressure metal to metal contact to preserve their useful life more than lubricity to make them function smoothly. I think crankshaft, rod bearings and and camshafts bearings and lobes have a higher need for lubricity. If the oil was bad enough to make the tranny act up then the engine would be in trouble. I suspect the cause of hard shifting, if that is what is meant by notchy" could be a dragging clutch.

I have a 99 VFR800 with 124,541 miles on it, the latest 79 put on today. It still runs and shifts as nice as the day I bought it. I have always used Rotella Synthetic.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 05:34:01 PM »
Ya' just cannot beat a good oil thread..... unless you trump it with KiPass of course. :-)

Any of the fleet oils are excellent. They are often used in very large, very expensive engines and no one in his / her right mind would pour a lousy or questionable oil into one of those things.

The only problem I find with them on a motorcycle is that they are pretty 'draggy' when the engine is cold. Hey, they are 15W (cold) oils, right? By the way, I am speaking of the mineral 15W-40 oils, not the <sorta'> synthetic 5W-40 oils here. But the engine will crank a bit slower, the clutch will be a bit more sluggish and 'sticky' and the first gear clunk will be pretty intense with those heavy multi- weight oils. It does not cause any harm but it is noticeable. Cut it 50/50 with 10W-40 of another brand and it acts pretty good though.  ;)

Brian

I can't stand it anymore!!!
I got sucked in again. I'm gonna try the Mobile Delvac in the new ZX14. I already changed it yesterday, but haven't ridden it yet. I have very cheap access to it at work.
Too bad the Wix filters are so high. ::)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline tomp

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 06:11:04 PM »
Rode mine on Tuesday and for the first time for me, some up shifts of 2-3 and  occasionally 3-4 were notchy.  Mobil 1 10-40 with around 3500 miles on it.  Gonna ride again this weekend and see if the feeling is still there. 

For those who still don't understand the feel, take a ride on an airhead/oilhead boxer BMW, or 5 speed or less Harley.  Kinda like that....tp

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Offline PH14

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 08:23:11 PM »
Rode mine tonight, changed the oil 700 miles ago using Suzuki 10W40 dino oil, shifts smoothly.

Offline Rhino

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2014, 07:42:49 AM »
OK, I'll bite. Isn't there a potential problem with and additive like ZDDP with a wet clutch?

The parts sliding in the transmission and the rotating parts of an internal combustion engine are lubricated in fundamentally different ways. The shifting is as you describe, two metal surfaces sliding against one another with an extreme lubrication package (ZDDP, moly, graphite, sulfur) acting like tiny little ball bearings between them. Things like engine bearings (main bearings, rod bearings) cam lobes and almost everything else use hydrodynamic lubrication; the parts never actually touch. So an oil can be very good, excellent and even outstanding at one and lousy at the other at the same time. And in fact, as the same oil gets better at one, it almost always loses ground on the other one; ZDDP will actually <cause> an increase in wear in the hydrodynamic bearings if too much is used.

I doubt you are interested but I think I can give a quick overview of hydrodynamic lubrication while waiting for the A/C to take hold and before the wine takes hold.  :o :D   Think of a crankshaft journal rotating inside a main bearing shell. The two surfaces are very smooth and very close- no more than 3 to 5 thousandths of an inch gap (diametral, not radial so it is 1/2 of that on either side). Now picture the oil that is in contact with the the crankshaft surface- it has virtually no movement relative to that crankshaft, which means it is moving at the same velocity as the crankshaft surface. But the oil in contact with the bearing shells also has no movement relative to the shells, which means that that oil is not moving, just as the bearing shell is not moving. So the film of oil that is only 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch thick has a gradient of velocity across it: one surface is not moving and the other surface is moving very rapidly. Now that gradient, where the oil is, and MUST, shear, has a pressure gradient in it as well, caused by those very shear forces. Those shear forces are all around the crankshaft and do not do anything for anyone other than to use power to shear the oil in the first place (which is why it gets hot). But here comes the key.... when we also push on the crankshaft, we knock it out of the center of the bearing, and the exact same amount of shearing force is now made up in a small gap..... which means there is less oil to shear and it must absorb more force where it is thinner (less oil having the same shear force means the oil must shear faster where the gap is less). That increase in shear forces pushes back on the crankshaft and viola! we have a hydrodynamic bearing. As the engine tries its best to push the crankshaft down (mostly down in a vertical engine), the shearing force increases and resists the crankshaft moving downward until the forces balance and the crankshaft is merrily spinning away, with TONS of force on it, literally, without ever touching the bottom of the bearing housing. If taken to extremes, as the oil film gets thinner, the forces increase until the chains of oil are forced out of the way (unlikely) or the oil simply gets so hot it vaporizes (likely) at which point a main bearing failure is almost inevitable.

The best analogy of a hydrodynamic bearing I have heard is that it works exactly like water skiing- the faster you go, the more force is generated and the less the skis sink in the water. The rotating part of the bearing is literally oil- skiing on top of the bearing shells.

Remember those old commercials for STP where the Sumo wrestler could not pick up the screwdriver once it was coated with STP thereby proving how slipper it was? Yeah, it does not and never did work like that and that 'test' was meaningless as far as showing the qualities of a motor oil.

Brian (cooler here now! where is my wine?)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2014, 08:58:51 AM »
No, as I said, virtually all motor oil contains ZDDP already but is limited to 800 PPM. Oils of a generation ago usually contained 1,200 PPM to 1,800 PPM and any of those amounts were also safe for a wet clutch.

The thing to avoid with a wet clutch is Moly (molybdenum disulfide) which is typically not used in any motor oil but is sold as an oil additive.

Brian

OK, I'll bite. Isn't there a potential problem with and additive like ZDDP with a wet clutch?
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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2014, 08:13:30 PM »
Blue Ray?  I thought this was an oil thread, not a DVD thread... dang.  :o

I ran Mobil1 15w50 in my ST1300... she liked it, and it was hot in Houston.  My C14 likes Mobil1 10w40.

So for you all running Mobil 1, is that the automotive type? 

I ran the Mobil 1 10-40 "High Mileage" in my cbr1000 for about 50k miles with no problems. Supposedly the high mileage formulation has more anti-wear additives (ZDDP?) for older engines with non-roller cams. My understanding is that roller cams of modern auto engines didn't need as much anti-wear additives and the Nazi EPA was in a hurry to remove them. So the oil manufacturer's came up with the high mileage formulations for older engines which I figured would be OK for cams in bike engines.

Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2014, 05:58:36 AM »
I can't stand it anymore!!!
I got sucked in again. I'm gonna try the Mobile Delvac in the new ZX14. I already changed it yesterday, but haven't ridden it yet. I have very cheap access to it at work.  ;) ;)
Too bad the Wix filters are so high. ::)

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Offline Conrad

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2014, 07:20:10 AM »
So for you all running Mobil 1, is that the automotive type?

I ran the Mobil 1 10-40 "High Mileage" in my cbr1000 for about 50k miles with no problems. Supposedly the high mileage formulation has more anti-wear additives (ZDDP?) for older engines with non-roller cams. My understanding is that roller cams of modern auto engines didn't need as much anti-wear additives and the Nazi EPA was in a hurry to remove them. So the oil manufacturer's came up with the high mileage formulations for older engines which I figured would be OK for cams in bike engines.

I can't speak for the others but this is what I use.



I just picked up a case from my local Farm and Fleet for $8.49 per bottle.
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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2014, 06:45:24 PM »
I can't speak for the others but this is what I use.



I just picked up a case from my local Farm and Fleet for $8.49 per bottle.

Thanks Conrad, so you're using the motorcycle stuff, $8.49 a quart is really good. Hard to find it that low.

Offline Cuda

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2014, 03:10:29 PM »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2014, 03:27:26 PM »
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Rhino

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2014, 07:09:30 AM »
Give me a lube JOB

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35836

Interesting. Here is another with similar information that includes Shell Rotella T 5W40 Synthetic. It doesn't get a very good PSI rating.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/346422.html?1363132150

What's interesting to me is that there aren't any 40 weight oils on the list until #46, Royal Purple 15W40 Synthetic Diesel.

Offline jimmymac

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Re: Changed oil, better results.
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2014, 12:33:41 PM »
Just keeping you updated, and keeping the oil thread alive.
I rode the bike today for the first time with the Mobil Delvac, and the bike was pure magic. Shifted like butta.
Not that it was having any problems. Maybe it was my imagination, but did seem like it shifted better...
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