Front calipers

[T Cro ®]

ROFL !! That was great. I needed a good laugh.

I'm glad to entertain..... 

[enim57]

By the way, an increase in pad size is a reduction in pressure per square inch and results in less friction.
 That is why skinny tires are better in the winter. Higher pressure will dig down through the snow. Wide tires will ski on top of the snow. Same force (gravity and the mass of the vehicle is constant) yet more friction with less area.

This does not relate to the subject in question as one of the sufaces has seriously deformed therefore giving additional mechanical grip and coefficient of friction. Conversely when traveling in sand the opposite is done and tyres are deflated or wider ones used to give a greater contact area. Both of these examples are not relevant.

I understand pressure it's been part of my working life but there is more than just pressure involved here, unfortunately people are fixating on just this part. There is no denial as vehicles have got heavier and faster that contact (friction) areas have got larger in all areas that need grip - brakes & tyres. This wouldn't have hapened if it wasn't necessary, otherwise we would still have skinny tyres and small linings.

Read these quotes below from Wikipedia:

"Surface roughness and contact area, however, do affect kinetic friction for micro- and nano-scale objects where surface area forces dominate inertial forces."

"The strength of the approximation is its simplicity and versatility – though in general the relationship between normal force and frictional force is not exactly linear (and so the frictional force is not entirely independent of the contact area of the surfaces), the Coulomb approximation is an adequate representation of friction for the analysis of many physical systems."

"Despite being a simplified model of friction, the Coulomb model is useful in many numerical simulation applications such as multibody systems and granular material. Even its most simple expression encapsulates the fundamental effects of sticking and sliding which are required in many applied cases, although specific algorithms have to be designed in order to efficiently numerically integrate mechanical systems with Coulomb friction and bilateral and/or unilateral contact.[25][26][27][28][29] Some quite nonlinear effects, such as the so-called Painlevé paradoxes, may be encountered with Coulomb friction."

This has become a sizeable thread, how much more can be said?, Now let's get on to tyres, oil, or which year was the best model.

Regards, Russell

[mdr]

This has become a sizeable thread, how much more can be said?, Now let's get on to tyres, oil, or which year was the best model.

Maybe just mentioning my favorite braking upgrade.  A set of 1.1 Sonic Springs + RaceTech Gold Valves.  Allows a lot more braking force before the front end dives excessively, and therefore increases pad pressure, braking torque and reduces braking distance and pucker factor.  All this with stock brake components.

Oh, and the black ones, whatever gets changed regularly and the '01.  Duh.  Next

[Boomer]

Russell, thought you'd like to know that I fitted your brackets this weekend with the Chinese rotors on my '89.
All went very well but I had to put a washer (spacer) between your brackets and the fork legs to get the rotor to line up with the calipers on both sides.
Once that was done it all works great and looks so much better than it did with ZRXMopars brackets.
Thanks mate.

[enim57]

Hi George,
Good to hear the brackets are on. The caliper will be closer to the wheel side of the disc but should not rub on it. Putting a washer in between will certainly help to even out the clearances. I thought about putting the washers on mine but have not done it - no problems so far. Glad you are pleased with the result.

Thanks & regards, Russell

[Boomer]

It was rubbing slightly with the chinese wave rotors but only on the peaks of the waves.
It's now smack bang dead centre and stops on a penny. 
At the moment the brakes are better than those on my C14. 
That also had new chinese rotors and there is a slight vibe/rumble from the front when I brake hard.
However as the rotors/pads bed in it's getting better.

[enim57]

Hi George,
Thanks for the feedback, interesting. You're the first person to mention the rubbing and mine have clearance regardless of which discs I used (OEM, my manufactured carbon steel, and now Chinese), I wonder what the difference is. Anyway it doesn't matter - I believe you. If I sell any more brackets I'll include stainless steel washers in the kit. Thanks again.

Regards, Russell

[T Cro ®]

Hi George,
Thanks for the feedback, interesting. You're the first person to mention the rubbing and mine have clearance regardless of which discs I used (OEM, my manufactured carbon steel, and now Chinese), I wonder what the difference is. Anyway it doesn't matter - I believe you. When I sell more brackets I'll include stainless steel washers in the kit. Thanks again.

Regards, Russell

Fixed that for ya..... 

If you take a look at McMaster they sell S. S. Shimming Washers as well as Precision Flat Washers that have very close tolerances for repeatability. They are more costly but this is what I sell with my Shift Linkage so that I'll never be stuck with not sending enough washers and shims with my kits.

[enim57]

Thanks Tony,
I had a look at their website and found the shimming washers. I'm in Australia but now that I know what to look for I will do a search here. Thanks again.

Regards, Russell

[diego092409]

Has anyone tried to put radial mount calipers on their C10?

I have been looking around on eBay and the difference in used radial mount versus axial mount calipers is negligible and in some cases cheaper. In my mind, fabrication of a bracket would be straightforward and would allow the opportunity to put larger rotors on down the road by means of only changing the bolts and adding spacers to make up the difference.

Additionally, if we are talking about upgrading the calipers, wouldn't it make sense to upgrade the master cylinder as well?  Can the original master cylinder really provide the volume and pressures that will be needed with doubling if not tripling the number of pistons they are feeding. This is completely theoretical assuming that we are limited by compressive damping of the forks.

[T Cro ®]

No manf supports us by making any sort of brackets for calipers so you would be "one of the first" to try adapting radial calipers to the stock front end.

As to a bigger master cylinder that it not always the need, while slightly differing in reservoir size the masters on the Concours and say the ZRX are the same (5/8") size and there you go from 4 slightly larger pistons to 12 fairly small pistons. And for myself I used a smaller (1/2") bore master on my ZRX brakes as it builds higher pressure but with less volume so it actually improves the feel of the brakes without being overly grabby.

[Boomer]

The only real difference between a Radial Caliper and a "normal" one is the way that it bolts to the fork.
The mounting bolts are Radial to the axle rather than Parallel to the axle.
Making a radial mount for the C10 is going to be a PITA and I'm not sure if the gains are worth it.
Now a Radial master cylinder might be a worthwhile fit.

[enim57]

Well I'm going to do it again and probably create more contoversy by stating radial brakes do not have more stopping power than an all things being equal parallel brakes, and will make no difference to the C10 at all. George is correct. Radial brakes came about because of vibration during braking on bikes with USD forks.

Read this (scroll down to middle of page): http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html

Regards, Russell

[jworth]

I've found myself confused by all of the hulabalu about radial brakes.  I've never figured out how it made any difference from a mechanical advantage perspective.  Granted I'm not a huge student thereof.  The mention of vibration in USD forks makes some sense since those forks would have narrow diameters and perhaps more flex at the bottom.  I can't see how there is significant flex on regular forks.  So I'm still left to think that it's really more of just a latest greatest whiz bang marketing thing. 

Keep thinking though people.

[nevadazx12]

Here is an article and chart showing the relationships between master cylinder size and the calipers.  Bigger on the MC may not always be better.  In the case of my old BMW they were too big and made for very heavy braking, not very efficient and not too progressive.  In many cases the smaller the MC size the better the feel, and better brakes.

http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm