Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Fretka on October 20, 2011, 12:05:26 AM
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Do we have any folks who want to do a PC 5 program it yourself sorta session? Modify or build your own fuel maps or load two maps, one performance and the other for mileage etc..
With or without Auto-tune function. Or maybe just understand how all this stuff works?
Fretka
Also... I still have the photos from the old turbo build thread (from the pre crash board), any interest in re-building that thread?
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... I still have the photos from the old turbo build thread (from the pre crash board), any interest in re-building that thread?
YES! :grouphug:
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Do we have any folks who want to do a PC 5 program it yourself sorta session? Modify or build your own fuel maps or load two maps, one performance and the other for mileage etc..
With or without Auto-tune function. Or maybe just understand how all this stuff works?
Fretka
Also... I still have the photos from the old turbo build thread (from the pre crash board), any interest in re-building that thread?
Fretka, if you write the PCV book I'll buy it.
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If we do this PC5 thread please know that this must be a board-wide affair with input, disagreement, participation from all those interested.
Caveat: I am not nor do I imply that my knowledge of fuel systems is the last-word or definitive go to for this subject. I do not want to step on any toes or promote my own ideas as to what method is best.
I would really like that we can all learn some things here. So ask questions and propose answers to the whole group and maybe we can add some more value to our board.
F.
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08 C14, zx14 header and Muzzy duals, PCv/autotune. An inexpensive (relatively) way to monitor real time a/f data that maybe would plug in line between the sensor and the autotune unit would be nice. Dynajets LCD unit is in the $300 neighborhood.
Gary
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I would be interested.
My last bike was an FZ1 and the FZ1OA forum had some fantastic resources for PCV tuning. Some members had taken it upon themselves to put together a "map pack" zip file which had lots of custom maps that had been collected, averaged, etc. I was always tweaking maps on that bike.
Would love to see the turbo information on this forum too.
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I'm in!! I'd also be interested in some way to hook up my smart phone, sure would be nice to have the ability to change MAPS without carrying a laptop around..
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I need to learn more about the PCV, I just know how to install it. I would love to learn more about changing maps between MPG and max power to get the best of both worlds.
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I am interested. I have a PCV on my 08 with Area P slip-on and secondary butterflies removed. I am using the map provided by Jamie where I bought the PCV (forget his company) I would like to build an econo map and add a switch. If the econo map works out then I would be interested in improving the main map for more power.
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I am interested. I have a PCV on my 08 with Area P slip-on and secondary butterflies removed. I am using the map provided by Jamie where I bought the PCV (forget his company) I would like to build an econo map and add a switch. If the econo map works out then I would be interested in improving the main map for more power.
FuelMoto
Great customer service and great prices.
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Do we have any folks who want to do a PC 5 program it yourself sorta session? Modify or build your own fuel maps or load two maps, one performance and the other for mileage etc..
With or without Auto-tune function. Or maybe just understand how all this stuff works?
Fretka
Also... I still have the photos from the old turbo build thread (from the pre crash board), any interest in re-building that thread?
Yes, Yes, and Yes. Is that enough yes's? I would like to see the turbo thread resurrected as well.
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Not me... What a complete and utter waste of time....
Just Kidding, Great Idea!!!
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When does class start?
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No better time than the present;
Open-loop fuel injection- A fuel-air mixture system/device that utilizes a factory programmed set of parameters to deliver the correct A/F (air fuel) ratio to the injectors. This design uses no feedback from exhaust gas measurement (such as a O2 sensor) but instead refers to an imbedded look-up table for basic or raw fuel ratios which are then further refined (or trimmed) by input from various sensors. Sensors include air temp, airbox air pressure, rpm, crankshaft position, gear position etc. Depending upon what info these sensors report back to the ECU (engine control unit) the fuel delivered to the combustion chamber will be modified (trimmed) according to dwell or time the injector is in the on position. The set of basic parameters is known as a map and is not subject to alteration (fixed reference points) by any other means than the sensors and then only within factory set parameters.
This fixed map is divided into many base cells or points that are determined by throttle position and rpm (coarse sampling values). I've forgotten now but a map might contain as many as 256 differing cells or coarse base instructions. Each cell contains instructions on fuel injector on time that correlate to that discreet rpm/throttle position. Usually these cells are closer together in rpm and throttle position in the lower rpm range of a streetbike as part-throttle and lower rpm's are generally in greater use by street riders and also because part-throttle, sready-state engine operation is much more difficult to burn properly than large throttle acceleration.
Our C-14 is of the open-loop variety of digital fuel injection. It has no o2 sensor and relies strictly on these base map values then modified by appropriate sensors. In our stock system, any set of instructions reported back to the ECU (trims) must fall within the maximum or minimum values set by the base map or they will not be accommodated. In my opinion this type of system is somewhat more crude than the theoretically more fine tuning allowed by a closed-loop system.
This is a map table used by the PC5 software and shows each cell and how it corresponds to its specific RPM and throttle opening %.
Fretka
This attachment is a screen-shot and only intended to show how a digital map (whether it be a Kawasaki or PC 5) apportions the continuous rpm range into bite-sized, discreet chunks. The values shown here are Air Fuel Ratio targets and should not be used by anyone.
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Does anyone have the stock map so that we can compare?
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Jim, I think Fred Harmon has posted maps for his '10 on the cog site or his personal site. Someone who knows him may get his permission to use them here.
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Jim, I think Fred Harmon has posted maps for his '10 on the cog site or his personal site. Someone who knows him may get his permission to use them here.
Would the 08/09 be different than the 10s on upward?
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Good ?. Might have changed due to trac control.
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The maps in the ECU cannot be compared with the maps in a fuel adjusting unit like a Power Commander. They do not do the same thing.
The map in the ECU is meant to work alone to determine how much fuel is injected per engine power stroke, and will always increase the fuel metered with increasing RPM and increasing throttle opening. The numbers to the right of the chart are always larger and <somewhat> linear; at 50% throttle opening and 5,000 RPM there will be <around> twice the injector on time as there is at 50% throttle and 2,500 RPM (not really linear but tending towards that way).
A P.C. map adds or subtracts injector on time from the original ECU's generated on time. The P.C. map has no general direction or tendency as each cell stands alone and has no reference to any other cell; the cell at 50% throttle opening and 5,000 RPM may be -10 (reducing the fuel supplied by the ECU by 10%) while the cell at 50% throttle opening and 2,500 RPM may be +15. That does NOT mean there is more fuel supplied at 2,500 RPM; what it does mean is that the P.C. is slightly enriching what the ECU is calling for at 2,500 RPM and slightly leaning what the ECU is calling for at 5,000 RPM.
A P.C. map only works in conjunction with the ECU's map while the ECU's map can and usually is used alone (as all bikes without a P.C. are used).
Brian
Does anyone have the stock map so that we can compare?
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Excellent! :goodpost: But I must warn you that my brane limit for storing facts is nearly met which means I may lose something shortly.
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Excellent! :goodpost: But I must warn you that my brane limit for storing facts is nearly met which means I may lose something shortly.
As long as it doesn't have to do with a birthday, anniversary, or where you stashed your Tanqueray you will probably be ok. ;D
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I am starting with the basics so it might be a little slow at first.
Closed-loop DFI- Essentially the same as our open-loop with the addition of an extra sensor. This sensor is located in the exhaust stream close to the exhaust valves and is energized with small system voltage. This sensor is made of a reactive alloy (palladium and other materials) that cause a change in resistance when in the presence of O2, NOx and other normal exhaust constituents. You'll have to investigate the workings of the Lambda or Oxygen sensor to get better data than I can give here. The importance to the system of the O2 sensor is that it reports back to the ECU on the ACTUAL results that have occurred when the ECU has applied a command to change the AFR (air-fuel ratio) to some new setting.The O2 sensor does not in and of itself make any changes to the fuel mixture, it only informs the ECU of the results of the current AFR. In other words the ECU is no longer blind as it gets info back as to how successful the trims it made correspond to what the internal look-up table says should be correct.
This feedback allows further fine-tuning or trimming to the intake charge making it more closely adhere to the target table (look-up) that has been built by the programmer.
So far, so good. BUT.. the problem is WHAT values have been entered into the look-up, AFR target table. Are these values chosen to produce fewer pollutants? Better drivability? More horsepower etc...? Can this target table accommodate the addition of a different exhaust pipe? Air filter? Almost always the answer is NO, due to the over-riding need to pass emissions tests. The "envelope" of all possible air fuel ratios does not allow the ECU to include the most correct trimming to an engine that has been modified from it's intended configuration.
Clearly closed-loop digital fuel injection is more accurate than any other technology available to us. It has allowed engine configurations, efficiencies and flexibilities that were not previously available to us. I would go so far as to say that it has been the most important technology to come along in many decades.
Fretka
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I am starting with the basics so it might be a little slow at first.
Basics are good. Thank you. This is good stuff. Will there be a tie-in with an aftermarket ignition module in the advanced class?
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I'd like to get some of the basics out of the way first so that we can all know the terminology and how these systems interact with the sensors. As soon as we get this stuff out of the way we can get to the relevance of this stuff to each person and their unique situation. We can also compare the different products and services available to us. If someone has a question for a particular person, please mention that in your post.
Those who want to make changes to their FI should have any programs loaded in their 'puters ie. dynojet master panel for whatever product (PC5, wideband, Microtech, etc.) and first save the current map and then we can play with it without loosing any old maps or info.
Anything that I suggest can be reversed and can always be reset to your factory or existing maps. No need to be concerned with getting anything wrong, reverting to your original settings takes about 1 minute!
It is most probable that most of you don't need to change anything but in many cases we can change throttle response for the better, cold-start or just trim the map slightly to accommodate a pipe/filter change.
This PC5 DynoJet map program is very easy to use. We won't be using any tools either. If you do not have your PC software loaded go here...
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=PCV (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=PCV)
and download the power commander 5 software. Bookmark this page as it has other goodies we can use.
Fretka
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So far we have talked about open-loop and closed-loop FI.
Both use a read only, non-programmable base map or look-up table designed by mother Kawasaki to give us the best possible compromise in ride-ability.
But what we also need to keep in mind is that this map is not designed to be alterable, hence we are stuck with what we got.
This is where we introduce some method of changing this base map in a way that makes our individual bike run better.
Current, widely used methods of tailoring the base map are:
1. Physical removal and opening the ECU to modify the map by discarding the factory map and re-writing it with our own data, (Re-flashing).
Examples would be Guhl, Dynotronics and probably others unknown to me.
2. Aftermarket modules that alter the ECU output signal by modifying it in a way we choose.
Examples would be DynoJet, Techlusion and again, many others.
3. Replacing the ECU with a factory built racing-only unit.
No examples relevant to our C-14.
Again...these are all the same as they provide a means of accessing the otherwise un-accessible base fuel map.
Fretka
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Definitly interested in rebuilding the turbo thread!!! I so want to do this! This info on the Fuel mapping is good stuff as well... Keep it up.
One thing I will add is I have an 08 and put the PC5 on it (instead of the PC3) even though it was not listed as compatible it is.
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I'm a little confused though... the PC adds offsets to the base map I understand that. How does one access and view the base map if they reflash the ECU with no PC?
This is most excellent stuff by the way... my mouth is watering....
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I'm a little confused though... the PC adds offsets to the base map I understand that. How does one access and view the base map if they reflash the ECU with no PC?
This is most excellent stuff by the way... my mouth is watering....
To the best of my knowledge, there is no way for the end user to access the ECU, you are limited to whatever the person that does the re-flash can provide. While I suspect that some or all of the re-flashing that is being done is using PC 5 maps as the basis of their data, I do not know that as a fact.
Which brings us to a crucial point in both procedures, how good or correct is the data that is being programmed into your ECU?
So the method used to change the parameters of the injection system is not the primary concern, it's how good or correct or relevant to your own bike and riding conditions is that data!
Ca-ca in = Ca-ca out
Fretka
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( This is an attempt to resurrect an old topic and at this point some years have elapsed).
Brian.......and I've forgotten the other pholks who have experience with this subject, It would be great if we could get other's knowledge as well. I'm hardly the last word on this subject and can only give my "take" on this stuff. Lastly, as many may remember I have a declared preference for the Dynojet system as opposed to re-flashing, so keep that in mind.
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My quick take on this http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,48572.0.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,48572.0.html)
I gather this is a way to re-flash your ECU yourself. The vendor unlocks the code and provides a way to enter maps by yourself in the comfort of your own home.
Kind of a "hybrid" between a send-in re-flash and a DynoJet controller. My only ? here is he states that his method is better than an add-on module but does not provide any proof or basis for this statement. I will assume he means that he does not like the extra wiring that is involved with this method. It compares with the re-flash but adds the ability to load differing canned maps without sending off the ECU to the vendor. So with added complexity comes added flexibility and conversely as opposed to the PC5.
Really the whole argument as to which method to modify your ECU comes down to one thing,
Re-Flash by outside vendor: Quick, easy with no ability to modify parameters (no fine-tuning, uses canned maps)
Woolich (?) method : Learning curve is faster but limited to other maps tailored to someone else's bike, (no fine-tuning, uses canned maps)
(Both of the above methods give you no way to know whether the premade or canned maps are good bad or indifferent concerning your specific needs)
PC5 (type) add-on controller : Requires some limited computer proficiency and a willingness to learn the basics to access the almost unlimited fine-tuning availability if you want to tailor-make a map for your specific needs. Can also be used with premade or "canned maps".
Of course there are further considerations but this is how I see it.
Fretka
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Great- go at it! I too share the view that the PC V is the better way to go, especially if coupled with an O2 monitoring system and auto tune module. That said, I can certainly understand the attraction that an ECU re-flash has- no mechanical work to be done at all, and no knowledge at all required to make full use of the re-flash. But, as this is a thread about Power Commanders, no need to get off track on the back- and- forth of that discussion IMO.
And unfortunately I do not even have a PC V but a PC III instead, so I cannot make use of the O2 sensor (which I already have!). But almost all of the function and all of the method of a PC V is used in a PC III so I might chime in with something if I can.
Good thread and it is sure to provide some useful info. for those who have or may procure a Power Commander.
Brian
( This is an attempt to resurrect an old topic and at this point some years have elapsed).
Brian.......and I've forgotten the other pholks who have experience with this subject, It would be great if we could get other's knowledge as well. I'm hardly the last word on this subject and can only give my "take" on this stuff. Lastly, as many may remember I have a declared preference for the Dynojet system as opposed to re-flashing, so keep that in mind.