Question I've got: No start....Well, here it is....

[RedWyvern]

Darn, I thought we might have something with your first sentence, but then read the next paragraph.... (Arcing doesn't prove the relay is working.  Does the starter and the battery... by shorting the 2 wires you didn't check that the coil isn't open, or that the relay is not binded/frozen inside.)  But then you said hot you hotwire it up by the steering head, and everything engages and fires.  That rules out the relay, so in a way it's one thing you can be sure of, but darn, tisn't it.

Ok, you mentioned 3 sets of wiring, and with the info above about arcing...with a harness plugged in,  if you short the solder leads behind the starter button, does it fix it?  If not, It indicates an open from the switch to the connector by the steering head.  It is possible the male or female connector in the big connector has moved a bit out of reach, or opened enough not to make a good contact (or is tarnished).  I'd have to say it would be the connection in the connector on the bike, not the 3 others, as odds are one of those would've worked, if not two.

Those big white connectors can be a trick to get into to make a connection, but if you jumper from the head one to the handlebar one and try the starter, you might figure out which of the 2 wires it is (if it is a bad connection there).

I know you arc'd the head one, but this doesn't necessarily mean the opposing pin from the handlebar connector is getting a connection, unless you used a shorting wire of say female to female (again, I'm not sure if the steering head connection has male or females in it).  Jamming a wire in there can easily make a connection even though the spade connector may not.

Something to try...  if this is confusing send me a PM w/ your phone number, might sound clearer talking it out.

The right handlebar only has the kill and starter buttons for the wiring.  Did he install the other handlbar switch assemblies or just leave them dangling (so rules out making a contact with the handlebar/ground)?

Mark

[timmerz]

Yeah, now you're moving down the path we have been treading...Jim, my mechanic, was pretty convinced when we got to this point that there was an issue with the receiving connector on the harness, so I bought another harness off Ebay and he spliced the connector from the newer harness onto my bike, and we still have the same problem...we can engage the starter by bridging the hot and the starter wire at that connector, but when we install any one of the 3 start buttons nothing happens....
Do you know if there is any important ground contact on the handlebar for the start switch mechanism? That's the only part that's been left dangling, and I think we tried each both on and off the bar....

[RedWyvern]

Jim def sounds good.  Some mechanics have a hard time w/ the electrical.

Handlebar - no, there is no ground that gets made by attaching the switch assembly.  I was concerned that maybe something was somehow shorting something to the handlebar, but leaving it dangling ruled that out.

I'm saying "huh" about the connector.  You replaced it, and still... hmmmm.  Trying to think, but nothing is coming on that one.

When you say you bridge the hot at the connector, is the handlebar switch assy (will refer to as switch assy) connector there, or disconnected?  I'm guessing he is arcing by shorting in the connector from the steering head, as it is the easiest way to make contact.

Can you make the connection with the switch assy, and then try to short through the back of the handlebar connector?  (The side the wires come out of).  Does it start?  If so, that is def pointing you towards the switch assy.  If not, it's in the connector.

I imagine he has ohm'd from the switch assy connector to each associated solder connection on the switch.  This would prove the wiring is good.  I also imagine he has ohm'd each switch to make sure it is opening and closing, proving them good.

I find it odd 3 switch assy's are bad in the same way.  It's just too unlikely.  And based on what I've read about you and Jim it's safe to say the killswitch hasn't accidentally been left off.

I'll let this bother me some more and hope I might come up with something else   

[RedWyvern]

ManofBlues, I trust no one with jumper cables. Sharing some other info not to insult anyone but to help those who haven't jumped a lot... I've seen reverse polarity, people say they know pos from neg, had one idiot hand me the jaws of pain open and let it go on my hand (military, in the dark, so I couldn't see he had it open.  Man did that hurt).   My biggest concern is the positive clamp popping off and making contact with ground.  These crappy connectors w/a 1/4" or so tiny bolt that you can't get a bite on are real good at having a clamp pop free.  Also, you can get a good clamp bite, but when they let go of the clamp the weight of the wire makes it pop off.  And this is where there is access room - on a motorcycle the access to the pos terminal or wire on the relay is very tight and always near frame, meaning ground.  I hold the pos clamp the entire time.

Oh, yeh, even seen people hand me the clamps touching each other in one hand... while the other end is being connected to a battery.

Again, I trust no one! 

One other tip.  If you jump someone, do not start your car.  If they have a short (battery, alternator or regulator), it can short out your charging system, which typically lasts about a poof, and then opens.  Fortunately my neighbor bought me a new voltage regulator a week later when I found my battery was no longer being charged and had lost it's stored juice.

Never have a car running when jumping a motorcycle, or even run the car to charge it (if you do, do it only for a few minutes).

All that said, crappy cables are just that.  If you are going to buy a set, invest in them.  Small dia wire can't carry much current, and current draw is big from a starter.  If they are small, let the good car charge the bad battery, if you dare (again, damage to your car could result), for a bit, then shut the car and try starting the other.

Also, the longer the wire, the larger it needs to be.
And last, I hate painted clamps.  Some of the newer ones are all nice and plastic encased... just watch as often one of the two jaws in it are not electrically connected.  They are just there for bite/grip.  So if you clamp your starter relay where one jaw is on the nut and the other is biting the rubber mount or something not part of the positive wiring, you don't get a connection.

Mark

Mark

[timmerz]

{Jim def sounds good.  Some mechanics have a hard time w/ the electrical.}

He's worth his weight in gold, for me...I am reasonably intelligent, and a reasonably good bass player, but f*ck me runnin' if I could even just do one little mechanical thing on my own stuff without screwing it up! Some guys can do it and make it look completely simple, then I try the same thing and the bolt breaks, or the threads strip, or whatever...

{When you say you bridge the hot at the connector, is the handlebar switch assy (will refer to as switch assy) connector there, or disconnected?  I'm guessing he is arcing by shorting in the connector from the steering head, as it is the easiest way to make contact.}

What I mean when I say we are arcing the hot and the starter wire there at the connector that the "switch assy" plugs into is that Jim has a short piece of 12g stranded with both ends stripped back 1/2", one end in the hot of the connector, the other end in the connector spade of the wire straight to the starter or the relay, wherever it goes, so effectively bypassing everything else...we are pulling the hot and the starter connection from the same connector, thereby proving that we have juice all the way up to there...
Jim has the bike up at his shop now, so he's blessed with all the electrical gadgets he was without when we were working on it here at my place on the patio, so I'm expecting one of those "Hey, you know what it was? You're never gonna guess!" calls anytime now. {fingers crossed!}

....and yeah, we are both super-cognizant of the possibilities of over-looking the kill switch...in fact, when we started this whole fiasco, I initally called him saying I thought the kill swith had gone bad, the bike just shut down, then started up briefly, then shut down completely......I imagine he's up there with his ohm-meter right now, verifying juice at the kill switch and at the button hot side, then going from there...again, fingers crossed!
 

[RedWyvern]

LOL timmer... I know we've all broken a valuable bolt, etc.  Or gotten everything bolted back up only to find a spare part sitting out.  Even did it last week... changed chain and sprockets with a friend on his VStrom.  He had never done it, and with some encouragement, wanted to try.  We dove in (actually, I played management, he busted knuckles).  The hardest part (besides not grabbing a tool and helping) was riveting the master link on... I'm used to the clip on a master link, so it was new to me too.  That part took way too long.

Once we got it all buttoned up I'm wiping and putting away my tools and find a safety nut that goes over the front sprocket nut sitting next to the 24mm socket.  It even looked like a socket, hence us missing it (and it not being with all the other bolts).  We laughed, I told'm I'd get it (he was a bit slow, but of course we all are the first time.  The link took so long we were both on cinderella curfew and I had to hurry to get it on and back together).

Thing is, a shop would've either left the bolt off or charged the time for making it right.

Mark

[KenE]

I once had some weirdness with dirty  connections on the battery terminals.
Totally intermittent- crank/run fine, not crank/not  start with no rhyme or reason.
Traced connections, resoldered the J box, dialectric grease on steel wooled connectors, replaced several connectors, checked everything multiple times... mine was BCCS- battery cable corrosion, subtle, and it made me crazy for a while.  Batt just didn't look bad... Finally make sure everything was SHINY CLEAN, top/ bottom, and threads of battery posts as well as the cable ends and it solved the problem. I felt kind of sheepish after all my work on the problem...

HTH,
KenE

[timmerz]

Well, the decision got made....tear this biatch down! Since I have a newer wiring harness, Jim is stripping the bike down to start from scratch and replace the entire wiring harness, then build everything on top piece by piece, so we can see when the problem begins to happen, if it does at all with the new harness...Jim is betting on worn wires being the culprit here, and I'm agreeing...I just can't figure any other cause that would make sense...gotta be one of the sections of the harness that's right up against the frame backbone or one of the frame corners, something like that...

[MAN OF BLUES]

....Another quick thing to check is the condition of the black/yellow ground wire attached to the mounting bolt on the left hand coil, it often becomes damaged at the ring lug, and can refuse to allow proper starting current to latch the solenoid.

did you look closely at the spot I mentioned?
what was the outcome??

[timmerz]

Sorry, MOB...I made the decision to tear it down and replace the entire wiring harness and whatever associated wiring was necessary to ensure the problem went away before we got to check your suggestion...I'll definitely bring it to Jim's attention this weekend so he can check it out as he's piecing it back together, though...thanks a mil!

[timmerz]

Well, after the complete teardown and re-build with all-new wiring, the problem finally became apparent: ignition switch.

I haven't heard the details yet, I just know that he has installed an extra used one he has there and I will be using it until I can get one off Ebay for myself, but the bike starts and runs well with the new one in place.....so!
Good things happened to the rest of the bike while the wiring was being replaced: new rear disc, rear caliper rebuilt, fluid new, pads new...front brake pads replaced, front and rear wheel bearings replaced, something with the carbs where they had to be removed and new boots bought to faccilitate re-installing, carb synching, valve adjustment, fan switch replaced, and finally, used inner fairings installed where there were none before...so all in all, we are talking a completely different bike than the one I helped him load into his truck 2 weeks ago!