Author Topic: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........  (Read 15621 times)

Offline x9rider

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 03:33:04 PM »
top block sliders ordered. The canyon bars just don't do anything for me.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Offline maxtog

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
top block sliders ordered. The canyon bars just don't do anything for me.

They will do something for you in a hard fall over.  I suggest you order/install the McE [canyon] small rears to go along with the Top Blocks if you want real protection for the bags to go along with the great looks of the Top Blocks.
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Offline ZG

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 05:19:04 PM »
top block sliders ordered.


 8) :thumbs:


Grats! :chugbeer:






Son of Pappy

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 06:10:20 PM »
C of G of the bike stays the same. Riders C of G rises when standing on the pegs. Control points shift from handle bars/seat to handle bars/pegs giving quicker control of bike since you are able to move bike independent of rider.
Carried COG is indeed lowered and your weight becomes suspended weight as the knees and arms flex to absorb the bikes undulations ;D  Seated the bikes suspension is forced to counteract itself and the riders weight, with said weight locked onto the seat, which is higher than the pegs.  If a rider were to lock their legs, arms, back, and head when standing then the COG has risen.  Yes, I have seen many students lock themselves when upright, they just don't trust the technique and fear sets in, causing extreme tension.  Simple physics :o

Offline gPink

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 06:25:32 PM »
If you raise the mass, your body by standing, your bodys' C of G has to also raise. How could this not be?

Offline Conrad

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 04:20:40 AM »
Carried COG is indeed lowered and your weight becomes suspended weight as the knees and arms flex to absorb the bikes undulations ;D  Seated the bikes suspension is forced to counteract itself and the riders weight, with said weight locked onto the seat, which is higher than the pegs.  If a rider were to lock their legs, arms, back, and head when standing then the COG has risen.  Yes, I have seen many students lock themselves when upright, they just don't trust the technique and fear sets in, causing extreme tension.  Simple physics :o

If you raise the mass, your body by standing, your bodys' C of G has to also raise. How could this not be?

Sorry C but you're wrong. The riders weight may be somewhat decoupled from the bike but the CG of the 'system' is higher when the rider stands on the pegs. Simple physics.   ;)
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Offline x9rider

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 06:59:53 AM »
They will do something for you in a hard fall over.  I suggest you order/install the McE [canyon] small rears to go along with the Top Blocks if you want real protection for the bags to go along with the great looks of the Top Blocks.

If I go down at speed, i've got bigger problems than whether my sliders will protect the bike or not. This is specifically for tipovers when stationary or slightly moving, where I am breaking the fall with my hands on the bars the whole time, and my feet planted on the ground. With the main blocks and the TB rear sliders, this should work in the specific situation I am buying them for.

I looked at the hard bag protection that the rear canyon bars offer, and they definitely do the job, but I just don't like the look at all. My issues with the look may change down the road, but for now, I can't get over the appearance of them
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Offline chap

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 07:56:58 AM »
If I go down at speed, i've got bigger problems than whether my sliders will protect the bike or not. This is specifically for tipovers when stationary or slightly moving, where I am breaking the fall with my hands on the bars the whole time, and my feet planted on the ground. With the main blocks and the TB rear sliders, this should work in the specific situation I am buying them for.

I looked at the hard bag protection that the rear canyon bars offer, and they definitely do the job, but I just don't like the look at all. My issues with the look may change down the road, but for now, I can't get over the appearance of them

I brought the rear bag protector bars with my Canyon Cages. I didn't install them, because i didn't like the look without the bags on (I rarely have the bags on).

So Of course by bike tipped over with the bags on one day. There was a Oh @#$$ moment. But when I righted the bike and inspected. The bags never touched the ground. The fromt cages kept enough clearance. I may have just got lucky, but just saying the rears (In my case) can be left off.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2013, 08:32:45 AM »
If I go down at speed, i've got bigger problems than whether my sliders will protect the bike or not. This is specifically for tipovers when stationary or slightly moving, where I am breaking the fall with my hands on the bars the whole time, and my feet planted on the ground. With the main blocks and the TB rear sliders, this should work in the specific situation I am buying them for.

I looked at the hard bag protection that the rear canyon bars offer, and they definitely do the job, but I just don't like the look at all. My issues with the look may change down the road, but for now, I can't get over the appearance of them

Here's to hoping that your bike only tips over in the specific situations that you are buying protection for.    :chugbeer:
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Son of Pappy

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2013, 08:51:43 AM »
Sorry C but you're wrong. The riders weight may be somewhat decoupled from the bike but the CG of the 'system' is higher when the rider stands on the pegs. Simple physics.   ;)
Just where is the weight being supported/carried?  In a static, parked position you would be correct, but once in motion the changing dynamics and suspension of weight lowers the COG ;D

Offline Conrad

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2013, 09:33:56 AM »
Just where is the weight being supported/carried?  In a static, parked position you would be correct, but once in motion the changing dynamics and suspension of weight lowers the COG ;D

Say what? You're saying that at rest the CG moves up when the rider stands on the pegs but once in motion the CG moves down?
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Son of Pappy

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2013, 10:05:35 AM »
Yes ;D  The weight in effect becomes live weight.  Seated the weight is dead ;)  I wish I had some kinda eloquent engineering degree to 'splain it better, what I do know is that I can seperate my weight from the bikes weight when in motion to varying degrees.  The weight being carried by the bike is down low on the pegs. 

Offline Conrad

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2013, 10:15:43 AM »
I'm not all that good at explaining things either, just ask my wife.    :o

Since we don't have Bill Nye the science guy as a member perhaps Brian will be along soon with some insight as to why I'm right and you are not.    ;)
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Son of Pappy

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2013, 10:19:12 AM »
Never argue with the retired guy, he has all the time in the world to argue ;) :o 8)  I think Brian is working on incorporating KIPASS into an FJR at the moment :-X

Offline x9rider

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2013, 10:44:36 AM »
Here's to hoping that your bike only tips over in the specific situations that you are buying protection for.    :chugbeer:

I hope so too. There is no question that the canyon bars do exactly what they are meant to do, it's just me with my appearance issues that are stopping me from going in that direction. I am trying to keep the bike as close to the "unprotected" look as possible.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2013, 10:50:23 AM »
I hope so too. There is no question that the canyon bars do exactly what they are meant to do, it's just me with my appearance issues that are stopping me from going in that direction. I am trying to keep the bike as close to the "unprotected" look as possible.

I understand that completely. There's no doubt that the bike looks WAY better without the CCs than it does with them.
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Son of Pappy

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2013, 10:54:36 AM »
To avoid the bathroom bar look I just added the fronts, painted to suit my likes.  Blend in nicely.  I have no idea how well they work and hope to never find out.

Offline ZG

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2013, 10:56:47 AM »
There's no doubt that the bike looks WAY better without the CCs than it does with them.


+1...  :goodpost:

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: I learned the C14 is "top heavy" the hard way.........
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2013, 11:44:13 AM »
Been there, done that regarding the Fudger: 



Sure it ran better, looked better but even KiPass couldn't do much about the lack of the sixth gear....

Youse guys- arguing about standing up on a motorcycle.... but the short answer is you are both right.

The physics part is where Conrad et al. are correct. Standing up moves the COG of the entire vehicle up. It also increases the moment, which would seem to make the bike harder to move but really doesn't because this is where Chet is right-

The word he used is great- uncoupled. Standing or even lifting up enough so the only thing touching the bike are your hands and feet really do uncouple the rider from the bike so the bike can 'dance' under the rider and make faster and smaller corrections when riding over rough ground. It even works on a pig as heavy as a C-14 when going over a gravel road. The observation is correct but the application of the 'it lowers the COG' or 'it lowers the effective COG' is not; it works but not because the COG moves but rather because the bike and rider are much more free to move independently and each can move faster, again allowing the bike to bump and bounce along without having to rock the rider back and forth also. It also gives the rider a better ride just because he / she does not have to jostle back and forth with each small movement of the bike.

I have seen the 'lowering the COG' idea before, even printed in a magazine with line drawings to show how it works. Some even show that when riding on an angled or banked surface, one should stand and then put all of his / her weight on the outside (where the ground is lower) peg to 'drive the tires into the bank'. Somewhere in merry old England, Newton is spinning in his grave and thinking 'buy them books, they eat the pages.' Standing up on a motorcycle moves the overall COG up.... always (it IS a rule after all). Putting all your weight on one peg, without changing the angle of the bike, does nothing. Not to worry though, such terribly mistaken ideas and even worse, much worse, have actually been patented. Sometimes it is really hard to spot the rule (read: physical laws of the universe we live in) violation right away. At least it is not 'as wrong' as thinking KiPass is not wonderful and the answer to all the world's problems....

Brian

Never argue with the retired guy, he has all the time in the world to argue ;) :o 8)  I think Brian is working on incorporating KIPASS into an FJR at the moment :-X

I'm not all that good at explaining things either, just ask my wife.    :o

Since we don't have Bill Nye the science guy as a member perhaps Brian will be along soon with some insight as to why I'm right and you are not.    ;)
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