Author Topic: Throttle body sync  (Read 21293 times)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 05:52:57 PM »
did ya ever see me post my preferance for synch tools..?
google the TwinMax....

 :hitfan:

and sell that p.o.s on ebay.
just saying..... 8)

send me your adress, and I'll send you mine to use.....and if you don't send it back, I'll hunt you down....
but, when you use it, and see how it works, you have to spread the word....
open deal...

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2011, 06:29:52 PM »
I cannot comment on the quality of the tool but the easiest way I know of to get rid of the voids (really air bubbles) in tubing is to blow <gently> into each tube until all the fluid is forced to the bottom reservoir. When you stop blowing and the fluid rises again, it will do so in a solid 'bar' and without any air bubbles. Do one tube at a time. It should only take about 5 seconds each tube.

This same method works for mercury manometers also and they too tend to get air bubbles caught in them. And it is very safe as there is no possibility of ingesting any mercury, or even the anti- freeze in your gauge.

I cannot believe Haroldo has not been by this thread yet. I sure hope he is reading it though....  ;D

Brian



This is not going as smoothly as I had hoped  ::)
I hooked up my Motion Pro ProSync syncronization tool to calibrate it, carefully following the instructions. I immediately noticed the adjustment screws would not turn smoothly at all. When I fired up the engine and attemped to calibrate I got these gaps.

<snip>

After following the instructions for getting rid of the gaps I have many more gaps.

<snip>

I think this tool is junk. I will see if I can get a better one quickly. Any suggestions? I recall someone else used a Carb Tune.
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Offline lather

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2011, 07:22:22 AM »
did ya ever see me post my preferance for synch tools..?
google the TwinMax....

 :hitfan:

and sell that p.o.s on ebay.
just saying..... 8)

send me your adress, and I'll send you mine to use.....and if you don't send it back, I'll hunt you down....
but, when you use it, and see how it works, you have to spread the word....
open deal...
Thanks for the kind offer MOB. I would like to take you up but I am unclear how to use it for theC14 since the first step in the manual calls for comparing all 4 cylindars:
"If any vacuum is not within specifications, first synchronize
the balance of the left (#1, #2 throttle valves) and
right (#3, #4 throttle valves) assemblies.
Example:
#1: 240 mmHg
#2: 250 mmHg
#3: 230 mmHg
#4: 240 mmHg •With the engine at the correct idle speed, equalize higher
vacuum of #1 or #2 (for example 250 mmHg) to higher
vacuum of #3 or #4 (for example 240 mmHg) by turning
the center adjusting screw [A]."
How would you do this with the Twin Max?
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Offline lather

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2011, 07:28:37 AM »
I cannot comment on the quality of the tool but the easiest way I know of to get rid of the voids (really air bubbles) in tubing is to blow <gently> into each tube until all the fluid is forced to the bottom reservoir. When you stop blowing and the fluid rises again, it will do so in a solid 'bar' and without any air bubbles. Do one tube at a time. It should only take about 5 seconds each tube.

This same method works for mercury manometers also and they too tend to get air bubbles caught in them. And it is very safe as there is no possibility of ingesting any mercury, or even the anti- freeze in your gauge.

I cannot believe Haroldo has not been by this thread yet. I sure hope he is reading it though....  ;D

Brian
I have tried tapping, swinging and obscene verbal threats with NO result. Gentle blowing does slowly give slight improvement but its not gonna work in my lifetime.
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline lt1

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2011, 10:22:44 AM »
My Motion Pro sync tool.  I had the same problem, and bought the small refill kit for about $5-6.  It is easy enough to refill when you follow the directions.

Knowing it is just anti-freeze would have been a bit cheaper, but not much.  You still need a small dropper to fill the resevoirs.

I do not believe that you will be able to shake, blow or suck the air bubbles out without disassembly.  If you are careful, you may be able to back out the adjustment screws completely, gently pressurize the lines (ie blow) to move all the fluid to the resevoirs, level the resevoirs out with a few drops of anti-freeze, and reassemble.  Try to keep the fluid out of the threads.  Then sync the tool with the 4 lines T'eed up to a single vacuum source by adjusting the screws.  The closer to the exact same volume of fluid in each resevoir, the wider the range of accuracy will be on the gauge.
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Offline lather

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2011, 11:02:40 AM »
My Motion Pro sync tool.  I had the same problem, and bought the small refill kit for about $5-6.  It is easy enough to refill when you follow the directions.

Knowing it is just anti-freeze would have been a bit cheaper, but not much.  You still need a small dropper to fill the resevoirs.

I do not believe that you will be able to shake, blow or suck the air bubbles out without disassembly.  If you are careful, you may be able to back out the adjustment screws completely, gently pressurize the lines (ie blow) to move all the fluid to the resevoirs, level the resevoirs out with a few drops of anti-freeze, and reassemble.  Try to keep the fluid out of the threads.  Then sync the tool with the 4 lines T'eed up to a single vacuum source by adjusting the screws.  The closer to the exact same volume of fluid in each resevoir, the wider the range of accuracy will be on the gauge.
I tried blowing again after removing the restrictors. with about 20 minutes alternately blowing and sucking I managed to get the fluid back into the resorvoirs. I then proceeded to calibrate again after replacing the restrictors. This time I was able to calibrate succesfully with the engine idling although to get the colums level I ended up with the fluid near the top. And when I turned off the engine the fluid freaked out and the gaps were back worse than ever. I am giving up on the Motion Pro.
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Offline lather

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2011, 11:10:57 AM »
More...
It looks like the hardest part of TB sync will be adjusting the center adjusting screw. So even tho I don't yet have a working manometer I tried to see if I could do it. Massively troublesome to get bothe the mirror and flashlight bith secured in a position I could see the screw and still have room for the 90o screwdriver. But I finally did it, turning the screw just enough to confirm the driver blade was seated. Guess what. The engine is now idling much smoother than before!

I am tempted to quit while I'm ahead.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2011, 11:15:35 AM »
I have never see that Motion Pro tool but I wonder how they could have missed so badly on physics? The four screws under the tubes look ominous though- there should be nothing to adjust. I am still using a pair of mercury sticks (manometers) and to be honest this thread is not making me want to move away from them anytime soon.

Brian


I tried blowing again after removing the restrictors. with about 20 minutes alternately blowing and sucking I managed to get the fluid back into the resorvoirs. I then proceeded to calibrate again after replacing the restrictors. This time I was able to calibrate succesfully with the engine idling although to get the colums level I ended up with the fluid near the top. And when I turned off the engine the fluid freaked out and the gaps were back worse than ever. I am giving up on the Motion Pro.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2011, 11:24:09 AM »
It looks like you can buy mercury based carb. manometers still- you have to be careful with them and not spill the mercury, and especially don't suck it into the engine with violent throttle movements, but they work extremely well and there is no frustration factor. Just a thought.

Brian

More...
It looks like the hardest part of TB sync will be adjusting the center adjusting screw. So even tho I don't yet have a working manometer I tried to see if I could do it. Massively troublesome to get bothe the mirror and flashlight bith secured in a position I could see the screw and still have room for the 90o screwdriver. But I finally did it, turning the screw just enough to confirm the driver blade was seated. Guess what. The engine is now idling much smoother than before!

I am tempted to quit while I'm ahead.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline lather

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2011, 11:44:15 AM »
Since I have three multicylindar bikes I might as well invest in a tool I will be happy with.
Looks like the Carbtune and TwinMax are both good  (non fluid, hard to F' up) options although I don't fully understand how the Twin Max works and especially how it will get the job done on the C14 with the center adjusting procedure as spelled out in the manual.

As for the motion pro tool, when I turn the calibrating screws they feel  very unsmooth. I suspect poor workmanship.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 12:06:23 PM »
Just my opinion but.... I would not buy or use any tool with fewer readouts than the number of cylinders that the bike has. I synch. six cylinder engines with two separate four tube manometers side by side. As these work on physics rather than calibration or adjustment, as long as they are at the same vertical height, all tubes will read correctly even across two manometers. Four cylinder vacuum gauges are easy enough to get that I would not consider a twin gauge and jumping between two cylinders with each gauge. When you make an adjustment on one T.B. or the balance screw between T.B. #'s 2 and 3, ALL the T.B. vacuum levels will change. It is really pretty important to watch all cylinders at the same time. For example, say #3 is high: as you are adjusting that one down, all the others will rise in vacuum and not necessarily evenly either. So if you cannot watch the other three, you would not know which one is highest and lowest.

I believe the carbtune tool uses sticks of metal (a hard metal, not liquid mercury) that are drawn up in the tubes by venture vacuum. As long as the metal sticks and the tubes are all made to very close tolerances, that tool should work fine. It would be easy enough to connect all four tubes to one vacuum line and check the calibration although there really is not any adjustment.

Mercury manometers have been around forever because they work so well. And they work on pure physics without any need or even the ability to calibrate them. As long as there is gravity on Earth, mercury manometers are self calibrating and extremely accurate.  Yes mercury is toxic but only if it 'gets away'; if the manometers are handled <reasonably> carefully the mercury will not spill. We all handle a lot of gasoline pretty freely without any repercussions as long as we are reasonably careful with the stuff. I understand the move away from mercury balance sticks and really it is a good idea but still the original mercury types work very well although they do demand more care than a similar device carrying something like anti- freeze (ethyl glycol) or colored alcohol.

Even four vacuum gauges in a row will work well as long as they all calibrate the same. The problem with this is that very inexpensive gauges often do not read the same and there is no way to correct for this.

Brian



Since I have three multicylindar bikes I might as well invest in a tool I will be happy with.
Looks like the Carbtune and TwinMax are both good  (non fluid, hard to F' up) options although I don't fully understand how the Twin Max works and especially how it will get the job done on the C14 with the center adjusting procedure as spelled out in the manual.

As for the motion pro tool, when I turn the calibrating screws they feel  very unsmooth. I suspect poor workmanship.
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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2011, 12:20:26 PM »
Cartoon tool? ;)   ;D

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2011, 12:24:11 PM »
Speelcheckas! Spelled correctly but choose the wrong word. That is just one of the many reasons computers will never, ever catch on.

Brian


Cartoon tool? ;)   ;D
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2011, 10:04:04 AM »
So how did this turn out? Did you finish? Is the bike back together? ????

Brian



<snip>

What have I gotten myself into :'(
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Offline stevewfl

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2011, 10:06:46 AM »
How do we know when the throttlebodies need syncing?  Mine is at 39,000 miles.  Is this one of those deals such as the plugs....book says do it and its a joke?

Mine ran strong in the desert as an ADV bike too.  108 degrees and at speeds of "idling". Maybe mine don't need syncing? This was last week:


It also ran strong at 12,000 feet in the sky.  This was up there a week and a half ago:


Mine has a bit of a rough idle. I have had it die on me a few during low speed manouvers, once causing me to drop the bike. If I didn't have any issues I defintely would not try this.

Thanks for the explanation...  I was really wondering because i didn't do mine at the 25,000 valave adjustment either!
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Offline lather

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2011, 01:59:42 PM »
So how did this turn out? Did you finish? Is the bike back together? ????

Brian
THE SYNC is on hold. I ordered a Morgan Carbtune. I hope it will arrive in about a week! Today I picked up a nice big inspection mirror which should help. I may have figured out the main problem with the Motion Pro tool but I will wait on the Morgan since I have spent the $. Even if I can get the Motion Pro to work I would not trust its accuracy.
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Offline Fearless

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2011, 07:24:10 PM »
Wild Bill,

Besides removing the left side panel, did you have to remove anything else? What did you use to make the adjustments? Did you have to use a mirror to see what you were doing? What size tubing did you use, and how do you cap them off when you are done with the sync process?

Thanks in advance

I was able to install the hoses from the left side without removing the tank or the valve cover. I used extra long needlenose pliers from harbor freight

Bill
2008 C14 - Flies out, Area-P full system, PCV

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2011, 08:05:00 PM »
I won't answer for Bill but I have seen his set up and it is <slick>. Way slicker than just dangling the hoses on the left hand side. But it is Bill's story to tell and maybe include a photo or two.

And Bill has a closed- loop video device that he uses to do the actual synch. itself which is even slicker than the vacuum hose routing.

Brian


Wild Bill,

Besides removing the left side panel, did you have to remove anything else? What did you use to make the adjustments? Did you have to use a mirror to see what you were doing? What size tubing did you use, and how do you cap them off when you are done with the sync process?

Thanks in advance
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2011, 04:15:13 AM »
I was able to install the hoses from the left side without removing the tank or the valve cover. I used extra long needlenose pliers from harbor freight

Bill

Ooooh, I like those pliers.  Could possibly be used to get those pesky nose hairs...
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2011, 04:04:53 PM »
Maybe but after that you'd better run pretty quick 'cause it tends to put people off when you do that to them.

Brian


Ooooh, I like those pliers.  Could possibly be used to get those pesky nose hairs...
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