Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Restless on May 24, 2011, 11:52:17 AM
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Did a search on the site but obviously due to the recent crash, I wasn't able to find much.
I'm slowly building an inventory of "quality" tools for the bike and I'm looking for a good torque wrench. I've been doing a lot of research on this lately and I've looked at Sears (read some pretty negative reviews on Craftsman torque wrenches as of late) and Snap-On (CDI is also a Snap-On brand but less expensive) , and recently the C2 Split Beam torque wrench by Precision Instruments.
I also realize that there may be a couple of different wrenches required (i.e. inch # and Ft #) to handle all the torque ranges for the C14 so, that being said, what torque wrench do you guys own and which would you buy today if you didn't have one?
Thanks.... :feedback:
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I have a Craftsman mini-torque 3/8" wrench that works on everything I need except the axles. I can torque down the good stuff just fine with the Craftsman.
Might get a bigger one at a rummage sale or somewhere just to have...
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Back when I was a professional mechanic (OSSA was a popular brand then) I tested my fancy, high dollar SnapOn torque wrench against one of those cheesy long pointer, flex bar type torque wrenches. The SnapOn dealer had a nifty torque wrench calibration box. The cheesy needle type was just as accurate as the expensive SnapOn. He was not too happy about the results. I still have both. I have to get the SnapOn re-calibrated every now and then. The cheese is always ready to go. The SnapOn does have a cool box.
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I don't have any scientific data to back up my following statement(s) but here goes. I use torque wrenches in the middleish of their range and have never had a bolt fall out. Does this mean it is better than another? I don't know. Am I operating under a completely wrong assumption? Probably but it has worked for me so far. I have expensive tools and cheap tools, both offer the same performance to me. Again, I might be way off base. Such is life.
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I have an el cheapo from Harbor Freight:
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eighth-inch-drive-click-stop-torque-wrench-807.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eighth-inch-drive-click-stop-torque-wrench-807.html)
I think I bought it on sale for $9.99. I was also curious about its accuracy so I did some "unofficial" testing compared to a friends pricey one, going back and forth between the two on various bolts and they both always seemed to line up pretty darn close.
I think generally using any brand torque wrench is better than using nothing which I'm pretty sure 90% of people do since just about every bolt on every car / bike has a torque setting yet I hardly ever see them in people's tool kit.
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Craftsman beam style that I've used for a few (many) decades.
I've had my eye on one of the digital readout versions, but it would be purely a luxury . . . and would cut into the monthly beer budget too much.
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Beams are hard to read under stress. I like a clicker.
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Anything that is critical, I use a Craftsman clicker. Anything that is not, I use the GNT scale.
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+ 1 on the Craftsman.
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Harbor Freight
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Harbor Freight
I like Harbor Freight, but they have been hit and miss with me, in their quality. Some things have worked really well, while others have literally fallen apart the first time I used them. I love going to their stores and looking and playing with everything, I am just cautious about what I will buy from them. Nice to know that their wrenches can hold up. I may have to take a second look at their stuff.
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I like Harbor Freight, but they have been hit and miss with me, in their quality. Some things have worked really well, while others have literally fallen apart the first time I used them. I love going to their stores and looking and playing with everything, I am just cautious about what I will buy from them. Nice to know that their wrenches can hold up. I may have to take a second look at their stuff.
As posted earlier I bought mine from Harbor Freight as well, but as you pointed out, you must be very careful with stuff from there. The first thing I did when I bought the torque wrench there was read the manual (you have to run it totally through its adjustment area to lube it - a common issue with them not clicking) and then tested it with a friends more expensive wrench. I do like going there for stuff I don't use too often like allen and torx head sockets, although my main set of sockets and wrenches are all craftsman.
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Craftsman and Harbor Freight are the 2 top picks? That's scary.
CDI makes all of Snap-Ons Torque wrenchs as well as Armstrong and Precision Instruments. So something like this would be a pretty good deal.
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-instruments-c3fr250f.aspx (http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-instruments-c3fr250f.aspx)
At work we have our Torquing tools checked every year and every tech I've talked to says pretty much the same. This little excerpt is from another forum.
I used to calibrate torque wrenches for a living... everything from cheap clickers to $10k+ hydraulic heads.
Craftsman are junk... as are Husky, etc. They're the same cheap chinese wrenches. Proto are decent.
The best bang for your buck is CDI... that's the company that Snap-On bought because they wanted more control over their torque wrenches (CDI has made Snap-On's torque wrenches forever)
Armstrong are also CDI wrenches
the cheap/crappy wrenches are actually pretty accurate when they're new, and if you store them indoors and don't use them often, they'll stay fairly accurate.
Two keys to clicker wrenches... 1. store them at ~20% of their max torque... DO NOT back them off to zero and certainly don't back them off below zero!!!!!!!!!!! 2. clickers, especially your cheaper wrenches, will be more accurate if you warm them up 5-10 times at 1/2-3/4 your max torque value...
If you've got a craftsman style that the ring has backed off/slipped or a proto that the bottom has come off of, or damn near any clicker that has lost its indication, THROW IT AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A cheap wrench isn't worth the cost of calibration... you can get a new one for about the cost of a calibration. A high end wrench is worth having recalibrated.
The Snap-On digital wrenches pretty much lose adjustment... I never came across one that was out of cal... But I don't like the way they don't break over when they hit their torque level.
if you've got any questions, hit me up, like I said, I used to make a living doing this stuff... I've done Snap-On (CDI) factory training and seen all kinds of stuff in the field
oh, Blue Point is a cheap way to get CDI/Snap-On also... cracks me up when people overpay for Snap-On... I've been to the factory, there are like 10 brands built at that factory, and they're all exactly the same wrenches with different colors/labels.
The Snap-On's have different ratchet heads (that aren't any better, just more expensive and say "Snap-On"
hint for you Snap-On owners... Snap-On does not warranty ratchet heads on torque wrenches. If you hose a ratchet kit, just swap the guts into a socket wrench and have the Snap-On guy warranty it for ya
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Beams are hard to read under stress. I like a clicker.
So have a couple beers first to relieve the stress . . . Man, I have to explain EVERYTHING around here :o First the guy asking about cats in his muffler and now this.
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Craftsman and Harbor Freight are the 2 top picks? That's scary.
CDI makes all of Snap-Ons Torque wrenchs as well as Armstrong and Precision Instruments. So something like this would be a pretty good deal.
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-instruments-c3fr250f.aspx (http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-instruments-c3fr250f.aspx)
At work we have our Torquing tools checked every year and every tech I've talked to says pretty much the same. This little excerpt is from another forum.
On Craftsman, I'd say my beam style is as accurate as I need for working on motorcycles. It was also made at least 30 years ago in the USA and I very much doubt that it's at all comparable to the current Craftsman model made in China. I used to only buy Craftsman tools, but as the quality went down (blame KMart for starters), I started to stray.
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I recommended Craftsman because it's relatively cheap and readily available in most areas, not because it's the best or most accurate for the job. I have a collection of both expensive (Snapon, Mac, S&K) and inexpensive (Harbor Freight, Cobolt, Husky, Stanley, Craftsman) tools. To be completely honest, most hand tools have a lifetime replacement warranty anymore and some of my expensive tools have wore out just as fast as the inexpensive ones, so YMMV.
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I have 3 craftsmans myself, smakk one for inch# and another for ft # both 3/8 and then a big 1/2 inch drive for axles and such but use it mostly for working on the 1 ton dodge no problems yet
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We bought 20 torque wrenches from Harbor Freight last year for a product recall to send to our distributors. We checked the accuracy against our torque wrenches that get calibrated every three months and the Harbor Freight wrenches averaged 7-8 foot pounds less at mid-range.
If you want accuracy try something else. But for $15.00 it was cheap and so-so accurate.
Ernie
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I have 3 craftsmans myself, smakk one for inch# and another for ft # both 3/8 and then a big 1/2 inch drive for axles and such but use it mostly for working on the 1 ton dodge no problems yet
About the only thing a 1/2" torque wrench won't do on a Dodge is torque the Pinion nut. On a Dana 80 it torques to about 450 .ft-.lbs.
I would agree that the older craftsman are quality tools. The ones today? Not so much. Besides, the title is "Best Torque Wrench". While there are different definitions of "best", "cheap and works so-so" does not qualify as "best" in my book.
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For what it is worth, the cheesy needle- pointer, beam bending torque wrenches work directly on physics, which is pretty hard to out smart. The bending of a piece of a known type of steel is easily predicted and very repeatable. So for all the torque wrenches that really do talk to you, take batteries and use sophisticated Wheatstone bridges with a strain gauge on board, the simple act of bending a stick of any homogeneous, crystalline material will work extremely well as a gauge.
Of course if the electronic version was to come with a remote authentication system, then I am sure it would be much, much better.
Brian
Back when I was a professional mechanic (OSSA was a popular brand then) I tested my fancy, high dollar SnapOn torque wrench against one of those cheesy long pointer, flex bar type torque wrenches. The SnapOn dealer had a nifty torque wrench calibration box. The cheesy needle type was just as accurate as the expensive SnapOn. He was not too happy about the results. I still have both. I have to get the SnapOn re-calibrated every now and then. The cheese is always ready to go. The SnapOn does have a cool box.
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If i ever need to torque anything to 450# its going to the dealer
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I've have had Craftsman 3/8 and 1/2" for years, both clicker and beam.
I don't know how accurate they are, but I haven't twisted bolts or ruined threads or have anything vibrate loose.
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Additionally, you might do what my next door neighbor does........borrow from his next door neighbor (ME)
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Additionally, you might do what my next door neighbor does........borrow from his next door neighbor (ME)
;D ;D ;D
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Additionally, you might do what my next door neighbor does........borrow from his next door neighbor (ME)
The best one is the one you borrow.......anybody wanna lend one?
;D
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Craftsman and Harbor Freight are the 2 top picks? That's scary.
CDI makes all of Snap-Ons Torque wrenchs as well as Armstrong and Precision Instruments. So something like this would be a pretty good deal.
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-instruments-c3fr250f.aspx (http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-instruments-c3fr250f.aspx)
At work we have our Torquing tools checked every year and every tech I've talked to says pretty much the same. This little excerpt is from another forum.
Thanks to everyone for their feedback! :thumbs: As I have found with everything else I have researched and read about on the web and yes, even the connie forums, there are as many opinions on torque wrenches out there as there are on tires, oil and seats, go figure right?.
I actually decided to go with the CDI brand in the end and ordered a couple on Tuesday to cover the required ranges on our beloved C14. Interesting that the quote above came in after I did that and helped to solidify my conclusion, especially the part from the Snap-On guy. Sure, I could have gone with Craftsman (almost did) or Harbor Freight, etc. but if you go out and look, even a little, there are an overwhelming number of those who agree that the "quality" has slipped in recent years. Personally and for my money, I would like to only buy once and not have to replace again later due to failure or calibration being sub-par. I figure I'll save in the long run by doing my own maintenance and that justifies spending a little more on the right tools the first time...at least in my mind, YMMV.
One things for sure, the overwhelming majority of us believe that the C14 is the best sport tourer for the money spent and that's all that really matters, at least on this site anyway! :chugbeer: Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts!
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A few rules of thumb I have used wrt torque wrench;
1. Select the drive size appropriate to the applied torque ~ (1/4" (in oz)) .. ~ (3/8" (15 in oz - 85 ft lbs)) .. ~ (1/2" (30 ft lbs - 150 ft lbs))
2. Once you define the max ft lbs force you need to torque (select a torque wrench that has a range 25 - 50% higher)
(note: Torque wrenches tend to be best used in mid range)
For low torques (in oz) and soft materials (Al .. plastics) I tend to select a dial torque wrench.
I use a 3/8" clicker type for most motorcycle torques.
I use a 1/2" clicker type for most 70 ft lbs or higher torque values (axles nuts)
For cost a beam torque wrench cannot be beat.
Always store clicker type torque wrenches in the no / low torque setting
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For what it is worth, the cheesy needle- pointer, beam bending torque wrenches work directly on physics, which is pretty hard to out smart. The bending of a piece of a known type of steel is easily predicted and very repeatable. So for all the torque wrenches that really do talk to you, take batteries and use sophisticated Wheatstone bridges with a strain gauge on board, the simple act of bending a stick of any homogeneous, crystalline material will work extremely well as a gauge.
Of course if the electronic version was to come with a remote authentication system, then I am sure it would be much, much better.
Brian
I agree with you on that. For accuracy and longevity, it's hard to beat a beam style torque wrench. To me their biggest downfall is ease of use on fasteners that aren't in a good position for reading the scale. That's why I end up using my clickers more.
My one complaint on my clickers is that I just don't always trust them. When I'm driving fasteners in the 100-120 in-lb range, sometimes the thing just won't click when I think it should. I'm always afraid of stripping the hole if it's in aluminum and sometimes will go without the torque wrench and just go by feel.
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Always store clicker type torque wrenches in the no / low torque setting
Didn't know that....
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Every Mechanic I've talked to always says that. Every Calibration tech I've talked to says to store them at 20% of scale. Especially the ones that require you to twist the handle to set the torque. The ones with the little wheel on the side like Snap On sells don't care where they are left.
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If you are torquing the bolts that hold on your side panels, use anything.
If you are torquing your axle nuts, I would be WAY more precise. I use Snap-On
for important stuff.
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3 pages......Did we figure this out yet?
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It ranks up there with Ford Vs. Dodge vs Chevy as the never ending argument.
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It ranks up there with Ford Vs. Dodge vs Chevy as the never ending argument.
Nah, That's easy.......CHEVY!!
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Bleck. Mopar is clearly the best.
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I vote for Ford
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:offtopic: officially hijacked.
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:offtopic: officially hijacked.
Yeah....You probably like Toyotas!
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I vote for Ford
+1... :thumbs:
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Yeah....You probably like Toyotas!
lol :)...? wth? Toyotas? Where did that come from?
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Yeah....You probably like Toyotas!
I certainly do. Got two of them.
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C14 / Toyota Avalon / Ford F150 / Honda Element / Snapper Riding Lawnmower
Snapper is the most fun ... C14 is the fastest ... Best to sleep in is the Element ... Best go to the dump is F150 ... Best for I5 to LA is Avalon
::)
Best Torque Wrench is the one you have on hand ....
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I've got a Dodge, a Ford, 2 Mazdas and 2 Kawasakis.
And No Chevys :P
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Currently: Ford Edge, 2 Nissan Altimas, Honda Motorcycle, C14, and a Polaris 800 Sportsman EFI. Have also had Chevy Camaro, Volkswagon Passat, Olds 88 LSS, Ford Taurus SHO, a Cadillac, and oh ya, the first one I got to drive was a 1979 Cutlass Cruiser Station Wagon with red vinyl interior which when polished would make you slide all away across the bench seat with a tight turn. So I've been around the block.
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I'll play, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ford Excursion, Toyota Corolla, Mitsubishi GT3000 VR4, Winnebago Motorhome, Honda CB750K, 2011 C14, Can-Am Outlander Max 500 EFI, and 2 Snowmachines
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Don't worry, My Chevy will pull all you guys out of the ditch.......