Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: dl1911 on June 01, 2023, 07:55:08 AM
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In preparation of taking a ride, I started my procedure for getting my Concours(2008) out of winter hibernation.
Fresh battery in the FOB, Bike on battery tender all winter.
I go out to start and I have nothing responding on the bike. Even the red blinking security light is out. I remove the battery and tucked in behind is a huge mouse nest!!! I thought I had my building secured from the little bastards but apparently I am wrong!
I removed the gigantic mess that was in there, checked battery voltage at 13.1 volts, reinstalled and still nothing.
Began to check fuses and all seem fine. I havent found any chewed wires as of yet but I havent pulled all the plastics yet.
If I am lucky enough to not find any chewed wires is there anything else I should look for that could be causing this problem?
Im fairly mechanically inclined and I have a factory service manual but if anyone has had a similar issue and had a fix any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks to all!
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The blinking red light only blinks for 24hrs after you shut her off.
I assume when you press down the ignition switch nothing happens?
First check the fob battery is at more than 3.2V and is the correct way around.
If that doesn't work, try giving the ignition switch a whack with a rubber mallet?
There is a known issue with the ignition switch sticking.
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Boomer,
Thank you for the reply.
I have checked the FOB battery for voltage and orientation. Both are good.
As far as the KIPASS I have had issues with it in the past and installed the bypass cable thing with the fuse in it. Even employing that I am getting no response whatsoever from the electronics on the bike.
Everything seems as if there is no voltage coming from the battery but I have tried 2 different batteries with the same result. I thought maybe the main 30amp fuse was bad but it checked out okay as well.
I have not found any chewed wires yet but I am fearing something is amiss with that. I just didnt know if there was something I could check before pulling all the plastics off as that is a big job on these bikes.
Thank you and the search continues.
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Remove the ground wire from the frame and clean the connection. Check fuses.
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Remove the ground wire from the frame and clean the connection. Check fuses.
:thumbs: including the main behind the battery box
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Thanks for the comments so far! I have checked fuses even the main. I removed the ground and cleaned it and reinstalled.
Still nothing😪
Lookslike the plastics are coming off for more inspection. Has to be a chewed wire somewhere.
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So I got to spend a little time trying to figure out my non starting issue.
Went thru all the fuses again and all are fine. I checked to see if I have 12v to the ECU when the battery is hooked up and it shows good.
I havent found any chewed wires as of yet. I have pulled some of the plastics off.
When I push down on the key slowly I can hear the micro switch on the KiPass clicking so Im thinking it is not stuck?
Tried rapping on the side of the KiPass with no change.
Anyone have any ideas at all????
Please help.
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To rule out a stuck activation switch you should remove the left black cover below the left grip, look for the harness connectors inside a rubber boot, disconnect the grey connector, reconnect, then see if key is able to be turn ON.
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To rule out a stuck activation switch you should remove the left black cover below the left grip, look for the harness connectors inside a rubber boot, disconnect the grey connector, reconnect, then see if key is able to be turn ON.
He has Brian's KIPASS bypass installed and tried that.
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Even if there's no chewed wires, mouse urine is pretty corrosive. Could be down in any relay, fuse, junction, or connector. Just start at the battery and work your way up logically. I think I have a wiring diagram around here somewhere...
EDIT: found it and attached.
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Thanks guys,
Keep the ideas coming.
Big Red, I would agree with the urine being corrosive and it stinks to high heaven!
The wiring diagram you showed, is that the same one from the factory service manual?
Freddy, I do have one of Brian's bypass kits installed and I even tried removing it plugging and unplugging the factory harness. Still DOA.
I really appreciate the ideas guys!
I will figure it out. There is just sooo much on these bikes that is electrical......
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The wiring diagram you showed, is that the same one from the factory service manual?
Yup. The first gen manual, '08-'09.
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Did you check the kill switch?
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Question for the group.
Could it be possible that the solenoid in the activation process of the KiPass is either bad or stuck in the down position causing my issue?
OR, Could the micro switch on the activation lever of the KiPass be stuck or faulty and causing my problem of not getting anything to respond?
Thoughts??
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I suppose it's POSSIBLE, but your bypass should've ruled that out.
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Big Red,
I agree but if one of those two switches is stuck in the closed position Im thinking it might have cause a type of fault. In doing so Im wondering if the system shuts down to protect itself.
Or maybe one of those two switches has just simply gone bad?
Im not sure either way just trying ideas.
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Stupid question here...
Have you disconnected the battery, gone in the house to have a cold 1 or 2 then come back out.
In essence a reboot.
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Tweeter55
Yes the battery has been disconnected.
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Okay so to add to the drama. I removed the cover that covers the seloniod that unlocks the key on the right side of the KiPass unit.
When I manualy depress the seloniod I can turn on the key. In the run position I can turn the motor over and I have headlights. The motor cranks but I do not hear the fuel pump and the dash readout is still blank so Im assuming no spark?
This is the first life I have had since the beginning.
I am starting to suspect the plunger under the key is stuck in the down position.
The thing that puzzles me is why my bypass wont work?
Ideas?
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Just to clarify the name of parts - KIPASS is an ECU located under the seat. The ign switch (apart from having switches) it too has an ECU wherein the passive fobs reside - this ECU communicates with the KIPASS ECU.
I would think, given what you have described above, the problem is elsewhere. Could it have rodent damage?
I have a vague recollection of someone having a similar issue and the problem was a rare failed Fuel Injection ECU. KDS is needed to register a new/used FI ECU to the bike's brain. Just my thoughts. The early FI ECUs were all the same part number from memory.
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Freddy,
Im not ruling anything out at this time.
Rodent damage is a possibility but I have found anything yet.
Forgive my ignorance on the nomanclature but this the first issue I have had with this bike and I bought it new.
What is KDS?
Thank You
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Kawasaki Diagnostic System - version 3, which dealers are supposed to have and know how to use CORRECTLY - and a few owners have.
One of the nomenclature issues is that Kawasaki has 3 or 4 names for the same item on our bikes, depending on whether you're reading the Owner's manual, service manual, KDS instruction manual or spare parts manual.
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Freddy,
Is the KDS something that can be purchased somewhere?
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It can occasionally be found here or on eBay. But it's expensive.
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It's a dealer only kit but does come up on forums and ebay on rare occasions. It's now been superseded by K-TISC for H2 bikes with the later version of KIPASS.
https://www.ktisc.eu/k-tisc/legal/terms?back=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ktisc.eu%2Fk-tisc%2Fuser%2FcreateForm%3FexistingUser%3Dfalse%26inviteToken%3D%26prefill%3D%26termsAccepted%3Dtrue
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Well Saturday I have a friend that is a tech and pretty good with diagnosis so he is going to come over and help me see if we can figure out whats going on.
I will update once I figure out the fix.
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Well Saturdays diagnosis session didnt turn up anything.
Can anyone tell me what the result would be if the Micro switch on the left side of the KiPass housing is broken of stuck in the closed position?
In addition if that switch is stuck would the Bryon BiPass take care of the issue?
Is there anyone in or around Alliance, Ohio that would have the KDS that would help me of at the very least rent it to me?
Thanks all in advance!
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Brian's KIPASS Bypass removes the possibility of that switch being the cause of your issue.
Could still be rodent damage somewhere.
Connecting KDS to your bike will not necessarily show where the problem is. You may need to replace the Fuel Injection ECU as outlined in reply 19 to see if that fixes it.
This perhaps - check that the part number is the same.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254525768678?hash=item3b42eb03e6:g:JaoAAOSw2j5eWUe0&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0DaVbR20ZX19HmW8H1Orkt%2BvZBq5VgswNClzUBRcG%2FbusCkmusb%2BHXihTATBy7gMmlx0rVKIOno3nwDXMP2tob3wjR9EYCkxqAqrjXRnlivEq6F%2FGtvGCSqA%2Bi4xA91H%2BFGT4CieBRRfOnH%2Fx8E7JptUUjAzanshrmzNmnAWlvIjeiwLzEFxggXYvttqmWKfMnk7Ps24bn7QbF%2F2pAcnilcgQuo%2BSTKjTdT2fo2eDpxwQ9Yp%2BvUUWs%2BZcCfnlUkc08KooYBrKeVidX0IvixIckY%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9b8haKfYg
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Freddy,
If I was to replace the FI ECU does it need to be reflashed to operate on my bike?
I dont particularly like just throwing parts at a problem when I dont know the culprit of the problem if ya know what I mean.
Im not objective to replacing it but I need to find a way to see if the FI ECU is indeed bad.
Thank you for the ideas!! Keep em coming.
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If I was to replace the FI ECU does it need to be reflashed to operate on my bike? No, it needs to be registered to KIPASS using KDS or the bike will not start - mimicking the problem you already have.
As you're not getting any fault codes when you seemed to get the ignition to turn on, I know of no other way of checking for a faulty FI ECU, short of sending it off to a specialist.
I don't like to throw money/parts at a problem but in this case I would make an exception (given that the ebay item above is less than $100) in the absence of rodent damage, which to my mind, is highly probable given what you discovered behind the battery. I would remove the tank and some plastic to have a thorough look everywhere on the bike.
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You are going to have to study the wiring diagram (starts on page 630 in the service manual) and start checking continuity between connectors. Purchase a probe kit so you can measure without damaging the connector pins.
The mice have probably found a favorite place to gnaw.
https://www.amazon.com/Goupchn-Multimeter-Replaceable-Alligator-Electrical/dp/B09ZTSYXM2/ref=d_m_crc_dp_lf_d_t1_sccl_3_2/135-9159914-3799445?pd_rd_w=ggGHD&content-id=amzn1.sym.5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_p=5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_r=YE42RQ6NK1842W40SN4R&pd_rd_wg=EvXKP&pd_rd_r=40bad480-8608-4292-8d98-376db88de56f&pd_rd_i=B09ZTSYXM2&psc=1
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With the battery removed, pull the kipass bypass fuse, put your meter in continuity and place probes in the fuse holder, click the key down and hold it. Check reading. Release and check again. That should give you an indicator as to whether or not the microswitch is an issue at all and you can move on.
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Have you tried using either fob in passive mode?
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Big Red,
When you say passive mode you mean take the key out of the FOB and place it over the nub on the KiPass unit?
If so yes I have tried that with both fOBs.
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Yeah, that's what I meant.
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Since this is a recent thread on dead bikes...
I always have it on a tender. I went for a ride last Sunday morning for 2 hours with no issues. Today I needed to take the bike in for a yearly inspection and when I tried to start it, I pushed down, got the indicator on the dash to turn the knob, I did so and everything went blank and nothing does anything anymore.
I checked the battery in the fob and it seems to be very low so my wife will be buying a new battery today. I will also be removing and cleaning the different ground points and see if that fixes it.
This bike has been rock solid since I got it in 2010 so this was a shock to me this morning.
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BTW, I did remove the key and hold it over the protrusion for a few seconds and tried it again and nothing. My wife didn't go out and get me a new battery but I don't think that's it.
I did remove the main battery and there was corrosion on the positive battery terminal, but it wasn't bad and the battery was showing 13.5v. I cleaned things up and re-connected and no go.
I am thinking this has to be the KiPass system. Tomorrow I will see if I can work on it and take the plastic off to get to the relays and such. I have the PDF of the service manual, so I am looking at that for locations of everything.
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Bad or even questionable connections on this bike can do all sorts of wacky things. Also when you checked battery voltage was it under a load of some sort? Others on here can give you a better idea of what the range should be. Don’t be afraid to use the search function on here. I know it’s been discussed before. Good luck!
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My voltage check was under zero load since I have zero response from the bike. But point taken. It could be the battery.
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If you don't have a battery load tester, most garages will have one and will normally do a quick test for free if you ask nicely.
Failing that, you can test with a loose starter motor but you will get sparks when you complete the circuit and make 100% certain that the starter motor is bolted down as they kick like a mule.
I use car jump-leads and a C10 starter motor clamped in my bench vise.
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My voltage check was under zero load since I have zero response from the bike. But point taken. It could be the battery.
You *must* have some load on the battery to test it in any meaningful way (the multitester, itself, is almost zero load). Even a small load will do for a quick sanity check. Otherwise, you are just measuring "surface voltage." Just hook up a 12v incandescent lamp or something inline with your meter to test the voltage. If it drops much compared to no load, it is likely pretty dead. A true test requires a LOT of load (many dozens of amps over a significant amount of time, after being fully charged), but this simple test will tell you if it is enough to wake the bike up or not.
As others (and I) have said many times, the C14 is particularly picky about voltage (and good connections). A little too low and it will freak out, or do nothing at all.
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So I pulled the battery out again and found a 12v bulb and tried to get it to light up and realized that the positive terminal has some corrosion on it (which doesn't look horrible), which was not allowing a good contact. I used the multimeter probes and touched the top of the terminals again and got nothing. If I touched at the bottom of the terminal block (under the floating nut), it was fine.
I have a battery on order now, coming Sunday (Amazon was $46 and the local dealer was $130).
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BTW, I checked my records and the last time I replaced the battery was just over 6 years ago, so I am due.
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A load resistor that comes with some LED bulbs makes a good dummy load for a sanity check of your battery.
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So I pulled the battery out again and found a 12v bulb and tried to get it to light up and realized that the positive terminal has some corrosion on it (which doesn't look horrible), which was not allowing a good contact. I used the multimeter probes and touched the top of the terminals again and got nothing. If I touched at the bottom of the terminal block (under the floating nut), it was fine.
You didn't tell us the voltage when it did light up in series with the meter :) I am sure many of us are curious.
And yes, at 6 years, it is overdue for replacement, most likely. This is especially true if the battery ever sat for long in a low charge state. I have yet to have a battery last that long, even using a battery tender on it ALL the time it is not ridden.
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You didn't tell us the voltage when it did light up in series with the meter :) I am sure many of us are curious.
And yes, at 6 years, it is overdue for replacement, most likely. This is especially true if the battery ever sat for long in a low charge state. I have yet to have a battery last that long, even using a battery tender on it ALL the time it is not ridden.
It didn't light up because I could not get any voltage from the positive terminal where I connected it.
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Okay so yesterdays diagnosis was slightly more productive.
Does anyone think the actual ignition switch could be bad? I have battery voltage going to the KiPass housing and ignition switch but I have no voltage getting back to the main ECU or the KiPass ecu?
I can turn the motor over with the starter but I have no dash, fuel pump or ignition.
Ideas?
I also checked continuity between all the joing terminals and the main plug under the left fairing.
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I have not heard for a faulty ignition switch assembly (apart from stuck activation switch) in the 16 years I've had one and been on these forums.
Did you remove some plastic and thoroughly inspect for rodent damage?
See reply 27.
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Freddy,
I have removed all of the plastics from the dash rearward. I still havent found any rodent damage.
The next alternative I guess is to pull the front to get the ignition/KiPass housing.
This is really starting to get frustrating! As much as I love this motorcycle it has WAY to much electronic crap on it!
The search comtinues!!!
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Have you checked on top of the valve cover?
The ign swiitch ECU is NOT where KIPASS lives, which is the black box (ECU) under the seat with 1 harness connector.
I do not think that KIPASS is the problem.
Yours is a very rare issue. As I've said, if there is no rodent damage, try another fuel injection ECU as described earlier.
As for electronics - newer models & makes have LOTS more.
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My issue is solved. New battery is installed and it started right up. I have it on the charger now and will bring it in for it's annual inspection in a few days.
I hope dl1911 can get his figured out soon.
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LOL! I am very glad yours is fixed now and it was just the battery.
DL's issue might be a tad less straight-forward, unfortunately.
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Freddy,
Where is the fi ecu box located?
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There are 4 black boxes under the seat; one with 3 plugs is the Relay box; one with 2 plugs is the FI ECU; one with 1 plug which is the KIPASS ECU ; and one with no plug which is the tool box.
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Freddy,
Okay I was misunderstanding the nomenclature. I understood this box to be the main ecu.
If I replace it, it will have to be reflashed using the KDS system correct?
I am trying my best to avoid having to have to take this in to the dealer.
I dont have a lot of faith in the local Kawasaki dealers to get this fixed.
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If I replace it, it will have to be reflashed using the KDS system correct?
See reply 29.
Where are you located? Perhaps someone on the COG forum with KDS can help you out.
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Im in Alliance, Ohio
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Are you going to buy that ECU off ebay?
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I havent decided to buy anything just yet. Im still searching for the culprit before I start spending money.
If I need to replace the ecu I need to find someone able to do the re-register.
Figure in those costs.
The dealers around here are very high on their shop rates.
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l have asked on the COG forum if someone with KDS can help you, with a link to this thread.
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Thank you!!
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I thought I would give you an update on my electrical issue. I have diagnosed about everything you could imagine. Last night I was checking voltages at my fuse panels and low and behold fuse box #3 should have battery voltage on the 10amp "Screen" and "Talk Back" fuses. Mine didnt have anything!!!
So what I did was, made a jumper to go between those two terminals and then used a power probe to supply 12 volts. When I did that I got KiPass to engage the way it is supposed to, the LCD screen on the dash came to life, and the fuel pump ran!!! PROGRESS!!!!
So now the bike has to come almost completely down so I can trace the white power wire coming off the starter relay that provides power to fuse block #3 which in turn powers the three things I didnt have working.
I am assuming I have a chewed, broken wire or a loose splice connector as there are several on these bikes. I love my concours but damn do they have to make things complicated!!
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:banana
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Result! ;D
Sounds very much like Los Roedoros have been a chewing on yer wiring harness.
Seems to be a common-ish issue.
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According to the diagram, that white wire only goes to the regulator and the starter relay. If you have continuity between the regulator/rectifier and the relay, I would just run a single new wire from the starter relay to your fuse box.
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Big Red, yes that is a consideration but I want to trace the wire to inspect for rodent damage on anything else.
Its a lot of extra work but I want to do it right and only once.
Thank you for the idea though.
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Big Red, yes that is a consideration but I want to trace the wire to inspect for rodent damage on anything else.
Its a lot of extra work but I want to do it right and only once.
Thank you for the idea though.
Did she fire up for you? Or are you still tracing other problems? I agree that you ought to track down the area where the mouse damaged the white wire to check for other damage, but it would be nice to know you could at least get her running, too.
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Rubber Snake,
I havent had the chance to get back to working on it just yet.
I will report back as soon as I find more out.
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Okay Gents another update but still not the solution.
Inside the main wiring harness the runs down the left side of the bike I found a bad factory splice on the white power wire runni g to the rear ECUs. Once I repaired this section of wire everything came to life.
KiPass, fuel pump, and dash all working. Cranking the motor over and she still wont fire off. One thing I did notice that while cranking the red LED security light flashes. I dont know if it did that before or not?
Attempted to start 3 times. Cranks fine but no fire.
I walked out of the garage to take a leak and when I came back I had nothing again. Started trouble shooting again and one thing I found was I have power(red) wire going into the ignition module on the KiPass unit but I have no power on the (red/white) power coming out with the key one?
Could the ignition module located on the switch house have gone bad?
Does anyone know of a resource that knows the systems on these bikes that I can call and talk to?
This is becoming more than frustrating.
Thanks, Dave
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I am struck by how much white debris is inside that bundle, implying it has been getting wet and exposed to contaminates. You didn't say, but I assume there was one wire that broke. But the copper looks pretty good, so I would suspect it was mechanical failure (vibration, tugging, twisting, rubbing) there and not corroded-through. Could have been weakened due to corrosion and then broke when you manipulated it.
In any case, if you find something like that, it raises the odds that there is yet another issue, somewhere.
I can't speak to the non-starting and then going completely dead again. First part could be so many things, especially if it hasn't run in a long time (presumably at this point, coming close to a year now). Could also be the battery voltage dropped below acceptable. Second part could be that once the wiring relaxed again, another wiring issue asserted itself. Might also need to check battery voltage under load, and all the fuses yet again :(
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The Red LED should not flash while cranking. That would indicate that the imoboliser / Kipass is still activated. You need to get back to the better situation you had on Aug 1 somehow, then spray some starting fluid into the indate to check if any life.
It seems to me that there is more rodent damage to be found.
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So can anyone give me definitive answer to the following question?
IF I were to purchase the KiPass ECU, ignition switch unit to include the immobilizer, fobs, gas cap, and seat release from another bike would I be able to swap these components out without reprogramming using KDS?
Thanks in advance.
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Freddy,
I have had almost the entire wire harness exposed now and have found no chewed wires. The White power wire that I did find broken was corroded to the point that the strands in the wire just broken off. Could have been vibration or whatever but none the less there were three white wires(Power) being affected.
The issue now is appearing to be the immobilizer. If I check power going into the immobilzer I have battery voltage. With the ignition switch in the one position I have no power coming out to go to the KiPass ecu.
Im beginning to think it must be something in the immobilizer that has gone bad?
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So can anyone give me definitive answer to the following question?
IF I were to purchase the KiPass ECU, ignition switch unit to include the immobilizer, fobs, gas cap, and seat release from another bike would I be able to swap these components out without reprogramming using KDS?
Thanks in advance.
Yes.
To do a complete swap with no programming you would need:
Ignition switch
Key
Fob(s)
Kipass ecu
FI ecu
TPMS sensors
and locks for tank, seat and saddlebags.
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Wot she said^
TPMSsensors optional; Fuel Injection ECU essential - all from the one bike.
Other locks you already have the key for. ;D
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If it were my bike I'd replace the wiring harness before buying a complete and expensive set of electronics.
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dl - why don't you just replace the fuel ECI as previously suggested? The Kipass side of things seems to be functioning as it should from what you have described. Don't you have access to a dealer with KDS?
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Freddy,
The fuel ecu passes all tests according to the factory manual.
After I repaired the white wires in the harness I had everything working but still wouldnt start.
While cranking the security light is continuosly flashing.
One of the people above said that indicated that the immobilizer is still active preventing spark.
When I test the imobilizer I have power going in but nothing coming out.
Im going to attempt bypassing the imobilzer to see if I can get it to fire.
I have one dealer about 2 hours away that probably has KDS but they charge $120/hr and they wont touch the bike if it is partially torn apart(plastics and such).
I dont mind rrplacing parts but I want to know what to replace before I just throw money at it if that makes sense.
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Understood.
While cranking the security light is continuosly flashing.
One of the people above said that indicated that the immobilizer is still active preventing spark.
That was me. ;D
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Thank you for that explanation as it directed me to look at the imobilizor.
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I wish I could find someone that is very well versed on the systems in these bikes.
I would love to talk to such person to verify the way I think they work.
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If you're thinking that it works in such a way that it can be bypassed, you are going down the wrong road.
The kipass ecu uses 128 bit encryption and requires the correct code from the fob or the ignition key module. If it doesn't receive that it won't allow the fi ecu to function or the key to turn. The modules have two way communication and if any one part doesn't know the secret handshake none of it will work. That's why you would need a matching set to swap anything. Unless you have access to a KDS.
It's easy for me to say (given that I have all the parts and a KDS), but I'd still change the harness first. Or at least drape it over the bike in such a way that it can all be plugged in. Then you'd know if you have a big job, or a huge one.
The harness goes between the engine and frame in a way that requires partly dropping the motor to pull it through.
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Michelle,
I guess saying Im going to try to bypass the imobilizer was the wrong termonology.
What I have currently is battery voltage (red wire) going into the imobilizer. When the key is in the ON position I should have battery voltage (red/white wire) coming out of the imobilizer.
I do not have that voltage to commicate back to the ecu. What I want to do is apply a power source via battery voltage only on that wire to bypass that part of the imobilizer.
All other wires will still be attached so the communication aspect shoukd remain in tact.
At least this is my train of thought. Am I wrong?
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I'm still struggling with the terminology. Not your fault, even Kawasaki themselves can't get it straight.
Which is the part you are calling the immobiliser?
Tomorrow I will pull the parts out of a box and lay it out so we're both looking at the same thing.
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The immobilizer to my understanding is the part attached to the ignition that reads the FOB.
It is attached to the main ignition switch housing with 2 phillips screws. It has a bundle of wires that go into the bottom of it.
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Michelle,
This is the part Im calling the immobilizer.
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5 pages...epic Haroldo...
I feel for you.
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5 pages...epic Haroldo...
That could be understood as very hurtful. ha ha
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Ok. I've laid the wiring harness on the ground and only connected the key switch, the kipass and the speedo cluster.
The red/white wire that comes out of the steering lock (which you called the immobiliser) goes to the instrument cluster and to the kipass ecu. It does indeed contain 12 volts when the key is in the on position.
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Good job Daisy.
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Michelle,
Thank you for that! So would it be safe to assume since I do not have voltage out (red/white) wire that I have an issue with the ignition/immobilizor?
I am going to work on it again tomorrow after work and try getting power to that red/white wire to see if I get any life out of it.
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At this stage I think powering the red/white wire is a logical step.
Getting back to Freddy's theory that the FI ecu is the problem: I don't have an 08 ecu as I sold it some time back, but the dash will come on with the ecu completely missing. It just says FI error.
The dash also gets some power from somewhere else, as when I plugged it in the needles did their usual sweep. The keyswitch wasn't even connected at the time.
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Michelle,
At this point Im not ruling out anything. The FI ECU may in fact be bad. The odd thing is thru this whole thing I have gotten no codes on the display of any kind other than the security light flashing while the motor is cranking.
I dont want to spend money replacing things that may or may not be bad. If I could get the damn bike to communicate something to me as far as what is going on.
I absolutely love this motorcycle but damn it is starting to get very aggravating!
I will report back after tomorrows session of this continuing saga!
Thank you for all the help guys, it is much appreciated!
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That could be understood as very hurtful. ha ha
That's why I said the other sentence. Troubleshooting this kind of issue can be stressful for the OP. Of course I wish the best of luck in getting this resolved. Much thanks to you, Michelle and others for helping. You all get a get out of jail free card.
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So another update yet no result. In the process of all this testing I have found that one of the CAN wires is not sending a signal to the FI ecu.
First a question,
Can the FI ecu be replaced without KDS flashing? I read somewhere that there was a company remapping them and it was a plug and play type of thing?
I have decided to buy another wiring harness at least. But I think I would like to try Freddys advice and replace the FI ecu before I do that.
Everything is working now except I have no spark. The KiPass is working properly, the fuel pump runs, the motor cranks over, Im getting injector pulse when the motor cranks and it smells a little bit like gas after cranking.
I do not have power to the trigger wires going to the coils and I checked the CAN line that activates those trigger wires and I have nothing there.
So that tells me either I have another broken wire or the FI ecu is not sending a single to fire the coils.
Does my thought process sound right?
Thanks!
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Oh and the red security light still blinks during cranking but I have had zero codes on the dash display.
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The reflashing of the ecu is done with the bike completely functional. KIPASS knows nothing about engine management, only that the FI ECU returns the correct id. Changing the kipass brain, the ignition switch or the FI ecu requires KDS.
Try unplugging the FI ecu and turning on the bike. If that doesn't show an error on the dash, your problem is elsewhere.
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Michelle,
So just so I understand correctly. If I was to replace the FI ecu with one from a different bike it WOULD require KDS?
If I unplug the FI ecu and attempt to get a code will it harm anything else?
Many thanks
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To the first question. Yes. Which is why diagnosis by replacement isn't an option.
To the second. I don't think so.
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Michelle,
Is there anyway to bench test these ecu's?
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Michelle,
Is there anyway to bench test these ecu's?
If there is, that's way above my pay grade.
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I believe the folks who 'flash' the FI ecu for better performance, like SISF, Smokin in Oz and M Cox in Germany, buy an 'access key' from a mob in Qld Australia for $150 per unit. No doubt they can.
The other way is to fit your FI ecu to a same model bike and register it to that bike with KDS and see if it works.
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Thanks folks for the replies.
At this point I think I am going to replace the wiring harness and it that doesnt rectify my problem I believe I am done with it!
Getting access to KDS is problematic in my area with one exception of a dealer 2 hrs away. The other issue with them is they have 120/hr rate to work on it and they wont touch it if the bike is in anyway disassembled.
I just dont see investing 1/2 value of the bike in trying to fix it. By the time I buy replacement ecu's, ignition control units, fobs, gas cap and pay the dealer to make it all play nice together I might as well buy another damn bike!
I bought this bike new in 08 and have had 27,000 miles worth of enjoyment out of but damn am I aggrevated and mad! All of this problem happened while the bike was in storage over the winter!
Im going to step away from it for a bit to calm down. I will let you know what I decide to do or if I get it fixed.
Many thanks to all that have helped. I do truly appreciate it!
Dave
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Ensure you get a harness with the same part number.
All the best with it.
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UPDATE:
Well I have replaced the wire harness.
Everything appears to be working but still no start. It appears that the bike is not getting any spark and it is leading in the direction of a bad ecu.
I have also bench tested all of the sensors and everything passed. I even went so far as leaving the crank sensor unplugged to see if I could get a code on the dash! Good news is it did code and showed a crank sensor fault.
So I know the ecu is at least talking to the bikebut whatever triggers the coils isnt firing them. I cant find anything else wrong.
I have found another dealer somewhat close to me that has KDS and will run a dignostic on it for $216.00. He said it may or may not show the problem.
So I guess I get the diag and of ot shows a problem with the ecu it is replacement time.
Does anyone know if it is possible to reflash a used ecu to my bike using KDS? Dealer didnt know???? Said he will have to call Kawasaki???
On a side note: pulling the main wiring harness is a challenge and requires the engine to dropped down from the frame. Not a fun job!!
Just PSA
The saga continues.
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Before getting a different ECU, check to see if all the pins in the connectors are all the way out in the position they should be in.
I thought I remembered from loooong ago that someone had a problem with their bike and that's what it turned out to be.
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Good job on replacing the harness dl. Thanks for the update.
As for fitting a used ECU (with the same part number) see reply 29. But do as T/Joe suggests.
$216 is a rip off. It would take no more than a half hour from removing the seat to refitting it. KDS may not show a problem as the engine needs to be running. Registering another FI ECU is done before the engine is started. The steps in the KDS manual to do so are simple.
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Freddy,
While I agree $216 is a bit much to plug in a computer, Im at the mercy of the people with the KDS. The other dealer was $240!
Im going to call Ivans Performance today to see if he can offer any insight to my problem.
While I love this motorcycle, I an very disappointed in Kawasaki. They made this bike so overly complicated and then offer very little support.
The one dealer I spoke to even said he wasnt sure he could even get a new ECU if I needed one!
Very frustrating!!
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A used ECU of same part number will do. That one in reply 27 seems to be still available.
Everything is complicated these days, some more so than others. I would put these bikes towards the lower end. Much confusion comes from misunderstanding but you've done well so far, especially with the harness.
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While I agree $216 is a bit much to plug in a computer, Im at the mercy of the people with the KDS. The other dealer was $240!
My dealer didn't know either, but they said they'd try. I bought a new bike and wanted my old flashed computer moved over. $100 for half an hour labor. It did take some talking to get them to do it. They said the ABS vs non ABS ECUs were different. I said, "I have both in my hands and they're the same part numbers, even." After everything was said and done, I now have two working ECUs. Was worth it for $100. Dunno it would've been for north of $200.
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I have a 2008/2009 ECU with a flash on it if you want it. $100
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Freebird65,
Thank you for the offer but to my understanding the ecu will have to be married to the other components of my bike so it will work.
In doing that the KDS equipment will put the ecu back to factory specs. The way it was explained to me was I have to have a working ecu that is already married to my bike before I can begin any type of reflashing.
Thank you for the offer though
Dave
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Dave
You've been informed incorrectly. Reflashing is not at all related to the KDS operation. I sold a flashed ecu to a guy in Western Australia and Freddy installed it for him. No issues.
Again, KDS can't even tell if the ecu is flashed. All you need to do is install it on the bike and get someone with KDS to tell the bike it is now married to a new ecu.
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Michelle,
I wish I would have been told correctly. At the time the offer was made I had already purchased a salvaged ecu because I was under the impression that I needed a stock ecu to connect to the KDS.
I am currently waiting for the coil harness, injector harness, and sensor harness. Once these arrive I will have replaced all of the wiring harnesses.
I am praying the bike will fire off. Unfortunately I'm not very optimistic.
I'm still very baffled as to how or why the ecu could have gone bad just sitting in storage.
I should have all the pieces In hand before the weekend so I will report back with what turns up if anything.
Thank you one and all for sticking with me thru all of this.
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Well another unsuccessful update,
The wiring harness have all completely been replaced. Everything on the bike seems to working normally but it still will not start. The only thing that is still curious to me is the security light is still flashing while the motor is cranking over. Can anyone tell me if this is normal?
Im seriously leaning to the fact that SOMEHOW the FI ECU has gone bad. I really wish there was a way to test it!
I have purchased a salvaged ECU, so Im guessing the next logical step is going to be taking it to a dealer to see if they can marry my new ECU to my bike.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Many Thanks!
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The red security light should go off when the ign key is turned on.
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If the red light is flashing then the Immobiliser is still active and will prevent ignition.
Are you 100% certain that the ignition switch, ECU, and KIPASS module are all programmed to each other?
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Boomer,
I bought the bike new in 2009 so I am the original owner.
The immobilizer, ecu and KiPasd ecu are all the original pieces.
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Freddy,
The security light goes off when the ignition switch is turned on but when I hit the starter button the light flashes while the motor is turning over.
Is there anything in the factory manual that would tell me what the security light flashing means? I haven't been able to find anything.
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Not sure if you tired it but have you attempted the passive key to start?
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dbird29
Yes I have attempted a passive key start.
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dl, it's 'interesting' that the red is behaving like that.
I don't have access to the FSM or Owners manual at the moment but if the red light is flashing the immobiliser is active.
As we know, the red light will stop flashing after 24 hrs when the bike is parked.
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Freddy,
While I agree with your statement I am curious that if the immobilizer is still active would the KiPass function normally allowing the ignition switch to operate normally? The micro switch turns the dash on and activates the selonoid to turn the switch. If the immobilizer was still active wouldn't it prevent this from happening?
It also sends power to the ECU and allows the motor to crank.
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l don't know the answer. The immobiliser/red light is controlled by the KIPASS ECU to my understanding, whereas the fuel system, including spark and fuel pump, is controlled by the Fl ECU. The symptoms your bike displays don't make sense to me - but it is what it is. Consequently, it will be a trial and error thing to fix, unless a more knowledgeable person has a better way forward, perhaps Michelle. I'd replace the Fl ECU firstly.
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The biggest problem here is having the KDS at hand and the bike half a world away. :(
Dave,
To refresh my understanding, you now have the kipass working normally? You can depress the key and turn on the ignition using either the fob or the passive like you could before you put it to bed for winter? Without bypassing the spring.
You are at a crank no start situation which you believe is no spark. How are you checking for spark?
Meantime I'll have another look through the KDS manual and see if we can work out the flashing security light.
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Michelle,
Yes the KiPass is working the way it should. Press the key down and the micro switch activates, turns the dash on and activates the selonoid releasing the key. At that point the fuel pump runs and the motor will crank over.
When the motor cranks, I put a stethoscope on the injectors to listen for pulse and they are pulsing. Also if you put your nose to the exhaust you can smell gas so I believe the fuel system is working.
I tested the ignition by checking for battery voltage at each coil. I have battery voltage at each one but I do not have the triggering impulse to fire the coil. I initially though maybe the crank trigger wasnt working but after testing that I was proven wrong. Also when I left the crank trigger unhooked and turned the motor over it showed a fault on the dash. As soon as I plugged it back in the fault code went away.
This is telling me that the bike is communicating with the ECU on some systems?
The only thing that seems off is the security light flashing while the bike is cranking. As soon as I come off the starter switch the security light goes out. I dont remember it ever doing that before but the bike always started so maybe I just never noticed it?
Aside from the above I am at a total loss.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Dave
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Maybe back probe the connector at the ECU for the coils? If you've got a reasonably responsive meter or better yet a pocket oscilloscope, you should be able to see the triggering. If the ECU isn't controlling the coils, it's possible the driver inside died.
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Big Red,
I dont know that the meter I have is responsive enough to pick up that signal. It is a Fluke Automotive Unit.
Im not objective to buying a pocket oscilloscope but I have no idea on how to use one. Is it a complicated process?
I like this idea as it is testing the actual ECU.
Thanks, Dave
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Some Fluke automotive meters can do pulse width and duty cycle. That would be enough to check the ECU output. If you do want a pocket DSO, they're pretty easy to learn to get waveforms to display. Here's a cheapo model. https://a.co/d/61eNX6I
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Big Red,
Thanks I will look into that.
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KISS
What would you have done in years past? Put a plug in the coil cap and place it appropriately so that you can see if the plug is firing.
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That o-scope should work on seeing if the ECU is receiving the trigger signal and pulling the coil and watching the plug for spark is a great idae. You seem real close to a solution.
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dbird29,
I have no reason to believe that the ECU is not getting the trigger signal as the both the cam and crank sensors checked out. However I believe that possibly the ECU is not sending the signal to the coils. If that makes sense?
Info going in but not coming back out.
I have been warned about pulling and holding a plug to see if there is spark due to the fact that ECU electronics are very sensitive and if while holding a plug I lost and then gained contact the interruption could cause damage to the ECU?
I am almost positive that there is no spark happening at all because the bike make zero effort to start or pop or anything.
Keep the ideas coming guys I appreciate it very much.
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You can pull a coil, poke another plug into it, earth it and see what you get.
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Freddy,
I do not have much of an update because I parked the project for winter storage. I am currently looking for a dealer in my area that will flash a replacement ECU.
Dave