Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Tele130 on July 01, 2012, 10:53:51 PM
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Last week I rode home from work and she was running like a top. Take off the following day for work and it's acting like it's running on three cylinders.........way under power, exhaust sounds "Fluttery". So far I've:
Installed new plugs
New Coil Sticks
Drained the Float Bowls
Cleaned and re-oiled the Air Filter
Checked Vacuum lines
So far, no change in it's performance. Getting very discouraged with it.
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Perhaps an electrical gremlin that's reared it's ugly head. Your post says you put in new plugs and stick coils, but are you certain all plugs are firing? Maybe a larger vacuum leak too, like a cracked carb boot or one of the band clamps not tightened enough? Were the plugs black and full of soot?
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Doug, there's just not enough info in your post. What's fluttery - like a little pixie/fairy fluttery :o ? fluttery isn't a diagnostic description. Is the bike missing? if so, one cylinder, more than one, and under what circumstances? Steve
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Doug, there's just not enough info in your post. What's fluttery - like a little pixie/fairy fluttery :o ? fluttery isn't a diagnostic description. Is the bike missing? if so, one cylinder, more than one, and under what circumstances? Steve
The Fluttering sound from the exhaust reminds me what was happening before I got the Air Box seal properly after the 2 min mod. No, it doesn't seem like it's missing. It acts more like fuel starvation...sputtering but not missing. If I run with the choke on just a little bit it seems much better.
1). Replace the foam in the air intake port on the air box?
2). Look for an air leak in the system....Air Box, Carb Boots,?
Just a couple guesses.
Thanks for seeing this Steve. ;)
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Vacuum caps? those rubber things rot fast and leak quick.
Leaky float valve? Over flow tubes (pretty much needed anyway to prevent hydro-lock) will also tell you is a float valve is leaking
Dirt in the carb?
Does it run correctly when you do WOT (Wide open throttle) or is it just when cruising/coasting?
When you start the bike up cold is it missing bad on one cylinder? ( that one exhaust pipe will be cold)
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Vacuum caps? those rubber things rot fast and leak quick.
Leaky float valve? Over flow tubes (pretty much needed anyway to prevent hydro-lock) will also tell you is a float valve is leaking
Dirt in the carb?
Does it run correctly when you do WOT (Wide open throttle) or is it just when cruising/coasting?
When you start the bike up cold is it missing bad on one cylinder? ( that one exhaust pipe will be cold)
It has Steve's 2 Min mod with OverFlow tubes, Spring of 2010.
Drained the float bowls into a glass jar......nothing seen (but that doesn't mean much).
No. It runs like it's starving for fuel ALL the time (unless I input a little choke)
I took a squirt bottle of water and carefully squirted each pipe. They all sizzled and evporated the water on contact.
I'm thinking it's an Air Leak somewhere....................than again, I can only guess. :o
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If I run with the choke on just a little bit it seems much better.
Which could be indication a plugged Pilot/Jet circuit. The Enricher/Choke is compensating for the plugged jet making it run better.
Or something like that? I'm just pulling it out from the backside. ;)
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Doug - I had a similar day yesterday. Ran great till I stopped for gas. Then, started to run rough on the lower end. Wind it out for awhile, and it would run "better" - idle for awhile and the rough running comes back. Emptied the carb bowels, lots of little black specs. So - replaced the fuel line (just in case) but didn't think to check the float levels while I had the hose hooked up to drains so I'll do that tonight.
Basically, I'm figuring that 1) I have/had a stuck float due to crap in the fuel or fuel line deteriorating. The petcock tested OK yesterday (good thing) so I'm a little relieved about that anyway. 2) I figure some of the crap clogged a jet - I treated the tank with Techron - I'll let that sit and run it a little to see if I get lucky. Otherwise, I get to pull the carbs for the first time (I just purchased the Connie in March).
Oh Well - too hot to commute on it this week anyway and next week I'm traveling for work.
Good Luck
Mark
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One thing I have done to help narrow down the problem is use an IR temp gauge on the header pipes. I taped a dowell to the gauge so I will be holding the gauge exactly the same distance from the header.
Your ideas sound correct to me. I had a similar issue on a different bike and it turned out to be a slightly bent slide needle that did not allow the slide to move freely. Have you also changed the fuel filter? (I don't have a C10 - assuming they have one.)
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One thing I have done to help narrow down the problem is use an IR temp gauge on the header pipes. I taped a dowell to the gauge so I will be holding the gauge exactly the same distance from the header.
Your ideas sound correct to me. I had a similar issue on a different bike and it turned out to be a slightly bent slide needle that did not allow the slide to move freely. Have you also changed the fuel filter? (I don't have a C10 - assuming they have one.)
And I just happen to have a "Laser" type temp gauge. Totally forgot about it till you mentioned it. :-[ Our fuel filter is built into the Petcock.
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water in the tank.
add IsoHeet.
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I am betting on MOB's solution.
Had a guy on a ride earlier this year using a loaner bike. Ran it low on fuel and after he had switched to reserve it ran like crap. I asked the owner when he had last used reserve. NEVER ! Anyways he added a little dope and it straightened right out. That never works for me. I alwaysend up with 7 gallons of mower gas :(
Wayne
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I would assume water would show up in the draining of the fuel bowls but bad gas is a definite possibility.
Since you say it seems like fuel starvation maybe tank venting? You could pop the fill cover for a quick test. ( I would not do that with a full tank.
Also if you think fuel starvation how about the clear tubing on the carb drain nipple and open the drain valve and see if it sets to the right fuel bowl height. It probably is correct . You could use a long piece of clear tubing and as you lower the tubing (quickly) you can test how fast and how long it takes for the fuel to resume its proper gas level.
I assume you checked the air filter. You may well have to service the carbs. Do you put that 2 stroke oil in on every gas fill?
TCW3 I think it is . I have to other wise my carbs have to come back off to be cleaned. My bike sits for weeks at a time.
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Doug - here's something that happened to my bike at the national. VERY weird, and weird to diagnose, but I got it... Basically it would idle fine, and accellerated in first gear with LIGHT throttle fine till about 6k, then it would start missing. Second gear it would start missing at a lower rpm, and 3rd was lower yet. If I tried to use higher gears and just cruise, it had a miss. Let it idle, and it was fine. Of course I thought "bad plug" and / or "bad gas" and checked for both. Then I thought about the good idle, and knew it wouldn't idle well with a bad plug, bad fuel, or a vacuum leak. I figured that the carbs sucked trash into a main jet. Not likely, since I had just put them on 3 weeks before the trip, but hey sh*t happens. I pulled the carb tops, removed the slides, and fished a wire down through the needle jets to the bottom of the bowls. Problem solved! I'm not saying that's your problem, but use all the info you can to help diagnose. How's the idle? at what point does it start to act up? is it RPM or throttle sensitive? Post it up and we'll take a shot at it. Steve
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Thanks Steve. It seems to be throttle sensitive. Idle seems to be good but not perfect (I need to pay closer attention to it tonight). I was going to go out tonight after work (10pm) and make notes - higher RPM's better or worse. Gear changes have an effect? RPM range and response.
I think there's something in the carbs that shouldn't be. Ill post up tonight's ride report in the morning.
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Good luck Doug. Im pulling for you :rotflmao:
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Is it possible that one or more of the diaphragms are leaking and not lifting the needle out of the jet? Have you pulled the plugs since installing them to see if they are black (overly rich) or white "white" (overly lean) ? Or, one plug that looks different than the other three? Also, I know these coils are pretty dependable, but if you pull the plugs to check them, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check the resistance of each coil and to inspect the inside of the towers (what the spark plug slides into) to see if there is any burn-through or carbon tracking. All of this can be checked and eliminated in just a few minutes once the tank is off. Good luck.
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Good luck Doug. Im pulling for you :rotflmao:
She'll be all ready for ya Chris. ;)
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Is it possible that one or more of the diaphragms are leaking and not lifting the needle out of the jet? Have you pulled the plugs since installing them to see if they are black (overly rich) or white "white" (overly lean) ? Or, one plug that looks different than the other three? Also, I know these coils are pretty dependable, but if you pull the plugs to check them, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check the resistance of each coil and to inspect the inside of the towers (what the spark plug slides into) to see if there is any burn-through or carbon tracking. All of this can be checked and eliminated in just a few minutes once the tank is off. Good luck.
The old plugs that were installed :owhen this issue arose looked just like they should....a light even gray color (they were two seasons old. ). I installed a new set of Coil Sticks this past Wednesday. Air filter was cleaned and re-oiled. I have some Seafoam in the tank (less than a half tank) right now and will run that through the bike tonight when I get home. If this doesn't help then I'll pull the carbs and start playing.
I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to carbs.
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Last night I rode a 65 mile loop with some Seafoam in the tank (1/2 tank fuel, 1/3ish of a bottle of Seafoam). End result was "No change". What I noticed:
2nd-3rd & 4th gear running at 3K RPM was experiencing sporadic Bucking. It felt like it was out of fuel.
It was slow to respond to throttle input. Required much more throttle movement to get to speed.
The "Fluttering" feel (like it was running out of fuel) was present throughout the whole ride. It was worse during acceleration than once at desired speed.
At a stop with no throttle input (Idle) was smooth and dead on. As soon as the throttle was advanced the problem was there.
I know I'm horrible at descriptions and I apologize. The "Fluttering" sound is that of a V-Twin like the Ninja 650 or a Ducati.......you know? That V-Twin Fluttering sound in the exhaust. It's smooth but not right for an in-line 4. Does any of that make sense?
Well? A Doctor or an author I'll never be..........nor a Motorcycle mechanic :-[. Thanks for all input guys.
Just a side note for what its worth: I may be slow trying suggestions made here on the board. My wife and I work opposite shifts, the kids are home for the summer and we have a "Special Needs" child that requires 95% of you attention all the time. So summer time maintenance on the bike is no easy task.
Thanks for the ear. :thumbs:
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the fluttering you describe is a miss, and it sounds like the issue I had at the national. go back and re-read my description. a couple times if you need to. see if that fits. BTW lay off the seafoam. Have you drained the bowls into a glass container? if not, do that and let us know if theres water in it. Steve
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Will the addition of the sea foam make it difficult to tell if there is water in the fuel Steve? You know I need to pour some gas in a glass jar and add water. Let it set and then add a little SF and see what happens.
the fluttering you describe is a miss, and it sounds like the issue I had at the national. go back and re-read my description. a couple times if you need to. see if that fits. BTW lay off the seafoam. Have you drained the bowls into a glass container? if not, do that and let us know if theres water in it. Steve
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I had mine running great... til one day on the way home from work, it was like I lost 2 cylinders.. and reeked of raw gas.
No hydro, but turns out that the rubber tip on one of my float needles had 'decapitated' - assorted rubber bits floating in the gas I drained from the bowls, and the rest of the tip found upon disassembly.
Pulled the plugs, one looked particularly nasty... brushed 'em all but didn't replace.
Carb clean/rebuild kits... got a good synch on it... and it's running kinda crappy :( Kinda flat, more vibrations that it should have.
Well... in my haste, I neglected to tighten the block-side boots before synching. Tightened those up... i suspect may be a cause. Also spring for new plugs - need 'em or not, it's not a bad $10 to spend if you're goin in anyway. So once I get some time to pull the tank... I'll change plugs and re-synch.
Too darned hot to ride anyway :o
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Hey Dan we should try to hook up sometime. Your not THAT far away..........or me either for that matter. ;D I'm in Milwaukee.
OK. Today I was able to drain the float bowls. No water. Just beautiful golden GO-Juice. However, in the bottom of the jar there were about 6 to 10 tiny white specks of something. They don't glisten in the sun......not metal. Weird?
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Tomorrow I'll be brave and pull the carb tops off, remove the slides and go fishing. Worse I can do is screw something up. Then I can send them down to Steve. :rotflmao: :chugbeer:
(Thatsmeantt as a good thing)
I have a rally to attend July 19th-22nd. (Remember the Alphabet Road Rally.......thats where we have it.) Not too worried. I have a 2011 FZ1 with 240 miles on the clock to take ::) :hail:
Although I have to admit myself to the hospital afterwords for month of Physical Therapy ;D
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be careful when you put the slides back in. The MUST be fully seated in the circular grooves, or when you put the top on you'll pinch / cut / destroy the diaphram. HTH, Steve
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be careful when you put the slides back in. The MUST be fully seated in the circular grooves, or when you put the top on you'll pinch / cut / destroy the diaphram. HTH, Steve
:o Thanks for the heads up Steve. I know for you this is no big deal. For me, it's Trial by Fire ;D You'll be the first to know if I have an issue.
Many Thanks. ;)
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Air filter cleaned after the problem showed up, right?
My pickup coil/s went bad on my 87. The coils are an easy replacement. $120 DIY. There is also a gap spec for the coils and is an easy adjust if needed.
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Air filter cleaned after the problem showed up, right?
My pickup coil/s went bad on my 87. The coils are an easy replacement. $120 DIY. There is also a gap spec for the coils and is an easy adjust if needed.
Yep. Cleaned and re-oiled. New plugs and coil sticks.
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Pickup coils are different than coils or stics. These are the contactors or whatever that are located behind the timing cover and there are two of them with one wire running up under the seat/tank. Easy to replace. $120 total.
I believe these are the coils that tell the other coils when to fire when the engine timing mark/plate starts to pass them they are activated.
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My Connie is back on the road!!!!!! She seems to running like a champ. I'll find out for sure in the morning.
First off: Thanks Steve for your help. It was a piece of cake.
I took Steve's advice and ran a piece of Safety Wire down through the center of the carbs till it bottomed out in the float bowls.
Just remove the black Carb Top Cover.....(four screws). Careful, it's spring loaded. Remove the spring and carefully remove the Slide/Diaphragm assembly.......the main jet needle will be protruding from the bottom of the slide. I removed the jet needle from the slide and wiped it off. Ran the piece of Safety Wire down through the Main Jet opening till it touched the bottom of the float bowl. (I did that a couple times on each carb). Reinstall the slide assemble making sure it's properly seated. Drop the Main Jet Needle into the center of the Slide......Make sure the needle is not cockeyed, if it is, it's not in the center hole. Reinstall the spring assembly into the Slide. Find the nipple on the inside of the Top Cover and place the nipple inside the top of the spring, Slowly lower the carb Top Cover down over the Slide Diaphragm assembly and make sure the Top Cover seats in place. Reinstall the four screws. Be sure to drain the Float Bowls when your done. Three more times and you got it.
Now I'm sure I got all the Technical stuff wrong but once you see it you'll understand what's what..........the Shop Maintenance Manual is handy also ;).
OK, that was the hard part.
This is where I planted my size 12 in my backside.
The clamps on intake boots #2 & 3 were loose. I was able to get about six rotations of the clamp screws to get them tight.
So what really fixed the problem? I wish I knew for sure. I can say that it felt like it was sucking air giving it that "Miss", "Fluttering" sound/feel. I had experienced this before getting the foam piece placed right with Steve's 2 Min Mod.
No matter what. My Connie is ride-able again and I'm a HAPPY CAMPER!!!!! ;D
Thanks for all the post in this thread guys.
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;D ;D :thumbs: :chugbeer:
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Let me know how it turns out Chris. :thumbs:
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being that it was sudden onset, I'd say there was something in one of the main jets. That's how my bike did it too - there I was, doing roll-on races with Colin's zgrx and suddenly shoodaben didn't want to play anymore. :-[ Steve
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being that it was sudden onset, I'd say there was something in one of the main jets. That's how my bike did it too - there I was, doing roll-on races with Colin's zgrx and suddenly shoodaben didn't want to play anymore. :-[ Steve
:rotflmao:
And if that doesn't leave an empty feeling in your gut................. ;D
Thanks again Steve. That's a great, simple trick that works. Should get the Mods and make that a "Sticky". :thumbs:
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Now if only we could find a way to do the same thing with the pilot jets...
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Now if only we could find a way to do the same thing with the pilot jets...
Give Steve a week or two on it. I'm sure he'll come up with a trick. ;D
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OK - update on my issue - I've been traveling for w@rk the past week and a half so didn't have time to work on it.
I flushed the carb bowls, removed a few more flecks of "something", still wasn't running right. Went ahead and followed Steve's advice and pulled the slides/needles, poked around with a bit of wire and then used some "canned air" from my computer repair bag to blow down through the jet from the topside.
refilled everything with fresh fuel and went for a short (15mile) ride.
Good news is - everything seems to be back to normal! Pulls steady in all gears from 1k clear through to redline. OK - well -I didn't redline the top couple gears but 1-4 all went well.
So - I'm cautiously optimistic that the issue is resolved! :-*
This afternoon I drop the kid at camp for the week, and the wife is scheduled for all 2nd and 3rd shift this week so I'll actually be able to get some riding time in. - of course - I'm sure that means it'll rain all week...
thanks for all of the advice everyone!
seeya
Mark
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being that it was sudden onset, I'd say there was something in one of the main jets. That's how my bike did it too - there I was, doing roll-on races with Colin's zgrx and suddenly shoodaben didn't want to play anymore. :-[ Steve
Steve, do you still contend that the fuel filter in the tank is adequate for the job? I think it is about as good as the OEM petcock.
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Steve, do you still contend that the fuel filter in the tank is adequate for the job? I think it is about as good as the OEM petcock.
I'm not answering for Bubba, But I'll say the screen in the tank does it's job......don't forget, there is a hose between the petcock and the carbs.....and it's made from rubber that ages and degrades.... ::)
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And thats one thing I'm going to look at. Right now I'm at a Rally (Remember the Alphabet Road Rally? That's my back yard and where I'm at now. I was 10 miles out passing a slower car when in mid pass she started to act up again. Right now I'm waiting for it to cool down a bit before I start taking it apart. After doing what Steve recommend she ran super fine. Why all of the sudden it went south at 70 mph? Don't know. But the fuel line decaying could be the culprit. I'll let you know what I find.
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Well? I just performed "The Trick" again. This time the results were a failure. I'm really not in a position (Location) to pull the carbs and take them apart. At this point it looks like I'll sit in the A/C and read a book. Or , pull out early and limp her home.
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To jdm and tele - When my bike did it at the national the carbs had only been on for 3 weeks since I had completed a total cleaning and reassembly. Since the issue was a blocked main jet in my case, and since I know it didn't come through the fuel line, as such a large piece of trash would have held a needle valve off the seat and caused an overflowing carb, I'm sure my trash came from one of the vent tubes. all it takes is a bug looking for a new home, and spiders are bad at that sort of thing - Steve
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To jdm and tele - When my bike did it at the national the carbs had only been on for 3 weeks since I had completed a total cleaning and reassembly. Since the issue was a blocked main jet in my case, and since I know it didn't come through the fuel line, as such a large piece of trash would have held a needle valve off the seat and caused an overflowing carb, I'm sure my trash came from one of the vent tubes. all it takes is a bug looking for a new home, and spiders are bad at that sort of thing - Steve
That makes sense to me. I am sure spiders can make nests. I still say the filter is about as good as the OEM petcock. Thanks for the come back. JD (PS Steve if you got a hole in the diaphragm would it not give you similar symptoms?) I would like to thank you for the info you gave about a plugged main jet. It is good info and could save someone a lot of problems. I just hope I can remember it if it happen to me. Again Steve Thanks you are a good man.
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I spent my whole rally time diagnosing/ wrenching on the Connie ( Not bitching, it is what it is). Once I get back to a normal computer and not my iPhone I'll post what was done and what was found. I will say the the "Best Guess" was the fuel line. I'll be home Sunday evening. Right now she's running like a stripped assed ape!!!!!
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Jd, a hole in a diaphram would give the same symptoms. In fact, my very first inclination to pull the carb tops was because I wondered if, during all the high rpm runs we were doing, a spring bounced and got out of position and made a slide stick down. Understand my springs are cut and don't exert as much tension as stock springs do, so it's a possibility, though not a likely one. I was "running all the possibilities" if you know what I mean.
I also have a spider problem in my shop - the damm daddy longlegs are trying to takeover, so that's why i suspect it was a spider that got lodged in the main jet - Steve
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I've often wondered how trash gets by the screen that is in the gas tanks. I know it isn't a total filter, but should stop most debris. While your looking at the fuel hose for degregation, look at the petcock diaphram.
Explanation: I recently replaced the diaphram in mysons petcock. During the repair, we found that the rubber on the inside of the diaphram (gas side) was basically gone. What was there, was decomposed/grains of rubber.
So, possibly the problem people are having is the rubber from the diaphram is getting into the carbs.
But, I have another thought. Did you look at the fuel line to see if it was kinked?
When you've worked on the carbs etc, you've removed the tank. (and moved the fuel hose)
The fix you found may have been a kinked hose not a blocked jett etc.
The hose can be fine when the engine is at idle. But the kink can restrict the flow and cause insufficient fuel flow. Or, it can kink/close more as it heats up or vibrates. I ran into this problem while on a ride. On thattrip, rerouting the fuel line solved my problem.
Ride safe, Ted
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I've often wondered how trash gets by the screen that is in the gas tanks. I know it isn't a total filter, but should stop mose debris. While your looking at the fuel hose for degregation, look at the petcock diaphram.
Explanation: I recently replaced the diaphram in mysons petcock. During the repair, we found that the rubber on the inside of the diaphram (gas side) was basically gone. What was there, was decomposed/grains of rubber.
So, possibly the problem people are having is the rubber from the diaphram is getting into the carbs.
But, I have another thought. Did you look at the fuel line to see if it was kinked?
When you've worked on the carbs etc, you've removed the tank. (and moved the fuel hose)
The fix you found may have been a kinked hose not a blocked jett etc.
The hose can be fine when the engine is at idle. But the kink can restrict the flow and cause insufficient fuel flow. Or, it can kink/close more as it heats up or vibrates. I ran into this problem while on a ride. On thattrip, rerouting the fuel line solved my problem.
Ride safe, Ted
I would almost bet the petcock diaphram is no good with ethanol fuel. Does anyone know what the diaphram is made of so we can check to see if it is compatible with ethanol?
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I did check the diaphragm. It appeared to be prefect (The Petcock is only a year only....well?, "IN SERVICE" for a year) ;)
This junk was located in the #2 carb's float needle port...(Sorry, I don't know the technical name......my bad).
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj287/Rexrated/IMG_0065.jpg)
It was black and hard.
And then, the float needle fell from the float upon removing the float from the bowl. These dark speckles came off the needle it self.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj287/Rexrated/IMG_0066.jpg)
I took a Q-Tip and soaked it with fuel, held it with a pair of long skinny needle nose pliers and took a swab of the inside of the fuel line. The Q-Tip came out with black smudges all over it. With that info we concluded the fuel line was decaying inside and allowing this debris into the carbs.
The fuel line was replaced and a "In Line" fuel filter added. Carbs were cleaned and reassembled. She be running good now.................no? 8) ;D
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Yup. That's why I just use the plastic stuff now - well one of the reasons. I just don't believe the reinforced automotive fuel line is good stuff to use. Kinks too easily for one. Too hard to look at and tell it's condition for another. I tried the stuff from Murphs (Motion Pro) and it got hard and kinked after a couple years too, so I got the cheap stuff at CycleGear and replaced it. Half the price and lots more of it. I'll see how it holds up in comparison.